442 counter attack for TOP club/need your advice

[olegmelnikov]

Hi!

First, I can’t say that I have big problems with my tactics in terms of league position and overall team progress. My problem is that my team does not play football that I want it to play.

What I want to see from my team:

I like to play simple football and always try not to overwhelm my tactics.

I want to play direct, counter attacking football exploiting pace of my wingers and forwards. I want to see counter press football on my own half and fast transition to attack. I don’t want to press everywhere and disrupt my formation. My goal is to find a balance between ugly football with low block and high pressing team (not gegenpressing)

How I implement my thoughts to my tactics:

Formation: 442

Mentality: Positive

Let’s start from the beginning and from my point of view the foundation of football - defense

I play with standard defensive line because I don’t want to use low block playing for TOP club.

I use lower line of engagement to be more compact in the middle and to give enough space for my forwards to run.

Pressing intensity: Slightly more urgent. But all of four my wingers have player instructions to mark tighter.

Standard defensive width to be ready for all rivals.

Player instructions for my defenders:

LWB – cross from deep and stay wider

In transition:

Counter-press, Counter and distribute quickly to full backs and to BPD.

In possession:

Attacking width: Wide. I want to have more space for attacking players. Pass into space – is what I want to see from my team on instant basis. Everything else – standard.

Player instructions for my midfielders:

All 4 players: mark tightly

W, CM(d), IW – shoot less often. I had a problem with a lot of shots from distance.

IW – get further forward

Player instruction for my forwards:

DLF – close down more, tackle harder, mark tighter

AF – roam from position and stay wider

My problem

I manage top club and have top players so it’s very logical that most part of my matches I dominate the game. And I see that my team occupying opponent’s half and try to unlock defense with crosses and rather long shots. Mostly my wingers prefer to run forward with the ball and pass to forward near the penalty area or to cross the ball. I do not see counter attacks as the foundation of my tactic. 

Anyway, I will be happy to hear all your thoughts

Thank you!

P.S. Sorry for my English. This is the additional focus that I should put on double intensity level.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, olegmelnikov said:

 

1 hour ago, olegmelnikov said:

My problem is that my team does not play football that I want it to play

Well, you are trying to play counter-attacking football with a top team (Man Utd), which can be problematic, simply because you are logically going to face defensive opposition most of the time. Therefore, they will hardly give you the space needed for counter-attacks. On top of that, your tactic is far from optimally designed. 

 

2 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

I want to see counter press football on my own half

Counter-press as an instruction tells your players to press the opposition aggressively as soon as you've lost possession in order to try and win it back quickly. So it does not apply only to your own half but anywhere on the pitch. 

 

2 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

I don’t want to press everywhere and disrupt my formation

In that case - do not use counter-press. 

 

2 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

I play with standard defensive line because I don’t want to use low block playing for TOP club

Low block is primarily about the LOE, more than the defensive line. You use a combination of standard D-line and lower LOE, which means that you actually are playing with a low block. 

 

2 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

I use lower line of engagement to be more compact in the middle and to give enough space for my forwards to run

That's good, and does make sense for a counter-attacking style. With a lower LOE coupled with a standard D-line, you have an optimal level of compactness (within the low block)  

 

2 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

all of four my wingers have player instructions to mark tighter

How do you mean four wingers ??? You have only 2 wingers. 

 

2 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

IW – get further forward

Your IW is played on attack duty, so he is already hard-coded to get further forward. 

 

2 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

My problem

I manage top club and have top players so it’s very logical that most part of my matches I dominate the game. And I see that my team occupying opponent’s half and try to unlock defense with crosses and rather long shots. Mostly my wingers prefer to run forward with the ball and pass to forward near the penalty area or to cross the ball. I do not see counter attacks as the foundation of my tactic

Well, you answered your own question. You manage a top team, so most opponents are defending deep and compact against you, denying you the space to exploit for counter-attacks. Exactly as I already pointed out: 

Quote

Well, you are trying to play counter-attacking football with a top team (Man Utd), which can be problematic, simply because you are logically going to face defensive opposition most of the time. Therefore, they will hardly give you the space needed for counter-attacks

Which means that a counter-attacking style of football is not a logical strategy when you manage a top team. 

 

2 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

Anyway, I will be happy to hear all your thoughts

I can tell you how you can make the tactic better in relation to the counter-attacking style you want to play. But do you still insist on such style of football with Man Utd? Because your style of play needs to suit your team's reputation. Otherwise, it may not work even if the tactic itself is perfectly designed. 

[summatsupeer]

2 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

I manage top club and have top players so it’s very logical that most part of my matches I dominate the game. And I see that my team occupying opponent’s half and try to unlock defense with crosses and rather long shots. Mostly my wingers prefer to run forward with the ball and pass to forward near the penalty area or to cross the ball.

Well Bailey, Rashford and Martial are all quite similar players who look to use there dribbling to create a chance, typically for themselves unless it opens an obvious option because they lack creative attributes.

If you want more varied play then you'll needs players who have the vision to see something different.

2 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

I do not see counter attacks as the foundation of my tactic. 

Most teams will want to counter attack you, you can't force opponents to commit players forward to attack you.  Even when they do get to your defensive third they will likely keep players back behind the ball.  I think you need to change your expectations depending on the opposition.  Sure against teams like City/Liverpool you can counter attack though i'd be a bit worried about how good your team is defensively to defend for much of the game!

You can still attack quicker against weak teams who don't really want to attack you but more from from intercepting / tackling in the middle third rather than forcing opponents to just kick it long. You need the right players to do this though, the midfielders need to read the game well and have the physicals to get there first and/or the aggression to get stuck in rather than just being content to contain.  Do you have those players in midfield?  Not really besides Luis.  I think your tight marking is more likely to prevent shorter passes and force opponents long, just giving you the ball back to you, especially when your Counter-Pressing which goes against what you said you wanted.  Counter pressing doesn't pay attention to LOE.

[olegmelnikov]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Well, you are trying to play counter-attacking football with a top team (Man Utd), which can be problematic, simply because you are logically going to face defensive opposition most of the time. Therefore, they will hardly give you the space needed for counter-attacks. On top of that, your tactic is far from optimally designed. 

Generally, I realize that playing for Man Utd and using counter attacking football is a contradiction, but this the result of my love to Man Utd and counter attacking football. Just decided to give it a try. 

3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Counter-press as an instruction tells your players to press the opposition aggressively as soon as you've lost possession in order to try and win it back quickly. So it does not apply only to your own half but anywhere on the pitch. 

My thoughts were that I can limit the zone of pressing by using lower LOE and standard DF line + not using more/extremely urgent pressing + not using tighter marking for the whole team. And of course the formation 442, with only two players above the half line. 

3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

In that case - do not use counter-press.

Yes, thank you, I'll give it a try.

3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Low block is primarily about the LOE, more than the defensive line. You use a combination of standard D-line and lower LOE, which means that you actually are playing with a low block. 

Thanks =) Hope you smiled, because in the beginning I said: "I don't want to play a low block" and it turned out that I'm playing with a low block. 

 

3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

How do you mean four wingers ??? You have only 2 wingers. 

Sorry, I wanted to say 4 midfielders.

3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I can tell you how you can make the tactic better in relation to the counter-attacking style you want to play. But do you still insist on such style of football with Man Utd? Because your style of play needs to suit your team's reputation. Otherwise, it may not work even if the tactic itself is perfectly designed. 

I would really appreciate if you tell me how to make it better. I think I should try it with Man Utd, but if experiment fails, Brighton or Bournemouth will be happy to see me as a manager =) 

[olegmelnikov]

2 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

Well Bailey, Rashford and Martial are all quite similar players who look to use there dribbling to create a chance, typically for themselves unless it opens an obvious option because they lack creative attributes.

If you want more varied play then you'll needs players who have the vision to see something different.

Yes, that's true.  My thoughts were that I don't need to much creative for the moments I want to create. I think it's better to show what I mean:

Match against Tottenham:

James has the ball. I scream the house down and wake up my wife....JAMES, just give the long pass to №22 (Haaland). As for me, it's rather simple in terms of vision and creativity: just a long ball.

I think he still could give a pass

And the end of this moment: failed cross

I think every match I have 4-6 moments like this. How should I make my players to exploit this opportunities? Cross more often? Hit early crosses? 

Or may be I'm wrong and I need more creative and technique players. 

3 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

Most teams will want to counter attack you, you can't force opponents to commit players forward to attack you.  Even when they do get to your defensive third they will likely keep players back behind the ball.  I think you need to change your expectations depending on the opposition.  Sure against teams like City/Liverpool you can counter attack though i'd be a bit worried about how good your team is defensively to defend for much of the game!

You can still attack quicker against weak teams who don't really want to attack you but more from from intercepting / tackling in the middle third rather than forcing opponents to just kick it long. You need the right players to do this though, the midfielders need to read the game well and have the physicals to get there first and/or the aggression to get stuck in rather than just being content to contain.  Do you have those players in midfield?  Not really besides Luis.  I think your tight marking is more likely to prevent shorter passes and force opponents long, just giving you the ball back to you, especially when your Counter-Pressing which goes against what you said you wanted.  Counter pressing doesn't pay attention to LOE.

Yes, may be you are right - my tactic should reflect the diverse: more counter with City/Liverpool and quick attacks against weak team. 

Thank you!

[Experienced Defender]

16 minutes ago, olegmelnikov said:

Generally, I realize that playing for Man Utd and using counter attacking football is a contradiction, but this the result of my love to Man Utd and counter attacking football. Just decided to give it a try

Okay, but even so - your tactic needs some considerable tweaking (including player selection relative to roles and positions). In any case, the 442 as a formation is good for counter-attacking football, so you at least have a decent starting point to build upon. 

 

23 minutes ago, olegmelnikov said:

I would really appreciate if you tell me how to make it better. I think I should try it with Man Utd, but if experiment fails, Brighton or Bournemouth will be happy to see me as a manager =) 

Okay mate. I'll give you an example of a counter-attacking tactic that might suit a top team like United. In other words, I'll take the strength and reputation of the team you are managing into account when setting the tactic up.

So this is what a decent counter-minded tactic for a team like Utd may look like in a 442:

TMat    PFat

IWsu    CMde    APsu    WMsu

WBsu   CDde   BPDde   WBsu

SKsu

Note that both strikers are on attack duties. But in a non-counter tactic, one of them would be on support. So that's an important difference.  

Before I tell you which team instructions I would start with, I have to make some changes to your player section as well. In my setup:

- Haaland would be the TM

- Rashford would be the PF on attack

- Martial would be the IW on support (ML)

- Fernandes would be the AP on support (MCR)

Let's now move to team instructions (starting ones):

Mentality - Positive

In possession - shorter passing, run at defence, (slightly) higher tempo and pass into space

In transition - distribute quickly to CBs and FBs

Out of possession - lower Line of engagement

Possible tweaks you may need to add occasionally:

In possession - hit early crosses or (and) be more expressive (do not add both at once, but one at a time)

In transition - counter or (and) counter-press (be careful with the counter-press against other strong teams)

Which player instructions would make sense:

AP on support - roam from position

IW on support - get further forward and sit narrower

CM on defend - tackle harder

PF on attack - stay wider

If you have any questions, please let me know 

P.S: If the experiment fails with Man Utd and you want to try a counter-attacking tactic with some weaker team (e.g. Brighton, Bournemouth, Burnley etc.), you'll probably need a different type of counter tactic, because these teams are considerably weaker compared to United.

[olegmelnikov]

4 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, but even so - your tactic needs some considerable tweaking (including player selection relative to roles and positions). In any case, the 442 as a formation is good for counter-attacking football, so you at least have a decent starting point to build upon. 

 

Okay mate. I'll give you an example of a counter-attacking tactic that might suit a top team like United. In other words, I'll take the strength and reputation of the team you are managing into account when setting the tactic up.

So this is what a decent counter-minded tactic for a team like Utd may look like in a 442:

TMat    PFat

IWsu    CMde    APsu    WMsu

WBsu   CDde   BPDde   WBsu

SKsu

Note that both strikers are on attack duties. But in a non-counter tactic, one of them would be on support. So that's an important difference.  

Before I tell you which team instructions I would start with, I have to make some changes to your player section as well. In my setup:

- Haaland would be the TM

- Rashford would be the PF on attack

- Martial would be the IW on support (ML)

- Fernandes would be the AP on support (MCR)

Let's now move to team instructions (starting ones):

Mentality - Positive

In possession - shorter passing, run at defence, (slightly) higher tempo and pass into space

In transition - distribute quickly to CBs and FBs

Out of possession - lower Line of engagement

Possible tweaks you may need to add occasionally:

In possession - hit early crosses or (and) be more expressive (do not add both at once, but one at a time)

In transition - counter or (and) counter-press (be careful with the counter-press against other strong teams)

Which player instructions would make sense:

AP on support - roam from position

IW on support - get further forward and sit narrower

CM on defend - tackle harder

PF on attack - stay wider

If you have any questions, please let me know 

P.S: If the experiment fails with Man Utd and you want to try a counter-attacking tactic with some weaker team (e.g. Brighton, Bournemouth, Burnley etc.), you'll probably need a different type of counter tactic, because these teams are considerably weaker compared to United.

Wow! Thank you for your fast reply. Now I need to convince my wife to stay at home...and play FM

I think I have several questions but I need some time to gather it and formulate correctly.

Thanks again!

[olegmelnikov]

3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, but even so - your tactic needs some considerable tweaking (including player selection relative to roles and positions). In any case, the 442 as a formation is good for counter-attacking football, so you at least have a decent starting point to build upon. 

 

Okay mate. I'll give you an example of a counter-attacking tactic that might suit a top team like United. In other words, I'll take the strength and reputation of the team you are managing into account when setting the tactic up.

So this is what a decent counter-minded tactic for a team like Utd may look like in a 442:

TMat    PFat

IWsu    CMde    APsu    WMsu

WBsu   CDde   BPDde   WBsu

SKsu

Note that both strikers are on attack duties. But in a non-counter tactic, one of them would be on support. So that's an important difference.  

Before I tell you which team instructions I would start with, I have to make some changes to your player section as well. In my setup:

- Haaland would be the TM

- Rashford would be the PF on attack

- Martial would be the IW on support (ML)

- Fernandes would be the AP on support (MCR)

Let's now move to team instructions (starting ones):

Mentality - Positive

In possession - shorter passing, run at defence, (slightly) higher tempo and pass into space

In transition - distribute quickly to CBs and FBs

Out of possession - lower Line of engagement

Possible tweaks you may need to add occasionally:

In possession - hit early crosses or (and) be more expressive (do not add both at once, but one at a time)

In transition - counter or (and) counter-press (be careful with the counter-press against other strong teams)

Which player instructions would make sense:

AP on support - roam from position

IW on support - get further forward and sit narrower

CM on defend - tackle harder

PF on attack - stay wider

If you have any questions, please let me know 

P.S: If the experiment fails with Man Utd and you want to try a counter-attacking tactic with some weaker team (e.g. Brighton, Bournemouth, Burnley etc.), you'll probably need a different type of counter tactic, because these teams are considerably weaker compared to United.

So, I'm back with my questions. 

I think it can be more effective for my education and I hope easier for you to answer if I tell you how this setup works from my point of view. And of course I hope it can help other managers =)

I will try to be short and simple =) 

My first part of question is about roles and duties.

3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

TMat    PFat

You put 2 strikers on attack duties because it's counter attack: you isolate forwards, giving them space to counter attack and force midfielders/defense to supply them with direct/long passes.

TMat will bring PFat into play. Midfielders will supply TM with long balls and he will supply PFat and left IWs with passes to score a goal.

PFat will put pressure on CB and also always ready to score.

In my version of counter attack I had AdA and DLFs - it is not for counter attack. Other teammates will play on DLF with short passes and this is not counter attack.

So,  generally, if I want to play counter attack football with 2 strikers - it should always be attack duty. And no matter if it is Man Utd or Brighton?

Now I have only Haaland who can play as TM and October, so I can't buy new TM. Is it possible to change this role when Haaland needs a rest or in case of injury? Or let Maguire to become a legend striker? =) 

2 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

IWsu    CMde    APsu    WMsu

You set IWsu to exploit Martial stats: he will cut inside into the attacking third trying to play the ball through the middle. So, role IWsu is more about Martial, in other hand it could be Wsu.

CMde - just defense power in this set up. Also a cover for IWsu. So that's why he is located in the left, near IWsu.

APsu - exploits Fernandes stats. Providing teammates with passes.

WMsu - to be honest I have never used this role...So, he will operate more defensive than winger, more through balls. And will be more defensive in midfield. 

According my team selection: my right midfielders are Bailey, Daniel James and Chong. I think it should be better to use Grealish for the WMsu role, am I right?

3 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

WBsu   CDde   BPDde   WBsu

WBsu - provides angled through balls and better for goalkeeper to distribute than Full back.

CDde/BPDde - solid defense and BPDde can provide thorough balls from deep. Here I have several questions: is it wrong to play with two BPDde in my case? It can be more dangerous for my team? more long passes? In my tactics I played BPDde and BPDco: am I right that to play BPDco in 442 is dangerous because my weak point is near my penalty area? 

Team instructions:

3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

In possession - shorter passing, run at defence, (slightly) higher tempo and pass into space

I've got one question about shorter passing. Why? And what will happen if I play more direct passing? Is it fail to play more direct? or you think shorter passing is more common for fast transition?

If you still reading it - thanks again for your thoughts and time. 

I think your setup looks great, but I don't want just use it, first of all I want to understand logic =) 

[summatsupeer]

5 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

Yes, that's true.  My thoughts were that I don't need to much creative for the moments I want to create. I think it's better to show what I mean:

Match against Tottenham:

James has the ball. I scream the house down and wake up my wife....JAMES, just give the long pass to №22 (Haaland). As for me, it's rather simple in terms of vision and creativity: just a long ball.

I think he still could give a pass

And the end of this moment: failed cross

I think every match I have 4-6 moments like this. How should I make my players to exploit this opportunities? Cross more often? Hit early crosses? 

Or may be I'm wrong and I need more creative and technique players. 

Look at James attributes, this is why I and others say players play roles differently from each other.  Even if he see's the pass (vision) he has to select it as the best option (decisions) when he is a much better dribbler than passer.  Not sure what traits he has off top of my head but that also affects which option he will select.  Even with Pass Into Space influencing him, he's told to dribble often by his IW-At role+duty.  

I think Vision is often overlooked for wide players but if you think of lower values as being "head down" players it might help explain why they don't pick options you can see.  If they do keep there head up and see the options they still need the attributes to choose it.

5 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

Yes, may be you are right - my tactic should reflect the diverse: more counter with City/Liverpool and quick attacks against weak team. 

Thank you!

Against the big clubs with them usually being quite attacking, especially there FBs and your fast players you should create some chances.  Getting the ball to them efficiently and not just giving it back and adding to the defensive pressure.  Defending well will probably be the bigger issue player wise not just tactically.

Against the smaller clubs its usually more a balance of making sure defensive teams who are happy for a bore draw can't just pass it around at the back all game, but not pinning them in and ending up with 60%+ possession when your attackers rely on space.  Though you have Haaland so always got the "chuck it into the box" option and let him do the work himself  

[Robson 07]

12 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

I want to play direct, counter attacking football exploiting pace of my wingers and forwards.

 

6 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

this the result of my love to Man Utd and counter attacking football.

I might be completely wrong but I don't think you actually want counter-attacking football.  

I reckon you just want attacking football.  Play with an Attack mentality.  Sometimes with Man Utd you should just overwhelm teams.  On other occasions it will seem more end-to-end like a basketball match.  You will get that on Attack mentality.  When it does play like that (back and forth) I think you will see the type of football you are after.  It will seem like counterattacking.

p.s. Please do not play as Man United with a target man unless you are Sam Allardyce in disguise 

[olegmelnikov]

1 hour ago, summatsupeer said:

Look at James attributes, this is why I and others say players play roles differently from each other.  Even if he see's the pass (vision) he has to select it as the best option (decisions) when he is a much better dribbler than passer.  Not sure what traits he has off top of my head but that also affects which option he will select.  Even with Pass Into Space influencing him, he's told to dribble often by his IW-At role+duty.  

I think Vision is often overlooked for wide players but if you think of lower values as being "head down" players it might help explain why they don't pick options you can see.  If they do keep there head up and see the options they still need the attributes to choose it.

Against the big clubs with them usually being quite attacking, especially there FBs and your fast players you should create some chances.  Getting the ball to them efficiently and not just giving it back and adding to the defensive pressure.  Defending well will probably be the bigger issue player wise not just tactically.

Against the smaller clubs its usually more a balance of making sure defensive teams who are happy for a bore draw can't just pass it around at the back all game, but not pinning them in and ending up with 60%+ possession when your attackers rely on space.  Though you have Haaland so always got the "chuck it into the box" option and let him do the work himself  

James attributes: vision , decisions and pass are rather low. And to be honest, excluding emotions + I believe that in real match James should act as on screenshots =) 

And you are totally right that "players play roles differently from each other".

Thank you for your feedback.

[olegmelnikov]

51 minutes ago, Robson 07 said:

 

I might be completely wrong but I don't think you actually want counter-attacking football.  

I reckon you just want attacking football.  Play with an Attack mentality.  Sometimes with Man Utd you should just overwhelm teams.  On other occasions it will seem more end-to-end like a basketball match.  You will get that on Attack mentality.  When it does play like that (back and forth) I think you will see the type of football you are after.  It will seem like counterattacking.

p.s. Please do not play as Man United with a target man unless you are Sam Allardyce in disguise 

My idea was to play for TOP club and  play counter attacking football. It was interesting how sometimes ugly, sometimes boring football can be played by Man Utd players.

First half of the season I used Attacking mentality in most of the matches. I had 20 matches without loosing and only one draw. Problems started in February and I set mentality to positive and made some personal instructions and as the result - champion of EPL, Carabao cub winner, Semi Final loss to Liverpool in FA Cup, Semi final loss by penalties to København in Euro Cup.

Now I will try to play really counter attack =)

1 hour ago, Robson 07 said:

p.s. Please do not play as Man United with a target man unless you are Sam Allardyce in disguise

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

In my version of counter attack I had AdA and DLFs - it is not for counter attack

AF can be used for counter-attacks very effectively. You can comfortably play Rashford as AF instead of PF on attack - there is nothing wrong with that. The reason I opted for PF on attack is his aggressive pressing and tackling, so that you would put more pressure on opposition early on. But AF and PF on attack are otherwise pretty similar roles in terms of attacking movement. Therefore, you can change the PFat into AF and tell him to close down more in his player instructions. 

 

3 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

Other teammates will play on DLF with short passes and this is not counter attack

Not because of short passes, but because you need your forwards to attack the space behind the opposition back-line as early as possible when the attacking transition is on. I opted for shorter passes in combination with passing into space and run at defence because you are Man Utd. But if you (or I) managed a weaker team with poorer players, I would rather go without running at defence and passing would be either standard or more direct (depending on the team mentality and tempo). 

 

3 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

So,  generally, if I want to play counter attack football with 2 strikers - it should always be attack duty

Not necessarily always, but more often than not. I always pay attention to the type of players who play as strikers. You cannot assign roles and duties on a random basis. Everything needs to make sense. 

 

3 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

Now I have only Haaland who can play as TM and October, so I can't buy new TM. Is it possible to change this role when Haaland needs a rest or in case of injury? Or let Maguire to become a legend striker? =) 

Well, that happens when you buy a player who does not really fit into your system, only because he is considered a great prospect. Maybe Haaland could play as a CF for example. But then there is a problem again, because you have no other striker who can also play as a CF effectively. If Lukaku was still at United, then buying Haaland would make a lot more sense, because they could rotate with each other (like Rashford and Marital, for example). That's why I never buy players that do not fit into my tactical system, even if they are best in the world (like Messi or Ronaldo, let alone Haaland)  

 

3 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

CMde - just defense power in this set up. Also a cover for IWsu. So that's why he is located in the left, near IWsu

Not just for the IWsu but also for the WBsu. In fact, primarily for the WBsu. Because WB on support duty is a fairly attack-minded role, even if his duty is not attacking. There is a notable difference between WB on support and FB on support. 

 

4 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

WMsu - to be honest I have never used this role...So, he will operate more defensive than winger, more through balls. And will be more defensive in midfield

Yes, WM is more defensively responsible than standard winger (or IW), but still quite useful in attack. And it's a really beautiful role. Sadly, it's also among the most underrated ones by people who play FM. 

 

4 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

According my team selection: my right midfielders are Bailey, Daniel James and Chong. I think it should be better to use Grealish for the WMsu role, am I right?

I would need to see screenshots of those other 3 players, but Grealish should be good for the job. Btw, where is Lingard? 

 

4 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

WBsu - provides angled through balls 

Provides generally more support in attack than standard FB. But again - must be viewed in relation to other roles within the system (not in isolation). 

 

4 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

and better for goalkeeper to distribute than Full back

No. It has nothing to do with keeper distribution. 

 

4 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

CDde/BPDde - solid defense and BPDde can provide thorough balls from deep. Here I have several questions: is it wrong to play with two BPDde in my case?

It would be wrong in possession-oriented systems. But in counter-attacking tactics, that's not necessarily a bad idea. So you can try with 2 BPDs and see what happens. 

 

4 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

It can be more dangerous for my team?

Can be dangerous if a BPD loses the ball when trying to dribble, but you can tell him to Dribble less in player instructions. Although if he has a trait that involves dribbling/running with the ball, he will occasionally do that anyway. 

 

4 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

more long passes?

Yes. 

 

4 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

In my tactics I played BPDde and BPDco: am I right that to play BPDco in 442 is dangerous because my weak point is near my penalty area?

No. You can play one CB on defend and the other one on cover (or one cover and the other as stopper). You just need to know exactly why you want to play that way. Do not use any tactical instruction or role or duty if you are not 100% sure what you want to achieve with that and how it works in conjunction with other elements of your tactic. And if you play CBs on different duties, then do not use offside trap. 

 

4 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

I've got one question about shorter passing. Why?

Because you are trying to play counter-attacking football with Man Utd, not Burnley or Brighton. And I here use shorter passing in combination with Positive mentality, higher tempo, run at defence and pass into space. That's very important, because instructions do not work in isolation, but together. 

 

4 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

And what will happen if I play more direct passing? Is it fail to play more direct? or you think shorter passing is more common for fast transition?

Depends on how you combine it with other related instructions - mentality and tempo in the first place. If you go with more direct passing under the positive mentality and higher tempo, then it can be too rushed and thus lead to needless and frequent loss of possession. So you always have to keep in mind all these factors. 

[olegmelnikov]

9 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

AF can be used for counter-attacks very effectively. You can comfortably play Rashford as AF instead of PF on attack - there is nothing wrong with that. The reason I opted for PF on attack is his aggressive pressing and tackling, so that you would put more pressure on opposition early on. But AF and PF on attack are otherwise pretty similar roles in terms of attacking movement. Therefore, you can change the PFat into AF and tell him to close down more in his player instructions. 

Yes, when I watched matches I saw that attacking movement is pretty similar. 

 

9 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Well, that happens when you buy a player who does not really fit into your system, only because he is considered a great prospect. Maybe Haaland could play as a CF for example. But then there is a problem again, because you have no other striker who can also play as a CF effectively. If Lukaku was still at United, then buying Haaland would make a lot more sense, because they could rotate with each other (like Rashford and Marital, for example). That's why I never buy players that do not fit into my tactical system, even if they are best in the world (like Messi or Ronaldo, let alone Haaland)  

=) My plan was to play with Haaland as poacher or AF with Martial/Rashford as DPFs (tell him to close down more). I thought that was good idea in terms of pressure on opposition (+lower LOE) - like one more player in midfield. But after your help and advice I realize that if I want to play counter attacks i need to strikers with space to attack. The most frustrating thing is that my idea was to create space for my strikers, that's why I decided to play with lower LOE, but I forgot to think about basic, very logical idea that I need 2 players in Att duty... 

9 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I would need to see screenshots of those other 3 players, but Grealish should be good for the job. Btw, where is Lingard? 

I think my best option is Grealish. And for the future buy Ward-Prowse - I suppose he can be great in this position.

Lingard is on a loan in Villareal

Now, after looking at my situation I should think, may be it's better to start new game  or try to find save after the end of my first season (winning EPL was cool).

Thank you for your help, now I believe that I progressed well in terms of counter-attack football =)

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

My plan was to play with Haaland as poacher or AF with Martial/Rashford as DPFs

But Martial and (especially) Rashford do not have optimal attributes for a DLF (regardless of duty). Martial might be a decent F9, but even that role is not ideal for him. 

 

3 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

I think my best option is Grealish

James can also be quite decent as a WM, he has good work rate, teamwork, bravery and determination (even if his tackling is poor).

Bailey and Chong... well, so-so. 

 

3 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

nd for the future buy Ward-Prowse - I suppose he can be great in this position

Yes, Ward-Prowse is ideal for WM role  

[Experienced Defender]

Btw, you may consider the wide 442 diamond formation. I think it would better suit the players you are using at the moment than regular 442. Think about that 

[olegmelnikov]

8 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Btw, you may consider the wide 442 diamond formation. I think it would better suit the players you are using at the moment than regular 442. Think about that 

It's really good idea to have one more approach...but to be honest I'm afraid of the wide 442 diamond because of it's gap in the middle.

But =) I tried to create it. But, to be honest, I don't understand how it could work with counter attacking style of football with 3 players (2 strikers and 1 under them) above the pitch.

I tried to use wingers Left IWs - Rashford/Martial and right Bailey/Jones/Chong

And to strengthen the middle of a pitch by IWB.

and still positive mentality, shorter passing, Higher tempo, counter, quickly distribution to FB and CB and decided to try much lower LOE.

But to be honest, I'm not sure about this... maybe I need to think about it more time...

[Experienced Defender]

14 minutes ago, olegmelnikov said:

but to be honest I'm afraid of the wide 442 diamond because of it's gap in the middle

Well, that gap can be offset with the right setup  

 

15 minutes ago, olegmelnikov said:

And to strengthen the middle of a pitch by IWB

You don't need 2 IWBs. One would suffice (on the right). 

 

16 minutes ago, olegmelnikov said:

Looks like a good starting point, apart from a couple of tweaks I would make - WBsu on the left flank (instead of IWB) and WMsu on the right (instead of winger).

In terms of instructions, slightly narrower attacking width could be an option to think about. Other potential tweaks would depend on what you see happening on the pitch.

You can also tell Fernandes (AP) to roam from position and AF to stay wider.

[olegmelnikov]

5 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

In terms of instructions, slightly narrower attacking width could be an option to think about.

Yes, I thought about it. May be it can make the structure more compact.

6 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

You can also tell Fernandes (AP) to roam from position and AF to stay wider.

Already done it =)

And I decided to add one more option of your 442.

I think I can try to exploit Bailey power on the right wing. Set up Bailey as a Wsu and try to play Wan-Bissaka as IWBsu (though he can be rather bad in this role). But his tackling can help in the middle...

 

[Experienced Defender]

14 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

I think I can try to exploit Bailey power on the right wing. Set up Bailey as a Wsu and try to play Wan-Bissaka as IWBsu

Such combo may prove a bit too risky defensively, given the type of roles (as well as players). 

 

14 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

(though he can be rather bad in this role)

Why do you think he can be bad as an IWB? Because of his attributes or something else? 

[olegmelnikov]

2 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Such combo may prove a bit too risky defensively, given the type of roles (as well as players).

Yes, it's rather risky, but my idea was to use it in matches with underdogs, when it is hard to strike a goal.

Now I need to think, what can I do in matches, where my opponent is playing defensive football and my counter attacks are rather useless.

 

7 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Why do you think he can be bad as an IWB? Because of his attributes or something else? 

His passing is 10 and loss in the middle of the pitch can be dangerous.

[olegmelnikov]

@Experienced Defender, just wanted to say thank you again. I played a half of a season using your recommendations.

What I can say...

On 09/05/2020 at 14:57, Experienced Defender said:

But do you still insist on such style of football with Man Utd? Because your style of play needs to suit your team's reputation. Otherwise, it may not work even if the tactic itself is perfectly designed. 

No, I don't =)

The results are pretty well. In matches with big clubs your tactics looks awesome. In matches with mid table and underdogs - you can hear voices of your players to play attacking, progressive football

But it was a good experience for me how to adapt counter attacking football and I opened new role for me - WM. thanks for that =) 

[afailed10]

- Leave standard Def. Line and have a higher or much higher line of engagement

- Play more direct or mixed

- Positive or attacking mentality

Among other things but i'd start with this