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 It doesn't matter the strength of the club.


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I don't see anything, just that any opponent can score a goal from a minimum number of shots. Recently, it happened to me several times, with different teams, that AI scored more goals from two or three shots on goal and my players do not know why, they shot everything weakly into the goalkeeper's hands or shot wide.  It doesn't matter the strength of the club. After the last update, AI scores goals from anything and my goalkeepers often don't save anything at all, while AI goalkeepers saves abnormally and  miraculously. My strikers shot weakly and this has not happened before. No matter what tactics you set, the game decides what the result of the match will be. I consider it foolish that any opponent have almost always shooting efficiency of over 80% and an AI goalkeeper a success rate of at least 60%.

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I'll agree with you if you can give me a single reason for why SI would do that to you. What on earth could SI have to gain from giving you specifically a game that is impossible to beat? seeing as many people have been able to win with small teams, it would seem that it only affects some users.

I mean, I've been able to get Folkestone into League Two (and we are fighting for promotion again!) without buying any players and only relying on youth intakes. So why I am not experiencing it?

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15 minutes ago, Hunkut said:

I don't see anything, just that any opponent can score a goal from a minimum number of shots. Recently, it happened to me several times, with different teams, that AI scored more goals from two or three shots on goal and my players do not know why, they shot everything weakly into the goalkeeper's hands or shot wide.  It doesn't matter the strength of the club. After the last update, AI scores goals from anything and my goalkeepers often don't save anything at all, while AI goalkeepers saves abnormally and  miraculously. My strikers shot weakly and this has not happened before. No matter what tactics you set, the game decides what the result of the match will be. I consider it foolish that any opponent have almost always shooting efficiency of over 80% and an AI goalkeeper a success rate of at least 60%.

I get you totally. Same is happening to me for the three seasons i'm in the currect save. Even tho i have more skilled strikers than the opponent, they dont do anything. Even they shoot like grandmas so keeper have the easiest job, or they miss by a mile. Yet the opponents dont even have to bother. They score from every angle, from far, from close, everything. This years version with updates its the shittiest version ever and i'm playing fm for 6-7 years in a row.

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54 minutes ago, XaW said:

I'll agree with you if you can give me a single reason for why SI would do that to you. What on earth could SI have to gain from giving you specifically a game that is impossible to beat? seeing as many people have been able to win with small teams, it would seem that it only affects some users.

I mean, I've been able to get Folkestone into League Two (and we are fighting for promotion again!) without buying any players and only relying on youth intakes. So why I am not experiencing it?

 This was not the case before. After the last update, I tried to play for several teams in the lower leagues. And it was the same everywhere, even though I had better strikers than the opponent, the opponent scored from anything and my goalkeepers did nothing. My strikers shot wide or shot weakly to hands of AI goalkeeper. Don't tell me about the tactics or motivation of the players. Because the players were motivated, they played good in midefield, was creative, managerial support was very good and yet when they had to score a goal, they shot wide  or weakly into the goalkeeper's gloves.

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Just now, Hunkut said:

 This was not the case before. After the last update, I tried to play for several teams in the lower leagues. And it was the same everywhere, even though I had better strikers than the opponent, the opponent scored from anything and my goalkeepers did nothing. My strikers shot wide or shot weakly to hands of AI goalkeeper. Don't tell me about the tactics or motivation of the players. Because the players were motivated, they played good in midefield, was creative, managerial support was very good and yet when they had to score a goal, they shot next to or weakly into the goalkeeper's gloves.

Then something has changed. Of course there are could be issues, and SI have acknowledged a lot. If you think you have found an issue then report it in the bugs section and provide evidence (matchs as .pkms) so SI can investigate. SI don't take bug reports from GD. They have stated on several cases that the match engine don't separate between a user and an AI manager, so that means that all the AI can do, you can as well. And that means that any issues you have at least can be mitigated by your tactical instructions.

So, either report a bug in the bugs section, or ask for tactical help in the tactics subforum. Those things can help you with your game.

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17 minutes ago, XaW said:

Then something has changed. Of course there are could be issues, and SI have acknowledged a lot. If you think you have found an issue then report it in the bugs section and provide evidence (matchs as .pkms) so SI can investigate. SI don't take bug reports from GD. They have stated on several cases that the match engine don't separate between a user and an AI manager, so that means that all the AI can do, you can as well. And that means that any issues you have at least can be mitigated by your tactical instructions.

So, either report a bug in the bugs section, or ask for tactical help in the tactics subforum. Those things can help you with your game.

I read the tactical instructions of some sites about Football Manager. I also read about the partnership of defender, midfielder, strikers and other instructions. I used some of it and it works in the middle of the field. Is possible, that any tactics instructions to influence that how often the team creates a chances, how often the team will be shoot, but they have no effect, whether player to score a goal from this chances. Sorry, but who scores and who does not, the game decides and not some tactical instructions. Tactical instructions can only affect how often they create their chances, or how they play overall.

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33 minutes ago, XaW said:

Then something has changed. Of course there are could be issues, and SI have acknowledged a lot. If you think you have found an issue then report it in the bugs section and provide evidence (matchs as .pkms) so SI can investigate. SI don't take bug reports from GD. They have stated on several cases that the match engine don't separate between a user and an AI manager, so that means that all the AI can do, you can as well. And that means that any issues you have at least can be mitigated by your tactical instructions.

So, either report a bug in the bugs section, or ask for tactical help in the tactics subforum. Those things can help you with your game.

The problem is not in tactics. They play one match very well and the next match they have a problem with amateurs. And in both cases, the opponent, whether he played completely badly or absolutely great, scored a goal from the minimum number of shots. That is why I say that the problem is not in tactics. When the game decides that your players will shoot weakly and wide, so they will shoot weakly and wide  and you cannot do nothing about it.

I play Football Manager fourteen years. I promoted with Shrewsbury from League Two to Premier League. I promoted York from National League back to Football League, also  Stockport County. I won title with Everton, I promoted Middlesbrough back to Premier League. also Nottingham Forest. I won Bundesliga title with Hamburg. Lost title with Frankurt against Bayern in last minute of the match. I need draw. I was in front 3:2. but we played only ten men more than 30 minutes. In the last four minutes Bayern scored two goals and won title. Yes this is football. I was not happy, but I liked this match. 

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I just had a game where the AI scored with their only shot against me. And you know why? Because it was an unmarked back post header from a freekick. If my defenders gift chances like that I would expect most teams to capitalise. We simply did not let them have any more chances because comprehensively outplayed them. Context matters here. If the AI is creating good chances then they are going to score most of them. If they are scoring all of them you are doing something drastically wrong (Attacking mentality, high defensive line, attacking fullbacks, counter press?).

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23 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

I just had a game where the AI scored with their only shot against me. And you know why? Because it was an unmarked back post header from a freekick. If my defenders gift chances like that I would expect most teams to capitalise. We simply did not let them have any more chances because comprehensively outplayed them. Context matters here. If the AI is creating good chances then they are going to score most of them. If they are scoring all of them you are doing something drastically wrong (Attacking mentality, high defensive line, attacking fullbacks, counter press?).

Sorry mate. Any player generated by the game is able to score from anything. I've already seen a rocket from the middle of the field to upper corner. It was realy rocket, not goal. Opponent scored one shot one goal. Do you think this is what? Do you think I'm completely stupid, that I am not look to tactics at first? Of course, I'm looking for tactical settings, If I feel that they played wrong, or when I feel, that something is wrong. I play football manager fourteen years, so do you think I'm completely stupid. But when something is repeated often, it's probably not just a mistake in the tactics themselves, especially who will score and who won't score. I'm sorry, but that's stupid. 

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16 minutes ago, Gross_Ballon said:

comes down to tactics !! every update changes everything. just like in real life you need to adapt and be willing to make adjustments! 

I think anyone do not understand. It is not a problem that how many chances the opponent will create! But in that it looks weird when the AI goalkeeper has a success rate of over 60% and often my goalkeepers less than 30%. AI strikers success rate of over 80% and my striker less than 40%. Does not matter how many chances the opponent will create. Does not matter on strenght of club. 

What makes a big difference is not the number of chances created, but in difference between the effectiveness of AI goalkeepers and strikers and Human player goalkeepers and strikers! 

And please don't tell me about the tactics, because when a player stands alone in front of the goalkeeper and shoots totally weakly, is not my decision ! It is decision of the game, that the striker shoot so weakly.

If the tactics are set incorrectly, they will not even create the chance, and will play very very poor. If the opponent played better and my team played poor in this situation, I can't complain, because it is football. 

However, do not confuse this with the effectiveness of goalkeepers and strikers. Efficiency and creation of the chances is not the same things. 
You can play well and you don't have to win, because your efficiency is poor. This is not tactical problem. Of course, it can also be a motivation of players, but it is not always true. The game and not the human player decides on the result and who will score the goal and who will miss the chance. So when the opponent's efficiency is high, I think it's also a decision of the game. 

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10 hours ago, Muttley84 said:

Not another FM is broken thread... :herman:

And the answer is always and only tAcTiCs

To be fair if you're a really good team, then you must be winning a lot of games and your players get complacent. I feel like while the complacency mechanic is realistic, I can't help but feel it's a sneaky way to shaft you when you're doing too well.

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12 hours ago, Hunkut said:

I think anyone do not understand. It is not a problem that how many chances the opponent will create! But in that it looks weird when the AI goalkeeper has a success rate of over 60% and often my goalkeepers less than 30%. AI strikers success rate of over 80% and my striker less than 40%. Does not matter how many chances the opponent will create. Does not matter on strenght of club. 

 

post stats to back ur claim then. these stats can be easily found in the game.

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4 minutes ago, zyfon5 said:

post stats to back ur claim then. these stats can be easily found in the game.

Yeah, conversion rate in the team statistics show it. Here is mine:

OPVFv4v.png

Most are around 10% in my game. Both myself and the AI.

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2 minutes ago, XaW said:

Yeah, conversion rate in the team statistics show it. Here is mine:

OPVFv4v.png

Most are around 10% in my game. Both myself and the AI.

stats analysis are quite underrated among FM players often i see someone making some claims but fail to back himself with statistics. it is very easy to perceive something very noticeable and thought that is the common norm. everyone of us will make this mistake in our life. a good example of this in football is corners. statistics have found that corners that reach the near post has a higher chance of scoring but everyone only remembers a good ol corner swinging into the centre of the 6 yard box and headed in by a tall strong player. instead a well taken corner into the near post is more likely to result in chaos in the box and getting scored but it is not something worth remembering.

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these are the player stats that u need to look for. above image is taken from my current team. u can get useful info from the stats if u know how to interpret it. i am willing to help with that. might consider opening a thread to talk about stats analysis in FM but that is another thread for another day.

20200424190236_1.jpg

20200424190311_1.jpg

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On 24/04/2020 at 13:09, zyfon5 said:

these are the player stats that u need to look for. above image is taken from my current team. u can get useful info from the stats if u know how to interpret it. i am willing to help with that. might consider opening a thread to talk about stats analysis in FM but that is another thread for another day.

20200424190236_1.jpg

20200424190311_1.jpg

Mate. What I see  is the unrealistic performance of AI forwards and AI goalkeepers. Especially unrealistic players generated by the game. Another match that only confirmed to me that in some matches the AI players are overrated and even though they are from a weaker team, they play as world class players. I don't think that this is problem the tactics. For example. It is not possible, that my players, when they go alone to the goalkeeper, more often the goalkeeper miraculously saved and the opponent, if he has one such chance, he scored goal. This is most vissible difference is especially at the unrealistic players generated by this game. This is not the problem how many chance AI create, but the problem is of what happens to that chance later. I do not influence when a player goes alone to the goalkeeper, whether he scores a goal or not. This is decided by the game. Football Manager is not a football simulation where you can control directly the player's move, power of  his shot, the time when he shoot, or what the player will be do in a situation. All instructions, including tactics, are only indirect commands. You can give instruction for players, but the game decides what the players will be do, how they move, when and how strong they shoot.  I see a dramatic difference in the decisions of the game in matches. 

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39 minutes ago, Hunkut said:

Mate. What I see  is the unrealistic performance of AI forwards and AI goalkeepers. Especially unrealistic players generated by the game. Another match that only confirmed to me that in some matches the AI players are overrated and even though they are from a weaker team, they play as world class players. I don't think that this is problem the tactics. For example. It is not possible, that my players, when they go alone to the goalkeeper, more often the goalkeeper miraculously saved and the opponent, if he has one such chance, he scored goal. This is most vissible difference is especially at the unrealistic players generated by this game. This is not the problem how many chance AI create, but the problem is of what happens to that chance later. I do not influence when a player goes alone to the goalkeeper, whether he scores a goal or not. This is decided by the game. Football Manager is not a football simulation where you can control directly the player's move, power of  his shot, the time when he shoot, or what the player will be do in a situation. All instructions, including tactics, are only indirect commands. You can give instruction for players, but the game decides what the players will be do, how they move, when and how strong they shoot.  I see a dramatic difference in the decisions of the game in matches. 

Yes that's the point why I ask u to post stats. And I'm not asking for your tactics. If there is a dramatic difference like what u have said, it will reveal in stats. U claim that ur gk makes like 30% of saves compared to AI that are at 60% and opponent strikers make 80% of their shots compared to your measly 40% prove that with numbers to me. If not just admit u get the numbers wrong and u are overexaggerrating the real situation. I'm ok with that and we can move on to see where is the real problem.

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8 hours ago, zyfon5 said:

Yes that's the point why I ask u to post stats. And I'm not asking for your tactics. If there is a dramatic difference like what u have said, it will reveal in stats. U claim that ur gk makes like 30% of saves compared to AI that are at 60% and opponent strikers make 80% of their shots compared to your measly 40% prove that with numbers to me. If not just admit u get the numbers wrong and u are overexaggerrating the real situation. I'm ok with that and we can move on to see where is the real problem.

I didn't continue games, where this was the case. Because it was horrible when my players had 15 shots and a few clean chances and everything was miraculously saved by the goalkeeper, or the players shots very weakly even when they was alone in front of the goalkeeper and had enough time to place a shot. It's all too visible to me when players will play weird. This is seen mainly from the behavior in the attack. When instead of a shot, he does something stupid or shoots completely weakly. When the players in the attack start to behave completely weird, I do not continue in such a game. For example, if instead of a shot or a pass, he stayed , turns back and waits for the opponent's defender come to him and rob the ball from him. If more players do it, despite other instructions and it continues also in other matches despite changes in instructions, then I end the game, because it doesn't make sense for me, such a game.

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11 hours ago, zyfon5 said:

Yes that's the point why I ask u to post stats. And I'm not asking for your tactics. If there is a dramatic difference like what u have said, it will reveal in stats. U claim that ur gk makes like 30% of saves compared to AI that are at 60% and opponent strikers make 80% of their shots compared to your measly 40% prove that with numbers to me. If not just admit u get the numbers wrong and u are overexaggerrating the real situation. I'm ok with that and we can move on to see where is the real problem.

AI effectiveness is unrealistic in many matches. If it didn't happen again, I wouldn't have to complain. I consider the unrealistic effectiveness of AI to be the fundamental difference between a good game and a bad game in Football manager. Once again, the game showed how easily can make two goals for AI from nothing. I'd rather uninstall the whole game and be at peace from the absolutely unrealistic AI efficiency! If the game doesn't want to, you can't win, even if you're a tactical genius. It's all about the decision of the game. Subsequent repeated attempts with the same tactics only showed that it was really only up to the decision of the game, when who to score the goal and how. I didn't change anything on the tactical instructions. Thats all. 

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3 hours ago, Hunkut said:

AI effectiveness is unrealistic in many matches. If it didn't happen again, I wouldn't have to complain. I consider the unrealistic effectiveness of AI to be the fundamental difference between a good game and a bad game in Football manager. Once again, the game showed how easily can make two goals for AI from nothing. I'd rather uninstall the whole game and be at peace from the absolutely unrealistic AI efficiency! If the game doesn't want to, you can't win, even if you're a tactical genius. It's all about the decision of the game. Subsequent repeated attempts with the same tactics only showed that it was really only up to the decision of the game, when who to score the goal and how. I didn't change anything on the tactical instructions. Thats all. 

Then prove it with numbers to me which is readily available to you. It's not about tactics that I'm asking. If u want to claim something, isn't it common sense to provide evidence? Then we can look into the numbers and see if SI is really at fault for making ur players worse. Tbh I kind of expected this beating around the bush kind of response. And I know that u cannot produce the statistics bcz I know my football data analytics. Even if u try to rig the system eventually some numbers will not add up. Continue to blame the game all u want and I'm not going to bother to reply if u still want to play the blame game.

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It is frustrating how often it feels like you lose or draw to a very low shot and shot on target count. It happens in real life but you rarely see a team that only has 3 or 4 shots win a game when the opponent has dominated possession and the shot count.

 

Expected goals in the game would help in this area massively. Not normally one for tinfoil hat stuff but I think it's not in the game currently because it would reveal that the ME is really unbalanced with some chances and if the player base has evidence that they've only scored 10% of the expected 20 goals under certain parameters, for example, they're not going to best pleased.

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6 hours ago, Hunkut said:

I didn't continue games, where this was the case. Because it was horrible when my players had 15 shots and a few clean chances and everything was miraculously saved by the goalkeeper, or the players shots very weakly even when they was alone in front of the goalkeeper and had enough time to place a shot. It's all too visible to me when players will play weird. This is seen mainly from the behavior in the attack. When instead of a shot, he does something stupid or shoots completely weakly. When the players in the attack start to behave completely weird, I do not continue in such a game. For example, if instead of a shot or a pass, he stayed , turns back and waits for the opponent's defender come to him and rob the ball from him. If more players do it, despite other instructions and it continues also in other matches despite changes in instructions, then I end the game, because it doesn't make sense for me, such a game.

Is player animations weird in FM? Yes. But does it affect the end result of the game? No. If u want to play with realistic animations and score like 5 goals from 10 shots, then u should play FIFA instead. FM is not the game for u. I also play fifa myself and had lots of fun in both games.

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2 minutes ago, Fosse said:

It is frustrating how often it feels like you lose or draw to a very low shot and shot on target count. It happens in real life but you rarely see a team that only has 3 or 4 shots win a game when the opponent has dominated possession and the shot count.

 

Expected goals in the game would help in this area massively. Not normally one for tinfoil hat stuff but I think it's not in the game currently because it would reveal that the ME is really unbalanced with some chances and if the player base has evidence that they've only scored 10% of the expected 20 goals under certain parameters, for example, they're not going to best pleased.

Yes I will love it if they added xG into the game. But when I see ppl overexaggerating things like this, I can't help but laugh. There are parameters other than xG readily available in the game that u can tell if everything is OK or not. I've seen ppl report about low goalscoring across leagues and when I check the data I highly suspect that it is due to unusually low shots per 90 on AI strikers. Whether why is it like that I will need to examine a few more seasons to come up with anything conclusive.

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I think the problem is it's very easy to create a tactic that consistently has 25+ shots.

I have plenty of success on this match engine and I win most games just through weight of shots and numbers, but there's no doubt a tactic that creates a lot of shots from close range doesn't seem to translate into the amount of goals you would expect when you are having a lot of shots in great areas. So many close range shots get tapped to the 'keeper, and so many close range headers somehow get caught by the 'keeper.

The AI just doesn't create the same chances, they will usually just have a few set pieces and some long shots which seem to go in more often. So you end up with this situation where the AI scores from only a handful of shots while you have mountains of shots without reward (or you end up scoring from a set piece anyway).

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On 24/04/2020 at 07:20, Gross_Ballon said:

comes down to tactics !! every update changes everything. just like in real life you need to adapt and be willing to make adjustments! 

The problem is when the game is showing you have a lot of shots and the 3D is showing a lot of those shots coming from close range and seemingly good areas, it can be difficult to translate that to a tactical shortcoming.

I actually think it oftens comes down more to player management and the mental side of the game. Pretty much every season I will go on an excellent unbeaten run, which is then followed by a mystifying loss of form in which I still dominate games, dominate shots, dominate clear cut chances etc. However my players stop taking those chances (often laughably so) while the AI will score from a high percentage of their own chances. I usually just put it down to not being demanding enough of my players when they are doing well, which leads to complacency.

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If u doubt anything, just check the stats of any striker in real life or in game. For any player to score consistently more than 0.5 goals per 90 (without penalties), they will need to put up 3 to 5 shots per 90 and 1.5 to 2.5 shots on target per 90. The more dominating ur team are or the more focused on scoring ur striker is ur stats will be skewed towards higher end since if ur team is very dominant or ur striker is very focused on scoring they will shoot at any chance they get hence lower quality chances. In simple terms, for a player to score 0.5 goals per 90, in a counter attacking team he will probably need only 3 shots per 90 but in a heavy possession team he will probably need 5 shots per 90. A deep lying forward might only need 1.5 shots per 90 to score one goal compared to a poacher who will need 2.5 shots per 90. Of course xG is a better indicator but from stats that are available in game I can apply this very consistently across any teams across multiple saves. I will be happy if anyone that can find any player in their save that don't follow this model.

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5 hours ago, zyfon5 said:

Is player animations weird in FM? Yes. But does it affect the end result of the game? No. If u want to play with realistic animations and score like 5 goals from 10 shots, then u should play FIFA instead. FM is not the game for u. I also play fifa myself and had lots of fun in both games.

I have been playing Football Manager for 14 years and there has always been something I enjoyed.  I want a fair game and not game where an opponent scored goal from anything what he shoot at the goalkeeper. 
Fair game for example, I started a game with Carlisle United. 
I was in front 3:1 at home against Barnsley and lost to penalties 4:5 when they  scored two goals at the end of the match. I lost, but it was fair game. Is not the same, when the opponent scored two goal from nothing a he had draw or win the match. Or as it happened to me. The opponent crossing ball from the left. None of the opponents were there, only my goalkeeper. He turned his back and walked away. The ball hit him in the back and bounced into the goal and the opponent scored the winning goal. I lost the match 1:2. This situation happened to me only once, AI scored such a winning goal. Do you consider this to be a fair decision of the game? I do not think so. I would be ashamed if I won the match in this way. 

 

And I don't like that at Football Manger, all of a sudden the game decides that the players will play absolutely weakly, or they will shoot everything side by side, or they will shoot weakly at the goalkeeper. It doesn't matter the form or the morale or the previous results, just the game has decided that they will shoot weakly and wide. I don't care if my team scored 5 goals from 10 shots, but how they deal with the chances based on the decision of the game. I consider it unfair if my players go to the goalkeeper three or four times alone and the goalkeeper of any quality miraculously eliminates it. And the opponent will score a goal in the same match from one such chance with great peace, and It doesn't matter on strength or attributes of the AI player. 

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Okay, so lets go down the rabbit hole.

@Hunkut what motivation is there for the game to be unfair in this manner as you believe? What is the benefit of this? Who benefits from this? 

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37 minutes ago, santy001 said:

Okay, so lets go down the rabbit hole.

@Hunkut what motivation is there for the game to be unfair in this manner as you believe? What is the benefit of this? Who benefits from this? 

1368447233_Snmkaobrazovky(33).thumb.png.183ff5b2d4a55e39db975021a97e88aa.png

It was fair match. 

 

For the past 14 years I have had a lot of fun with the Football manager. I have won, but also lost many times. I was disappointed, but also excited. And it's more of a habit to play Football manager. What is motivation for me? When I lost fair match, so I want continues. For example. I lost the title with Frankfurt in last round home against Bayern. My team was in front 3:1, but we had played more the 30 minutes only ten man. I needed one point to title. Bayern scored two goals and in the last minute of added time scored goal to 3:4 and won the title. I was disappointed, but I continued to next season. It was very good and fair battle. When I playing against better club from higher level. I want only good performance of my players. There's a big difference between losing after some good performance, fair match on the both sides. And losing where the game came up with some nonsense. Or when the AI goalkeeper amazing saved everything and AI strikers had 100% efficiency. Sometimes is possible, but not so often. Because it happens very often . I don't like such this matches and most of the nonsense in the match was in favor of AI, very rare for me. However, in some situations I consider the game is not very fair.

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4 minutes ago, Hunkut said:

1368447233_Snmkaobrazovky(33).thumb.png.183ff5b2d4a55e39db975021a97e88aa.png

For the past 14 years I have had a lot of fun with the Football manager. I have won, but also lost many times. I was disappointed, but also excited. And it's more of a habit to play Football manager. What is motivation for me? When I lost fair match, so I want continues. When I playing against better club from higher level. I want only good performance of my players. There's a big difference between losing after some good performance, fair match on the both sides. And losing where the game came up with some nonsense. Or when the AI goalkeeper amazing saved everything and AI strikers had 100% efficiency. Sometimes is possible, but not so often. Because it happens very often . I don't like such this matches and most of the nonsense in the match was in favor of AI, very rare for me. 

So u trying to switch the post around now? Check what u have said initially in this thread and relate that for me. BTW u haven't provide any evidence for ur initial claim yet where u claim that AI players are better. And I can bet that u can't find the evidence no matter how hard u try bcz I know my data analytics very well. So the strategy is to shift to something not related. Nice try there mate. What's next? Blame the free kicks?

If u believe it is an animation bug then report it in bugs forum. Can Gk concede from a cross? Yes. Check two Chelsea conceded goals in this year's champions league where both shots look like crosses. Does that happen every game? No. So what's the point of mentioning a rare but realistic thing (most probably an animation bug) being unfair to u?

If SI put real life mistakes into the game I have no doubt players will shout at them for being unrealistic. They have nothing to gain from upsetting the player base.

 

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5 hours ago, CityAndColour said:

The problem is when the game is showing you have a lot of shots and the 3D is showing a lot of those shots coming from close range and seemingly good areas, it can be difficult to translate that to a tactical shortcoming.

I actually think it oftens comes down more to player management and the mental side of the game. Pretty much every season I will go on an excellent unbeaten run, which is then followed by a mystifying loss of form in which I still dominate games, dominate shots, dominate clear cut chances etc. However my players stop taking those chances (often laughably so) while the AI will score from a high percentage of their own chances. I usually just put it down to not being demanding enough of my players when they are doing well, which leads to complacency.

I had the exact opposite I always take advantage during late season where AI with their disastrous squad building is not able to cope with the demands of the late season while making sure my players dun get complacent. I always close off seasons strongly.

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@Hunkut if something keeps happening then ultimately its a failing of your tactics. How many years you've played FM for makes no difference, not to the game and not to the point you're making. 

You didn't include anything about who benefits from this supposed unfairness or why it would be there. I think we both know the reason as to why.

I recently lost a game, as Barcelona, against Real Hispalis. It finished 2-1. Pretty frustrating if I look superficially at the stats: 

e1d0574d33905c0b313b0f5b29368b45.png

So I tried to address it in-game, looking at what else was going wrong. My first port of call is the general analysis page since that gives you this:

0be5136f919095532850b8ed14cb03e3.jpg

Admittedly that's the post-game one. But I can see quite clearly my team are pinning them back, but we're not actually doing much in the traditional danger zone. In fact, there's pretty much a continuous almost circle of activity around it but not quite pushing in. Whenever I see the heatmap like this I know I'm just keeping them defending backs to the wall in the most difficult to breakdown manner possible. If I get a goal, then its likely I'll get more because they can't just sit back like this as the game goes on - or even if they do - there isn't much danger. 

I also take a look at the shots, to see a bit more about what is going on:

2228551b1646807beed3b4dd7e85c42b.png

There are chances in good places for my team. Yet we didn't take them. The players would have been under pressure when shooting given the deep defensive line. The clear cut chances, while not a perfect metric by any means, does suggest that the team wasn't really getting much in the way of one on ones, or straight forward chances. Meanwhile, the opposition made a sub in around the 55th minute bringing on a fresh striker. A long ball to relieve pressure saw one player win a flick on putting the striker in for a one-on-one with the keeper, despite the shot being on the edge of the box. The second goal came from this same fresh on striker bearing down on a left back who took a poor first touch and again got into the box for a one on one. The player scored with his only 2 shots on target.

The goals happened in the 63rd and 68th minute. I know the problem was my own team were strangling the game by condensing too tightly into the oppositions area, and that left openings. Ultimately 2 long balls were my undoing, completely against the run of play. It happens, sometimes even when you can see what the problem is, you can't actually stop it because that's football. Of course it feels unfair, but then, the only thing that feels fair after all is that with the better team, the bigger reputation team I should win every game. It'd make for a pretty bland experience though if that were the case.

 

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Hi OP why don't u head over to the tactics forum and post ur tactics there? Then we can sit down and discuss how ur tactics can be improved? I will be very happy to review it very carefully and give my suggestion on how to get the best out of your players. Ultimately I want to help ppl not embarrass them on this forum. Apologies if I sounded too harsh.

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10 minutes ago, santy001 said:

@Hunkut if something keeps happening then ultimately its a failing of your tactics. How many years you've played FM for makes no difference, not to the game and not to the point you're making. 

You didn't include anything about who benefits from this supposed unfairness or why it would be there. I think we both know the reason as to why.

I recently lost a game, as Barcelona, against Real Hispalis. It finished 2-1. Pretty frustrating if I look superficially at the stats: 

e1d0574d33905c0b313b0f5b29368b45.png

So I tried to address it in-game, looking at what else was going wrong. My first port of call is the general analysis page since that gives you this:

0be5136f919095532850b8ed14cb03e3.jpg

Admittedly that's the post-game one. But I can see quite clearly my team are pinning them back, but we're not actually doing much in the traditional danger zone. In fact, there's pretty much a continuous almost circle of activity around it but not quite pushing in. Whenever I see the heatmap like this I know I'm just keeping them defending backs to the wall in the most difficult to breakdown manner possible. If I get a goal, then its likely I'll get more because they can't just sit back like this as the game goes on - or even if they do - there isn't much danger. 

I also take a look at the shots, to see a bit more about what is going on:

2228551b1646807beed3b4dd7e85c42b.png

There are chances in good places for my team. Yet we didn't take them. The players would have been under pressure when shooting given the deep defensive line. The clear cut chances, while not a perfect metric by any means, does suggest that the team wasn't really getting much in the way of one on ones, or straight forward chances. Meanwhile, the opposition made a sub in around the 55th minute bringing on a fresh striker. A long ball to relieve pressure saw one player win a flick on putting the striker in for a one-on-one with the keeper, despite the shot being on the edge of the box. The second goal came from this same fresh on striker bearing down on a left back who took a poor first touch and again got into the box for a one on one. The player scored with his only 2 shots on target.

The goals happened in the 63rd and 68th minute. I know the problem was my own team were strangling the game by condensing too tightly into the oppositions area, and that left openings. Ultimately 2 long balls were my undoing, completely against the run of play. It happens, sometimes even when you can see what the problem is, you can't actually stop it because that's football. Of course it feels unfair, but then, the only thing that feels fair after all is that with the better team, the bigger reputation team I should win every game. It'd make for a pretty bland experience though if that were the case.

 

Can somewhat relate to this. Countless times I make a substitution or changes just a bit too late which I instantly conceded when waiting for the changes to take place. It's like I can foresee how I would concede but too late to make changes. I have no doubt that my impending change could have change the end result but it's football.

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42 minutes ago, zyfon5 said:

So u trying to switch the post around now? Check what u have said initially in this thread and relate that for me. BTW u haven't provide any evidence for ur initial claim yet where u claim that AI players are better. And I can bet that u can't find the evidence no matter how hard u try bcz I know my data analytics very well. So the strategy is to shift to something not related. Nice try there mate. What's next? Blame the free kicks?

If u believe it is an animation bug then report it in bugs forum. Can Gk concede from a cross? Yes. Check two Chelsea conceded goals in this year's champions league where both shots look like crosses. Does that happen every game? No. So what's the point of mentioning a rare but realistic thing (most probably an animation bug) being unfair to u?

If SI put real life mistakes into the game I have no doubt players will shout at them for being unrealistic. They have nothing to gain from upsetting the player base.

 

zyfon5 read to whom I replied! I answered what my motivation for the game is! So stop insulting me! 

After this your post, I am absolutely not interested in your statistics. I will discuss the game with those who will not offend me! I closed discusion with you. And do not try me something write. I will be ignore everything your post.  

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8 minutes ago, Hunkut said:

zyfon5 read to whom I replied! I answered what my motivation for the game is! And stop insulting me! 

After this your post, I am absolutely not interested in your statistics. I will discuss the game with those who will not offend me! 

I know who u are replying to but with or without quote my point still stands. And u didn't bother to read my unquoted apologies post. U can get help from others in tactics forum not just me.

Edit: just checked u are the one that mentioned about percentage initially not me. And I backed up mine with evidence. And others have point out their argument without statistics.

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14 minutes ago, zyfon5 said:

I know who u are replying to but with or without quote my point still stands. And u didn't bother to read my unquoted apologies post. U can get help from others in tactics forum not just me.

The question was, what motivates me? So I replied, I didn't change anything. I will write what I like and what I don't like about the game. And in first post now I've analyzed what I don't like about the game! This is just your prejudice about me, because I criticized something about the game. I don't think the behavior of the players in the game is absolutely perfect, nor do I think that the game is always fair to the human player, even if SI tries to. It's still only game mostly controlled by the computer.  And what's next? Nothing. Because I will play without having to write anything. If the matches are fair doesnt matter, whether my players play poorly or well, then I have nothing to write. That's football, once you're up once you're down. I closed this disussion, because it leads nowhere.

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44 minutes ago, Hunkut said:

The question was, what motivates me?

If you read carefully the question was not what motivates you.

2 hours ago, santy001 said:

what motivation is there for the game to be unfair in this manner as you believe? What is the benefit of this? Who benefits from this? 

It's more like how would SI benefit making the game like this?

12 hours ago, Hunkut said:

If the game doesn't want to, you can't win, even if you're a tactical genius. It's all about the decision of the game. Subsequent repeated attempts with the same tactics only showed that it was really only up to the decision of the game, when who to score the goal and how. I didn't change anything on the tactical instructions. Thats all. 

False conclusion. If you have a tactic that will generate 65% wins, that means when you restart you might get different results. A single incident on the pitch can push the game in other direction. 

 

3 hours ago, Hunkut said:

The opponent crossing ball from the left. None of the opponents were there, only my goalkeeper. He turned his back and walked away. The ball hit him in the back and bounced into the goal and the opponent scored the winning goal.

So your GK made a mistake. It happens. The animation is bad, and there are many other examples of bad animations but your GK making a mistake is nothing unrealistic.

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The absolutely only reason this goes purely in "favor of the AI" is that the AI for most is the only Entity in the game that focuses some on defending to begin with. E.g. Football isn't a game About haveing moar shots on some spreadsheet.  Plus, nobody tries something like this. Sometimes the AI then may win lucky, sometimes not so much -- however, it's Bound to happen.

 

Plus, if you're successful, you play against a lot of defensive AI. Playing defensive means having far lesser shots, mainly focused on frustrating.
 

 

All of this will continue until the dawn of time, or until FM reworks both its Feedback as well as AI managers. Most FM communities on the download front are filled with ridiculously attacking tactics to begin with, which also can struggle to create attacking space (e.g. pushing all Players narrowly forward where they hold hands may not make the pitch big enough to stretch defenders -- no matter who receives the next pass, he would be immediately pushed).

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2 hours ago, yolixeya said:

If you read carefully the question was not what motivates you.

 

I answered what motivates me to continue in the game. And what is their motivation. I understand that SI wants to do the game well, but it is still a computer-controlled game. I don't want about I complaining about something that has been entertaining me for years. I started with Football Manager 2006 with 2D and with just a few instructions. As the game has improved. Football Manager 2009 had first 3D. With arrived  more instructions, it is much more difficult to set up the right instructions and choose the right tactics. I also have better options than wasting time here. I write not only what I like about Football Manager, but also what I don't like about the game. And the reason because I've been playing it for a very long time. I can keep my knowledge and complaints to myself, but I will also keep to myself what I like about the game and why I play the game for so long.

 

2 hours ago, yolixeya said:

So your GK made a mistake. It happens. The animation is bad, and there are many other examples of bad animations but your GK making a mistake is nothing unrealistic.

Sorry, but the situation where the goalkeeper turns his back to the ball, which is flying towards him, is totally absurd and unrealistic. Unrealistic because the goalkeeper had to see the flying ball and nevertheless he turned his back and walked towards the goal line, as if the ball was behind the goal line. Sorry, but it was not goalkeeper mistake it was stupid situation generated by game. Mistake of goalkeeper is when is he had no position to saved ball, or he playing pass to opponent. It is mistake. In this situation goalkeeper totally ignored flying ball, and he must seen the flying ball. Nevertheless he ignored the ball. In this situation I totally disagree, that it was mistake of goalkeeper.

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3 minutes ago, Hunkut said:

Sorry, but the situation where the goalkeeper turns his back to the ball, which is flying towards him, is totally absurd and unrealistic. Unrealistic because the goalkeeper had to see the flying ball and nevertheless he turned his back and walked towards the goal line, as if the ball was behind the goal line.

I didn't see your situation but I'am leaning towards that is just a bad animation based on my experinces. I used to go mad when for instance my defender is closer to the ball and reaches it first but then just slows down completely and  ignores the ball until the opposition player comes and picks it up. In reality my player was further from the ball and that is what animation should have shown.bI read on this forum that the game calculates what wll happen and then chooses appropriate animation. And sometimes those animations are just bad represantation of what happened and on top of that graphical engine is very limited.

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1 hour ago, yolixeya said:

I didn't see your situation but I'am leaning towards that is just a bad animation based on my experinces. I used to go mad when for instance my defender is closer to the ball and reaches it first but then just slows down completely and  ignores the ball until the opposition player comes and picks it up. In reality my player was further from the ball and that is what animation should have shown.bI read on this forum that the game calculates what wll happen and then chooses appropriate animation. And sometimes those animations are just bad represantation of what happened and on top of that graphical engine is very limited.

I agreed, but in some situations, is the behavior of players is weird. I think in some "player mistakes" it's more of a bad animation than a player's mistakes. Especially when, for example, a player sees the ball but he does nothing, he behaves as if the ball was not there. And what I don't like is that more often in this situation AI has the advantage of it than Human player. Of course, SI has nothing from of the favor AI in game, but it's still just a computer-controlled game and SI will work to fix the bugs. But I also think that, for example, high AI efficiency and low efficiency of human player team is not just a mistake of some tactic setting of human player. Not everything is a mistake in setting tactics or other instructions in the game. Ok. I finished this discussion. If I will be want something other write so I will write about my game with Carlisle United, which I play now. But this will be in other section. 

Edited by Hunkut
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On 24/04/2020 at 12:37, zyfon5 said:

stats analysis are quite underrated among FM players often i see someone making some claims but fail to back himself with statistics. it is very easy to perceive something very noticeable and thought that is the common norm.

Plus this. :D 

It's impossible to have the Opposition scoring consistently like 80% of their "chances", unless you would field no defense whatsoever, would put your central defenders on man marking so that they are dragged over the pitch on every opposition attack (or you would trigger a bug). 

Edited by Svenc
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I'm just saying this, to all those who think the majority of complaints are just due to some bad tactical choice or poor knowledge of the game or anyway defending in some way the ME (not sure why).

Sometimes it's true, some tactic setup is an abomynious, but I also think that the vast majority of Football Manager players play this game because they have an at least little knowledge of football. Some, maybe many, of them are humble enough (not my case) to use default tactics. Some others, maybe many more, like to create their own tactics (that's me), and they avoid the tactic forum as it was plagued, because they consider it like "cheating". I want to make my mistakes, I want to learn from my mistakes but at one condition: the game must give me the proper and fair payback, may it be good or bad. Because this is probably the best part of the game, to achieve results thanks to something you created and you developed.

Now what puzzles me it's how so many people are all sharing the same experience. Too many goals from set pieces, the poorest goal conversion % in FM history, the feeling of unfairness and randomness they feel while playing FM. Am I wrong? I think the majority of complaints on the GD is about those points. Are we affected by a collective allucination? Or, and this is directed to those who counter these complaints, is FM20 just for a few lucky users that know how to play the game? I hope it isn't.

And if it's true that it's tactic, if so many users, so many customers, are sharing the same problems, well then in my opinion there's something really wrong with the game itself if such a number of users can't understand it.

To me, there's nothing wrong is you are enjoying the game, we're all happy of that. But pointing kindly someone to approach the tactic forum because it's obvious that if his striker can't score from inside the 6 yards box he really needs help, well for me that's not honest. Accusing someone to pay more attention to setup a good defensive set piece routine to avoid headers on far post, to me it's not honest. To ask repeatedly someone to bring evidences of his struggles, when the same problems are common to the most of users attending this forum (and they are not few), to me it's not honest. And you don't need any evidence because this happens even for AI vs AI games. And just as a side note: bring on comparison to real life football, make things just worse.

What instead I would find honest, is saying "yes, this edition has these problems. We can try helping you to mitigate'em, if you wish so, but they can't be fixed". But denying them existing, is not of any help for anyone. SI especially.

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I think it's the way the game is visualised.

It's the clear 1 on 1s that are killing it for me. Even the stuff on the counter attack where your player is in acres of space - you know the outcome! The forwards certainly miss more of those types of goals then they score. In fact i'd be willing to bet it's a miniscule amount.

It's really spoiling what is an otherwise great game.

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8 hours ago, Svenc said:

The absolutely only reason this goes purely in "favor of the AI" is that the AI for most is the only Entity in the game that focuses some on defending to begin with. E.g. Football isn't a game About haveing moar shots on some spreadsheet.  Plus, nobody tries something like this. Sometimes the AI then may win lucky, sometimes not so much -- however, it's Bound to happen.

*snip*

This.  So much this.  It won't always work, and many times it hasn't for me but it did... literally just now, I went from 4-4-1-1 (2DM/2WB is the second 4).  That went down to 4-4-1-0 in the 60th minute...

image.thumb.png.4188e2affba83568191684ae5525b530.png

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4 hours ago, Federico said:

 

Very well written. I agreed with you. I also consider it cheating when I take someone's tactics. I create my own tactics. Some tactics worked, some didn't. I always seen the team  what I want to play with the team and how type of the players is in the team. For example, at Cambridge United, I played three midfielders and set them up completely differently. If something didn't work on tactics, you can easily see it from the players' passes. If there is something wrong with the tactics, then the players often do not even create a chance and they are already playing very badly in the middle of the field. Now I play for Carlisle United. And although I could write the same thing that an opponent scores two goals from two or three shots, my players  put a lot of pressure and they scored more goals than the opponent.

I played football, I coached a youth team. So I can't say that I don't understand football.

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