The usual 'couldn't hit a barn door' thread

[IbrahimAliMaher]

I feel like such a cliche, but my team is having serious difficulties in sticking the round thing between the white goalposty things 

After sitting through the third away game in a row where we've dominated the chances and struggled to score (38 shots for us to fluke a late headed winner from a corner!) enough is enough. I checked the league stats and we have the second highest shots on target in the division, yet the joint worst conversion rate! It's pretty clear then what the problem is...

So the scenario...I'm in my first full season with Bristol City in the Championship (FM19). I took over mid season last year and after some experimentation found that a short passing based, high tempo counter attack style  whilst sitting off the opposition seem to be most effective. Since then I've revamped the squad and tried to evolve the tactical style but to little effect. I play either 4-1-4-1 or 4-2-3-1 depending on opposition. At the moment we line up as in the screenshot. I've tried playing a more front-foot style high press based game, players didn't like it. I've tried lowering the tempo to improve conversion rate, no joy. More width to break down more stubborn defences, no good.

Away this tactic isn't too bad, as teams attack us more giving us more opportunity to counter and make chances. At home we've struggled as sitting off teams doesn't work when they turn up and park the bus. We are by no means one of the better sides in the division, in fact the team report says we are pretty useless at most things. The only real strength we seem to have is that I signed a lot of fast attackers, but we seem to be good at a short passing game so no point playing direct.

Any suggestion as to how to improve conversion rate?

[jozza800]

I wouldn't bother. It's a fundamental flaw in the game. 

SI either need to tone down the amount of chances that are created or show the 'misses' differently because I'm sick of watching the best forwards in the division miss from point blank range 4 or 5 times again and again.

I've tried all sorts. 1 up top, two up top. High press, creative, wing play, short, direct, patient, high tempo. 

The outcome is virtually identical. 

Each match has become a bit of a grind. 

 

[interferemadly]

Well, yesterday I had one match with 4 clear cut chances (3 one on one with the GK) and my striker with 15 finish, 15 technique, 14 first touch and 14 composure missed all of them 

The GK was just average 

[auhsoj]

2 hours ago, IbrahimAliMaher said:

I feel like such a cliche, but my team is having serious difficulties in sticking the round thing between the white goalposty things 

After sitting through the third away game in a row where we've dominated the chances and struggled to score (38 shots for us to fluke a late headed winner from a corner!) enough is enough. I checked the league stats and we have the second highest shots on target in the division, yet the joint worst conversion rate! It's pretty clear then what the problem is...

So the scenario...I'm in my first full season with Bristol City in the Championship (FM19). I took over mid season last year and after some experimentation found that a short passing based, high tempo counter attack style  whilst sitting off the opposition seem to be most effective. Since then I've revamped the squad and tried to evolve the tactical style but to little effect. I play either 4-1-4-1 or 4-2-3-1 depending on opposition. At the moment we line up as in the screenshot. I've tried playing a more front-foot style high press based game, players didn't like it. I've tried lowering the tempo to improve conversion rate, no joy. More width to break down more stubborn defences, no good.

Away this tactic isn't too bad, as teams attack us more giving us more opportunity to counter and make chances. At home we've struggled as sitting off teams doesn't work when they turn up and park the bus. We are by no means one of the better sides in the division, in fact the team report says we are pretty useless at most things. The only real strength we seem to have is that I signed a lot of fast attackers, but we seem to be good at a short passing game so no point playing direct.

Any suggestion as to how to improve conversion rate?

Where are your shots coming from? Are they mostly from outside the box? 

 

Good choice of team btw 

Edited April 27, 2020 by auhsoj

[zyfon5]

3 hours ago, IbrahimAliMaher said:

I feel like such a cliche, but my team is having serious difficulties in sticking the round thing between the white goalposty things 

After sitting through the third away game in a row where we've dominated the chances and struggled to score (38 shots for us to fluke a late headed winner from a corner!) enough is enough. I checked the league stats and we have the second highest shots on target in the division, yet the joint worst conversion rate! It's pretty clear then what the problem is...

So the scenario...I'm in my first full season with Bristol City in the Championship (FM19). I took over mid season last year and after some experimentation found that a short passing based, high tempo counter attack style  whilst sitting off the opposition seem to be most effective. Since then I've revamped the squad and tried to evolve the tactical style but to little effect. I play either 4-1-4-1 or 4-2-3-1 depending on opposition. At the moment we line up as in the screenshot. I've tried playing a more front-foot style high press based game, players didn't like it. I've tried lowering the tempo to improve conversion rate, no joy. More width to break down more stubborn defences, no good.

Away this tactic isn't too bad, as teams attack us more giving us more opportunity to counter and make chances. At home we've struggled as sitting off teams doesn't work when they turn up and park the bus. We are by no means one of the better sides in the division, in fact the team report says we are pretty useless at most things. The only real strength we seem to have is that I signed a lot of fast attackers, but we seem to be good at a short passing game so no point playing direct.

Any suggestion as to how to improve conversion rate?

Can u post ur shots distribution from any match that u find dreadful? U can find it in the match analysis. Ur tactics has a lot of conflicting instructions so I will need to look into ur shots distribution to get a clear idea what is the problem

[GianniM]

How would you imagine shorter passing + hit early crosses + focus play through the middle to work though? Think about your instructions and how they will interact when combined. 

[IbrahimAliMaher]

8 hours ago, zyfon5 said:

Can u post ur shots distribution from any match that u find dreadful? U can find it in the match analysis. Ur tactics has a lot of conflicting instructions so I will need to look into ur shots distribution to get a clear idea what is the problem

Here you go. A couple of these were actually wins but in both matches we should've been out of sight by half time. Two are my recent away game, the other my last home game.

I note that we are terrible at long shots (not intentional as part of my squad building, it just happened) so we tend not to shoot from outside the box.

 

Edited April 27, 2020 by IbrahimAliMaher
Further musings

[IbrahimAliMaher]

3 hours ago, GianniM said:

How would you imagine shorter passing + hit early crosses + focus play through the middle to work though? Think about your instructions and how they will interact when combined. 

The tactic is premised around sit deep and soak up pressure, then get the ball forward quickly and accurately on the break. I guess it would aim to be Leicester title winning season-esque.

Tbf the 'play through the middle' is a recent addition on the insistence of my assistant. That may have made things worse however. Also the 'hit early crosses' I only play when I'm playing a pacey striker and I think he can outpace the opposition CBs, otherwise it's 'work ball into box'. My assistant also loves hit early crosses, I tend to reject a lot of his suggestions unless they seem to make some sense (e.g. he often recommends' get stuck in' and 'stay on feet' at the same time!)

[GianniM]

So lots of long/medium distance shots. You need to get closer to the goal. 

[zyfon5]

6 minutes ago, IbrahimAliMaher said:

Here you go. A couple of these were actually wins but in both matches we should've been out of sight by half time. Two are my recent away game, the other my last home game.

 

 

the first 2 screenshots where the opponent gk had like 12 saves and 7 saves is definitely nuts though but u still win by 1-0 from like 5-6 good chances so no complaints i guess. 3rd screenshot not surprised that u lose 1-0. curious question do u get a lot of shot from headers? coz from ur tactics where u have hit early cross and playing with two wingbacks i will think that a lot of those shots are from headers.

[IbrahimAliMaher]

11 minutes ago, GianniM said:

So lots of long/medium distance shots. You need to get closer to the goal. 

I can try and tweak that but they still miss a lot of chances in the penalty box, especially one on ones

[zyfon5]

6 minutes ago, IbrahimAliMaher said:

The tactic is premised around sit deep and soak up pressure, then get the ball forward quickly and accurately on the break. I guess it would aim to be Leicester title winning season-esque.

Tbf the 'play through the middle' is a recent addition on the insistence of my assistant. That may have made things worse however. Also the 'hit early crosses' I only play when I'm playing a pacey striker and I think he can outpace the opposition CBs, otherwise it's 'work ball into box'. My assistant also loves hit early crosses, I tend to reject a lot of his suggestions unless they seem to make some sense (e.g. he often recommends' get stuck in' and 'stay on feet' at the same time!)

but ur tactics can definitely use some tweaking if u want to sit deep and soak pressure. for example, u have defend wider and counter press which is exact opposite of a tactic that wants to sit deep and soak pressure. and hit early cross is maybe the most misunderstood instruction here. u only want to use it when u want to hit crosses as early as possible due to the risk of wing players getting isolated or u have numbers advantage in the box during a counter and want to quickly exploit it before the opponents can defend properly. hit early cross will reduce the quality of ur cross generally so u want to use it cautiously. if u have pacey forwards u want 'pass into space' especially if u can exploit the space behind and from ur tactic u have an advanced playmaker that can hit these passes. play through the middle will increase the mentality of players in the middle axis apart from the wing players.

[GianniM]

1 minute ago, IbrahimAliMaher said:

The tactic is premised around sit deep and soak up pressure, then get the ball forward quickly and accurately on the break. I guess it would aim to be Leicester title winning season-esque.

Tbf the 'play through the middle' is a recent addition on the insistence of my assistant. That may have made things worse however. Also the 'hit early crosses' I only play when I'm playing a pacey striker and I think he can outpace the opposition CBs, otherwise it's 'work ball into box'. My assistant also loves hit early crosses, I tend to reject a lot of his suggestions unless they seem to make some sense (e.g. he often recommends' get stuck in' and 'stay on feet' at the same time!)

Usually the first 10 minutes into a game my assistant recommends me to 'pass shorter'. I ignore him, and 10 minutes after he's recommending to 'pass more direct'. So I think it's fair to say 90% of his advice is **** and you should figure things out yourself. 

You say you want to sit deep, but your formation has more players up front than in the back. And you defend wide. That doesn't add up. 

Get the ball forward quickly will probably not happen on a cautious mentality, you'd need a higher mentality for that. Cautious means carefully waiting for an opening while retaining possession. Especially together with shorter passing. 

Play through the middle is actually quite difficult as a standard TI because it generally is easiest for the opposition to defend with a compact block. 

Hit early crosses vs work ball into box are two totally different TIs, so it would require a totally different tactic to make it work. 

So again, think about your what kind of football you want to play and which formation, roles and duties and instructions that would fit. 

[GianniM]

3 minutes ago, IbrahimAliMaher said:

especially one on ones

Yeah I have that too, I know many people complain about that, I guess it's a general FM flaw. It's equally true for the opposition. 

[IbrahimAliMaher]

1 hour ago, zyfon5 said:

the first 2 screenshots where the opponent gk had like 12 saves and 7 saves is definitely nuts though but u still win by 1-0 from like 5-6 good chances so no complaints i guess. 3rd screenshot not surprised that u lose 1-0. curious question do u get a lot of shot from headers? coz from ur tactics where u have hit early cross and playing with two wingbacks i will think that a lot of those shots are from headers.

The first one I'd practically given up, my striker flicked in a near post corner in the 86th minute and I went mental lol. That was probably shot #38!

The third was a pretty end to end game, both sides had good chances. In the end they did me with a break in the second minute of stoppage time which was annoying.

I have my crossing instructions normally set on 'low crosses' as my pacey strikers are not good in the air. If I play my target man then I switch it to 'mixed' as I figure he has a chance in the air against the CBs. The wingbacks probably do still chuck a few high balls into the box though as they're only supposed to cross from deep, unless I'm going more adventurous when one/both is switched to 'attack' rather than 'support'.

[IbrahimAliMaher]

1 hour ago, zyfon5 said:

but ur tactics can definitely use some tweaking if u want to sit deep and soak pressure. for example, u have defend wider and counter press which is exact opposite of a tactic that wants to sit deep and soak pressure. and hit early cross is maybe the most misunderstood instruction here. u only want to use it when u want to hit crosses as early as possible due to the risk of wing players getting isolated or u have numbers advantage in the box during a counter and want to quickly exploit it before the opponents can defend properly. hit early cross will reduce the quality of ur cross generally so u want to use it cautiously. if u have pacey forwards u want 'pass into space' especially if u can exploit the space behind and from ur tactic u have an advanced playmaker that can hit these passes. play through the middle will increase the mentality of players in the middle axis apart from the wing players.

My defensive width tends to vary depending on the opposition. If the pre-match analysis suggests they play mainly through the middle, I defend narrower. If they send a higher proportion down the wings then I defend wider, anything else is 'standard'.

My team is told to press but only with a low line of engagement, i.e. if the opposition crosses the halfway line. In their own half they pretty well get left to do what they want with it.

Your comment on 'pass into space' makes sense though as I have a good amount of pace in attack, at the moment the attackers receive the ball to feet and run at the defenders but perhaps they'd be more effective played in behind. This could replace 'early crosses' then, with 'work ball into box' complementing limiting number of shots from outside the area.

[IbrahimAliMaher]

2 hours ago, GianniM said:

Usually the first 10 minutes into a game my assistant recommends me to 'pass shorter'. I ignore him, and 10 minutes after he's recommending to 'pass more direct'. So I think it's fair to say 90% of his advice is **** and you should figure things out yourself. 

Yeah a high proportion of assistant advice is garbage, I tend to apply a BS filter for most of what he says.

2 hours ago, GianniM said:

You say you want to sit deep, but your formation has more players up front than in the back. And you defend wide. That doesn't add up. 

I do also play 4-1-4-1 holding DMC; it's arguably my strongest XI and my preference usually for formation. The problem I have currently with that is I lack an out and out defensive DMC, my best option is BWM whose best position is as an orthodox MF. He's been rubbish lately so I've been playing more 4-2-3-1.

2 hours ago, GianniM said:

Get the ball forward quickly will probably not happen on a cautious mentality, you'd need a higher mentality for that. Cautious means carefully waiting for an opening while retaining possession. Especially together with shorter passing. 

My default mentality is cautious, but I play more offensive if we're dominating possession and chances, which we have recently.

2 hours ago, GianniM said:

Play through the middle is actually quite difficult as a standard TI because it generally is easiest for the opposition to defend with a compact block. 

So again, think about your what kind of football you want to play and which formation, roles and duties and instructions that would fit. 

Yep makes sense, the analysis above shows a lot of shots tend to get blocked.

I think my problem with this team is they refuse to play well the way I want them to, so I'm reduced to playing a tactic that reflects their limitations/my budget limitations. I made wholesale changes in the summer transfer window, in Jan I need to focus on one or two key players to add some missing ingredients

[Experienced Defender]

16 hours ago, IbrahimAliMaher said:

 

3 hours ago, IbrahimAliMaher said:

The tactic is premised around sit deep and soak up pressure, then get the ball forward quickly and accurately on the break. I guess it would aim to be Leicester title winning season-esque

First off, if you want to play a counter-attacking style of football (whether direct or fluid), the 4231 is not an optimal formation. But even if you insist on using the 4231 for such a style, you still need both a proper tactic and the right type of players. While I don't know whether or not you have the right players for a counter-oriented 4231 tactic, I can clearly see the weak points of your tactic.

Secondly, you absolutely do not need to use the cautious (or any other low) mentality in order to play counter-attacking football while being defensively solid and hard to break down. Moreover, a bit higher team mentality (e.g. balanced or positive) is a better choice when playing a counter-attacking sort of defensive football (as opposed to passive defensive styles such as catenaccio or park the bus). Defensive solidity and stability are primarily achieved by good vertical compactness (DL/LOE combo) and well-balanced, sensible setup of roles and duties (which of course is partly dependent on your desired style of play). So the mentality is not a key factor in this particular respect (although it is a very important factor in general, but in a different sense). 

In case you would like to hear more specific suggestions, please let me know 

[sporadicsmiles]

What sort of chances are you creating? I notice in one of your screen shots number 25 is getting a lot of chances from what look like deep crosses. These come from corners? In another there are just a lot of shots from outside the area, which are typically low percentage. How do you create chances (what type of assist do you see, even for shots your side misses)?

I agree with experienced defender that a 4231 is not the best choice for a counter attacking style. But if that is working, keep it. The more problematic issue is that it seems you are relying a lot on trying to get your AP to play balls into your striker through the middle. Is that right? Because this will not work well if the defence drops deep. Which means if you do get chances like this, your striker will be under pressure when he shoots, and is thus more likely to miss. Other than that, you likely get a lot of crosses from the right wing, where you create something of an overload. 

What best illustrates your problem, however, is the two main negatives listed below your tactic. A bad touches to goal ratio, and long shots. This means you are passing it around too much, and eventually players run out of options and decide to just shoot from distance. It also shows that your counter attack style is not working at a fundamental level. Counter attacking tactics by definition expect a low touches to goal ratio (which essentially means your score from more direct passages of play). 

This can mean one of two things. Either your counter attacks are being broken up too easy (and so do not create goals), or your team is not actually creating many counter attacks and are attacking slowly. Which would not be too surprising with short passing and a cautious mentality. I guess you are the best person to see which of those is true. 

[ForrestGrump]

Apologies if I repeat what others have said, I've only skimmed over the comments. While there isn't a great deal you can do about conversion rate, you can definitely do more to stabilise your tactic and create better chances in better positions.

I'm about 10 seasons into a save and I've used 4-2-3-1 as my main formation for basically all of it - it has never been effective when trying to be cautious. This is obviously just my experience, but I have tried endless combinations playing as Derby County - in the Championship, the EPL, and the Champions League - and none worked. 

Without intending to sound too harsh, almost everything with your tactic contrasts with how you say you want to play. 4-2-3-1 is a relatively attacking formation as it is - you've got two attacking wide midfielders and two wing-backs. Added to that is the fact that DLPs and Mezzalas are predominantly used for possession based styles. The Mezzala role is especially counterproductive in this example because they don't do enough defensive work and leave gaps in the middle of the park - you'd be better suited to having a BBM.

If you're trying to emulate the style that Leicester then there is no need to have shorter passing on there. An integral part of their tactic was to get Jamie Vardy in behind the defence as often as possible, and as quickly as possible. 'Pass into space' is an absolute must, and you need to be more direct with your passing. One thing you should be asking yourself, though, is do you need to be so defensive if you're regularly having 30 shots a game? That would perhaps indicate you're a strong side, and you should maybe look to be more attacking. Personally I have a serious hang-up about a cautious mentality and a lower line of engagement, I've found it invites way too much pressure and more often that not the opposition's conversion rate is far superior to mine.

[djpdavey]

I find you can get these spells with a large amount of players coming in. Usually if the tactic is creating good chances the dynamics can sort this out once high.