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Hello all

Just a quick question before I post my tactic for help later on today. My question is regarding the tempo team instruction:

If my team are lacking in decision making, vision and anticipation, would a lower tempo be a sensible choice of TI?

For example, does the lower tempo tend to give the player more time to make a decision on the ball therefore leading to a higher chance of them making a good (or better) decision?

Thanks 

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Lower tempo just means that players are less likely to pass the ball forwards. This is where what the game says doesn't actually mean what it is. If u want ur players to play slower u need to set them a lower mentality which will indirectly reduce any risk taking

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17 minutes ago, zyfon5 said:

Lower tempo just means that players are less likely to pass the ball forwards. This is where what the game says doesn't actually mean what it is. If u want ur players to play slower u need to set them a lower mentality which will indirectly reduce any risk taking

You have any reliable source for this statement?

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5 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

You have any reliable source for this statement?

He recently made a video about tempo so u can check that out. This info I initially got from another forum from an experienced FM player which also knows the ME very well. I've also tested how tempo works myself and I agree with it. If u look at the mentality settings u can look at time wasting section the lower the mentality the more time wasting u can do which probably tells u something. Has these been confirmed by the official game developer? As far as I know NO.

Screenshot_20200509-184224.jpg

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Hi @zyfon5, I am not entirely sure that is what he meant.  Have a look at: 

 where Hunt3r says: "Tempo is purely a setting for when you have possession as it controls how long a player takes before making a decision with the ball, whether to run, shoot, pass etc."

 

So I read this as I wont affect the forwardness of the pass just the speed (forward passing would be passing directness).  However, by having a higher tempo it would mean they move the ball around quicker, allowing a player (say a DLP) to find an open man (say a raumdeuter) easier if a switch is to happen as the defense hasn't had time to react..  Apologies if I have misunderstood what you were saying.

 

@Chip I think a big factor in deciding tempo is what is the opposition doing.  If they are closing you down quickly, especially the defenders, then a low tempo could mean they get caught on the ball easily and then losing it.  In that case, increasing the tempo might help.  If you find the opposition is giving you lots of time and they are sitting deep, then a lower tempo will give you a chance to hold onto the ball and make better decisions.

 

That is my take on it anyway.

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17 minutes ago, Andros said:

Hi @zyfon5, I am not entirely sure that is what he meant.  Have a look at: 

 where Hunt3r says: "Tempo is purely a setting for when you have possession as it controls how long a player takes before making a decision with the ball, whether to run, shoot, pass etc."

 

So I read this as I wont affect the forwardness of the pass just the speed (forward passing would be passing directness).  However, by having a higher tempo it would mean they move the ball around quicker, allowing a player (say a DLP) to find an open man (say a raumdeuter) easier if a switch is to happen as the defense hasn't had time to react..  Apologies if I have misunderstood what you were saying.

 

@Chip I think a big factor in deciding tempo is what is the opposition doing.  If they are closing you down quickly, especially the defenders, then a low tempo could mean they get caught on the ball easily and then losing it.  In that case, increasing the tempo might help.  If you find the opposition is giving you lots of time and they are sitting deep, then a lower tempo will give you a chance to hold onto the ball and make better decisions.

 

That is my take on it anyway.

I'm not that familiar with earlier versions of the game so I'm not sure if tempo has changed since then. But I have posted a video about tempo so u can make your own conclusions about what is tempo there. And my interpretation of tempo seems to fit what I observed in game. 

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1 hour ago, Chip said:

If my team are lacking in decision making, vision and anticipation, would a lower tempo be a sensible choice of TI?

Don't fall into the trap of adding or removing instructions based solely on attributes. A cohesive tactic that makes sense is more important than trying to adapt things for every player individually. Especially when it comes to instructions that affect the whole team, such as tempo.

For example, if your plan is to play counter-attacking football, lower tempo makes absolutely no sense, regardless of what the Team Report says.

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Im with @Andros on this. 

Maybe @Seb Wassell can give some clarity?

Tempo, is the game description correct?

Or is it as @zyfon5 claims the risk (tendency to pass forwards) that is changed when you alter the tempo?

 

edit: I get what @zyfon5 is coming from though. As a lower tempo will mean more time for op. to transition to defence. Thus forcing you to play more sideways. Even though I do think that is more due to mentality (risk) than tempo.

Edited by Djuicer
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Interesting and I think more clarity is needed. Tempo I believe does increase speed of decisions and pass directness as a result probably both correct. But the more important thing is, like the original post asks what is appropriate for your team? I'd hazard a guess that a slower tempo but counter attack selected can create quick transitions and counter attacking opportunities alternatively a higher tempo and more direct passing may also do the same thing. 

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5 hours ago, Chip said:

If my team are lacking in decision making, vision and anticipation, would a lower tempo be a sensible choice of TI?

Might be, but not necessarily. Depends also on your team mentality and passing style, because these are directly linked with tempo. 

Of course, all other elements of the tactic must be taken into account as well. But we can discuss them once you post the screenshot of your tactic. 

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5 hours ago, zyfon5 said:

Lower tempo just means that players are less likely to pass the ball forwards

Just a small correction: they won't be less likely to pass the ball forward; they'll just tend to pass the ball around more slowly. But again, that's all relative, because the mentality and passing style also play an important role. 

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5 hours ago, Chip said:

If my team are lacking in decision making, vision and anticipation, would a lower tempo be a sensible choice of TI?

 

10 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Might be, but not necessarily. Depends also on your team mentality and passing style, because these are directly linked with tempo. 

Of course, all other elements of the tactic must be taken into account as well. But we can discuss them once you post the screenshot of your tactic. 

Just to piggyback on this - Decisions and Anticipation are two of the attributes I hold in the highest regard. Have a search for players with extremely high values (17+) in both these attributes and see what comes back ;)

1 hour ago, Djuicer said:

Maybe @Seb Wassell can give some clarity?

Tempo is effectively how many touches a player will take/how long a player will hold the ball before attempting to release it. It works with any length of passing, although low/high tempo may suit some styles more than others, and how they attempt to release it is going to be governed by a number of other factors too.

Decisions, Anticipation and Vision are useful in any tactical set up. I'd probably say pay more attention to what you are asking each player to do rather than the overall tempo if you're looking to dissect individual attributes.

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6 hours ago, Zemahh said:

Don't fall into the trap of adding or removing instructions based solely on attributes. A cohesive tactic that makes sense is more important than trying to adapt things for every player individually. Especially when it comes to instructions that affect the whole team, such as tempo.

For example, if your plan is to play counter-attacking football, lower tempo makes absolutely no sense, regardless of what the Team Report says.

My plan originally was to play counter-attacking football, however it wasn't working at all. I had (in my opinion) all the right roles/duties and a well balanced system however we couldn't get out of our own half most of the time. That's what made me wondered if my teams lower ratings for the mentioned attributes were playing a part in my players before rushed into a decision therefore making a poorer one.

3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Might be, but not necessarily. Depends also on your team mentality and passing style, because these are directly linked with tempo. 

Of course, all other elements of the tactic must be taken into account as well. But we can discuss them once you post the screenshot of your tactic. 

I'll load up FM later on tonight and provide a screenshot of the system. Thanks

 

2 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

Just to piggyback on this - Decisions and Anticipation are two of the attributes I hold in the highest regard. Have a search for players with extremely high values (17+) in both these attributes and see what comes back ;)

I will admit my transfer policy during the last window was poor. Instead of bringing in players who had the attributes I wanted to replace the ones who had the attributes I didn't, I just replaced the "poorer" players in the team based on their star ratings :idiot: Thank you for your response

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I1220609737_ScreenShot2020-05-09at19_41_35.thumb.png.6879d237a056f5483381a97c9965b70d.png

So here's the system I've been using. The aim was to: pull the opposition forward, soak up some pressure then get the ball through to the IW-A or for DLF-S to knock on to the P-A or BBM-S when he makes an underlapping run. I did question whether "More Direct Passing" was the right instruction for this rather than "Pass Into Space". The W-S was there to cross and make runs from deep and the FB-A to overlap him and provide crosses.

Anyway, relating back to my original question, the team are poor in work rate, pace, decisions, anticipation. Would a shorter and slower passing game suit that type of team?

My thinking behind this is if I use "Higher tempo" I'm worried my players are being rushed into making decisions and therefore making a poorer one. 

When I say this tactic was doing poorly, I'm talking 2 shots in a game against the oppositions 22. 

Also, I'm wondering if I could get some help on what to look for during games in terms of analysing my tactic. I let a tactic play out for 3-4 games but don't know what I should be watching, I get a bit overwhelmed by watching the ball and everything else that's going on. If anyone could provide some tips or point me in the direction of another thread/blog/guide that would be great.

Thanks in advanced for all your help!

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2 hours ago, Chip said:

I1220609737_ScreenShot2020-05-09at19_41_35.thumb.png.6879d237a056f5483381a97c9965b70d.png

So here's the system I've been using. The aim was to: pull the opposition forward, soak up some pressure then get the ball through to the IW-A or for DLF-S to knock on to the P-A or BBM-S when he makes an underlapping run. I did question whether "More Direct Passing" was the right instruction for this rather than "Pass Into Space". The W-S was there to cross and make runs from deep and the FB-A to overlap him and provide crosses.

Anyway, relating back to my original question, the team are poor in work rate, pace, decisions, anticipation. Would a shorter and slower passing game suit that type of team?

My thinking behind this is if I use "Higher tempo" I'm worried my players are being rushed into making decisions and therefore making a poorer one. 

When I say this tactic was doing poorly, I'm talking 2 shots in a game against the oppositions 22. 

Also, I'm wondering if I could get some help on what to look for during games in terms of analysing my tactic. I let a tactic play out for 3-4 games but don't know what I should be watching, I get a bit overwhelmed by watching the ball and everything else that's going on. If anyone could provide some tips or point me in the direction of another thread/blog/guide that would be great.

Thanks in advanced for all your help!

i dont know where to guide you but as you've described your tactic id say to go to the google bar, type fm manchester fluid counter attack and begin with reading about that kind of football

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1220609737_ScreenShot2020-05-09at19_41_35.thumb.png.6879d237a056f5483381a97c9965b70d.png

3 hours ago, Chip said:

So here's the system I've been using. The aim was to: pull the opposition forward, soak up some pressure then get the ball through to the IW-A or for DLF-S to knock on to the P-A or BBM-S when he makes an underlapping run

Okay, so you want to play a basically counter-attacking style. Besides the setup of roles and duties, which obviously needs some tweaking, a team instruction that makes very little (if any) sense in counter-attacking football is - dribble less. Because in counter-oriented tactics, the goal is to get the ball forward as quickly as possible - not just by more direct and/or long-ish passes, but also by running with the ball through the open spaces between and behind opposition lines. Therefore, I would definitely advise you to get rid of the dribble less TI. 

Other instructions make sense, but will not be effective until you set roles and duties up more sensibly (especially duties). 

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9 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

1220609737_ScreenShot2020-05-09at19_41_35.thumb.png.6879d237a056f5483381a97c9965b70d.png

Okay, so you want to play a basically counter-attacking style. Besides the setup of roles and duties, which obviously needs some tweaking, a team instruction that makes very little (if any) sense in counter-attacking football is - dribble less. Because in counter-oriented tactics, the goal is to get the ball forward as quickly as possible - not just by more direct and/or long-ish passes, but also by running with the ball through the open spaces between and behind opposition lines. Therefore, I would definitely advise you to get rid of the dribble less TI. 

Other instructions make sense, but will not be effective until you set roles and duties up more sensibly (especially duties). 

This is actually they tweaked version. This is what I had originally 

                 P-A       T-A

IW-S      BWM-S   CM-D     W-S

FB-A      CD-D      CD-D     FB-S

                     GK-D

Dribble less was selected to, hopefully, encourage them to play the ball up further and I thought I noticed us losing the ball a lot during games from dribbles

Any changes you would make to the original screenshots role? Or even the ones I’ve wrote above?

Thanks

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15 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

1220609737_ScreenShot2020-05-09at19_41_35.thumb.png.6879d237a056f5483381a97c9965b70d.png

 

5 hours ago, Chip said:

Any changes you would make to the original screenshots role?

Yes:

PFat     DLFat

IWsu    CMde   BBM     Wsu

WBsu    CDde   CDde    FBsu

GK/SKde

5 hours ago, Chip said:

Dribble less was selected to, hopefully, encourage them to play the ball up further and I thought I noticed us losing the ball a lot during games from dribbles

If you fear losing the ball by dribbling. you don't need to tell the whole team to dribble less. Instead, you can use the "dribble less" player instruction for the specific players you don't want to dribble because their dribbling skill is poor (except for the winger and IW, who are hard-coded to dribble more anyway). 

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On 09/05/2020 at 17:32, Seb Wassell said:

Tempo is effectively how many touches a player will take/how long a player will hold the ball before attempting to release it.

So does this mean that players will generally try to dribble less if tempo is increased as this would affect "how many touches a player will take/how long a player will hold the ball before attempting to release it"? Or are you specifically talking about decision time here? This is interesting for me cos I never thought tempo would affect dribbling. Thank you

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4 hours ago, ScoreMore (Mico) said:

So does this mean that players will generally try to dribble less if tempo is increased as this would affect "how many touches a player will take/how long a player will hold the ball before attempting to release it"? Or are you specifically talking about decision time here? This is interesting for me cos I never thought tempo would affect dribbling. Thank you

I will defer to @Jack Joyce here as the expert.

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In my experience, tempo affects how long a player takes before making a decision. That decision could be to pass, dribble, shoot etc. so I would hope the answer will be that it doesn't affect dribbling, it just affects the decision making time. For example, I play with a balanced mentality, and I've just gone from a lower tempo to normal because my defenders were getting caught on the ball a little too much for my liking. I'm still seeing the same number of dribbles (no more, no less), but what I'm experiencing is the defenders are passing out of defence quicker (more one-touch passing) and my inside forwards are not taking an extra touch before they drive at the defence.

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On 11/05/2020 at 17:29, ScoreMore (Mico) said:

So does this mean that players will generally try to dribble less if tempo is increased as this would affect "how many touches a player will take/how long a player will hold the ball before attempting to release it"? Or are you specifically talking about decision time here? This is interesting for me cos I never thought tempo would affect dribbling. Thank you

Basically when you are playing with low tempo, it affects how many touches a player takes this in turn influences the movement of players around him. A team playing on low tempo can do build up effectively and will not rush their shots as much as a team that is playing on very high tempo. Having said that, a poor team playing on low tempo could easily be rushed off the ball by a better side who can take advantage of the poor sides poorer attributes ( first touch, composure, balance, dribbling, decisions, off the ball) These attributes  are probably needed to pull off low tempo well. 

A good team trying too hard could be better suited to playing low tempo and dragging a weaker team around looking for chances to exploit. To put things in perspective. Two weeks ago on Twitch I was playing an entire season on high tempo, to show one style of play. This season on twitch I am using low tempo to show people how to use it more effectively. I had a game where I started on very high tempo, we had 80% possession and fell a goal behind. I pointed out to everyone that if they noticed my team, it was trying too hard. So I dropped my tempo and we showed more patience and started moving the team around eventually scoring 3 goals. I didn't change anything else in the tactic, but tempo.

Tempo needs to be understood in conjunction with your other instructions in the game. I was playing a really strange system that employed only 2 central defenders 3 midfielders and 5 in attack.

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Thanks every one for the input. 

I have three questions then as we have established what tempo is. 

1. What players are suitable for high or low tempo? In terms of mental attributes? 

2. Does a high tempo suit counter attacking? 

3. How much does player roles impact tempo? For example a roaming play maker as opposed to an advance play maker? 

Sorry for all the questions.

I'm half expecting that there is no straight forward answer 

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41 minutes ago, Thunderthump said:

1. What players are suitable for high or low tempo? In terms of mental attributes? 

High tempo needs strong physicals.

Low Tempo needs strong mentals.

Technicals are always important for execution.

41 minutes ago, Thunderthump said:

2. Does a high tempo suit counter attacking?

High tempo suit a fast attack.  If you go high tempo you'll attack fast even if no counter attack available.  This isn't wrong or right, it depends what you want to do.

If you want to counter attack i'd look more at where/how your winning the ball and what players are in position to counter attack.

41 minutes ago, Thunderthump said:

3. How much does player roles impact tempo? For example a roaming play maker as opposed to an advance play maker? 

It doesn't.

The players attributes could allow them to play faster.  In a slow tempo system you should still see 1 touch passing in the right situation, they just won't try to keep it up all the time.

 

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22 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

High tempo needs strong physicals.

I would say that strong mentals such as decisions, vision, etc are even more important. If decision time is rushed because of the high tempo, you want people with good decision-making and vision (but also others like teamwork, anticipation, etc) because otherwise you could see a good number of bad decisions.

Edited by ScoreMore (Mico)
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5 hours ago, ScoreMore (Mico) said:

I would say that strong mentals such as decisions, vision, etc are even more important. If decision time is rushed because of the high tempo, you want people with good decision-making and vision (but also others like teamwork, anticipation, etc) because otherwise you could see a good number of good decisions.

This reads as "you can only play fast tempo if you have amazing players" which isn't correct.  Are you sacrificing technique or physicals for your great mentals in your high tempo systems?

In slower tempo systems, players don't suddenly get better vision or decision making because they have more time.  Theres more time for players to move around and give more options that the ball carrier then has to select from assuming he can see those options.  Not only does it give your players more time to move but also defenders more time to recover so they need to see options that aren't obvious and know when to take them hence why I value smart players for those systems.

The faster you play your likely to have fewer options due to less time for players to move, hence they need to move quickly to use the space there is or just keep up with play.  The "intensity of the approach" for me means the option to pick is meant to be obvious because of the speed of play and requires less decision making or vision.

Just a generic rule of thumb, not suggesting min/maxing, there will be exceptions to them.

 

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It matters very little how good the decisions or vision are as long as the players to receive the ball are not well positioned on the field and do not move in such a way that they can receive the ball in an advantageous position. The player with the ball will try to avoid the misplaced players but if he is forced to play fast he will make a mistake no matter how good he is.

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On 09/05/2020 at 21:53, Chip said:

I1220609737_ScreenShot2020-05-09at19_41_35.thumb.png.6879d237a056f5483381a97c9965b70d.png

So here's the system I've been using.

If I would you I would check players preferred foots. If you want st sup to pass STL then he needs to be left footed. If poacher is right footed dont expect miracles in left wide channel. Is IW-A right or left.

Edited by Pasonen
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14 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

The "intensity of the approach" for me means the option to pick is meant to be obvious because of the speed of play and requires less decision making or vision.

From my experience I would disagree with this in general. I´m sure other factors come into play but I have seen many players with poor decision making, vision and composure wasting possession when it´s a very high tempo (ex. high tempo in an attacking mentality).
Also, I would refer you to @Jack Joyce above who seems to say something similar ie poor decision making and high tempo can lead to more poor decisions (If I understand correctly)

 

On 12/05/2020 at 18:53, Jack Joyce said:

for example imagine a low-vision wide player that can't see a good passing option quickly. To avoid slowing down the tempo of your team's play they may look to take on their man. It's very situational based on attributes, PPMs and the position of teammates, but generally you're asking your players to make decisions quickly which can lead to more low % shots or dribbles if the player in question doesn't have great decision-making or vision.

 

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3 hours ago, ScoreMore (Mico) said:

From my experience I would disagree with this in general. I´m sure other factors come into play but I have seen many players with poor decision making, vision and composure wasting possession when it´s a very high tempo (ex. high tempo in an attacking mentality).
Also, I would refer you to @Jack Joyce above who seems to say something similar ie poor decision making and high tempo can lead to more poor decisions (If I understand correctly)

 

 

It's an interesting question. Of course, decisions, vision and other mental attributes are important when playing high tempo, but they're also important when playing pretty much any kind of system. I think it really depends on the style of football you're looking to play. You may favour players with higher flair and pace if you're looking to unsettle the opposition defences with the speed and unpredictability of your play, but I wouldn't say it's a strict rule that you need those attribute to play high tempo football either. You may also want to think about the opposition and how they're likely to set themselves up when choosing your tempo.

 

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I really like this thread.  I prefer topics that look to deepen everyone's understanding of the game and it's mechanics.  For example, it has made me think, if space is at a premium when we have the ball - and the opposition is disciplined and shutting us down - it is imperative to react quickly and decisively to exploit that space before the opening is gone.  Think of all those threads you've seen about possession, endlessly recycling the ball whilst windows of space open and then disappear.

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20 hours ago, ScoreMore (Mico) said:

From my experience I would disagree with this in general. I´m sure other factors come into play but I have seen many players with poor decision making, vision and composure wasting possession when it´s a very high tempo (ex. high tempo in an attacking mentality).
Also, I would refer you to @Jack Joyce above who seems to say something similar ie poor decision making and high tempo can lead to more poor decisions (If I understand correctly)

You can't isolate decision making alone. Decision making is a collective term that is affected by different kinds of attributes at different points in the game and its entirely influenced by the system you are playing against. Your team of players could play low tempo successfully in one game and completely screw things up in another.  Personally speaking last season on twitch in a livestream I took an inferior side and won the champions league with them because I decided that I could not afford to dawdle on the ball against a side that was better at pressing than my side, a side that could not be allowed more time on the ball. 

I value mental attributes a lot in the game in fact, its my primary driver for most systems I play. However to play certain styles I also need the right combinations of physical attributes across the pitch. Against superior sides I know I cannot afford to take too long. So I decided against superior sides to play on a higher tempo setting, wider and keep moving the ball fast and attack them in the spaces they vacated while attacking me. With weaker sides I sometimes simplify how I play to make the ball zip around the pitch quickly by using roles that influence that kind of play.

We went to Anfield and won 4-0 and then did the same to United on the way to winning the champions league. This is a video I did on tempo and I also show people these kind of examples on how different aspects of the game work on twitch (www.twitch.tv/bustthenet) I kinda like the idea of answering people's questions on Twitch with actual examples in a game illustrating my points.

 

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22 hours ago, ScoreMore (Mico) said:

 poor decision making and high tempo can lead to more poor decisions (If I understand correctly)

What means "poor decisions" ? What does the player "see" when he sends the ball to a teammate? Does he see that teammate is slow or has no technical skills? Does he see that teammate is tired? Does he see that teammate is complacent or anxious or angry ? Does he see that teammate has a certain role and a certain duty ? Does he see that his teammate lacks consistency (which can significantly affect that teammate's mental abilities) ?

Edited by GreenTriangle
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Really glad I asked this question, I've learned so much from this thread. Thanks to all of you who replied and contributed!!

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  • 11 months later...
Posted (edited)
On 12/05/2020 at 14:14, Rashidi said:

Basically when you are playing with low tempo, it affects how many touches a player takes this in turn influences the movement of players around him. A team playing on low tempo can do build up effectively and will not rush their shots as much as a team that is playing on very high tempo. Having said that, a poor team playing on low tempo could easily be rushed off the ball by a better side who can take advantage of the poor sides poorer attributes ( first touch, composure, balance, dribbling, decisions, off the ball) These attributes  are probably needed to pull off low tempo well. 

A good team trying too hard could be better suited to playing low tempo and dragging a weaker team around looking for chances to exploit. To put things in perspective. Two weeks ago on Twitch I was playing an entire season on high tempo, to show one style of play. This season on twitch I am using low tempo to show people how to use it more effectively. I had a game where I started on very high tempo, we had 80% possession and fell a goal behind. I pointed out to everyone that if they noticed my team, it was trying too hard. So I dropped my tempo and we showed more patience and started moving the team around eventually scoring 3 goals. I didn't change anything else in the tactic, but tempo.

Tempo needs to be understood in conjunction with your other instructions in the game. I was playing a really strange system that employed only 2 central defenders 3 midfielders and 5 in attack.

What's your twitch? Would like to watch your streams 

Ah nvm just saw it. Cheers 

 

Edited by Ripamon
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8 hours ago, Ripamon said:

What's your twitch? Would like to watch your streams 

Ah nvm just saw it. Cheers 

 

I stream exclusively on youtube now.

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