A Discussion About the Advanced Playmaker

[wixxi]

I would imagine a large part of it is the AI manager having a strong inclination towards playing players in their most suitable role as decided by the green circle, and since most top sides tend to have central midfielders who are suited to attacking/playmaking roles they'll be played there in most formations. I think if it were a 4231 with DMs rather than CMs they would line up in a more conventional style since the manager wouldn't play players such as Thiago Almada there.

[Nick_CB]

The best thing I did to improve my AMC performance

Abandon the use of 2 MC's

My AP(Harry Pooster) has a lot more freedom of creation

 

Edited June 23, 2020 by Nick_CB

[jozza800]

That second goal is majestic!

 

A couple of questions - 

 

How often does this sort of goal happen?

At what stage of the season did these two goals happen?

How do/did the opposition set up?

What PIs has you AMC got?

What PPMs has your AMC got?

 

Thanks.

[Boydo]

Following this thread with interest, definitely noticed an improvement in my AM's performance when dropping both CMs back to the DM position (even with the same roles). 

 

I hope that for FM21 SI will set the "default 4-2-3-1" to be the "4-2-3-1 DM Wide" formation, as I feel this is a more realistic portrayal of the formation. 

[BigV]

15 minutes ago, Boydo said:

Following this thread with interest, definitely noticed an improvement in my AM's performance when dropping both CMs back to the DM position (even with the same roles). 

 

I hope that for FM21 SI will set the "default 4-2-3-1" to be the "4-2-3-1 DM Wide" formation, as I feel this is a more realistic portrayal of the formation. 

I mentioned it in the last page 

However I disagree with your last point. A 4231 has existed with CM's for a long time just like DM's they both provide different measures even with the same roles- IRL. What you see the DM's do is what you should see the CM's do however it seems the CM's love to get forward more than ever regardless of the role leaving spaces. A DLP defend CM is very much like a DM that is slightly positioned higher, Support on the other hand tends to get slightly higher, the DM DLP-S does what a CM DLP should sit deep and spray passes. 

DM's should screen the backline most of the time which they kinda do but need to be more reserved hence why I think DM positions act like CM positions. It also depends on the player, having the likes of a BBM in DM very rarely works in lower leagues until you get "top class players" in 1st divisions. Players are suited to their role and dont change improve in their positions (as in gets greener) alot of the time, yet when they play CM is leaves them wide open.... 

Tricky thing to sort when roles and positions aren't working in their desired areas. Not many teams that play 4231 play with DM's, united for example play CM's and hardly does bruno get caught by a player moving forward by that fred, mcsauce or another CM that plays there. Same with spurs, alli is always close to kane, le celso has the freedom to move around and no one goes close or goes in his area. A very big fault with FM that is probably why the AMC's of AP/AM seem less useful. 

[Boydo]

19 hours ago, BigV said:

I mentioned it in the last page 

However I disagree with your last point. A 4231 has existed with CM's for a long time just like DM's they both provide different measures even with the same roles- IRL. What you see the DM's do is what you should see the CM's do however it seems the CM's love to get forward more than ever regardless of the role leaving spaces. A DLP defend CM is very much like a DM that is slightly positioned higher, Support on the other hand tends to get slightly higher, the DM DLP-S does what a CM DLP should sit deep and spray passes. 

DM's should screen the backline most of the time which they kinda do but need to be more reserved hence why I think DM positions act like CM positions. It also depends on the player, having the likes of a BBM in DM very rarely works in lower leagues until you get "top class players" in 1st divisions. Players are suited to their role and dont change improve in their positions (as in gets greener) alot of the time, yet when they play CM is leaves them wide open.... 

Tricky thing to sort when roles and positions aren't working in their desired areas. Not many teams that play 4231 play with DM's, united for example play CM's and hardly does bruno get caught by a player moving forward by that fred, mcsauce or another CM that plays there. Same with spurs, alli is always close to kane, le celso has the freedom to move around and no one goes close or goes in his area. A very big fault with FM that is probably why the AMC's of AP/AM seem less useful. 

That's a fair point, and it's good that different people have different interpretations! It would be boring if everyone thought identically about this game.

My impression comes from watching tactical videos (recently such as Alonso's masterclass on youtube) where the double pivot is synonymous with a "double 6", a 6 being a defensive midfielder.  He would describe both him and Sami Khedira as " playing the 6 role in the 4-2-3-1" in the video, though obviously they both were very different (creator/destroyer).

[BigV]

1 hour ago, Boydo said:

That's a fair point, and it's good that different people have different interpretations! It would be boring if everyone thought identically about this game.

My impression comes from watching tactical videos (recently such as Alonso's masterclass on youtube) where the double pivot is synonymous with a "double 6", a 6 being a defensive midfielder.  He would describe both him and Sami Khedira as " playing the 6 role in the 4-2-3-1" in the video, though obviously they both were very different (creator/destroyer).

Similar to what i've done too, and very true.

I watch a fair few streams, some people work great with 2 cm's and make the CAM work which is great to see, but then some don't and there's cases some use the same tactics (but not same players) and still come short or at least the CAM player does. I dropped the cm's to DM's and the CAM worked quite well until they get close to the box, if they cant spray it through the middle then they pass it wide and it happens over and over until its a breakthrough or loss. 

It'd be nice to see it work again as I love the 4231 and love working around CAM's in general but I have a feeling the game has pushed people into other formations to get the better results, one being 433 for example. 

[Boydo]

17 minutes ago, BigV said:

It'd be nice to see it work again as I love the 4231 and love working around CAM's in general but I have a feeling the game has pushed people into other formations to get the better results, one being 433 for example. 

100%. 4-2-3-1 seems to be one of the trickiest formations to get right (just look at the front page of the tactics page here). Given how common it is in football it would be nice to make it easier to pull off in game given these difficulties don't seem to arise with other common formations (4-3-3, 4-4-2).

[ThomasHK1979]

What is the CAM PI?

[BigV]

On 25/06/2020 at 12:27, Boydo said:

100%. 4-2-3-1 seems to be one of the trickiest formations to get right (just look at the front page of the tactics page here). Given how common it is in football it would be nice to make it easier to pull off in game given these difficulties don't seem to arise with other common formations (4-3-3, 4-4-2).

I actually think they tried to tweak the formation, its actually less used these days cause CAM playmakers aren't defensive enough to provide cover for the 2 sitting ones. That said it should be viable cause teams still do use it and usually have CAMs as playmakers rather than attacking mids.

 

On 25/06/2020 at 13:33, ThomasHK1979 said:

What is the CAM PI?

CAM player instructions. 

[felley]

This is a great thread. I think it's been said by a few people so far but when choosing an AM Role, it really depends heavily on what you're looking for.

I've had great success recently playing with a 4-1-2-1-2 and I switch up my AM Role depending on the opposition I'll be facing. If I'm the underdog and I know the opponent will be leaving my "Front 3" space to exploit, then my AM will be an AM(A) behind an AF(A) and a DLF(S)/PF(S). This allows us to work the channels and drag the defenders around, with my AM exploiting gaps with forward dribbles, late runs and progressive passing.

If however we're the favourite and/or the opponent is looking to drop off and defend, I play an AP(S) behind an AF(A) and a PF(A). This ensures the defenders are constantly occupied and gives the AP the space to dictate play from the number 10 position and beyond, as he also moves out to the flanks to support advancing wing backs. This gives us more angles of attack and a direct threat with two forwards looking to exploit through balls should my AP/DLP/HB want to play it long.

In essence, changing a few roles gives us two different play styles, overloading the 10 position and looking for smart transisitions or patiently drawing a few yards of space then killing the opposition with clever passes. Simple but very effective.

[jozza800]

1 hour ago, felley said:

This is a great thread. I think it's been said by a few people so far but when choosing an AM Role, it really depends heavily on what you're looking for.

I've had great success recently playing with a 4-1-2-1-2 and I switch up my AM Role depending on the opposition I'll be facing. If I'm the underdog and I know the opponent will be leaving my "Front 3" space to exploit, then my AM will be an AM(A) behind an AF(A) and a DLF(S)/PF(S). This allows us to work the channels and drag the defenders around, with my AM exploiting gaps with forward dribbles, late runs and progressive passing.

If however we're the favourite and/or the opponent is looking to drop off and defend, I play an AP(S) behind an AF(A) and a PF(A). This ensures the defenders are constantly occupied and gives the AP the space to dictate play from the number 10 position and beyond, as he also moves out to the flanks to support advancing wing backs. This gives us more angles of attack and a direct threat with two forwards looking to exploit through balls should my AP/DLP/HB want to play it long.

In essence, changing a few roles gives us two different play styles, overloading the 10 position and looking for smart transisitions or patiently drawing a few yards of space then killing the opposition with clever passes. Simple but very effective.

Is this what you see? An AP behind an AF should (in my mind at least) create these kinds of chances. I've found that an AP especially on support tends to keep it quite simple and plays short passes to players around him, usually the fullbacks. He's almost like an advanced DLP if that makes sense.

I think one of the issues is playing 1 upront - the forward becomes too easy to mark and the AP will rufuse any attempt at the pass. Sometimes an IW or IF will be a target but usually it is a wide pass to set them up for a cross rather than through on goal.

 

 

[jozza800]

Any updates on this?  Anybody else getting their AMCs to create anything in front of them?

I think this highlights the problem with the AMC (or at least my AMC). It's almost as if there's an invisible barrier around the 18 yard box). Everything is going side ways and not a single direct forward pass to a striker.

This is in a 4-2-3-1

 

 

I'm thinking it might be the strikers fault, maybe an AF doesnt move enough? What partnerships are people using?

[crusadertsar]

55 minutes ago, jozza800 said:

Any updates on this?  Anybody else getting their AMCs to create anything in front of them?

I think this highlights the problem with the AMC (or at least my AMC). It's almost as if there's an invisible barrier around the 18 yard box). Everything is going side ways and not a single direct forward pass to a striker.

This is in a 4-2-3-1

 

 

I'm thinking it might be the strikers fault, maybe an AF doesnt move enough? What partnerships are people using?

But do you even have any space where your strikers are? I find that usually my central playmaker acts this way when facing really stubborn defences that clog up the central area. Then they have no choice but to divert the ball to the flanks.

I would also be curious to see the Defence Line and Line of Engagement in your tactic. I'm going to bet you are playing very aggressive high pressing style.

Edited July 2, 2020 by crusadertsar

[jozza800]

I laways play with a High DL. The LOE has changed on numerous occasions throught this current save. I struggle to actually see much a difference in positioning 

Saying that, this was a CL game against Arsenal who pushed on and appeared to leave space in behind.

[crusadertsar]

43 minutes ago, jozza800 said:

I laways play with a High DL. The LOE has changed on numerous occasions throught this current save. I struggle to actually see much a difference in positioning 

Saying that, this was a CL game against Arsenal who pushed on and appeared to leave space in behind.

Yeah but did they play with a DM? When I see the other team is using at least one DM I switch to a formation where my playmaker is not in AMC position.

Edited July 2, 2020 by crusadertsar

[jozza800]

Not in the DM strata - They went with 4-2-3-1.

[jozza800]

I dont want to turn this into a thread about my save (before ED hounds me out again!).

I just want to see what others are seeing when they're playing with an AMC behind a striker.

[crusadertsar]

@jozza800I'm seeing good ratings from my main AMC Mikel Oyarzabal he is scoring and assisting equally. We are in March and he stands at 12 total goals and 10 assists in all games. Mind you he is getting alot of key assists that are not recorded there. I usually play him as AM on attack behind an Advanced Forward. I make sure to give him as much space as possible so I play 4-2-3-1 with two DMs and have at least one wide attacker playing as winger to provide width.

Edited July 2, 2020 by crusadertsar

[jozza800]

I'd be interested to see your pass map of your AMC when he's had a good game. Especially when he's assisted.

[crusadertsar]

1 hour ago, jozza800 said:

I'd be interested to see your pass map of your AMC when he's had a good game. Especially when he's assisted.

Will post something when have a chance tonight

[ThomasHK1979]

So what’s the conclusion in this thread. What’s the best role for your AMC/AP in the 4231 system?

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

So what’s the conclusion in this thread. What’s the best role for your AMC/AP in the 4231 system?

There is no such thing in FM (or RL football) as the "best" role, not just for the AMC in a 4231 but for any position in any formation. There is just good or bad role selection relative to the setup as a whole and type of players played within it. 

[BigV]

21 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

There is no such thing in FM (or RL football) as the "best" role, not just for the AMC in a 4231 but for any position in any formation. There is just good or bad role selection relative to the setup as a whole and type of players played within it. 

You have a good point but the ME dictates which one is likely to perform better and that's the AM, AP is a ball hogger and loves to go to deep + that with 2cm's that SHOULD sit but dont *sometimes* (usually depending on the role) overlaps the space for it all to work hence becoming a side to side kinda play. 

AM tends to be a bit more direct imo, tries to dribble more than pass but when they do, its similar to the AP, having an AM recycles the ball leaving more room for other players to stand in e.g. your wide players or strikers. 

[denen123]

59 minutes ago, BigV said:

You have a good point but the ME dictates which one is likely to perform better and that's the AM, AP is a ball hogger and loves to go to deep + that with 2cm's that SHOULD sit but dont *sometimes* (usually depending on the role) overlaps the space for it all to work hence becoming a side to side kinda play. 

AM tends to be a bit more direct imo, tries to dribble more than pass but when they do, its similar to the AP, having an AM recycles the ball leaving more room for other players to stand in e.g. your wide players or strikers. 

So it is relative to what you want, right? The Ap(s) thrives on early runners in the box.  It's a "quarterback" role, that is positioned up top. Doesn't need pace, finishing, & in some cases, dribbling. His Balance, Agility, flair & teamwork helps him to avoid the press. He thrives a lot in my 2 striker systems (3-1-4-2, 3-3-1-3, 4-3-1-2). What is common? 2 runners up top. Even in a 4-2-3-1, I've achieved success with it.

 

AM(a) is a blank. He, like the SS(a), is essentially a runner. Feeds off crosses & lays in passes. Like you alluded to, he isn't that much of a ball hogger, so expected to be pressed less.

Where am i going with this, you want a playmaker to thrive? Create runners. Whether it be 2 + strikers or 3/ Even a striker that doesn't clog his area, but plays on the shoulder of defense coupled with a wide player that does something in the same vain(W(a), IF(a), RM(d)). It works. 

Another thing is PI's & PPM's. Playmaker with "plays one-two's"/"simple passes" doesn't bide well with my mind. 

I don't want to invalidate people's argument. Yes, the AI can sit and play like prime Athletico Madrid/Jose's Inter, making it look impossible for your AP(s), but it is a role that can work way better than running AM roles, if you know what you want & how to achieve it, but a lot of obsession with overly retaining the ball & some formations just don't maximize the AM's in this game.

 

[ThomasHK1979]

On 29/05/2020 at 00:33, Jack722 said:

Or just about number 10's in general.

I'm not going to be posting any tactics, as this is going to be a very general post. 

Recently, I completed a season long save with AC Milan. I was playing Paqueta as an AMs but he wasn't really producing any meaningful out. However, it didn't really bother me as we were playing quite well. One game, my creative deeplying playmaker was injured, so I played Paqueta as an APa instead. In that game, he picked up the ball from about the half way line, skipped past a couple defenders, which pulled players out of position, before slotting a through ball to one of my wingers, and I fell in love with the role. 

The problem is, after that game, he went back to being a bit useless. And I'm not sure why.

I don't really buy that 'the CAM position is weak this year' which i hear a lot of people say. The reason why is that advanced playmakers in central midfield, as well as Trequartistas/false 9s in attack still tend to be popular and produce good outputs. These roles pretty much gravitate to the same position - from wherever they start. It just doesn't make sense to me why simply moving the player to do the same thing but in another position should improve him so much. An example of this would be Thiago Almada. As a well known wonderkid, he is seen in a lot of teams on the forums, but I'm sure that 90% he is being played out of postition as a MEZ or a F9, even though he is a natural number 10.

Basically, I'm not looking for someone to take a look at my tactics, or list a set of roles that's worked for them. I want to find out common reasons why the number 10 gets lots of poor ratings, as well as how to get the best out of a number 10 through team instructions and role selection with reasons as to why it works.

Obviously, every player is different, but for reference, here is an example of the player I was using. He has the typical AP attributes that you would expect (first touch, flair, dribbling, passing etc)

(Ignore that he is shown as a natural CM here )

Before you say that there are loads of ways to get a number 10 being the star player, or at least being one of the most important players in the team, imagine that you have the guy in the pic above, and you have an unlimited budget to bring in whatever kinds of players that you want to play with him. How would you set up the roles and team instructions in order to make him the star player? Also, i dont really care what his role is (doesn't have to be an advanced playmaker - as long as he is in the number 10 slot.)

For example, maybe he would have the highest potential playing in a high pressing team that keeps the ball, so that he can get the most touches on the ball as possible and not have to be wasted defending. Or maybe he'd be best in a counter attacking side, where there will be the most space in front of and behind the defence in order to dribble past a few players then play a through ball to a striker.

And if not, a link to any kind of article or video that talks about the advanced playmaker (whether in real life or in FM) would be appreciated as well.

I understand it’s all about giving your AMC space to operate. Then why do all of you that posts screens of your tactic play with narrow or fairly narrow team width? Wouldn’t you play with wide or extremely wide width to give your AMC more space?

[ThomasHK1979]

On 09/06/2020 at 23:57, dekzeh said:

So I just finished the season, I was planning on making a huge detailed post with highlights from the goals scored and the performance of Mateo (and his backup, Silvio), but I just played the final game of the season and as you can imagine I'm not looking to delve into it right now

 

Still though, it was by far the best season I had in FM, it felt like I was playing CM0102 at times with how easy and automated it was, but it turns out Jurgen Klopp's Bayern is bloody good in the universe of my save game, having won 4 out of the last 5 Champions Leagues, ironically they have only failed when the final was at their place. My goal of becoming the best manager in the world is made kinda hard when Klopp has won 6 Champions Leagues in 10 years with two different clubs (he stayed at Liverpool till 2028, then joining Bayern). 

But I digress, before I go too much out of topic, I'll go back to talking about the number 10 role

The base tactic I went with for the season I largely similar to the one I had before:

The visible differences here are: two wingers, as I said I would try, and WB's on Automatic instead of Support. PIs on the Wingers to 'Get Further Forward', BWM to 'Shoot Less Often' and the AM to 'Dribble More' 'Roam From Position' and 'Take More Risks'. The WB's on Au instead of Su are just the same on a Positive mentality, just without the 'Get Further Forward' PI, which made them work better with the Wingers. 

Now, to explain why I end up with two wingers I need to go a bit into depth with what I found about the wide forward roles in conjunction with width and what I wanted from them.

My setup is very aggressive, offensively and defensively, and focused on transitions and through balls, so I need my wide men to move a lot vertically. That was the key, it sounds almost too obvious, to get vertical passes I needed the players around my creator to move vertically.

The Inverted Winger was then a no-go, as their movement is mostly lateral, they are primarily creator and not runners, even on Attack duty, they didn't give me the movement I wanted.

The Winger does give me the vertical movement that I wanted, but it is too wide, it doesn't get into deadly positions and while they would get to the end of through balls the risk/reward wasn't there because if you're constantly going for risky, 50-50 passes, you need a goal scoring chance when your pass goes through, not just to get into an ok position to cross.

The Inside Forward is the most obvious one, and it definitely works, the issue I have with it is: it is too attacking. It truly is a forward and it shows. It threw off the balance of my tactic, it was too far away from my wingbacks, leaving a huge gap there and making my pressing game worse. Another issue I have, especially with IF-At but even on Su it was an issue at times, they get forward too early and then they sit still there, it is really annoying, as I'd expect them to be more dynamic, come back, receive a ball, play a one-two, make a run again, but no, they just sit there. If you miss the opportunity to pass to him when he makes his run, you're stuck with a second AF, just pushing the defense-line back, which was a waste to me. 

Another thing I tried: a 4231 Narrow with 2 Shadow Strikers and the results were very similar to the IFs but obviously much worse defensively.

So I went back to what worked with my winger in the previous season, and the main difference was the width. When I was experimenting I just wanted to get the most out of the AM even if it hurt my tactic a little overall, I thought going to a Fairly Wide width (the standard on a Positive mentality) would get him more space, which it did a little, but the killer passes to my winger weren't the same anymore because my winger was staying truly wide, past the fullback. As I went back to a narrower shape, the winger was now staying inside the fullback, and making his runs in the channel, and that was perfect. You can see a lot of this movement in the gifs I posted in my previous post, it was very common in this season playing with two wingers.

I did get very good results with an IF-Su told to sit narrower with the Overlap active, especially in transitions it was by far the best looking football I got, you'd need a defend duty on the DM on that side, but it was great. It is my second favorite setup and if I were to revisit this system or similar I'd definitely give it a go, probably with it on one side and a Winger on the other side.

With all that said though, this is what got the AM working within my team and system, I'm sure there are a lot other ways of doing so. Here are the stats for my starting XI and back then backup XI for the season

Yes, note how my 40+ goals striker was injuried for the CL final. Ain't that nice. And those unhappy players which I'll forever believe caused me to lose the CL final are only unhappy because my DoF is an idiot and got them unhappy over contract talks just days before the CL finals. Contract talks he is handling because I accepted the Liverpool job months in advance to the end of season and have no control over it, so maybe it is just my fault.. 

But as you can see, Mateo as the starting AM had the highest rating in the team, topped the assists and was 4th highest scorer, second highest assists was the backup AM, Silvio. 

As I finish writing this I noticed I forgot to mention one important thing: the role of the AM. It is AM-At just as it was before, but I have tried other things, to make it short..

AM-Su: It is the same, but deeper, doesn't get into dangerous positions often enough and sometimes comes way way too deep for my liking

AP-Su: It comes even deeper than the AM-Su, it was better however due to being a ball magnet as a playmaker

AP-At: It's actually really good, I used it a lot during the season. Specifically: against formations without a player in the DM strata or very good defensively minded players in the MC strata. Also a very common switch against teams that tried to press my defense was to switch the DLP into a HB and the AM-At into an AP-At, made playing through the press easier and once we did we had the prime creator into loads of space, this switch led to demolitions such as

 

And

Did you ever use roam from position on your winger/IF ? Any other PI for your wingers?

You mentioned that it did work with IF - Support on one side. Did you put his PI on get further forward, shoot less, roam from position or anything?

 

Edited July 19, 2020 by ThomasHK1979

[dekzeh]

16 hours ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

Did you ever use roam from position on your winger/IF ? Any other PI for your wingers?

You mentioned that it did work with IF - Support on one side. Did you put his PI on get further forward, shoot less, roam from position or anything?

 

Not a fan of Roam From Position in those players since I want them to be running into space, not moving around find freed space to receive the ball into the feet, it's a good instruction for keeping possession but not for direct attacks. Shoot Less is a standard instruction I run on any forward player when using Attacking or Very Attacking mentality, sometimes on Positive too, as I've just had better success on using it on the whole team than running 'Work Ball Into the Box' to achieve a similar effect.

I think the key issue to me was getting my wide players to attack the channels, running in between the fullback and the CB, and that comes down to a combination of team width and player width. I'm a fan of playing Narrow or Fairly Narrow with Wingers or IF-S set to stay wider. Alternatively playing Wider or even standard with the IF-Su set to Sit Narrower. Right now I'm experimenting Very Attacking mentality, getting amazing attacking flow but still not ideal, as sometimes due to the mentality the player rush a little more than I want, but still, here's what I'm running atm. The RPM with a Very Attacking mentality and a lot of runners ahead of him pulls some insane passing and links very well to the AP.

 

 

 

In this example I'm running Standard width on Very Attacking mentality, which is naturally wider, but with the IF's set to Sit Narrower

 

Edited July 20, 2020 by dekzeh

[BigV]

On 19/07/2020 at 14:38, denen123 said:

So it is relative to what you want, right? The Ap(s) thrives on early runners in the box.  It's a "quarterback" role, that is positioned up top. Doesn't need pace, finishing, & in some cases, dribbling. His Balance, Agility, flair & teamwork helps him to avoid the press. He thrives a lot in my 2 striker systems (3-1-4-2, 3-3-1-3, 4-3-1-2). What is common? 2 runners up top. Even in a 4-2-3-1, I've achieved success with it.

 

AM(a) is a blank. He, like the SS(a), is essentially a runner. Feeds off crosses & lays in passes. Like you alluded to, he isn't that much of a ball hogger, so expected to be pressed less.

Where am i going with this, you want a playmaker to thrive? Create runners. Whether it be 2 + strikers or 3/ Even a striker that doesn't clog his area, but plays on the shoulder of defense coupled with a wide player that does something in the same vain(W(a), IF(a), RM(d)). It works. 

Another thing is PI's & PPM's. Playmaker with "plays one-two's"/"simple passes" doesn't bide well with my mind. 

I don't want to invalidate people's argument. Yes, the AI can sit and play like prime Athletico Madrid/Jose's Inter, making it look impossible for your AP(s), but it is a role that can work way better than running AM roles, if you know what you want & how to achieve it, but a lot of obsession with overly retaining the ball & some formations just don't maximize the AM's in this game.

 

Yes it's relative but at the same time you're forced into an option where one role is much more useful than the other (not all the time ofc). Alot of 2 striker systems work because channel movement is strong with this match engine, 1 striker up top (witho move into channel trait or inc in role) has alot more of a tough time than a 2 striker system whereby they are both fed because of their runs. It can work with a 4231 yes, but AM's passive role gives the other players a stronger hold in the gameplay rather than an AP.

Logically you are correct with creating runners but when the opposition sits back which is a fair amount of games (most games) those runners don't "run" unless on the counter, you see the AP pass wide rather than through the defences/midfield, you see them switch play most often than not, their passes into the box isn't as nearly as what you'd expect to see in reality. I dont want to turn it into a match engine kinda debate but the central play is heavily flawed, the AP is built on central and channel plays, you simply don't get the best out of them or at least what you should. A fair few topics on the forums would suggest so and with given proof- central play, wide balls and less into the box. Again this doesn't apply to everyone. 

It can certainly work well given with different tactics and formations etc as you have mentioned but in general the game doesn't allow it to express itself well enough to what you'd want to see. Plus i think it kinda fits will with IRL atm, AP's are a dying breed at no.10 spots, not many play that system anymore and if they do, they are AM's than AP's, ball carriers if you will. 

[ThomasHK1979]

2 hours ago, dekzeh said:

Not a fan of Roam From Position in those players since I want them to be running into space, not moving around find freed space to receive the ball into the feet, it's a good instruction for keeping possession but not for direct attacks. Shoot Less is a standard instruction I run on any forward player when using Attacking or Very Attacking mentality, sometimes on Positive too, as I've just had better success on using it on the whole team than running 'Work Ball Into the Box' to achieve a similar effect.

I think the key issue to me was getting my wide players to attack the channels, running in between the fullback and the CB, and that comes down to a combination of team width and player width. I'm a fan of playing Narrow or Fairly Narrow with Wingers or IF-S set to stay wider. Alternatively playing Wider or even standard with the IF-Su set to Sit Narrower. Right now I'm experimenting Very Attacking mentality, getting amazing attacking flow but still not ideal, as sometimes due to the mentality the player rush a little more than I want, but still, here's what I'm running atm. The RPM with a Very Attacking mentality and a lot of runners ahead of him pulls some insane passing and links very well to the AP.

 

 

 

In this example I'm running Standard width on Very Attacking mentality, which is naturally wider, but with the IF's set to Sit Narrower

 

A couple of questions.
Does it work with AP instead of AM? What’s the avr. rating on your IF’s? And do you set any PI on your AP?

[dekzeh]

1 hour ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

A couple of questions.
Does it work with AP instead of AM? What’s the avr. rating on your IF’s? And do you set any PI on your AP?

Why wouldn't the AP work? I'm of the opinion any role can work if there's support for it to do what it's supposed to do. No role is good or bad in isolation, although of course some roles require less or more effort. The only PI I set is Roam From Position.

It's tricky to give the avr. rating of my IFs as I rotate through 3 formations a lot, and I make a point to have complete and versatile players, only my strikers you can only isolate the avr rating as an IF, all the games Maglie has played on the left were as an IF, on the right sometimes a winger sometimes IF.

Spoiler

Prados is the disappointment of the season, I had huge hopes for this guy but he has only really performed to my expectations as a striker in the 3-5-2. On the left he was played as a winger mostly, and on the right as an IF

Spoiler

Nicolas is the main striker, played only as an IF when not playing upfront

Spoiler

The other players who play those positions all play equally as winger/IF and also other positions:

Furlan played about equally as an IF/Winger, rarely as the n10 and sometimes as Winger but deeper in a 3-5-2

Spoiler

Niang as a LB/LW(winger or IF just the same)/AM

Spoiler

Same for Titov, but he actually has a single game as an IF on the right and can't play AM

Spoiler

 

 

[denen123]

6 hours ago, BigV said:

Yes it's relative but at the same time you're forced into an option where one role is much more useful than the other (not all the time ofc). Alot of 2 striker systems work because channel movement is strong with this match engine, 1 striker up top (witho move into channel trait or inc in role) has alot more of a tough time than a 2 striker system whereby they are both fed because of their runs. It can work with a 4231 yes, but AM's passive role gives the other players a stronger hold in the gameplay rather than an AP.

Logically you are correct with creating runners but when the opposition sits back which is a fair amount of games (most games) those runners don't "run" unless on the counter, you see the AP pass wide rather than through the defences/midfield, you see them switch play most often than not, their passes into the box isn't as nearly as what you'd expect to see in reality. I dont want to turn it into a match engine kinda debate but the central play is heavily flawed, the AP is built on central and channel plays, you simply don't get the best out of them or at least what you should. A fair few topics on the forums would suggest so and with given proof- central play, wide balls and less into the box. Again this doesn't apply to everyone. 

It can certainly work well given with different tactics and formations etc as you have mentioned but in general the game doesn't allow it to express itself well enough to what you'd want to see. Plus i think it kinda fits will with IRL atm, AP's are a dying breed at no.10 spots, not many play that system anymore and if they do, they are AM's than AP's, ball carriers if you will. 

I agree with a lot of this. So, Fair enough.

[ThomasHK1979]

I noticed most of you do not use ‘run at defence’. Is that important?

[GianniM]

On 21/07/2020 at 08:26, ThomasHK1979 said:

I noticed most of you do not use ‘run at defence’. Is that important?

Why would you want to run at defence by default? To get a free kick out of it if you're lucky? 

[ThomasHK1979]

1 hour ago, GianniM said:

Why would you want to run at defence by default? To get a free kick out of it if you're lucky? 

If you see all plug and play tactics, especially Knaps, they are set to run at defence. And these tactics can win you everything. 

[GianniM]

34 minutes ago, ThomasHK1979 said:

If you see all plug and play tactics, especially Knaps, they are set to run at defence. And these tactics can win you everything. 

Mostly those are exploit tactics which exploit weaknesses in the match engine. In this case I reckon it's having a bunch of players running at a defense so the opposition defenders get overloaded and don't know where to go. 

[ThomasHK1979]

4 hours ago, GianniM said:

Mostly those are exploit tactics which exploit weaknesses in the match engine. In this case I reckon it's having a bunch of players running at a defense so the opposition defenders get overloaded and don't know where to go. 

But obviously it’s insanely effective together with pass into space. 

[GianniM]

That's the point of exploiting something
So do you want to play the game, or do you want to exploit the glitches in the match engine running in the background?

But that's not OT so let's cut it  

[Experienced Defender]

@ThomasHK1979 @GianniM There is no need for an argument over things that are not directly associated with this specific thread topic - AMC. Everybody has the right to play the game the way they like.

Who wants to use tactics that exploit the ME - no problem, let them do it 

Likewise, who wants to play with normal and sensible tactics - go ahead as well 

So let's please get back to the topic. 

P.S: The fact that some creators of plug'n'play/exploit tactics regularly use the Run at defence TI does not mean that the instruction per se is an exploit. It's a normal instruction like any other, so it's only up to you whether and how you want to use it (or not).

[GianniM]

Tried the 4231 DM but often found myself in this position - do you recognise this? Literally all players position themselves out of reach. 

 

[Jack722]

22 minutes ago, GianniM said:

Tried the 4231 DM but often found myself in this position - do you recognise this? Literally all players position themselves out of reach. 

 

I always feel like the AMa acts more like a shadow striker. I reckon if you use an AMs, or a playmaker role, you’ll get more of a link. At the moment, they’re doing similar jobs (AF+AM) ,  and you can tell from that from the screenshot as they’re standing on top of each other.

i also like to keep one full back more conservative when I have a front 4, as you don’t need the extra numbers, and the deeper fullback can help progress the ball from deep. With 2 attacking full backs, you’d put an awful lot of strain on your centre backs to pick a pass, with the safe options. 

But yeah that’s kinda weird, I guess you could also play narrower?

 

Edited July 24, 2020 by Jack722

[Experienced Defender]

52 minutes ago, GianniM said:

Tried the 4231 DM but often found myself in this position - do you recognise this? Literally all players position themselves out of reach. 

 

I think the problem here could well be that your setup of roles and duties is rather counter-attacking, whereas your instructions favor a possession-oriented approach. 

[BigV]

2 hours ago, GianniM said:

Tried the 4231 DM but often found myself in this position - do you recognise this? Literally all players position themselves out of reach. 

 

Dropping the CM's to DM's has only pushed them back slightly, the AM-A tries to occupy the space further up staying close to the striker, any AM role on support would bring about the player to be closer to your midfield. I don't see a problem with it.

Agree with the guys above 

[denen123]

15 hours ago, GianniM said:

Tried the 4231 DM but often found myself in this position - do you recognise this? Literally all players position themselves out of reach. 

 

The build up is the issue. Use a winback(LWB) on attack and select only "distribute to fullbacks".

 

Remove "distribute to center backs". 

[Aksi92]

On 02/07/2020 at 16:15, crusadertsar said:

@jozza800I'm seeing good ratings from my main AMC Mikel Oyarzabal he is scoring and assisting equally. We are in March and he stands at 12 total goals and 10 assists in all games. Mind you he is getting alot of key assists that are not recorded there. I usually play him as AM on attack behind an Advanced Forward. I make sure to give him as much space as possible so I play 4-2-3-1 with two DMs and have at least one wide attacker playing as winger to provide width.

Are you using any PI on your AMC?

 

 

[Experienced Defender]

@Aksi92 I had to edit out the tactical part of your question, because you need to start a separate thread if you want to discuss your own tactical problems. If you want advice specifically from @crusadertsar, you can tag him again in your thread 

[Sharkn20]

I play 4123 with an AP-At and am having a complete blast out of it. With the Distribute to PM TI, he gets the ball, brings it upfield, organises de attack and either gives the last pass to a breaking in the channels colleague, or the 2nd to last pass to one of the wingers who crosses the ball.

I used to think central play is dead in this engine, but not anymore, however if the D# parks 10 players behind the ball is not going to be a central pass, unless u open up the defense.

Easily getting +7.3 out of my AP-At so far in the last 2 seasons. He has consistent trait, high passing, vision and long shots, and also penalty taking. Signed him as a free agent btw.

[Aksi92]

10 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

@Aksi92 I had to edit out the tactical part of your question, because you need to start a separate thread if you want to discuss your own tactical problems. If you want advice specifically from @crusadertsar, you can tag him again in your thread 

Sure man, no problem. Sorry about that

[jozza800]

14 hours ago, Sharkn20 said:

I play 4123 with an AP-At and am having a complete blast out of it. With the Distribute to PM TI, he gets the ball, brings it upfield, organises de attack and either gives the last pass to a breaking in the channels colleague, or the 2nd to last pass to one of the wingers who crosses the ball.

I used to think central play is dead in this engine, but not anymore, however if the D# parks 10 players behind the ball is not going to be a central pass, unless u open up the defense.

Easily getting +7.3 out of my AP-At so far in the last 2 seasons. He has consistent trait, high passing, vision and long shots, and also penalty taking. Signed him as a free agent btw.

I think it's been mentioned a few times, dropping the attacking midfielder into the midfield strata has a significant impact the players av rating.

[Sharkn20]

55 minutes ago, jozza800 said:

I think it's been mentioned a few times, dropping the attacking midfielder into the midfield strata has a significant impact the players av rating.

He is definitely being the motor of the team in there.