Defending against 4-2-3-1

[TheCaswell]

Ladies and Gents, 

I'm playing as a recently promoted Leeds United. Currently stewing on a night shift at work after this evenings few games played. 

 

Now I'm aware that me bringing in 7 players (depth & prem worthy transfers for the aging players) has had an effect on my consistency and it'll take a few months for the squad to settle.

 

However.... 

I'm currently getting turned over by the top 10 teams who are all playing the attacking

4-2-3-1..

 

I've tried adjusting mentality to cautious as well as switching to a counter attacking tactic I had some success with last year in the championship... 

 

Any advice would be great. 

 

Traditionally I line up as a

 

4-2-3-1 and focus on short high temp passing

What do I need to do differently? I appreciate its a learning curve team wise... And even a few months in I'm sitting lower mid table with a healthy ish point buffer. I just hate getting beat badly 😂

If anyone could suggest a tactic or advice it'd be awesome 

[Experienced Defender]

7 minutes ago, TheCaswell said:

Traditionally I line up as a

 

4-2-3-1 and focus on short high temp passing

We need to see the whole tactic, ideally via a screenshot of it.

[TheCaswell]

[TheCaswell]

14 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

We need to see the whole tactic, ideally via a screenshot of it.

ive uploaded one. Any help greatfully recieved ive struggled to commit to a tactic since promotion. Suddenly im a small fish in a big pond and can no longer pretty football my way to success without a few seasons of transfers

[GianniM]

The main issue will be a lack of a holding midfielder and thus a gap between your midfield and defense which those three attacking opposition midfielders can exploit. The BWM and AP will both leave their positions and move forward. In defense the BWM will press and the AP just doesn't have too many defensive tasks, especially on attacking duty. You have a lot of attack duties by the way, especially taking into account your formation and your position as a newly promoted team.

I played this formation as well in the Spanish second tier, but when I got promoted I switched to 4-1-4-1 DM wide which is essentially the same, but just replaces your AMC with a DMC to be more defensively stable. 

Also as a recently promotes side you're probably just not good enough to play a possession game in the Premier League. Try a more counter-attacking approach. 

I can also see some contradictory TIs, for example play out of defense combined with counter. The first is possession-oriented, the latter is for a counter-attacking style. You ask your defenders to contribute to the build-up with short passes, but they will be unable to because your midfield and attack have ran forward as soon as you gained possession due to the counter TI. 
Another example is shorter passing vs pass into space. Shorter passing again suits a possession style where you want short passes played into their feet, pass into space is more counter-oriented, getting longer balls in front of quick players. At the moment you're telling your players to do both, which means they have to decide for themselves in the heat of the moment which option to take. You should make it easier for them and make that decision yourself based on the style of football you want to play - and taking into account the qualities of your players. 

One last thing a high defense line combined with tight marking and get stuck in is very dangerous, especially if your defenders aren't 16 in positioning, decisions, pace and acceleration. They will never be able to catch up with the attacker anymore if they get passed. And pressing and tight marking again are two opposites. 

Edited June 23, 2020 by GianniM

[Experienced Defender]

18 minutes ago, GianniM said:

The main issue will be a lack of a holding midfielder and thus a gap between your midfield and defense

Yes, this is the most obvious issue in your tactic. The 4231 is a very tricky formation and it's no wonder that most people struggle to set it up properly. The 2 CMs are key in this kind of system. Specifically in a 4231, at least one of them needs to be played in a holding role (and in some cases even both can be holders). But under no circumstances should either of them be played on an attack duty. Because the formation is not just top-heavy but also lacks a DM, which means the 2 CMs must be both defensively reliable players and played in roles that are defensively responsible enough. 

15 hours ago, TheCaswell said:

If anyone could suggest a tactic or advice it'd be awesome

I first have to ask you 2 questions:

1. What style of football are you looking to play with this team?

2. Do you insist on the 4231 formation or it could be something else?

[TheCaswell]

10 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

so fortunately ive held on to Kalvin Phillips. At the moment he is the most suitable candidate for a holding midfielder aside from a young italian Pogeba from Milan. I've been trying to tweek it based on the feedback from the Assistant Manager after games but i think i just need to accept that as a freshly promoted side its going to be impossible to continue that attacking short passing game that i had success with in the championship.

 

1. What style of football are you looking to play with this team?

it needed to be attacking to forfill the board expectations but im going to go out on a limb and say that remaining in the premier league is a more important criteria

2. Do you insist on the 4231 formation or it could be something else?

no it dosnt need to be. Ive Costa, Bamba & a freshly signed Pedrinho who are comfortable of playing wide attacking positions.  Additionally i picked up a cheap TM support in case in a bid to get ahead of the curve if i faced difficulty and needed to change perspectives

Originally i brought Pedrinho in to fill the AMC role but hes performing better out wide. I have a good midfield depth so a formation change is manageable

 

Edited June 23, 2020 by TheCaswell

[TheCaswell]

based on some of the feedback above

• ive pulled in the defensive line as well as the line of engagement so that we are more compact.
• added a holding midfield player as well as a defensive midfielder. My wide men are currently being coached towards the inside wingers role.

in terms of mentality i switched to cautious and only went to positive for small periods. Should i be looking to bring on a second defensive Mid if the opposition switches to "very attacking"... Grealish was phenomenal for Villa and despite leading 2 nil i managed to walk away with a 3-2 victory

Edited June 23, 2020 by TheCaswell

[nico_france]

Hi mate

I'm currently playing with your 4-2-3-1 tactical set up,can't post any screens atm

Kind of bored with 4-3-3 and really like to play with a #10

4-2-3-1 can be lethal, but your pairing in the midfield is your key to success

My pairing in the midfield is different than yours, i have one Axial CM with defense duty, who won't push forward and 1 Box to Box midfielder

This set up provides me a good cover, these 2 guys in the midfield really need to get huge physical attributes in order to be the engine  of your team

And most of all, your frontline should be shining

Btw i'm starting my games with an attacking mentality, switching when needed

Managing in France atm, top of the league and unbeaten, and i'm not PSG

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, TheCaswell said:

've been trying to tweek it based on the feedback from the Assistant Manager

Do not follow AssMan's suggestions, because they can be misleading. You may take a look at what he says, but adopt it only if it clearly makes sense (which is not often the case). 

 

29 minutes ago, TheCaswell said:

2 DLPs make no sense in my book. In fact, 2 playmakers so close too each other are usually not a good idea in any combination, much less when you play them in literally the same role. 

With 2 inward-oriented wide forwards and 2 fairly conservative fullback roles behind them + narrower attacking width, you are depriving your attacking play of width a bit too much (along with the lack of support in the final third). Players always need to have viable passing options. Think about that.

When it comes to roles and duties, think how you could/should use them in order for your players to create space for one another and then use that space, while of course paying due attention to defensive solidity and protection.

When it comes to instructions, try to keep them as simple (and few) as possible. 

[TheCaswell]

This is super frustrating. I'd switched Kalvin to CM on defend but perhaps that was an in match before work... 

 

So a box to box and deep play maker might work? Then switch them to a defend deep playmaker if I'm facing a far superior team? 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, TheCaswell said:

This is super frustrating. I'd switched Kalvin to CM on defend but perhaps that was an in match before work... 

 

So a box to box and deep play maker might work?

Which formation do your questions relate to, 4231 or 4123 wide?

[TheCaswell]

The central midfield role pairing. 

My wide men are pretty fluid in terms of role suitability. 

 

I'm guessing that a 4123 will be harder to break down against stronger teams

[Experienced Defender]

40 minutes ago, TheCaswell said:

The central midfield role pairing

Okay, but in which formation? Because different principles apply to the (optimally balanced) 4123 and (top heavy) 4231. 

 

41 minutes ago, TheCaswell said:

My wide men are pretty fluid in terms of role suitability

How do you judge role suitability (via player attributes or the green circle suggested by the game)? 

 

43 minutes ago, TheCaswell said:

I'm guessing that a 4123 will be harder to break down against stronger teams

It does not depend solely on the formation. There are a number of factors that impact defensive solidity. 

[TheCaswell]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, but in which formation? Because different principles apply to the (optimally balanced) 4123 and (top heavy) 4231.

In all honesty I thought I had it nailed but seems to just be first season success. Both formations guidance would be helpful. I guess the 4-1-2-3 initially. 

 

How do you judge role suitability (via player attributes or the green circle suggested by the game)?

A combo of the two. I get that the green circle is familiarity & its also based on attributes

 

[Experienced Defender]

20 hours ago, TheCaswell said:

A combo of the two. I get that the green circle is familiarity & its also based on attributes

Look primarily at attributes. 

 

20 hours ago, TheCaswell said:

Both formations guidance would be helpful. I guess the 4-1-2-3 initially

Speaking of the midfield trio in a 4123 wide, the most common principle is to have one holder (in DM position), one covering midfielder and one runner. One of this can be a creator in addition (usually a playmaker).

Now let me give you a couple of examples so that you could understand what I mean:

BWMsu       CMat

DMde

In this example DM is the holder, BWM is the covering midfielder and CM on attack duty is the runner. As you can see, here we do not use a creator among the midfield three.

Now an example involving a creator:

DLPsu     CMat

DMde

Simply, the BWM is replaced by a DLP, so we now have both the covering midfielder and creator in one single role. The other 2 are the same as in the first example.

A third example could be this:

CAR     MEZat

DLPde

Here our holding midfielder is at the same time a creator (DLP), the carrilero is the covering midfielder whereas the mezzala is the runner (and a roaming and creative one at that).

Of course, there are other possible setups, but those sketched out above should hopefully help you understand some basic principles.

NOTE: None of these will work if the rest of your setup is not designed properly, so you need to pay attention to everything. Balance is key.

[TheCaswell]

6 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Look primarily at attributes. 

 

Speaking of the midfield trio in a 4123 wide, the most common principle is to have one holder (in DM position), one covering midfielder and one runner. One of this can be a creator in addition (usually a playmaker).

Now let me give you a couple of examples so that you could understand what I mean:

BWMsu       CMat

DMde

In this example DM is the holder, BWM is the covering midfielder and CM on attack duty is the runner. As you can see, here we do not use a creator among the midfield three.

Now an example involving a creator:

DLPsu     CMat

DMde

Simply, the BWM is replaced by a DLP, so we now have both the covering midfielder and creator in one single role. The other 2 are the same as in the first example.

A third example could be this:

CAR     MEZat

DLPde

Here our holding midfielder is at the same time a creator (DLP), the carrilero is the covering midfielder whereas the mezzala is the runner (and a roaming and creative one at that).

Of course, there are other possible setups, but those sketched out above should hopefully help you understand some basic principles.

NOTE: None of these will work if the rest of your setup is not designed properly, so you need to pay attention to everything. Balance is key.

Thanks for that. It's slowly getting there.

 

Ive switched to include a DM defending but was unsure on the midfield in front of him.

I've not played FM since FM 18 so it's somewhat of a learning curve again. 

 

It seems to be the Cm Att I've been missing to link up the play.

 

Cheers again I'll post an update in a few weeks if I manage to survive relegation (and the subsequent sacking lol)