Training playing position/role

[ScoreMore (Mico)]

I would like to know the difference (re developing attributes) between choosing a playing position or a particular role (player/position/role). Choosing a role shows the attributes he would focus on, while choosing a position does not. So what does a player focus on if training a playing position? And what happens during a training session when according to the descriptor the attributes worked on are "individual roles"?

Sorry if this has already been answered, if so just point me to the answer please because I couldn´t find anything about this.

Thank you

 

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, ScoreMore (Mico) said:

Choosing a role shows the attributes he would focus on, while choosing a position does not. So what does a player focus on if training a playing position? And what happens during a training session when according to the descriptor the attributes worked on are "individual roles"?

@Seb Wassell One for you, obviously 

Btw, I am also curious as to what happens in terms of attribute-targeting when you do not train a player in a specific role but only position? Because I always train all my players in roles that target those respective sets of attributes I want them to develop.

[ScoreMore (Mico)]

Thank you @Experienced Defender.. what you asked was part of my question, only you worded it better I always do that too, but seeing that by default new players are set to playing position made me think..

Looking forward to some answers

[Zemahh]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Btw, I am also curious as to what happens in terms of attribute-targeting when you do not train a player in a specific role but only position?

I'm not Seb, so I can't say for sure, but my interpretation is that Playing Position (default/not specifically selected role) will focus on roles player plays in. For example, whenever you play him as a DLP, he trains that set of attributes, if you play him as a RPM the next match, focus switches to those. Whereas if you select a specific focus yourself, player will always train those attributes regardless of the position he's playing in.

What I wonder, and would love some insight from a developer on this, is how Playing Position compares to specifically selected roles in terms of Potential Ability cost. For example, I would imagine that since the downside of Playing Position is that you obviously have no direct control over player's training, it also costs much less. The way I see it, is the more focus you select (the more attributes you try to improve), the bigger the cost.

Also, RDF recently posted a thread on this forum, which is now sadly deleted, where he demonstrates some amazing development progress by not selecting any specific roles in individual training, but instead only selecting Additional Focus and trying to improve player's weaknesses very surgically. The attributes he focused on skyrocketed over a very short period of time and I would imagine that's because he wasn't wasting his Potential Ability points on a wide range of attributes (selecting specific roles), so it instead all went into Additional Focus he selected. For more, Google RDF Development Guide & Training Schedules, since mods keep removing 3rd party links.

Again, that's my personal interpretation of it, I don't know the exact math behind the game.

Edited May 8, 2020 by Zemahh

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, ScoreMore (Mico) said:

what you asked was part of my question, only you worded it better

Well, I actually did ask the same question like you, only emphasized that particular part of it as the one that I am also curious about  

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Zemahh said:

I'm not Seb, so I can't say for sure, but my interpretation is that Playing Position (default/not specifically selected role) will focus on roles player plays in. For example, whenever you play him as a DLP, he trains that set of attributes, if you play him as a RPM the next match, focus switches to those. Whereas if you select a specific focus yourself, player will always train those attributes regardless of the position he's playing in

Yeah, makes sense. Although none of us can be 100% sure without Seb's confirmation anyway. 

[Seb Wassell]

On 08/05/2020 at 07:56, ScoreMore (Mico) said:

I would like to know the difference (re developing attributes) between choosing a playing position or a particular role (player/position/role). Choosing a role shows the attributes he would focus on, while choosing a position does not. So what does a player focus on if training a playing position?

Playing Position is an aggregate of the broad range of attributes for that position, with no specific role. It is also a lighter workload than training a specific role.

On 08/05/2020 at 07:56, ScoreMore (Mico) said:

And what happens during a training session when according to the descriptor the attributes worked on are "individual roles"?

"Individual Roles" is when those roles get some direct love. This is when the player trains specifically in that role as opposed to on the attributes designated as part of the session (based on training unit) that has been assigned at team level. They won't ignore their designated role when taking part in team/unit training, but it is the session that dictates where their effort goes. The better the coach then covering that area, and the better the training facilities, the more effective it will be. Almost all default in-season schedules include time for the player to focus on their specific individual role.

[ScoreMore (Mico)]

Thank you for that great answer @Seb Wassell. What I meant in the 2nd part you answered was what happens in the individual roles training when a player is assigned to train a position (and therefore doesn´t have a role assigned). Does he train in the role he usually plays? Or something else? If ex a player is assigned to train as a central midfielder and the formation has 2 different roles assigned to central midfielders, which role would he train?

[Seb Wassell]

4 hours ago, ScoreMore (Mico) said:

Thank you for that great answer @Seb Wassell. What I meant in the 2nd part you answered was what happens in the individual roles training when a player is assigned to train a position (and therefore doesn´t have a role assigned). Does he train in the role he usually plays? Or something else? If ex a player is assigned to train as a central midfielder and the formation has 2 different roles assigned to central midfielders, which role would he train?

Ah so that is what I was answering, although clearly not well enough! 

Training position alone means they are training in all the attributes for that position but to a lighter degree. They are not focusing on a single role. Training in a position alone is a lighter workload than training a specific role and covers a broader range of skills but to a lesser degree. It'll default to where they play.

[ScoreMore (Mico)]

Oh I think now I get it @Seb Wassell. Am I understanding correctly that the difference between setting training as "playing position" and choosing a particular role only applies to those sessions when the attribute descriptor is set to "individual roles"? And in these cases assigning a role focuses particularly on that role´s attributes while assigning a playing position trains (less) a broader set of attributes?
This makes sense of something which has been on my mind for ages! Thank you

[Mardy]

I’ve been having a play around with this. I’ve always set players to train roles and positions, however I’ve recently changed to train playing position, with focus on a specific area and double intensity.

Had some really impressive improvement. It’s particularly good if a player is only missing one or two key attributes. For instance a young full back with incredible tackling but poor crossing can see his crossing improved much faster than normal

 

I think I will use a combination of both, position/role for retraining a position and playing position when I want to target 1 or 2 attributes at double intensity 

[ScoreMore (Mico)]

Sounds like something I´m going to try as well. That and playing around with the schedules.

[dekzeh]

23 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

Ah so that is what I was answering, although clearly not well enough! 

Training position alone means they are training in all the attributes for that position but to a lighter degree. They are not focusing on a single role. Training in a position alone is a lighter workload than training a specific role and covers a broader range of skills but to a lesser degree. It'll default to where they play.

This is very interesting and I think changes what I want to do with my players.

A lot of people, me included, set players to train in the more 'complete' roles, like Roaming Playmakers, B2B, Complete Forwards, etc, in order to get the most well-rounded and complete players, but if I understand what you're saying correctly leaving a player to train 'Playing Position' would actually make them train an even wider set of attributes, thus becoming more complete? Is that correct?

[Seb Wassell]

1 hour ago, dekzeh said:

This is very interesting and I think changes what I want to do with my players.

A lot of people, me included, set players to train in the more 'complete' roles, like Roaming Playmakers, B2B, Complete Forwards, etc, in order to get the most well-rounded and complete players, but if I understand what you're saying correctly leaving a player to train 'Playing Position' would actually make them train an even wider set of attributes, thus becoming more complete? Is that correct?

More attributes means each individual attribute will receive less attention though. Question is do you want to attempt to train a lot of things a little or a few things a lot?

[olegmelnikov]

On 10/05/2020 at 00:49, Seb Wassell said:

Training position alone means they are training in all the attributes for that position but to a lighter degree. They are not focusing on a single role. Training in a position alone is a lighter workload than training a specific role and covers a broader range of skills but to a lesser degree. It'll default to where they play.

In this case, for example: I want to improve crossing of my left Wing back. Am I right that the most effective training is to put him on training the position - defender left and add additional focus on crossing, than train him as wing back support with additional focus on crossing? Or it's the same in terms of crossing training?

[Zemahh]

1 hour ago, olegmelnikov said:

Am I right that the most effective training is to put him on training the position - defender left and add additional focus on crossing, than train him as wing back support with additional focus on crossing?

Going by RDF Development Guide (Google it, I can't post 3rd party links here), training him on Playing Position (no special focus, which I assume has the lowest Potential Ability cost), Additional Focus on Crossing and Intensity on Automatic (80+% and 90+% condition = Double Intensity), would probably result in quickest growth for Crossing and Technique.

Here's one of his examples, he managed to get some pretty insane development in a short period of time, using only Additional Focus in combination with custom training schedules:

If @Seb Wassell could confirm/deny that, that would be fantastic. 

Edited May 11, 2020 by Zemahh

[olegmelnikov]

1 hour ago, Zemahh said:

Going by RDF Development Guide (Google it, I can't post 3rd party links here), training him on Playing Position (no special focus, which I assume has the lowest Potential Ability cost), Additional Focus on Crossing and Intensity on Automatic (80+% and 90+% condition = Double Intensity), would probably result in quickest growth for Crossing and Technique.

Thank you! That's interesting and rather logical: overall train is lower and focusing on individual can give much more impact on the focus. 

 

1 hour ago, Zemahh said:

If @Seb Wassell could confirm/deny that, that would be fantastic.

I think it's our turn to research it =)

[Seb Wassell]

8 hours ago, olegmelnikov said:

In this case, for example: I want to improve crossing of my left Wing back. Am I right that the most effective training is to put him on training the position - defender left and add additional focus on crossing, than train him as wing back support with additional focus on crossing? Or it's the same in terms of crossing training?

That's one I'd prefer to leave to you and your judgement/experience if you don't mind 

[Jack722]

On 09/05/2020 at 22:49, Seb Wassell said:

Ah so that is what I was answering, although clearly not well enough! 

Training position alone means they are training in all the attributes for that position but to a lighter degree. They are not focusing on a single role. Training in a position alone is a lighter workload than training a specific role and covers a broader range of skills but to a lesser degree. It'll default to where they play.

What does this mean in terms of position/role/duty familiarity? Is it expected to train someone with a nailed down first team position, like Salah as IFa (RW) in their specific role, while train a squad player as playing position so that they can fill in semi effictively in different roles when needed?

[danej]

From what I have learned since creating this post, the position/role/duty familiarity is quite unimportant. It compares a player to himself, to his best position/role/duty on the pitch. Also p/r/d's that you don't use in your tactics. So basically it doesn't matter if the players relatively speaking is much better in some p/r/d that you don't use or where you prefer another player. It doesn't affect what matter, his ability in the p/r/d that you give him. In other words, it barely matters if the players is better in some other theoretical p/r/d.

[wazza]

On 09/05/2020 at 22:49, Seb Wassell said:

Training position alone means they are training in all the attributes for that position but to a lighter degree. They are not focusing on a single role. Training in a position alone is a lighter workload than training a specific role and covers a broader range of skills but to a lesser degree. It'll default to where they play.

Just been reading this interesting thread to improve my training methods.  For my U18 team I have decided to train the individual training myself and have told the players to train in there playing position - based on the above this will be a lighter session for them and will train more attributes so that they will become a more rounded player as more attributes will be trained which I believe is correct to start with for young players - currently I am in the Championship and my UI8 squad have attributes between 3 - 10 on all categories.  My intention is once these eventually start to rise I may then look at putting them on more specific role duty focus to suit the players.  I have also used my coach reports to determine the best Additional focus attributes I should look at for each player as when the attributes are all low it can be difficult to determine which is best to pick.  Most of them needed strength training.

One question when using the playing position for training - I have an appointed U18 manager for the team who runs the general training and also picks the team.  What I noticed is that when I selected the playing position the manager has played a player as a DC but the playing position focus came up as DL on some of the players or DR or some DMCRS playing position focus comes as MC.  Im not sure why this is the case - it could be because its the more natural position for the player when he can play in 2 positions or it could be that its the U18 Assistant managers best position for him. 

Does this matter and will the player actually train in the position selected by the U18 manager (DC) or will he train in the default playing focus (DL) as shown on the training screen @Seb Wassell would you please be able to advise as if necessary I can go and change the focuses to be more specific and to suit where the U18 manager is playing them. 

For my First Team I have the individual focus to be more specific in that I will train the Position Role and Duty to suit the role and duty of the tactic.  Some players though can play AML AMC and AMR, for those I have them set to just train in the playing position - from my understanding this will train them in the last position played ie 1 week maybe AML if played there and another AMR if played there - even though the focus says different on the page when set up as it defaults

Thanks

Edited January 3, 2023 by wazza