Football Manager 2020 January & February Transfer Updates Feedback Thread

[Kodiak]

26 minutes ago, FrazT said:

@Kodiak  It is acknowledged that you are frustrated and that is perfectly understandable.  Please, however, do not bring personal digs at the developers into your feedback.

Looking at the Data Issues thread that you posted in, it may be that there is a shortage of researchers for that country  and that does make keeping the data updated very difficult.  Perhaps you could offer to assist since you clearly feel very passionately about the accuracy of the information?

Thank you for your answer. Since I use a translator instead of English, there are many parts that do not fit grammatically and in sentences. Please at least provide us with the form and show us where to submit it. The problem with data threads is that they're just asking you to provide them, and there's no such thing as a form. So I leave the required unique number, contents to modify, and questions, but there is no answer. You say it's a formality that the Eye Research Institute sees it and delivers it, but it's frustrating to see that the same problem repeats every year.  There are friends who are not perfect every year, but passionately producing rosters based on data. Rather, friends here want the roaster to come out. Since football manager is the best in soccer simulation game, I think I survived until now. Of course, I also think external expansion such as Google Steadia, Touch, and mobile games is also important. But the eyes of users are getting bigger and more and more affectionate towards you.I'm sorry. I don't know if it'll be delivered well, but I hope we can get it together in quality. P.S. Please let me know if there is any form provision or communicable research. Whether you succeed or fail, you'd better give it a try.

[themadsheep2001]

Just now, Gegenklaus said:

There is plenty of constructive feedback. Go look at the bug forums. Lots of players are putting in a ton of work to post bug reports and suggestions. Yet we haven't seen any sign of a fix to some major problems. Of course people need to vent that off. They are passionate about the game. And it's okay in my opinion.

Everyone is passionate, that's not an excuse for some of the language and vitriol on here though. And then when the same people ask why some Devs spend less time on here, you've got to put the two together

[janrzm]

Outside of the ME there also seems to be an enormous amount of frustration about reported bugs not being addressed. In order to gain some balance and perspective can someone from SI take the time to list some of the bugs reported by members of this forum that have actually been dealt with. 

[Gegenklaus]

1 minute ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Everyone is passionate, that's not an excuse for some of the language and vitriol on here though. And then when the same people ask why some Devs spend less time on here, you've got to put the two together

Of course. You should be civil about it. All I want to know is their plans to update the match engine before Football Manager 2021 or are we left with this? Am I entitled to an answer; NOPE. But I am asking anyway because I care about the game.

[ben carter]

Guessing that's that for the ME but a major gripe I've run into is teams just passing the ball across their defence for the majority of the game. Even if I happen to be a goal or two up the opposition just seem content to rack up passes amongst their back four.

These are fairly common occurrences for me (playing as RB Leipzig)

Even going full on Gegenpress my players rarely force a tackle or mistake for strings and strings of passes.

 

 

Edited March 6, 2020 by ben carter
Image size

[themadsheep2001]

1 minute ago, Gegenklaus said:

Of course. You should be civil about it. All I want to know is their plans to update the match engine before Football Manager 2021 or are we left with this? Am I entitled to an answer; NOPE. But I am asking anyway because I care about the game.

And that's absolutely fine. Civility towards each other and SI staff is all we ask for. More communication is key, but you've got to create an environment that encourages that. I've been around here for a long time, and while it's not unique to this forum, and it's not the worst place by any means, that environment has slipped away in the last few years, and everyone has to take a bit of personal responsibility in trying to bring that back, because we're all presumably here for the same reason

[alian62]

50 minutes ago, davehanson said:

The issue with this is that if people are upset about the state of the game there is a fair chance they won't buy the nest version. If enough people don't buy the next version of the game then there won't be subsequent versions of the game.

I think people are being realistic. For me, I would like to see a ME that represents, as close as possible, real life football. For me this ME is as far away from that as I have ever seen in a FM/CM game. I'm not asking for it to be perfect, you are correct there is no such thing, not just in games, but in the majority of 'entertainment'. Things can always be better and we should hope that SI continue to strive for that.  Once you stop and think you have something perfect then you are in trouble.

What will kill the series though is, as others have mentioned, the lack of honesty regarding how SI themselves view this years game. We have had, as far as I know, little to no communication on if they are done with this years ME. Given the feedback on the game that is unacceptable. And I am not just talking about feedback here. The mods here and SI themselves can say all they want about this forum being a minority but all the other forums I go on people are saying the same thing. The user score of a respected gaming site has this years FM as the lowest ever. That's not critics reviews that's people that have bought the game. The same people that SI hope will buy the game next year.

Some people will, as you have put it, take it on the chin and hope next years version is better. Others won't buy again. But I really hope that SI don't think like you 'oh well, it happens' otherwise it is all over for the series.

Don't see how you say we are not entitled to this . Did you get the game free or something because I paid for mine under the assumption of the headlines that said match experience in Football Manager the best looking in the series and this year is no different with a renewed effort to introduce a range of graphical improvements that will make the match look more realistic than ever in FM20.

Sorry but that isn't true . If I paid money then I'm entitled to what it is promoting surely ?

[Pasonen]

1 minute ago, ben carter said:

Guessing that's that for the ME but a major gripe I've run into is teams just passing the ball across their defence for the majority of the game. Even if I happen to be a goal or two up the opposition just seem content to rack up passes amongst their back four.

These are fairly common occurrences for me (playing as RB Leipzig)

Even going full on Gegenpress my players rarely force a tackle or mistake for strings and strings of passes.

 

 

I think this is because dc's dont go for pinpointed passes for the st's anymore. And of course because this is just one aspect of the games pressing cant be made better because it would  be even more op style of play then.

These images made me so sad.. so close but so far to reach balance.. :/

[janrzm]

14 minutes ago, prot651 said:

match experience in Football Manager the best looking in the series and this year is no different with a renewed effort to introduce a range of graphical improvements that will make the match look more realistic than ever in FM20.

That statement is a stretch however you try to interpret it and yet any Google search for FM20 will bring up that Snippet under the www.footballmanager.com Header Tag. To be fair, It's grossly misleading. That said, many like myself pre-ordered the game in the knowledge that its "graphically hamstrung", I just expected a better ME , less bugs on release and not to be in a position where new bugs are actually introduced with patches. 

There is only one way I can do anything about this and its not to put myself in that position again but to review the game when its as close to complete as the developers will get it in any given year, March.

Edited March 6, 2020 by janrzm

[FranGELP22]

i don't know if i have found an important bug or it's me doing something wrong but i can't make an enquiry for a player, i go to the any player profile and the from transfer the option to make an enquiry it dosen't appear

[Gegenklaus]

2 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

And that's absolutely fine. Civility towards each other and SI staff is all we ask for. More communication is key, but you've got to create an environment that encourages that. I've been around here for a long time, and while it's not unique to this forum, and it's not the worst place by any means, that environment has slipped away in the last few years, and everyone has to take a bit of personal responsibility in trying to bring that back, because we're all presumably here for the same reason

Maybe thats the because the last few additions of FM has been a let down to a lot of players. Promising stuff it didnt deliver on. That has consequences. I don't find these forums so bad. Yes, we have lost some great minds, Herne to name one, but forums not being the forums it used to be s just an example of time and change. The discussion of the game has been spread out to the other platforms.

It's been talked about that their used to be a lot of great threads in the tactics forum. People replicating real life tactics and so on. Those post has been dwindling and I think it's mainly because of the quality of the games being released. 

On the other hand I see more people here being constructive and very civil when it comes to the feedback. Way more than other gamer. those people saying you aren't entitled to anything after you bought the game looks at it all wrong. People venting at least puts up a sigb saying "YO, SI, the game has major problems", instead of those few users that keeps on saying "after several tactical tweaking I experience a great match engine", "it must be your tactic, mate" or "try harder".

And I know the quality of a game is to some extend a subjective oppinion.

Edited March 6, 2020 by Gegenklaus

[janrzm]

17 minutes ago, FranGELP22 said:

i don't know if i have found an important bug or it's me doing something wrong but i can't make an enquiry for a player, i go to the any player profile and the from transfer the option to make an enquiry it dosen't appear

I just set up two games quickly, 1st window off, can't make the enquiry as expected. 1st window open and I can make the enquiry. So I don't see a bug so far.

Obviously, there could be other mitigating factors. If you still feel its a bug, raise it in the appropriate thread.

Edited March 6, 2020 by janrzm

[duesouth]

8 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

I think that users now deserve some form of statement about the state of the match engine, why there have been no changes, and what is being done about it for the future.

This is a game we pay for, and we have not received the product we expect this year. Everything is really nice except the most critical part of the game, the actual football. To have no update of the ME in the post transfer window patch is new to me. It either suggests SI are completely satisfied with their engine (Which would be extremely worrying) or they can't fix it. I would like to know which. I think we all deserve some information at this point. I have never known the interaction between devs and users of FM be so poor as right now. It feels like we are going the way of codemasters. Acknowledging bugs, but never actually fixing them and not telling you why. This alienates your fanbase, and that is bad for everyone. 

I know this is sounding uber critical and perhaps harsh. I apologise for that. But I feel this needs to be addressed and it is important feedback. 

Superb post - 100% agree.

Just reading through the last 3/4 pages post-update.  It seems that as the ME hasn't been addressed again in this patch, people are assuming that's it - but we don't know for sure.  I'm personally thinking they might well be still working on one last attempt to fix the ME - but again I don't know for sure.  SI have clearly taken a lot of heat.  That could have been mitigated by a short statement with the 20.4.0 release notes.  Either:

As a company with extremely high standards, SI acknowledge that the ME is not up to those standards.  Rather than rush an unfinished patch with this database update, we have elected to continue to work on improvements to the ME and hope to have something tested and released by the end of March.  We do understand the frustration with the ME and our team are working tirelessly to improve the product.  We would appreciate your patience while we continue our work and testing.  As ever, thank you for supporting the series and your obvious passion for our product.

Or:

With the release of 20.4.0 this is, outside of any hot fixes required for game breaking issues, the last upgrade to either the FM20 database or ME.  While we have taken on board your comments and frustrations with the FM20 ME, we feel with the previous release it is a finished product we are happy with and meets our internally high standards.  Our development team will now switch focus to FM21 - a product which we are excited to develop and eventually share with our passionate and loyal fanbase.  We will of course continue to read feedback on the FM20 ME, and these voices will be heard as we start FM21 planning and development.  As ever, thank you for supporting the series and your obvious passion for our product.

 

I don't really understand how complex the ME is - but I do understand it's not easy, as I would understand it's complex to be the Governor of the Bank of England!  However, customer service is easy - be up front and open with your customers.  If the customer is seeing an issue (although not easy to see a consensus at times in this thread - it is very clear the vast majority don't think this ME is good enough) face up to it and then fix it; if you don't think it's a problem, say why you don't; if you can't fix it - tell us and you might have to offer say 15% off FM21 rather than 10% for pre-release orders.

Reading between the lines almost, I do get a sense of high standards within SI Towers - but that does need to be communicated way better with the fanbase.  I'm sure it's not easy taking the heat at times - but with excellent customer service, that would be better.

[FranGELP22]

6 minutes ago, janrzm said:

I just set up two games quickly, 1st window off, can't make the enquiry as expected. 1st window open and I can make the enquiry. So I don't see a bug so far.

Obviously, there could be other mitigating factors. If you still feel its a bug, raise it in the appropriate thread.

Yeah i figured out, that i disabled the 1st transfer window that may be why i can't make an enquiry, thank you for answering.

[Tyburn]

1 hour ago, bcereus said:

It's so funny that @Tyburn Snipes at users here with impunity for their opinions but I've had my post deleted for replying to someone (actually making a good point with no abuse or inappropriate comment) saying anyone who bought the game is entitled to nothing. But just because his Snipes are pro SI his posts stay up.

@themadsheep2001 I suppose this is not double standards. Bet you won't do anything about his posts.

 

Not looking for a fight, but just to clarify, I’ve had a few posts removed. I’ve also had plenty of wraps around the knuckles recently. By PM as well as on the thread.

Its not about being pro SI. It’s about exactly what has been said.

I may push it close to the wire. But it’s never personal. I may disagree with an opinion. But not the persons character.

Unlike some of the personal attacks I’ve faced recently, even if they are probably warranted.

Anyway, back on topic, has anyone noticed if matchday lighting is any brighter? Have the staff search attributes been re added back into the drop down menu?

 

[DavyDepuydt1]

I'm also interested in how the matchday lighting is now... since I'm playing FMT I'll have to wait a few more days to see it myself

[d d]

Everything feels a lot faster since the Winter Update

.

[sporadicsmiles]

2 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Who says nothing has been done?  If you have an issue use the report button, otherwise please keep your passive aggressive digs to yourself thanks. 

@sporadicsmiles you raise points about the communication, and I'd definitely say more communication would be good, but it goes both ways. The state of the forum from day one has been pretty poor, and given Devs have no obligation to come to this parts, most are unlikely to want to stick their heads in here as part of the busy day when then are likely to get this flak. Neil does get in here as much as he can, that being said. The other thing would be to remember that they can't always give all the answers, but it is something they are working on

It should also be noted that the 3rd ME update was essentially released early. 

 

 

I agree with you entirely, about the fact these forums have become more poisonous. I wouldn't want to comment here often either. And it isnt really what I meant either. The fact that this thread is every year a torrent of.... you know what means I dont really expect much communication here. This does make me sad, because you are right that both sides are driving each other apart. I would hate to be a mod here.

Nor really do I expect answers, detailed descriptions of what is happening, a schedule. This isn't feasible. And i will say generally the entire dev team does a wonderful job at ironing out the kinks each year. I have always had faith in the fact that come march we have a really nice game.

This is the first year where I find this not to be the case. And I'm of course disappointed in that. The last ME update did fix issues, but created new ones. I dont expect or demand patches or fixes. I can play the game, it is just, well, flawed. Which is why it would be good to even have a locked post which just updates us a little. 

I won't say anymore on this anyway. My two cents are given, and I will go back to enjoying the game as best I can. 

[themadsheep2001]

5 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

I agree with you entirely, about the fact these forums have become more poisonous. I wouldn't want to comment here often either. And it isnt really what I meant either. The fact that this thread is every year a torrent of.... you know what means I dont really expect much communication here. This does make me sad, because you are right that both sides are driving each other apart. I would hate to be a mod here.

Nor really do I expect answers, detailed descriptions of what is happening, a schedule. This isn't feasible. And i will say generally the entire dev team does a wonderful job at ironing out the kinks each year. I have always had faith in the fact that come march we have a really nice game.

This is the first year where I find this not to be the case. And I'm of course disappointed in that. The last ME update did fix issues, but created new ones. I dont expect or demand patches or fixes. I can play the game, it is just, well, flawed. Which is why it would be good to even have a locked post which just updates us a little. 

I won't say anymore on this anyway. My two cents are given, and I will go back to enjoying the game as best I can. 

I very much like the idea of a locked update post, think more communication is always good where they can. Especially something on the medium to long term. Think your post will provide them some good food for thought over the summer

[ferrarinseb]

Open a Locked thread updated by SI Devs which has list of issues fixed in their POV and Possibly Issues they feel are still there after release of game and subsequent Patches. This will give Players to see what they fixed and focus on what has to be fixed, What ever the view point from SI (be it can be fixed or might not be possible for a fix in the time frame) just tell it as it is.  

[Weller1980]

2 hours ago, ben carter said:

Guessing that's that for the ME but a major gripe I've run into is teams just passing the ball across their defence for the majority of the game. Even if I happen to be a goal or two up the opposition just seem content to rack up passes amongst their back four.

These are fairly common occurrences for me (playing as RB Leipzig)

Even going full on Gegenpress my players rarely force a tackle or mistake for strings and strings of passes.

 

 

These pics perfectly illustrate the lack of forward passes in the final 1/3 no matter what tactics you choose. Its such a bad ME.

[Connor]

Its a simple question at this stage of whether there will be a further match engine update, that will ensure there is some transparency, surely it's one of the below:

a) a definite update to the match engine will be done

b) they are attempting to provide an updated match engine (but cannot guarentee it) 

c) that's it for this version and no further updates to the match engine

I think that would help maintain a good dialogue with your customers, whilst also keeping people informed enough to help retain custom of those who feel let down.

Personally, I am enjoying the game and feel SI are doing their best to address what they can, but they need to be more forthcoming with info where possible, which I believe has already been recognised as being looked at.

[FMLegend1983]

2 hours ago, Gegenklaus said:

Maybe thats the because the last few additions of FM has been a let down to a lot of players. Promising stuff it didnt deliver on. That has consequences. I don't find these forums so bad. Yes, we have lost some great minds, Herne to name one, but forums not being the forums it used to be s just an example of time and change. The discussion of the game has been spread out to the other platforms.

It's been talked about that their used to be a lot of great threads in the tactics forum. People replicating real life tactics and so on. Those post has been dwindling and I think it's mainly because of the quality of the games being released. 

On the other hand I see more people here being constructive and very civil when it comes to the feedback. Way more than other gamer. those people saying you aren't entitled to anything after you bought the game looks at it all wrong. People venting at least puts up a sigb saying "YO, SI, the game has major problems", instead of those few users that keeps on saying "after several tactical tweaking I experience a great match engine", "it must be your tactic, mate" or "try harder".

And I know the quality of a game is to some extend a subjective oppinion.

Don't forget Dagenham Dave 

[akinozcan]

It should be very easy to explain whether there will be a new match engine update. At least I think we deserve it.

[FMLegend1983]

12 hours ago, Old Joe Clarke said:

Who? now are you questioning freedom of ideas and reply?

He meant Tyburn

[rp1966]

16 minutes ago, Weller1980 said:

These pics perfectly illustrate the lack of forward passes in the final 1/3 no matter what tactics you choose. Its such a bad ME.

The thing that is really disappointing about those screenshots is that it suggests that all teams are taking virtually the same approach. So, as with player attributes, does that mean manager attributes are being smothered by a bias in the ME towards roles?

We all know in IRL there are plenty of managers who have an ethos of always trying to play an attacking game - even when it's not in their interest (hello Eddie Howe!) - it's Ok for the game's code to decide that this kind of approach is going to be  effective against your formation, but manager's preferred tactics, the type of player available or fan pressure at home matches should be causing at least some teams to take a more positive approach even when they are not the favourites.

Edited March 6, 2020 by rp1966

[MrPompey]

maybe I missed something but are this screenshots balanced with the tactical approach used and opposition played against?

[pheelf]

I understand that people are frustrated as I have too felt that way about FM but I certainly didn't come on here and start abusing and berating people because of my own personal feelings toward the game.

People who take their spare time to provide constructive feedback and try to help SI by posting bugs are great and a valued part of this community but just because you post an issue doesn't mean that it's going to be fixed as a priority or even within a cycle of a release. Some issues are just too deep and complex to have a quick fix, striker movement being an example of such an issue. SI have possibly come to the conclusion that they can't make it any better so rather than attempting to do so and throwing the balance of the ME off completely they have left it for the next release when they will have more time to test their attempted solutions.

I also think that while user feedback can be useful it should be supplemented with getting advice from actual coaches and people with expertise in the area if seeking to create a realistic simulation is the objective. I don't think people posting 'ME is broken' is remotely helpful to SI even though it is technically feedback.

The point was raised that people are reluctant to post in here with negative feedback through fear of ridicule. I actually think the opposite has been shown to be true. Anytime somebody posts that they are happy with the ME they are either ignored or are often called out to explain or justify their position. At best, players with positive feedback are seen as naive and at worst seen as completely deluded.

This mode of thinking is especially prominent among the more experienced players of the series who think that somehow their feedback is more valuable than anybody else's. It comes across as elitist with anybody who doesn't agree with the way the game is being framed seen as the minority who should just be quiet so that the more knowledgeable players can continue to dominate the discussion. I'd be willing to wager that a lot of the so called 'football experts' on here have an over-inflated view of how much they understand football.

For e.g. the whole lack of central play mantra which is often wheeled out which seems to ignore the fact that the central areas are the easiest areas to defend. In previous games (FM17 being a prime example) you could exploit the central areas because the opposition wouldn't defend properly. Yes, it may have been more fun to play the game seeing your team shredding teams through the middle but that doesn't make it a better representation of real football. 

What makes it more bizarre for me is that I play a flat 4-4-2 which is definitely not designed to exploit central play and I see plenty of central play (through passes, movement into the channels, balls over the top). I'm just theorizing but maybe what is being missed is that in order to have good central play your players need to have space and the only way that is going to happen is by having good width and depth to your attacks. 

The games fan base aren't being given much credit, very few are going to waste their precious time playing a game which they don't enjoy. If the game was as bad as being presented here then that would be reflected in sales and concurrent players on the game and it isn't.  

There are issues in FM20 but show me a version when that hasn't been the case? You pay your money you take a chance. No guarantee is given that you will enjoy any form of entertainment so to expect that is setting yourself up for disappointment. There is nothing whatsoever compelling anybody to buy the game and making an unwise purchase of FM has even less justification considering you can play a demo with a working ME for free. If I go to watch a game and my team performs poorly and loses does that entitle me to a refund because I didn't enjoy the game?...Of course not.

Edited March 6, 2020 by pheelf

[Tyburn]

I didn't have to do this, so don't start shooting me.

Someone asked to see the stats of my lone ST and the tactic I've been using recently.

The only players in my tactic that have any PI's are my fullbacks as shown, and the goalkeeper has take more risks added. Other than that they are just playing their roles, and my 2 CM's being on auto give pure flexibilty to whatever mentality I choose. The CDM is also completely blank for PI's so that I can just use traits. The front 3 have inbuilt PI's but they are fine for what I want to achieve. I start ALL games on cautious (it's in MY mentality, haha, not that you'd know it) but most often, especially against weaker teams (which as you'll notice by my team are nearly all of them) I'll switch to positive. I make use of shouts throughout the match.

I can't post any other stats for percentages from last season, goals from FK's, corners etc as i'm pre season. I can't find that data. But i will say that with this set up I wasn't noticing that all i scored, or conceded came from set pieces. Far from it. I repeat, with this tactic I do NOT see an abundance of set piece goals. Obviously i score a few and I score a fair few goals from the back post also. Tomberli my RW newgen is brilliant in the air so it stands to reason I would. I score a variety of goals with this set up. On the counter, crosses, even the occasional through ball from the edge of the box. Pellegri had a fair few pens in the season just gone, but nothing totally crazy. He was by far my biggest goal threat as you can see from his stats.

I had him at Napoli as well in this journeyman save. I've worked my way up the ladder from Nancy in Ligue2 but I started using this tactic when at Napoli in the 2024/25 season. I would imagine it'll work for any team, but it's more about how it gets the ME to respond in a more pleasing manner. It's just one tactic. One way of playing. I've had other tactics that worked in a balanced way too, but this is what I've settled on for the moment. I'm sure you'll point out to me that some of my instructions are obviously the only way to get the ME playing well, but I feel that actually other variety's will work too, and when has FM NOT had ways of playing that looked better than others?

Overall the tactic plays well. I won't say it's devoid of some of the issues people have raised, but it's definately not ruining my enjoyment of the game or the ME. It feels balanced.

I'm not going to post it here, but if anyone is interested I will share the tactic via PM. It's taken a while to hone, even though it is simple. It may not work for everyone or be everyone's cup of tea. But give it a season or two and you'll probably see that the ME responds well to it. I never Sim games so I have no idea how it'll play out when the AI is controlling it. It's meant to be played by the user. As is all of the game.

It's obviously just one part of the puzzle. I stand by what i've been saying, that we need to manage our club and make the right decisions to make the ME show us something good. When I've made bad decisions I've been FM'd and seen the ME do all the things people have an issue with. As I've provided previously.

But overall, I've found it to be strong, and as much fun to watch in the ME as I've had on this version of FM.

It also strikes me that some of my issues maybe that I play on 2d. For why I might be missing some of the points raised about certain ME issues. But i've been playing for long enough to know what is a header and what is a shot and there is really good balance in this tactic for all types of goals.

Edited March 6, 2020 by Tyburn
Highlighting a lack of set piece goals

[esca]

Will there be any minor database change in the future?

Funny because some of the players added in the 20.3 database, is missing in 20.4 database.

[danstam]

17 minutes ago, pheelf said:

For e.g. the whole lack of central play mantra which is often wheeled out which seems to ignore the fact that the central areas are the easiest areas to defend. In previous games (FM17 being a prime example) you could exploit the central areas because the opposition wouldn't defend properly. Yes, it may have been more fun to play the game seeing your team shredding teams through the middle but that doesn't make it a better representation of real football. 

What makes it more bizarre for me is that I play a flat 4-4-2 which is definitely not designed to exploit central play and I see plenty of central play (through passes, movement into the channels, balls over the top). I'm just theorizing but maybe what is being missed is that in order to have good central play your players need to have space and the only way that is going to happen is by having good width and depth to your attacks. 

Exactly. Ask Pep Guardiola what he tells  his team to do when a team is too hard to break down (hint: starts with c and ends with ross).

Also I have the same experience with the 4-4-2, it has been a powerful formation since FM 19.

[MBarbaric]

2 ore fa, danstam ha scritto:

central areas are the easiest areas to defend

this isn't really true. 

 

it isn't true because the central corridor is the shortest route to the goal and, more importantly, there is 360 degrees of passing options to retain possession with 180 degrees of forward passing options.

that is also why teams more often (but not exclusively)  use pressing traps on the flanks and not in the central corridor (50% less space to cover as half of the work is done by the sideline).

 

flanks are longer distance to goal and, more importantly, only 180 degrees of passing options with only 90 degrees of forward passing options which make them relatively less dangerous compared to central corridor/half-spaces.

 

that is the theory, in reality it all depends how one team attacks and who is attacking. it is always more difficult to contain CR wide than Average Joe in the center but it gets progressively more complicated when you consider movement patterns and coordination of the defensive/offensive unit.

 

i believe si should really provide some fundamental facts about how/why certain things are done (regarding tactics). it would help people create more logical tactics.

Edited March 6, 2020 by MBarbaric

[MrPompey]

18 minutes ago, esca said:

Will there be any minor database change in the future?

Funny because some of the players added in the 20.3 database, is missing in 20.4 database.

you obviously need to post details of players missing rather than make a general statement that helps mo-one

 

[SpGR]

3 ore fa, ben carter ha scritto:

Guessing that's that for the ME but a major gripe I've run into is teams just passing the ball across their defence for the majority of the game. Even if I happen to be a goal or two up the opposition just seem content to rack up passes amongst their back four.

These are fairly common occurrences for me (playing as RB Leipzig)

Even going full on Gegenpress my players rarely force a tackle or mistake for strings and strings of passes.

 

 

I notice a "play on the outsides" philosophy - some with short passes only, some with a bit more direct passes.
And that definitely meets with threads I've read in the Bugs section about central play - this actually is a ME pattern over what the AI favours more, and it's no central passes.

2 ore fa, duesouth ha scritto:

Superb post - 100% agree.

Just reading through the last 3/4 pages post-update.  It seems that as the ME hasn't been addressed again in this patch, people are assuming that's it - but we don't know for sure.  I'm personally thinking they might well be still working on one last attempt to fix the ME - but again I don't know for sure.  SI have clearly taken a lot of heat.  That could have been mitigated by a short statement with the 20.4.0 release notes.  Either:

As a company with extremely high standards, SI acknowledge that the ME is not up to those standards.  Rather than rush an unfinished patch with this database update, we have elected to continue to work on improvements to the ME and hope to have something tested and released by the end of March.  We do understand the frustration with the ME and our team are working tirelessly to improve the product.  We would appreciate your patience while we continue our work and testing.  As ever, thank you for supporting the series and your obvious passion for our product.

Or:

With the release of 20.4.0 this is, outside of any hot fixes required for game breaking issues, the last upgrade to either the FM20 database or ME.  While we have taken on board your comments and frustrations with the FM20 ME, we feel with the previous release it is a finished product we are happy with and meets our internally high standards.  Our development team will now switch focus to FM21 - a product which we are excited to develop and eventually share with our passionate and loyal fanbase.  We will of course continue to read feedback on the FM20 ME, and these voices will be heard as we start FM21 planning and development.  As ever, thank you for supporting the series and your obvious passion for our product.

 

I don't really understand how complex the ME is - but I do understand it's not easy, as I would understand it's complex to be the Governor of the Bank of England!  However, customer service is easy - be up front and open with your customers.  If the customer is seeing an issue (although not easy to see a consensus at times in this thread - it is very clear the vast majority don't think this ME is good enough) face up to it and then fix it; if you don't think it's a problem, say why you don't; if you can't fix it - tell us and you might have to offer say 15% off FM21 rather than 10% for pre-release orders.

Reading between the lines almost, I do get a sense of high standards within SI Towers - but that does need to be communicated way better with the fanbase.  I'm sure it's not easy taking the heat at times - but with excellent customer service, that would be better.

That would be greatly appreciated, but one could also read:

1) SI admit they've released an unfinished game ---> not good for their image + they expose the ME team

2) SI states they're content with the current title ---> not good for many users + it seems to save their image

Furthermore, we've been used to years of strict changelogs and even strictier phrases about ME in the changelogs.
I couldn't agree more with the fact SI should be more transparent about this.

I don't care that much about UI anymore, I care about the engine.
You can put the car body of a Ferrari around a Fiat engine, but Fiats are Fiats and Ferraris are Ferraris, so Fix It Again Team!

[esca]

2 minutes ago, MrPompey said:

you obviously need to post details of players missing rather than make a general statement that helps mo-one

 

Already done that sir.

Still no reply from the team. They also doesn't mentioned any deadline in order for the changes to reflect in the latest database( transfer/managerial ).

[MrPompey]

If they haven't said it then you cant make things up

You'll need to be specific around the bugs you think need resolving and to evidence them. That will be the best way to get issues fixed. Its a good time to raise them now so they have good chance of getting resolved on FM21

[MrPompey]

13 minutes ago, esca said:

Already done that sir.

Still no reply from the team. They also doesn't mentioned any deadline in order for the changes to reflect in the latest database( transfer/managerial ).

So you are talking about 1 player rather than players

Which team do you think he now plays for? By all accounts he left KV Kortrijk (Belgium) in January 2020 and is without a club. He went to train with Cardiff, left and is now training with FA Selangor (Malaysian team) so is without a club currently.

 

[duff33]

Have tried to persevere - I work for a software developer, so know how hard it can be to make minor changes to something as complex as the ME - but admit the fun is being somewhat sucked out of things right now; it seemed like the beta had a better balance to it, but the full update has made things frustrating rather than fun; strikers feel largely useless, tactics which used to work pretty well (at least I thought) now seem like duds as the penetration in the final third is less sharp at the moment.

This as an aside to my ongoing paranoia about how things seem to go after restarting the game - forget any winning streak you might have been on

Edited March 6, 2020 by duff33

[RHKC]

I'm really enjoying the game. My only issue is goalkeeper ratings. My GK managed 22 clean sheets in the Championship in the first season and currently has 13 in 29 games in the Premier League (brilliant for a newly promoted club) but his average match rating was 6.79 last season and is only 6.74 this season.

[Travis Bickle]

Just now, RHKC said:

I'm really enjoying the game. My only issue is goalkeeper ratings. My GK managed 22 clean sheets in the Championship in the first season and currently has 13 in 29 games in the Premier League (brilliant for a newly promoted club) but his average match rating was 6.79 last season and is only 6.74 this season.

Yeah it is rare to see GKs have over a 6.9 even with good saves and a cleansheet. 

[Travis Bickle]

Okay I've criticised a lot, but one positive thing I've noticed since the 20.3 patch is that mangers get fired with higher frequency which I think reflects reality 100x better. Before managers would stay in a job underperforming. Now days it better reflects reality. In many leagues in the world 3 losses in a row result in a sacking. 

[KVJ92]

3 minutes ago, RHKC said:

I'm really enjoying the game. My only issue is goalkeeper ratings. My GK managed 22 clean sheets in the Championship in the first season and currently has 13 in 29 games in the Premier League (brilliant for a newly promoted club) but his average match rating was 6.79 last season and is only 6.74 this season.

Clean sheet does not, necessarily mean a good keeper-performance. How many saves has he? Is it the defenders who are doing all the work meaning no shots against you? 

[MatthewS17]

How is it that this game can go from hopeful feedback in the beta(After the first beta update), which personally to me had the most fluency. The only issue at the time was 1v1s, but it wasn't overblown, and the wingers blasting into the side netting. 

How is it that we go from that to a complete bore of a game that seems to have moved any trace of attacking movement. Why does this game always regress? It's almost as if there's a common tool to force you into the next edition like sheep, promising updates and work but never delivering. Then move onto the next game. 

FM21 is not released yet. In no way should planning move to the next edition without first developing the best version possible of the current edition. Essentially, what SI is saying is that, up to this point, even if we admit there's problems, you're going to have to deal with it and we don't care. 

This mentality is impossible to actually comprehend to me. 

The problem here lies in the fact that people will still buy the next edition, go through the same thing, then do it again. That, alongside the absolute lack of competition. 

[RHKC]

42 minutes ago, KVJ92 said:

Clean sheet does not, necessarily mean a good keeper-performance. How many saves has he? Is it the defenders who are doing all the work meaning no shots against you? 

 

 

Bristol City 3-0 Huddersfield: 5 saves made. Rating 6.8

Bristol City 4-0 Leeds: 9 saves made. Rating 6.9

Bristol City 1-0 Fulham: 7 saves made. Rating 6.8

 

 

His highest rating all season was 7.0 in which he made 4 saves in a 2-1 win over Middlesbrough. 

 

No matter how good your defenders play, you need a very good GK to keep 22 clean sheets. Look how much different Liverpool look without Alisson. The GK ratings should reflect this.

[yandex]

46 minutes ago, RHKC said:

 

 

Bristol City 3-0 Huddersfield: 5 saves made. Rating 6.8

Bristol City 4-0 Leeds: 9 saves made. Rating 6.9

Bristol City 1-0 Fulham: 7 saves made. Rating 6.8

 

 

His highest rating all season was 7.0 in which he made 4 saves in a 2-1 win over Middlesbrough. 

 

No matter how good your defenders play, you need a very good GK to keep 22 clean sheets. Look how much different Liverpool look without Alisson. The GK ratings should reflect this.

Goalkeepers make ridiculously many saves on average in this game. There's way too many shots on target.

[craigcwwe]

18 hours ago, limey150781 said:

SI should be in a position to say whether or not they plan another ME patch. They're either working on something that they're planning on getting out or they're done and focus is now on 21. I completely get not committing to time frames for expected patches, this isnt like that though. They'll know whether or not there is a plan for another patch and lots of people are holding off on their career saves on depending on this information, positive or not.

Yep. I don't understand the secrecy around it. 

18 hours ago, Jimmious7 said:

Are we sure there were no ME changes or speculating because they are not explicitly written? 

I wonder if we could get an answer to that

There hasn't been any ME changes at all per the changlist. If there was any changes to the ME it would've been noted. 

17 hours ago, Old Joe Clarke said:

Just played and watched a whole match and there is a difference in the ME without a doubt, my players changed for the better and the opposition did not play as well due to lesser attributes, the whole dynamics of the game was different.  More space, better and worse passing showed up due to this, come on folks, give it a go. If you are reading this you own the game ( or if you don't you are really sad) Tweak the tactics and get back into it. Play footie and have fun.

See the above. 

15 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

I think that users now deserve some form of statement about the state of the match engine, why there have been no changes, and what is being done about it for the future.

This is a game we pay for, and we have not received the product we expect this year. Everything is really nice except the most critical part of the game, the actual football. To have no update of the ME in the post transfer window patch is new to me. It either suggests SI are completely satisfied with their engine (Which would be extremely worrying) or they can't fix it. I would like to know which. I think we all deserve some information at this point. I have never known the interaction between devs and users of FM be so poor as right now. It feels like we are going the way of codemasters. Acknowledging bugs, but never actually fixing them and not telling you why. This alienates your fanbase, and that is bad for everyone. 

I know this is sounding uber critical and perhaps harsh. I apologise for that. But I feel this needs to be addressed and it is important feedback. 

This. 

I get at some point the whole gang have to move over fully to FM21 but like you said, if they are satisfied with the current state of the ME then that is indeed 'extremely worrying' 

It's probably a case of they don't have the tools to fix the issues that have been present in the last two games now. It's why I've said that the attacking side of the new game probably needs some new tools, roles, options, something to balance it out. What they are I don't know but something has to be done because we're likely going to have the same issues next FM otherwise. 

7 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Who says nothing has been done?  If you have an issue use the report button, otherwise please keep your passive aggressive digs to yourself thanks. 

@sporadicsmiles you raise points about the communication, and I'd definitely say more communication would be good, but it goes both ways. The state of the forum from day one has been pretty poor, and given Devs have no obligation to come to this parts, most are unlikely to want to stick their heads in here as part of the busy day when then are likely to get this flak. Neil does get in here as much as he can, that being said. The other thing would be to remember that they can't always give all the answers, but it is something they are working on

It should also be noted that the 3rd ME update was essentially released early. 

 

 

Perhaps there should be some communication, via PM, as to what, if any action has been taken when you report someone? 

 

"The state of the forum from day one has been pretty poor" 

 

I think that is unfair. Unfair to the users who have spent their own time and going out of their way to report issues with the game. Who have spent the time uploading PKMs to the site and who by and large don't even get a reply to say that it's been picked up. You are just left wondering, hoping that it has. 

There's also been some really good posts in these feedback threads since release with well thought out and well written posts detailing their feedback with the game. Negative feedback is good, it's needed, of course it has to been written constructively and that's not always been the case obviously but I think on the whole these threads are a good resource for both users and the devs to both give feedback and see feedback. 

 

"Devs have no obligation to come to this parts"

Maybe not an obligation but surely they should want to stay in touch so to speak with their audience? Otherwise you get a disconnect. I don't see too many devs in here and whilst I'm sure they are busy working on the game but you don't see them even browsing the threads. It's the same guys from SI that are viewing the thread. Are we certain that our feedback is being collated and shared with the rest of the team? Just speculating here, maybe it is, who knows? Users in here have said that they've shared PKMs and bug reports etc and the issue is still in the game. 

I've posted in these threads over the cycle of FM20 that the game is the most updated game in the series by my memory and I've been playing for over a decade. I don't personally enjoy the ME in this version after putting in 500 hours since the day the beta came out. I acknowledge that the ME is a tricky beast to tame, as others do in here, I've had my enjoyment and monies worth from this version. I hope, like we all do that FM21 gets the ME on point with a well balanced ME which doesn't funnel you down a certain path to succeed unlike other versions of the game pre FM19. At the moment the game feels anything but balanced. 

 

Edited March 6, 2020 by craigcwwe

[ubos]

I think we all know this is an awful game (going by ME quality) which feel half baked most of the time but is being covered up by some pointless visual features? We just have no better alternatives for our addiction. So either show it to the devs by not buying the game anymore and hurt them where it matters, or continue to buy the game and line their pockets without actually seeing what improvements you really need.

PS. I am just as guilty of the latter.

[craigcwwe]

4 hours ago, ubos said:

I think we all know this is an awful game (going by ME quality) which feel half baked most of the time but is being covered up by some pointless visual features? We just have no better alternatives for our addiction. So either show it to the devs by not buying the game anymore and hurt them where it matters, or continue to buy the game and line their pockets without actually seeing what improvements you really need.

PS. I am just as guilty of the latter.

I've taken a break from the series before for a few versions a few years ago and I feel another break is on the cards. Already stopped playing FM20 and doubt I'll get FM21 on release. For me to get the game I'd need to see genuine improvements to the game in an attacking sense first and foremost and a well balanced ME that caters to all playstyles. 

This is where a lack of competition doesn't help. 

Edited March 6, 2020 by craigcwwe

[akkm]

3 hours ago, MBarbaric said:

this isn't really true. 

 

it isn't true because the central corridor is the shortest route to the goal and, more importantly, there is 360 degrees of passing options to retain possession with 180 degrees of forward passing options.

that is also why teams more often (but not exclusively)  use pressing traps on the flanks and not in the central corridor (50% less space to cover as half of the work is done by the sideline).

 

flanks are longer distance to goal and, more importantly, only 180 degrees of passing options with only 90 degrees of forward passing options which make them relatively less dangerous compared to central corridor/half-spaces.

 

that is the theory, in reality it all depends how one team attacks and who is attacking. it is always more difficult to contain CR wide than Average Joe in the center but it gets progressively more complicated when you consider movement patterns and coordination of the defensive/offensive unit.

 

i believe si should really provide some fundamental facts about how/why certain things are done (regarding tactics). it would help people create more logical tactics.

great post. There's a reason teams choose to defend central areas because as said it's the shortest route to goal...you don't see teams prioritise defending flanks (consistently anyway) over the centre and leaving massive gaps centrally because good teams/players first course/default is to look centrally to create...as in with an opening/space players will look to play players in centrally as it's a higher percentage play creating a higher probability of a goalscoring chance. In FM the opposite happens...players often prioritise flanks over central passes so in effect the pass decision making in FM is the OPPPOSITE to real world pass decision making. Whether it's space/run evaluation within FM is academic but FM match engine is regularly making pass decisions which are the opposite of what they should be doing. This is why there's such frustration on the engine. But above point very well made about central corridor...there's a reason teams defend that in numbers as it's the easiest and most effective route to goal given the opportunity. If you vacate central areas in real world teams will exploit that accordingly and as efficiently as they can. Try that exercise in FM and you'll see the way the vacated central space gets exploited will leave you despondent at the state of the current engine.

Pass decision making in the real world will go through the middle for the best option when there or even try and create a better opportunity if not immediately there. In FM this isn't happening. Yeah in real world play will move to wider areas either to stretch play and drag players/defensive units out of position and exploit that opening or the occasional cross when its there or to mix it up but in FM the decision making to simulate that is woeful

[Mitja]

4 hours ago, pheelf said:

For e.g. the whole lack of central play mantra which is often wheeled out which seems to ignore the fact that the central areas are the easiest areas to defend. In previous games (FM17 being a prime example) you could exploit the central areas because the opposition wouldn't defend properly. Yes, it may have been more fun to play the game seeing your team shredding teams through the middle but that doesn't make it a better representation of real football. 

 

Central areas are defended well in FM17 it's the flanks that are problematic and only AMLR positions don't offer enough support centrally. But hardly noticable imho or game breaking. Exploting central play happens because MCs and wide forwards are willing to make forward runs beyond strikers and strikers dropping deep and into channels. This movement creates  space for one-two's, inteligent through balls and cutt-backs. But the AI knows how to defend the middle so it's not that central play is OP far from it, for exaple I'm in position now where I can't play that style because teams defens easily aginst it. In FM20 or 19 there's very little movement upfront and when defending teams play deep and narrow it is logical the magic never happens. Lack of movement is well known thing.