by how much can Determination improve?

[Ronaldinho Gaúcho 10]

- on players?

- on staff? 

Is there a range?

What’s the biggest increase you’ve experienced on FM20? 

[SebastianRO]

I don't know about FM20, but in previous editions of FM, I have had youngsters with 4-5 Determination that ended up with Determination 15+ after proper tutoring and overall integration in a professional squad.

[Nacaw]

21 hours ago, SebastianRO said:

I don't know about FM20, but in previous editions of FM, I have had youngsters with 4-5 Determination that ended up with Determination 15+ after proper tutoring and overall integration in a professional squad.

FM20 has indeed changed that. It's now much harder (probably impossible) to get those results. 

I've seen a rise of 4, outside of that random rare event where they gain a bunch at once.

[npjones88]

If a player scores 6.30 or less in a match, break out the harsh fines (1/2 week or more) and you may get a determination boost of +1 if the player apologises.

 

I've had a few youngsters improve 3 or 4 in a season using this method. I'm sure to always sub them the moment they drop to a 6.30 so they don't get the chance to crawl it up to 6.40 or 6.50. At least by fining them you may benefit from their poor game. Can also work with Work Rate - but the player must apologise to you after the fine and you will see a boost. 

[Nacaw]

4 hours ago, npjones88 said:

If a player scores 6.30 or less in a match, break out the harsh fines (1/2 week or more) and you may get a determination boost of +1 if the player apologises.

 

I've had a few youngsters improve 3 or 4 in a season using this method. I'm sure to always sub them the moment they drop to a 6.30 so they don't get the chance to crawl it up to 6.40 or 6.50. At least by fining them you may benefit from their poor game. Can also work with Work Rate - but the player must apologise to you after the fine and you will see a boost. 

Interesting and potentially a bit game-breaking. I'll have to test it out!

[yolixeya]

14 hours ago, npjones88 said:

If a player scores 6.30 or less in a match, break out the harsh fines (1/2 week or more) and you may get a determination boost of +1 if the player apologises.

 

I've had a few youngsters improve 3 or 4 in a season using this method.

I asked somebody this question before. How do you know that he improved because of that? He might have improved regardless because of some other factors. Does it happen every time? Do you have a control group of players equally talented and with bad performances that you don't fine to compare to?

[alanschu14]

22 minutes ago, yolixeya said:

I asked somebody this question before. How do you know that he improved because of that? He might have improved regardless because of some other factors. Does it happen every time? Do you have a control group of players equally talented and with bad performances that you don't fine to compare to?

You can often see the uptick in determination the day after the discipline conversation (same with Work Rate). It's happened enough times to me that I'm confident that there's a causal effect. Often all I need to do is issue a warning, but I find it depends a bit on the player's mentality and can backfire. I have professional players typically, so I don't find I anger the player very often.

[yolixeya]

16 minutes ago, alanschu14 said:

You can often see the uptick in determination the day after the discipline conversation (same with Work Rate). It's happened enough times to me that I'm confident that there's a causal effect.

The thing is I see the same thing throughout the season and I never criticise them for bad performances. I do criticise for bad training performances though as well as praise for good performances. To be clear I am not claiming that it doesn't happen because of that, I'm just being skeptical about it because of inability to control other variables to test it.

Edited May 18, 2020 by yolixeya

[alanschu14]

12 minutes ago, yolixeya said:

The thing is I see the same thing throughout the season and I never criticise them for bad performances. I do criticise for bad training performances though as well as praise for good performances. To be clear I am not claiming that it doesn't happen because of that, I'm just being skeptical about it because of inability to control other variables to test it.

It is indeed possible to get the improvements via club culture and mentoring as well. You'll often see a comment from whomever reports on your training about "squad's general character" as well as mentoring when this happens.

I feel comfortable enough to state with 100% certainty that it is possible simply due to the statistical unlikelihood of my players consistently going up in determination (and/or work rate) immediately after disciplining them for poor performance if they respond by apologizing and stating that they will dedicate themselves to ensure it won't happen again. I have probably had it happen well over 100 times in my years playing Football Manager.

Here's an example of Joe Gelhardt from my current Preston North End run. His was one of the lucky ones where both attributes were affected. Both attributes went up the same day as his apology. There is no corresponding comment in the training report about club culture or mentoring either (Joe also wasn't being mentored and in fact was a mentor himself).

Edited May 18, 2020 by alanschu14

[Ronaldinho Gaúcho 10]

9 hours ago, alanschu14 said:

It is indeed possible to get the improvements via club culture and mentoring as well. You'll often see a comment from whomever reports on your training about "squad's general character" as well as mentoring when this happens.

I feel comfortable enough to state with 100% certainty that it is possible simply due to the statistical unlikelihood of my players consistently going up in determination (and/or work rate) immediately after disciplining them for poor performance if they respond by apologizing and stating that they will dedicate themselves to ensure it won't happen again. I have probably had it happen well over 100 times in my years playing Football Manager.

Here's an example of Joe Gelhardt from my current Preston North End run. His was one of the lucky ones where both attributes were affected. Both attributes went up the same day as his apology. There is no corresponding comment in the training report about club culture or mentoring either (Joe also wasn't being mentored and in fact was a mentor himself).

this is really interesting. this is something you can only do straight after a competitive match I imagine? Where about's is the option to discipline them for poor performance?

[Mickybricks14]

9 hours ago, alanschu14 said:

I feel comfortable enough to state with 100% certainty that it is possible simply due to the statistical unlikelihood of my players consistently going up in determination (and/or work rate) immediately after disciplining them for poor performance if they respond by apologizing and stating that they will dedicate themselves to ensure it won't happen again. I have probably had it happen well over 100 times in my years playing Football Manager.

I still play fm17 and do this on a regular basis even for under age teams although I tend to just warn youngsters rather than fine them

10 minutes ago, Ronaldinho Gaúcho 10 said:

this is really interesting. this is something you can only do straight after a competitive match I imagine? Where about's is the option to discipline them for poor performance?

In 17 you can do it after any match to any player with a match rating of 6.3 or lower. Sometimes you can do it if the rating is 6.4. in the interaction drop down the option to 'discipline player' should appear with poor performance as the reason, assuming that feature has not changed in fm20.

[alanschu14]

15 minutes ago, Ronaldinho Gaúcho 10 said:

this is really interesting. this is something you can only do straight after a competitive match I imagine? Where about's is the option to discipline them for poor performance?

If you go under the "Speak About" context menu, you'll see an option "Disipline Player For" and then there wlil be options. If I get a player with a poor performance I'll post a screencap. It is only after a competitive match, I'm not sure if it's "any time before the next game" or if it has to be done right away, I typically do it right away.

[alanschu14]

Oops, I was slightly mistaken, the option shows up just below the Speak About

 

Aaron did the "apology"


I had checked the before and after and he just bumped up to 15 determination (and is now evidently "fickle" hehe)
 

Edited May 18, 2020 by alanschu14

[Ronaldinho Gaúcho 10]

@alanschu14 thanks a lot! I will give it a go 

[Xavier Lukhas]

On 18/05/2020 at 11:19, yolixeya said:

The thing is I see the same thing throughout the season and I never criticise them for bad performances. I do criticise for bad training performances though as well as praise for good performances. To be clear I am not claiming that it doesn't happen because of that, I'm just being skeptical about it because of inability to control other variables to test it.

It's actually something I can attest of still being the case (as other have posted above), even after the change from Tutoring to Mentoring. Just take a player who had a poor performance, warn or fine them and the disciplinary action can increase their Work Rate or Determination. Obviously it doesn't work as well with players who already have good Work Rate and Determination, but in general just be strict with players.

[yolixeya]

5 minutes ago, Xavier Lukhas said:

Obviously it doesn't work as well with players who already have good Work Rate and Determination, but in general just be strict with players.

What happens when the player feels that fine is unfair? Does he still grow those attributes?  I did try fining them in FM19, some agreed that it was bad performance but I remember having a player that suggested that I get my eyes checked. So I just stopped doing it as I didn't want to create potential problems with the players and was happy overall with determination of players. Plus poor performances become rare when you have top team.

[Xavier Lukhas]

2 minutes ago, yolixeya said:

What happens when the player feels that fine is unfair? Does he still grow those attributes?  I did try fining them in FM19, some agreed that it was bad performance but I remember having a player that suggested that I get my eyes checked. So I just stopped doing it as I didn't want to create potential problems with the players and was happy overall with determination of players. Plus poor performances become rare when you have top team.

Unless you have a really low Level of Discipline and/or the player is an utter douche, not much happens. In very extreme cases the player may throw a fuss, which is a good thing actually: it tells you who you need to get rid of from your club. And I'm not joking. A player who cannot be professional about it (note that your criticising the performance, not the player himself and those twos are different) is unlikely to make it at the top level without drowning the locker room in drama if you dare say anything that offends them. No matter their talent, this is not the kind of player you want at your club.

But as I said, those are really minor and extreme cases, and one of the least likely ways to upset a player... unless you took two weeks' wages worth of fines for a 6.3. I usually start fining a day below 6.0 since it's actually pretty hard to get a below 6.0 rating in FM. There's only one time I've ever threw a 2 weeks wages fine for a bad performance, and that was back in FM15. A player had lost an easy ball in stoppage time of a CL knock out against Real Madrid, and we were qualified on away goal at that point; Madrid scored and we got eliminated with 10 seconds to go before the final whistle. The player apologised for his performance and accepted the fine.

[yolixeya]

41 minutes ago, Xavier Lukhas said:

In very extreme cases the player may throw a fuss, which is a good thing actually: it tells you who you need to get rid of from your club. And I'm not joking. A player who cannot be professional about it (note that your criticising the performance, not the player himself and those twos are different) is unlikely to make it at the top level without drowning the locker room in drama if you dare say anything that offends them. No matter their talent, this is not the kind of player you want at your club.

I preffer to get rid of players when they are wanted rather then to force tthem out of club because it is better that way financially. I can afford to be picky when I'm top club but usually I start my saves at the bottom and work my way up so you have to deal with all kinds of personalities. Currently I am in a first Swedish league and all my trasfers so far are free transfers and loans so I just take what I can and they are useful.

I also think it's sometimes unfair to fine player for bad performance, I wouldn't fine that player against Real Madrid like you. I had my striker perform poorly in semi final of CL against Barca and I didn't fine him because we were playing strong team who aren't easy to play against. If I am asked about it on press conference I say that he needs to do better and he will be first to tell you that but I don't fine him. Or sometimes bad performances could come from just bad tactical choice and I also think it's unfair to fine them then.

I will however try in the future to fine them in some matches I think they should have been better granted they have favourable personality to respond well to it. 

My Level of Discipline attribute was indeed 1 on FM19 and didn't grow no matter what I do. Now on FM20 is my highest attribute currently at 18. 

[Xavier Lukhas]

1 hour ago, yolixeya said:

I preffer to get rid of players when they are wanted rather then to force tthem out of club because it is better that way financially. I can afford to be picky when I'm top club but usually I start my saves at the bottom and work my way up so you have to deal with all kinds of personalities. Currently I am in a first Swedish league and all my trasfers so far are free transfers and loans so I just take what I can and they are useful.

I also think it's sometimes unfair to fine player for bad performance, I wouldn't fine that player against Real Madrid like you. I had my striker perform poorly in semi final of CL against Barca and I didn't fine him because we were playing strong team who aren't easy to play against. If I am asked about it on press conference I say that he needs to do better and he will be first to tell you that but I don't fine him. Or sometimes bad performances could come from just bad tactical choice and I also think it's unfair to fine them then.

I will however try in the future to fine them in some matches I think they should have been better granted they have favourable personality to respond well to it. 

My Level of Discipline attribute was indeed 1 on FM19 and didn't grow no matter what I do. Now on FM20 is my highest attribute currently at 18. 

To address specifically the first paragraph and since I'm playing lower leagues currently... Actually personality comes first when I hire a player. In the lower leagues and assuming you're not in an horrible country football wise or started with a small database, you have a wealth of player to choose from. Loads of rejects from top clubs, loads of foreigners who can't find a club in their home country, loads of pre-retirement players who just want one more season, and  so on. There's also a lot of poaching from club to club since no one has a contract at Amateur level and often don't at semi-pro levels, and when they do it's often a one year contract. Which means that you can have buckets of players for trial, lots of players to choose from, lots of players who will offer themselves to you... and basically no reason to hire players who are Fickle, Mercenaries, Unambitious, and so on.

Even when I played in Slovenia (a very small league), I simply wouldn't hire players who are idiots. You're contending with what other Slovenian clubs can hire, and besides one or two top clubs, none of them can hire players that you can't hire. Therefore, they can't have much better player quality than you do. On top of that, the quality of your tactics matters so much more than the quality of your players in such leagues or at non-league level. You actually only need to be better than the other clubs in the league; or even just on par. Then let the tactics do the work for you. In my experience with winning the Champions' League in small countries, I simply spent all my money on scouting. I didn't care much about the results at European level, I just took the money and spent it on scouting youngsters that I can develop into the players I need to go to the next level. I don't even buy confirmed players because you don't actually have the Reputation (not even the money!) to attract the players you need to make progress. Regens are the way to be honest.

Anyway and regardless of the level, I simply don't hire players who have below 10 Determination, Team Work, Bravery and Work Rate regardless of what's available to me. They're not going to perform, they're not going to lay it out for the team, they're not going to respect their tactics. They would need to be so incredibly talented that they have no business at my garbage club in a garbage league/garbage country. And if a player ruins a performance with a poor play, I don't feel bad about telling them the way it is. If the rest of the team was that close to beating a giant, what would the rest of the club feel like if someone 1) did a mistake and especially 2) didn't want to do the effort to better themselves after that? I can forgive a mistake, but not a player who won't deal with it and better themselves.

Tl; Dr: Bar very specific circumstances, I usually find no reason not to be picky about the players I can hire. I'd have to be in a very extreme situation to hire a Balotelli or a Ben Arfa, two players who absolutely are talented... and absolutely unreliable for any club at pretty much any level due to dubious mentality and committent. That being said, a warning for a performance under 6.3 and a one day fine for anything below 6.0 is usually enough. I generally start handing weeks worth of fines for red cards. Red cards is something I really dislike. Unlike real-life, you won't have in FM a Suarez hand-balling situation where a player sacrifices themselves for the team. 99.99999% of the time, it's just a bad challenge or persistent fouling. I really don't need that; and generally players end up behaving well enough that I don't see red cards for several seasons.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Xavier Lukhas

[yolixeya]

Well, mistakes happen even to the best players. A like to look at those like how I do in real life. The player probably knows and blames himself and feels has let the team down, do I really need to kick him while he is on the ground?

If you require them to have just 10 I wouldn't call that picky either. Maybe in the lower leagues but later not really.

I sure look to get rid of bad personalities and bring good ones but I don't force it and look for more favourable situation like when they are wanted. Most of my players currently are balanced and I don't see any problem with it. If I focus too much on it it just breaks my immersion, it just feels like I am trying to exploit it.

[Xavier Lukhas]

40 minutes ago, yolixeya said:

Well, mistakes happen even to the best players. A like to look at those like how I do in real life. The player probably knows and blames himself and feels has let the team down, do I really need to kick him while he is on the ground?

Unfortunately, FM isn't reality. FM rewards you, your player and your locker room for higher discipline. There are many more immersion breaking things in FM, I don't care anymore. I treat it as a game because no matter what Miles Jacobson says, FM does a really poor job at being a simulation. But that's not (completely) the topic of this thread, so I shouldn't open this can of worms. Let's say I play FM in spite of all the FMisms and immersion breaking behaviours. It actually made it easier to willingly suspend my disbelief: instead of wondering why a player is such a douche, I show them the door so I don't have to deal with their antics. I praise players if they do well and warn them if they do poorly. It's just a classroom of overgrown children really.

I don't care for Balanced personalities for two reasons: real players cannot have a worse personality than Balanced. It's actually written so in game, so you can have players with very poor attribute like Balotelli's 5 Determination  who will appear as "Balanced" (don't worry, he also has other terrible hidden attributes). The second reason and linked to the first one: Balanced can hide very, very poor hidden attributes; it just so happen that the balance of attributes isn't so terrible as to have a player labelled with a worse personality. Likewise, an Unambitious player who seemingly doesn't want to further himself can have very high Professionalism, and therefore respond very well to hard training. He won't seek it, but if you give it to him, he'll like it. Just another FMism to take in account.

Basically if a real player is Balanced, it can hide loads of red flags and it doesn't tell you much. If it's a regen, you can generally mentor them.

EDIT: Oh wait, Balotelli is labelled as "Ambitious" in my save and has better Determination that he used to. Too bad most of his hidden attributes still are poor.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Xavier Lukhas

[yolixeya]

1 hour ago, Xavier Lukhas said:

I don't care for Balanced personalities for two reasons: real players cannot have a worse personality than Balanced. It's actually written so in game, so you can have players with very poor attribute like Balotelli's 5 Determination  who will appear as "Balanced" (don't worry, he also has other terrible hidden attributes). The second reason and linked to the first one: Balanced can hide very, very poor hidden attributes; it just so happen that the balance of attributes isn't so terrible as to have a player labelled with a worse personality. Likewise, an Unambitious player who seemingly doesn't want to further himself can have very high Professionalism, and therefore respond very well to hard training. He won't seek it, but if you give it to him, he'll like it. Just another FMism to take in account.

Basically if a real player is Balanced, it can hide loads of red flags and it doesn't tell you much. If it's a regen, you can generally mentor them.

EDIT: Oh wait, Balotelli is labelled as "Ambitious" in my save and has better Determination that he used to. Too bad most of his hidden attributes still are poor.

You have different approach to how you play the game and that is OK. I don't care what Miles or anyone says I'm just saying that when I do that it feels like I'm exploiting things and trying to game the system. I don't enjoy it and I think that hidden attributes are hidden for a reason. I don't care if they have some poor hidden attributes as long as I can win with them. For me red flags are if he is negative influence in locker room, or he is missing training and other stupid stuff.

And yes, I agree that there are many things that can break immersion but I can mend some of that by not trying to exploit it. 

[Xavier Lukhas]

51 minutes ago, yolixeya said:

You have different approach to how you play the game and that is OK. I don't care what Miles or anyone says I'm just saying that when I do that it feels like I'm exploiting things and trying to game the system. I don't enjoy it and I think that hidden attributes are hidden for a reason. I don't care if they have some poor hidden attributes as long as I can win with them. For me red flags are if he is negative influence in locker room, or he is missing training and other stupid stuff.

And yes, I agree that there are many things that can break immersion but I can mend some of that by not trying to exploit it. 

That's what hidden attributes are. Those are the red flags you're describing. You don't need to know them, you don't need to see them, and I don't know them nor see them for my players. I'm just aware that "Balanced" doesn't mean anything, especially for real players. I don't feel like sending warnings to have a positive effect on players is a sort of way to game the system; otherwise SI would've removed that like they removed or changed many features in the past. It can very well backfire and is a testament of your squad building.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Xavier Lukhas

[yolixeya]

23 minutes ago, Xavier Lukhas said:

That's what hidden attributes are. Those are the red flags you're describing. You don't need to know them, you don't need to see them, and I don't know them nor see them for my players.

Yes I know but I'm not deporting a player until he starts breaking rules. I usually don't have those problems. For example, I never had a player to miss a training. Not even in FM19 and FM18.  I didn't mean that giving players warning is a  way to game the system. I am just saying that being hung up on determination and other hidden attributes breaks my immersion. I still do care about it, just a lot less then before. It's is important but also overrated.

I don't consider ambitious to be a very good personality at lower levels because those players will mostly want to treat your club as a stepping stone. Give me someone loyal. 

[npjones88]

On 19/05/2020 at 15:09, yolixeya said:

Well, mistakes happen even to the best players. A like to look at those like how I do in real life. The player probably knows and blames himself and feels has let the team down, do I really need to kick him while he is on the ground?

FWIW I routinely fine my 6.30 and under players, provided there are no special circumstances (young LB tasked with marking Messi / youth player brought in as cover in an emergency). If you are part of my squad of 25 you are an elite talent, usually far more gifted than those in the league you're playing in. Your rating starts on 6.60. You have to be utterly crap to dip as low as 6.30 and in my mind the only way they would is a lack of focus on their job or a lack of effort - the apology notice you get tells you as much as well. I will kick you when you are down if you do not respect yourself and your teammates enough to put in a bare minimum performance.

I always fine 1 week and I always receive acceptance without a comment or an apology and commitment to a) have better Work Rate or b) show more determination. 

On 19/05/2020 at 12:30, Xavier Lukhas said:

Unless you have a really low Level of Discipline and/or the player is an utter douche, not much happens. In very extreme cases the player may throw a fuss, which is a good thing actually: it tells you who you need to get rid of from your club. And I'm not joking. A player who cannot be professional about it (note that your criticising the performance, not the player himself and those twos are different) is unlikely to make it at the top level without drowning the locker room in drama if you dare say anything that offends them. No matter their talent, this is not the kind of player you want at your club.

 

I found ONE exception in my current save and that man was G Deulofeu. The little bastard came to Norwich on a free transfer and immediately was my top earner. He trained poorly, played worse and (after a grace period of a month or so) kicked off at his first fine... and his second one... and his third one... before failing to turn up to work (training) and complaining when he was fined for that too! He lasted one season and was shipped off for 25m. Myself and all my other lads were happy to see the unprofessional waster leave. I like fining for the determination boost but I love it as a way of sorting my high quality individuals, the class character's who appreciate their position of privilege and will break a neck to earn the right to play and the Deulofeus.

 

[enigmatic]

On 17/05/2020 at 19:14, npjones88 said:

If a player scores 6.30 or less in a match, break out the harsh fines (1/2 week or more) and you may get a determination boost of +1 if the player apologises.

 

I've had a few youngsters improve 3 or 4 in a season using this method. I'm sure to always sub them the moment they drop to a 6.30 so they don't get the chance to crawl it up to 6.40 or 6.50. At least by fining them you may benefit from their poor game. Can also work with Work Rate - but the player must apologise to you after the fine and you will see a boost. 

This. Almost felt like a cheat doing this, especially with my terrible-mentality Peruvians on FM19. Even an official warning worked, and even when players said they felt it was harsh and generally had bad attitudes they never got upset over the warning itself. Unlike when I praised them too often or for the wrong thing 

 

On 19/05/2020 at 15:45, Xavier Lukhas said:

I don't care for Balanced personalities for two reasons: real players cannot have a worse personality than Balanced. It's actually written so in game, so you can have players with very poor attribute like Balotelli's 5 Determination  who will appear as "Balanced" (don't worry, he also has other terrible hidden attributes). The second reason and linked to the first one: Balanced can hide very, very poor hidden attributes; it just so happen that the balance of attributes isn't so terrible as to have a player labelled with a worse personality. Likewise, an Unambitious player who seemingly doesn't want to further himself can have very high Professionalism, and therefore respond very well to hard training. He won't seek it, but if you give it to him, he'll like it. Just another FMism to take in account.

All this is correct, but at the same time it's also true that a 'Balanced' player can have a pretty good personality - e.g. 14 for all attributes except Controversy, and a player with a good sounding personality like Fairly Professional can have poor to terrible attributes in most areas other than professionalism [again, especially real players]. It's one of the quirks of having lots of hidden [and often random] personality attributes  being scared of giving more descriptive personality labels for real players for legal reasons

Edited May 20, 2020 by enigmatic

[Xavier Lukhas]

1 hour ago, npjones88 said:

I found ONE exception in my current save and that man was G Deulofeu. The little bastard came to Norwich on a free transfer and immediately was my top earner. He trained poorly, played worse and (after a grace period of a month or so) kicked off at his first fine... and his second one... and his third one... before failing to turn up to work (training) and complaining when he was fined for that too! He lasted one season and was shipped off for 25m. Myself and all my other lads were happy to see the unprofessional waster leave. I like fining for the determination boost but I love it as a way of sorting my high quality individuals, the class character's who appreciate their position of privilege and will break a neck to earn the right to play and the Deulofeus.

SI has a backwards way of dealing with AWOL players. Basically you need to warn them instead of fining them; they almost always apologize. Then you get rid of them anyway.

Yes, I really, really hate red cards. Rarely if never a sacrifice, almost always poor fooling. I spend the half-time talk telling the players to calm down, I even generally sub players who picked up yellows. You really have to try quite hard to get a red card in my teams, so I'll reward you for your effort accordingly.

As for that one time where I fined two weeks wages for a stupid mistake, I don't care it's Real Madrid. You want your team to play and become the team that has the same status as Real Madrid. It's your ambition, your players should share it, and therefore even if you're not quite at their level, you certainly don't want poor mistakes if you want to one day even hope to reach their level. They rarely gift you poor goals in critical moments, why should you if you want to make progress?

Well yes, before you ask, I was indeed extremely salty when it happened.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Xavier Lukhas

[IbrahimAliMaher]

On 19/05/2020 at 12:30, Xavier Lukhas said:

Unless you have a really low Level of Discipline and/or the player is an utter douche, not much happens. In very extreme cases the player may throw a fuss, which is a good thing actually: it tells you who you need to get rid of from your club. And I'm not joking. A player who cannot be professional about it (note that your criticising the performance, not the player himself and those twos are different) is unlikely to make it at the top level without drowning the locker room in drama if you dare say anything that offends them. No matter their talent, this is not the kind of player you want at your club.

I don't usually get too many ratings as low as 6.3 or worse, but when I do criticise them 9 times out of 10 I get the 'do you need glasses' response. This is from my senior pros too with good personalities (fairly determined etc.)

Are you suggesting my squad is full of wasters then?! 

[Xavier Lukhas]

6 minutes ago, IbrahimAliMaher said:

I don't usually get too many ratings as low as 6.3 or worse, but when I do criticise them 9 times out of 10 I get the 'do you need glasses' response. This is from my senior pros too with good personalities (fairly determined etc.)

Are you suggesting my squad is full of wasters then?! 

Either you're in the wrong menu (because there's another one that's similar but not quite the same)... or you could be having a squad of tossers. I think you're in the wrong menu, it's a menu where you don't start a conversation with the player but where you can issue warnings and fines.

[alanschu14]

Yeah you can "Speak About" poor last game but it's not the same as discipline player. I often don't have much success with the conversation either. Players often get upset. Quirk of the game.

[IbrahimAliMaher]

11 hours ago, Xavier Lukhas said:

Either you're in the wrong menu (because there's another one that's similar but not quite the same)... or you could be having a squad of tossers. I think you're in the wrong menu, it's a menu where you don't start a conversation with the player but where you can issue warnings and fines.

Ok I see. Can this apply to U-23/U-18 games as well? Tbh if they're hitting ratings of <6.4 then they ain't making my first team squad on a regular basis.

What effect does this have on seasoned pros/established first teamers?

Edited May 22, 2020 by IbrahimAliMaher

[Xavier Lukhas]

2 hours ago, IbrahimAliMaher said:

Ok I see. Can this apply to U-23/U-18 games as well? Tbh if they're hitting ratings of <6.4 then they ain't making my first team squad on a regular basis.

What effect does this have on seasoned pros/established first teamers?

You can apply this to youth squads. As for seasoned pros, I've already talked about it earlier in this thread: unlikely to do anything if their Work Rate and Determination are already high.

[alanschu14]

To add, a lot of the time you just get "Accepted the warning without comment."

Though I usually just issue warnings. Playing poorly in my mind doesn't necessarily warrant actual fining!

[npjones88]

23 hours ago, IbrahimAliMaher said:

I don't usually get too many ratings as low as 6.3 or worse, but when I do criticise them 9 times out of 10 I get the 'do you need glasses' response. This is from my senior pros too with good personalities (fairly determined etc.)

Are you suggesting my squad is full of wasters then?! 

That's your mistake. Never speak to them! If you speak to them about something they've done wrong it opens you up to the game's dice-roll logic for interactions... 

"Hi there, Milner, I like your new shoes."

"I don't think my shoes are that nice. I'm not happy with how this has gone. This won't be the last you hear of this! Unh"

Slap them with a penalty notice in an envelope pushed through the crack in their locker door and they hurry to find you and apologise, becoming more determined never to let you down again with each step they take towards your office, or they just accept it and pay without comment. 

[yolixeya]

42 minutes ago, npjones88 said:

That's your mistake. Never speak to them! If you speak to them about something they've done wrong it opens you up to the game's dice-roll logic for interactions... 

"Hi there, Milner, I like your new shoes."

"I don't think my shoes are that nice. I'm not happy with how this has gone. This won't be the last you hear of this! Unh"

Too be honest I often get good responses even when I criticize players. I criticize them for their training quite often if they have bad ratings and usually get "I have to hold my hands up an admit you are right" or "I see where are you coming from". I have yet to see they respond negatively to it. But if I praise them few weeks in a row for they training I may get "I can't go through this again".

[npjones88]

you are right, you can get away with criticising training levels. If you go to criticise a match performance though you're opening it up to a game of chance. I've had a striker with 0% shots on target from 10 shots and a few decent chances, choose the option that says "finishing not good enough" and, regardless of professionalism, you still get "do you need glasses?" or "I can't accept that." 

Once you learn which interactions are safe and which aren't you can navigate the game well enough. Just don't ever speak to the team about your title challenge with three games to go!

[IbrahimAliMaher]

On 23/05/2020 at 11:49, npjones88 said:

That's your mistake. Never speak to them! If you speak to them about something they've done wrong it opens you up to the game's dice-roll logic for interactions... 

"Hi there, Milner, I like your new shoes."

"I don't think my shoes are that nice. I'm not happy with how this has gone. This won't be the last you hear of this! Unh"

Slap them with a penalty notice in an envelope pushed through the crack in their locker door and they hurry to find you and apologise, becoming more determined never to let you down again with each step they take towards your office, or they just accept it and pay without comment. 

Lol very true, praising players is the only safe option so long as you don't overdo it. My general rule of thumb is to only praise them once a month or otherwise it's a bit OTT.

This warning/fining option does appear to be a safer bet, though from observations so far it only seems to raise the mental attributes of the wasters who will probably never amount to anything in my youth squad. Worryingly a couple of first teamers who I tried it on were 'shocked' by the warning, though it doesn't seem to register enough to make them unhappy as such.

[Bothan Spy]

Determination is one of my biggest bugbears in todays fm. It can deteriorate inexplicably and has done for the last 2 versions. 

I always try and employ the best coaches available and mentor players but for some reason there always seems to be marked downslide with just this attribute in some players. 

[npjones88]

On 26/05/2020 at 10:09, IbrahimAliMaher said:

This warning/fining option does appear to be a safer bet, though from observations so far it only seems to raise the mental attributes of the wasters who will probably never amount to anything in my youth squad. Worryingly a couple of first teamers who I tried it on were 'shocked' by the warning, though it doesn't seem to register enough to make them unhappy as such.

I must disagree with this statement. I'm in the midst of a stupid save with Norwich where I have hoovered up some of the best young talent over the first three years, aiming to bring players in before their 19th birthday so I can put together a mostly 'Home Grown' squad I've seen crazy increases in DET. 

My case in point is Emi Buendia, who currently sits on 19 DET - My tactic seems to have an issue with wide forward players which means every 5 games or so someone has a shocker and finishes a match 6.10 - 6.30 rating. No matter who it is (Deulofeu aside, the tosser) that gets the fine for that poor rating (because of my ****** tactics) has accepted it and I've ended up with an squad filled with AM who have DET 18+. This includes Emi, Almada, Vershaeren, Gravenbirch, Silva and Bellingham and Chiesa are on their way up there too now! My LB seems to accrue poor ratings in my current set up too which has led to a combined +7DET increase for Lewis, Wijndal and Tymon who have all suffered playing there. 

Whilst I'm sure it'd be harder to shift the DET of older players upwards I've had a few examples since I discovered it on this save - Tettey (30+) saw an increase once as well as Zimmerman, Holding and Pukki, who are all seasoned pros and saw a DET boost using this method in their season as part of my squad. 

[IbrahimAliMaher]

On 27/05/2020 at 16:22, npjones88 said:

I must disagree with this statement. I'm in the midst of a stupid save with Norwich where I have hoovered up some of the best young talent over the first three years, aiming to bring players in before their 19th birthday so I can put together a mostly 'Home Grown' squad I've seen crazy increases in DET. 

My case in point is Emi Buendia, who currently sits on 19 DET - My tactic seems to have an issue with wide forward players which means every 5 games or so someone has a shocker and finishes a match 6.10 - 6.30 rating. No matter who it is (Deulofeu aside, the tosser) that gets the fine for that poor rating (because of my ****** tactics) has accepted it and I've ended up with an squad filled with AM who have DET 18+. This includes Emi, Almada, Vershaeren, Gravenbirch, Silva and Bellingham and Chiesa are on their way up there too now! My LB seems to accrue poor ratings in my current set up too which has led to a combined +7DET increase for Lewis, Wijndal and Tymon who have all suffered playing there. 

Whilst I'm sure it'd be harder to shift the DET of older players upwards I've had a few examples since I discovered it on this save - Tettey (30+) saw an increase once as well as Zimmerman, Holding and Pukki, who are all seasoned pros and saw a DET boost using this method in their season as part of my squad. 

Some comments relating to further experience with this; firstly I can't say that I've seen huge improvements from my youngsters when applying this principle. The main benefit seems to be to the work rate stat rather than det, though possibly this could be because I'm quite proactive in mentoring at a young age where possible. In one instance a reasonable prospect youth striker has thrown a hissy fit after repeated warnings then fines, to the point he started to skip training and put in a transfer request. As a result I've had to farm him out to a conference side on loan as the little sod turned down a transfer to Barnsley on quite generous terms for the club. Whilst from his interactions with the rest of the squad I've sussed out that he has low professionalism and would probably have never made it anyway, I wonder about how quickly fining should be introduced. I've gone with a 'three strikes and you're out' policy where the first two poor matches result in a warning, then the third a one week fine, the next two weeks etc. I wonder if this is too harsh though?

Secondly as I've just been promoted to the PL as Championship winners for the first time despite having a none too stellar squad, the instances of poor player performance are beginning to increase. This is probably to be expected as sections of my squad are rated as Championship level players and I'm asking them to do a job in the PL. How reasonable is it then if I fine them for poor performance when they are playing to the limits of their ability? I suppose you could take the line that this is telling them that they need to improve, and if they can't then they're for the chop. At the same time though I need to keep squad morale high and if I start fining them for being rubbish will this damage overall squad morale in the long run if they start to complain, especially if it's the team leaders? Perhaps as you are Norwich you might have some experience of this? 

Edited June 25, 2020 by IbrahimAliMaher

[Prepper_Jack]

So the road to glory is playing everyone out of position once a month, then slamming them for doing badly. Guess it can't hurt if you expect to lose a match anyway.