Recreating Julian Nagelsmann

[Jeff0801]

On 25/05/2020 at 06:38, Justified said:

Question, I'm not much of a 3 at the back kind of fan but have you tried something like this?

             PFa   PFs

                 AMCs

 

WBs    DLPs     VOLs        WBs    

          CDd  BPDc  CDd

                  SKs

With overlaps selected for the WB's.

Was watching RB today and made me think of trying something like this out purely out of curiosity. Although I might go with a straight line in defence and go offside trap.

 

I just want to highlight the striker roles. The two strikers role is definitely spot on in my opinion. It's exactly how they play, both strikers like to press & also drop back.

I don't watch RB Leipzig week in week out, but when I watched them, I don't see Timo plays an advanced striker as per the OP instructed. Look at the map pass, you can see he's aligned with Poulsen. If he plays as advanced forward, he should be further from Poulsen. Pressure Forward in attack role is identical to advanced forward but not as advanced as it is. We often see Timo went through from through ball or long passes but you don't see it very often and that's mainly because of his off ball movement is just amazing and great in finding space. 

And as for the full back or wing back, I do think they shouldn't be in attacking role, it's either support or defend and I don't think they play offside trap. As per my previous post, I do think they play in slightly slow tempo which suits to their higher or much higher defensive line. 

[Louisking1992]

On 17/05/2020 at 07:52, Hilly1979 said:

Target man role would work absolutely fine with the more direct passing setting although don't think that  instruction is needed when using that role, but play out out of defence doesnt go hand in hand when using a target man as it is contradictory.

How does playing out of defence and using a TM contrative one another? You seem to think that a TM can only be used one way when that's simply not true, you dont have to play route one football when using a TM, infact you can use the role in most systems including possession based systems that requires the team to play shorter passes. 

To give you an example, 

 

Giroud at Arsenal, playing a very possession based style, who played out from the back a lot of the time, they used Giroud as a wall to play off of in the final third which helped open up space. 

Edited December 31, 2020 by Louisking1992

[Louisking1992]

On 17/05/2020 at 05:29, Jean0987654321 said:

And top of that, he's playing with a target man. 🤦‍♂️

 

This tactic makes no sense to me. Naglessmann never play with a Target Man nor he played more direct passing while playing out of defense. You're gonna have a ManUMou-esque tactic with instructions like that

Absolutely nothing wrong with the set up. Using play out of defence and a TM is perfectly fine and works well. I would be included to say that Poulsen is most certainly a mixture between a PF/TM, so using a TM in a high intensity pressing set up works well and is exactly how Nagelsmann played in recent months.

 

 

[Hilly1979]

8 hours ago, Louisking1992 said:

How does playing out of defence and using a TM contrative one another? You seem to think that a TM can only be used one way when that's simply not true, you dont have to play route one football when using a TM, infact you can use the role in most systems including possession based systems that requires the team to play shorter passes. 

To give you an example, 

 

Giroud at Arsenal, playing a very possession based style, who played out from the back a lot of the time, they used Giroud as a wall to play off of in the final third which helped open up space. 

In football manager the target man acts like a ball magnet just like a playmaker, so if the ball to him is on rather than playing out players will look to find him, I’m referring to what happens in the game not in real life.

[Louisking1992]

1 hour ago, Hilly1979 said:

In football manager the target man acts like a ball magnet just like a playmaker, so if the ball to him is on rather than playing out players will look to find him, I’m referring to what happens in the game not in real life.

on the older versions yet, not so much on fm21. 

[Hilly1979]

22 hours ago, Louisking1992 said:

on the older versions yet, not so much on fm21. 

This thread is based on FM20 and earlier versions, FM21 wasn’t around when this thread was started.

[Riziger]

I've really enjoyed reading this. I've taken some inspiration although I'm playing with a much lower quality of player. Anyone tried this now in FM21?

[SixPointer]

On 31/12/2020 at 01:24, Louisking1992 said:

How does playing out of defence and using a TM contrative one another? You seem to think that a TM can only be used one way when that's simply not true, you dont have to play route one football when using a TM, infact you can use the role in most systems including possession based systems that requires the team to play shorter passes. 

To give you an example, 

 

Giroud at Arsenal, playing a very possession based style, who played out from the back a lot of the time, they used Giroud as a wall to play off of in the final third which helped open up space. 

I’m using the target man in a similar way this year. Not in pure possession based system. but by looking to get it to him and allow us to build off him. Playing to his feet rather than the long ball. I do this by playing out from the back. So i definitely can work 

[Louisking1992]

4 hours ago, Hilly1979 said:

This thread is based on FM20 and earlier versions, FM21 wasn’t around when this thread was started.

Yeah I'm talking fm17 it was more of a ball magnet 

[camoulton21]

On 31/12/2020 at 01:24, Louisking1992 said:

Giroud at Arsenal, playing a very possession based style, who played out from the back a lot of the time, they used Giroud as a wall to play off of in the final third which helped open up space. 

Wouldn't Giroud be more of a DLF.  Similar to a TM because they bring teammates into the game but not as direct or physical. I think this makes more sense in a possession style because of the more technical/short passing required

Just going off the in-game TM description (I'm playing FM19 so I'm not sure if the description has changed in newer FMs) it makes reference to the player using their 'aerial presence' rather than 'technical ability' to bring teammates into the game. It also mentions winning flick-ons. I don't necessarily think that this means a TM cannot play in a team that plays out from defence, but I do think that it doesn't make much sense in a possession style (shorter passing and lower tempo).

 

Edited January 1, 2021 by camoulton21

[Hilly1979]

4 hours ago, Louisking1992 said:

Yeah I'm talking fm17 it was more of a ball magnet 

Make your mind up, in a previous post you said it was a magnet for previous versions but not for 21 but now your saying not since FM17 🤷🏻

[Louisking1992]

3 hours ago, Hilly1979 said:

Make your mind up, in a previous post you said it was a magnet for previous versions but not for 21 but now your saying not since FM17 🤷🏻

I apologise, when I said previous versions I meant to say older versions so fm17.

 

[Icy]

I'm working on something similar and have a question, why WB and no CWD? CWD stays wider and roams from position, that are mainly the differences.

[BadAss88]

Anyone trying to replicate this in FM23? Any suggestions on how to accomplish this?

[SixPointer]

6 hours ago, BadAss88 said:

Anyone trying to replicate this in FM23? Any suggestions on how to accomplish this?

I’m sort of playing like it at the minute. I’m still trying to nail it down.
 

I’ve found high tempo, pass into space more direct passing on a balanced mentality in a mid block with full pressing intensity to give me a lot of the attacking style I want to see. 

[maximilli]

19 hours ago, SixPointer said:

I’m sort of playing like it at the minute. I’m still trying to nail it down.
 

I’ve found high tempo, pass into space more direct passing on a balanced mentality in a mid block with full pressing intensity to give me a lot of the attacking style I want to see. 

Are you trying to replicate older Nagelsmann style? I haven't followed his older teams, but his Bayern has same amount of possession in Bundesliga as City in Prem. Last season Bayern had higher possession in Champions League than City. Based on Fbref data, Bayern's passes are more likely to be progressive, City is more likely to play sideways. But in terms of overall passing length, they're very similar. There's also an article where he says: "Pep Guardiola's Barcelona is my role model" I've watched most Bayern games that he's been in charge of and I see more similarities than difference between the two. So imo, more direct passing would be a very wrong approach to replicate him.

[BadAss88]

48 minutes ago, maximilli said:

Are you trying to replicate older Nagelsmann style? I haven't followed his older teams, but his Bayern has same amount of possession in Bundesliga as City in Prem. Last season Bayern had higher possession in Champions League than City. Based on Fbref data, Bayern's passes are more likely to be progressive, City is more likely to play sideways. But in terms of overall passing length, they're very similar. There's also an article where he says: "Pep Guardiola's Barcelona is my role model" I've watched most Bayern games that he's been in charge of and I see more similarities than difference between the two. So imo, more direct passing would be a very wrong approach to replicate him.

This topic is about Nagelsmann RB Leipzig tactics

[maximilli]

31 minutes ago, BadAss88 said:

This topic is about Nagelsmann RB Leipzig tactics

I checked Leipzig's last season stats under him and if considering the lower quality players compared to Bayern, it's pretty similar. Out of the top 5 leagues (98 teams), Leipzig was 90th in long passes attempted, but 15th in short passes. 59.7% possession. With more direct passing, the passing attempts would be pretty much reversed.

Edit: looking at Leizpig 2020 game against PSG and so far I've seen mostly short on the ground passes. Looks more like my tactic with much shorter passing and slightly higher tempo. Maybe shorter passing with standard tempo. The game stats show their goalkeeper was the main one playing long passes (27 out of 66 total attempted), which makes sense because Gulácsi is not good at passing.

Edited December 23, 2022 by maximilli

[CARRERA]

7 hours ago, maximilli said:

Based on Fbref data, Bayern's passes are more likely to be progressive,

 

6 hours ago, maximilli said:

Out of the top 5 leagues (98 teams), Leipzig was 90th in long passes attempted, but 15th in short passes. 59.7% possession. With more direct passing, the passing attempts would be pretty much reversed.

Direct passing is not per se long passing, it’s exactly what you stated earlier about Bayern. It’s more progressive passing. Of course it can contain the option of long passes, especially if you advice your team to not build from the back.

[maximilli]

5 hours ago, CARRERA said:

 

Direct passing is not per se long passing, it’s exactly what you stated earlier about Bayern. It’s more progressive passing. Of course it can contain the option of long passes, especially if you advice your team to not build from the back.

I tried more direct with standard tempo, set highlights to full match. I just don't see it. Looks very different. Yes, Nagelsmann plays a bit more progressive than Pep, but it's still very patient possession oriented buildup compared to most teams. One thing Nagelsmann's Leipzig is one of the lowest out of the top 5 leagues (90th out of 98) is passes that travel 40 yard or more of the width of the pitch. With more direct passing I'm getting a lot of side switches, despite playing very narrow. I'd also be very surprised if you can achieve one of the highest possessions (Leipzig tied to 2nd place with Leverkusen in Bundesliga) with more direct. You don't get that just by gegenpressing.

[BadAss88]

On 24/12/2022 at 08:40, maximilli said:

I tried more direct with standard tempo, set highlights to full match. I just don't see it. Looks very different. Yes, Nagelsmann plays a bit more progressive than Pep, but it's still very patient possession oriented buildup compared to most teams. One thing Nagelsmann's Leipzig is one of the lowest out of the top 5 leagues (90th out of 98) is passes that travel 40 yard or more of the width of the pitch. With more direct passing I'm getting a lot of side switches, despite playing very narrow. I'd also be very surprised if you can achieve one of the highest possessions (Leipzig tied to 2nd place with Leverkusen in Bundesliga) with more direct. You don't get that just by gegenpressing.

You are only referring to his last season at RB Leipzig, not the seasons before that..

[maximilli]

7 hours ago, BadAss88 said:

You are only referring to his last season at RB Leipzig, not the seasons before that..

In 19/20 season Leipzig was 20th in short passes attempted, 25th in medium passes, 80th in long passes. Overall possession lower, 55.3%, but could be down to the team quality. Their passing % wasn't the best. But the overall trend is similar. Pep's City for example is always at the top in short and medium passes, but much lower in long passes. Also the article about him considering Pep's Barcelona as role model is from 2019. Doesn't seem to me that his principals have changed much. I skimmed through Frankfurt - Leipzig full match from Jan 2020 and looks like they're trying to do the same thing as 20/21.

[BadAss88]

13 hours ago, maximilli said:

In 19/20 season Leipzig was 20th in short passes attempted, 25th in medium passes, 80th in long passes. Overall possession lower, 55.3%, but could be down to the team quality. Their passing % wasn't the best. But the overall trend is similar. Pep's City for example is always at the top in short and medium passes, but much lower in long passes. Also the article about him considering Pep's Barcelona as role model is from 2019. Doesn't seem to me that his principals have changed much. I skimmed through Frankfurt - Leipzig full match from Jan 2020 and looks like they're trying to do the same thing as 20/21.

But you do see that their playing direct vertical football right? We're not talking about long passes..