Is FM being hold back by low specs?

[grade]

I heard, few years ago they were making motion capture so player movements could be more realistic.

Beyond that, is anyone guess... SI doesn't share this stuff.

[themadsheep2001]

1 hour ago, 2feet said:

Does anyone know what type of graphics are in the 3d match engine?

Are the players movements created with motion capture?

Or are they sprites?

Or something else?

It's motion capture

[GreenTriangle]

9 hours ago, SC00P0NE said:

By *kids*, I meant, like, college *kids*, not kiddie *kids*.

Basically, in order to maintain a healthy playerbase you, as the developer, have to, at least to some degree, go with the time.. It's like VHS, most youngsters wouldn't have a clue what this funky new abbreviation might mean if you asked them.. OG FM players will probably soldier on until their dying breath but most of us will eventually decide to spend more time with the family, and I said earlier that modders are already complaining that more and more of their peers have stopped modding.. I at least would most definitely stop purchasing FM if there weren't any good mods around anymore..

Of course I was referring to college "kids". Do you know what the problem is ? There are countless games very advanced from a graphical point of view, but which do not require navigating among so many myths to be played. The FM community is full of myths, most of which are confirmed strictly in a certain combination of factors. Is the combination no longer respected ? The myth turns out to be not true, and the "kids" realize it immediately. What will they do ? They will buy the game strictly for try end, eventually, for some achievements. And there is something else. FM takes time. Why would they spend 300 hours on a save when they could get the same satisfaction (or even more) playing two or three other games ? Even the most super advanced graphics will not attract countless "kids" in the long run. They will buy the game once, see what it's all about, find out how they can get the achievements quickly (as quickly as possible) ... then they will abandon this game. Why ? Because they don't have time either, but they want to have fun. And they will rather have fun playing a game that requires a quick learning curve and offers maximum satisfaction after only 50 hours of play. And FM is not such a game.

[fc.cadoni]

4 hours ago, 2feet said:

Does anyone know what type of graphics are in the 3d match engine?

Are the players movements created with motion capture?

Or are they sprites?

Or something else?

Inverse Kinematics

[fc.cadoni]

12 hours ago, forameuss said:

But you're not comparing like for like.  DICE's market for something like Battlefield is absolutely enormous, and FMs is not.  From a quick google, FM claims - from Miles itself - to have sold 1 million copies of FM22 as of August this year.  FIFA - probably your closest genre sibling (although not a direct match) sold (allegedly, according to EA so...lol) 9 million units in the first few months of its life.  So even within football it's niche, and doesn't have the pick-up-and-play nature that FIFA has (despite that product being a horrible, grasping amalgam of a casino and a pub toilet).  

Battlefield One was pretty well received, and DICE have claimed there have been 25 million players.  Now I take that number with a massive pinch of salt given they're not mentioning sales, but it's not even in the same ballpark as the reach FM has.  So whether the numbers are exaggerated or not, I expect they're along the right lines, and if we're following your line that DICE had to make a difficult decision, the decision would be magnitudes harder for SI, especially given they've repeatedly said that people would be surprised what systems people play on.  The size of the problem of scything off a good portion of your userbase is likely exponentially and inversely proportional to the size of your audience, and people seem to be keep glossing over that because they want something shiny.

It's not always such an improvement for graphics, but for some core elements inside the game. Back in 2010; Bad Company II had a core problem with movement, where you can move left-right-back-forward but not diagonally-back-right.

Anyway, I am all in to re-write the source code for multi-core; and I am pretty sure the majority of hardware (fan-base) it's 6-7 y/o where it has more than 2 (or) 1 core in CPU. 

[rp1966]

8 hours ago, 2feet said:

Does anyone know what type of graphics are in the 3d match engine?

Are the players movements created with motion capture?

Or are they sprites?

Or something else?

Si have never opened up about the way the match visualiser is done.  We know they use motion capture to build the player animations as it's been mentioned in feature videos and in regards to preparing for women's football, but beyond that it's hard to say.  

From looking at the game and some of it's clear limitations, especially in regards to lighting/shadows not matching (look at light placement vs shadows in a night game where stadium doesn't have floodlights in the corners). I'd say it's not a true 3D engine.

I think what they are doing is pre-rendering the stadium and pitch (only 3 lighting set-ups - sun from left;short shadow, sun from back; long shadow and night game) and then the player animations/ball are overlaid as sprites.  I also suspect that the player shadows are pre rendered onto the players - they are part of the animation. 

The 'X' shadow on players during night matches doesn't change to match light placement in the ground and shadow lengths don't change as the player moves to the corners. Pretty sure lighting is faked; not real-time 3D.

If they do use a true 3D engine they have severely hobbled it - because a lot of things don't add up for true 3D.

Edited October 12, 2022 by rp1966

[forameuss]

15 hours ago, grade said:

Gonna, reply to this one and another thing, as the rest either agree or not arguments from my part.

Just because Ultimate Team and Career Mode is there, doesn't mean you are obligated to play them. there are other game modes. Last year, we only did have two versions and didn't care about the users that play the third version. In FIFA haven't spent any money on it, aside from buying the game. Sure it can strip you of your wallet, if you aren't carefull, if you play Ultimate Team, but there is option of not to and save some money.

As for the lack of communication, sure we can blame trolls and what not, but I thought that was part of moderators jobs to cast a side those trolls... if it wasn't for the dysfunctional family, I call this community, that actually helps many users provided information and knowledge along the years. SI hasn't been helpful at all these years, not considering fixes (with the exeception of handfull of SI people).

SI should be grateful for this community and the Moderators... but the sentiment is not reciprocate. At least from my point of view.

Again they are fine with the decisions they made for this game, including this community.

On FIFA - sure you can play other modes, but the whole thing is set up to funnel you towards playing FUT and ultimately (no pun intended) spending all your time there, and hopefully - for them - your money.  And the former part is important, because EA have become a lot more insidious about it.  The game is far, far more engagement driven than ever before, probably because people kept crowing about how they hadn't spent a penny to get that team they've spent 8 hours a day for 9 months grinding for.  The house always wins.  But that's off-topic really.

As for the  communication part, I'm not buying the mod argument.  You can't just point to them and say, "well we've got mods" and excuse away the abuse the developers regularly got.  If someone ran up and punched you in the face but they were immediately arrested, you'd probably still rather they didn't punch you in the face in the first place.  Plus SI do listen to the community if you say it in the right way.  They brought in the feature requests forum, and you can trace a line through some of the stuff there to making it into the full game.  But for every one person who can articulate a bug report to make SI's life easy, you've got 10 more coming in saying completely ludicrous stuff with no basis that simply isn't worth replying to.  Guess which ones are more visible?

[el_manayer]

I think this is just a really poor excuse

[(sic)]

3 hours ago, rp1966 said:

Si have never opened up about the way the match visualiser is done.  We know they use motion capture to build the player animations as it's been mentioned in feature videos and in regards to preparing for women's football, but beyond that it's hard to say.  

From looking at the game and some of it's clear limitations, especially in regards to lighting/shadows not matching (look at light placement vs shadows in a night game where stadium doesn't have floodlights in the corners). I'd say it's not a true 3D engine.

I think what they are doing is pre-rendering the stadium and pitch (only 3 lighting set-ups - sun from left;short shadow, sun from back; long shadow and night game) and then the player animations/ball are overlaid as sprites.  I also suspect that the player shadows are pre rendered onto the players - they are part of the animation. 

The 'X' shadow on players during night matches doesn't change to match light placement in the ground and shadow lengths don't change as the player moves to the corners. Pretty sure lighting is faked; not real-time 3D.

If they do use a true 3D engine they have severely hobbled it - because a lot of things don't add up for true 3D.

No more needs to be said, I think. It looks like it's 3D, but it's not. I'm not sure if their game engine would support true 3D. 

It all ties to the engine that's being used for this game. At its core, it's probably the same thing it's been for 20 years now. So it's no wonder the game is unable to move forward in a lot of areas. Low specs is just a result of this, not the core problem.

Edit: Though making a new engine, and transferring everything to it is a MASSIVE task, and inevitably the min. specs would go up.

But the answer to the question "Is FM being held back by low specs", is yes.

Edited October 12, 2022 by (sic)

[themadsheep2001]

1 hour ago, forameuss said:

On FIFA - sure you can play other modes, but the whole thing is set up to funnel you towards playing FUT and ultimately (no pun intended) spending all your time there, and hopefully - for them - your money.  And the former part is important, because EA have become a lot more insidious about it.  The game is far, far more engagement driven than ever before, probably because people kept crowing about how they hadn't spent a penny to get that team they've spent 8 hours a day for 9 months grinding for.  The house always wins.  But that's off-topic really.

As for the  communication part, I'm not buying the mod argument.  You can't just point to them and say, "well we've got mods" and excuse away the abuse the developers regularly got.  If someone ran up and punched you in the face but they were immediately arrested, you'd probably still rather they didn't punch you in the face in the first place.  Plus SI do listen to the community if you say it in the right way.  They brought in the feature requests forum, and you can trace a line through some of the stuff there to making it into the full game.  But for every one person who can articulate a bug report to make SI's life easy, you've got 10 more coming in saying completely ludicrous stuff with no basis that simply isn't worth replying to.  Guess which ones are more visible?

Spot on about the communication. I also think there's way too much of a prevailing thought on here that listening means agreeing with what's been said and doing what they have been told, and that's not actually what it means. 

[grade]

1 hour ago, forameuss said:

On FIFA - sure you can play other modes, but the whole thing is set up to funnel you towards playing FUT and ultimately (no pun intended) spending all your time there, and hopefully - for them - your money.  And the former part is important, because EA have become a lot more insidious about it.  The game is far, far more engagement driven than ever before, probably because people kept crowing about how they hadn't spent a penny to get that team they've spent 8 hours a day for 9 months grinding for.  The house always wins.  But that's off-topic really.

As for the  communication part, I'm not buying the mod argument.  You can't just point to them and say, "well we've got mods" and excuse away the abuse the developers regularly got.  If someone ran up and punched you in the face but they were immediately arrested, you'd probably still rather they didn't punch you in the face in the first place.  Plus SI do listen to the community if you say it in the right way.  They brought in the feature requests forum, and you can trace a line through some of the stuff there to making it into the full game.  But for every one person who can articulate a bug report to make SI's life easy, you've got 10 more coming in saying completely ludicrous stuff with no basis that simply isn't worth replying to.  Guess which ones are more visible?

The FIFA, yes, I agree, they had been insidious to try you spent more money on it. But there are ways to play FIFA, without paying any more money. I simply play solo (the cups, leagues, made up tournaments and career mode) or multiplayer with friends. Don't touch Ultimate Teams (I try it before, but seeing you have to spent money to further develop your team) or any that stuff of multiplayer leagues and cups. Despite EA being insidious for you to spent more money, I think there are far more insidious game studios, like Ubisoft, with chopping part of your game and best weapons behind a pay wall. I mean that is common practice in many games. The majority of mobile games are like that. I'm glad that Si never venture that road, despite trying to test the waters with FM Touch with Unlockables...

As for the community, I agree that developers got a lot of Trolls, but that is one of the reason that we got moderators, so that they clean and punish the abusers... (can we call them trolls? Abusers is for me far more predatorial term, thanks), anyway these trolls, can be easily avoided if Mods, punish them if they break any forum rule. Because if they are simply annoying, ignoring them is the best solution. Yes I know sometimes is hard to do. I do also like SI had a request thread (guess has its own forum), no issues there. if they use it... I like to believe they do, but small part of me is saying: is just smoke screen? I seen only one time, when actually saw listening to the community, was when they release the new editor to edit leagues and people asked if was possible to make a cup that can pick up from teams of other nations back 2010.

I agree that threads are more visible are ludicrous stuff, but I have seen threads that touched important issues, that gets closed, because the thread always descends to troll fighting, for whatever reasons. But is that hard for Miles post the stuff he published on twitter, also here? Why was Neil then posting a text from Miles, when they cancelled FM Touch last year? Why didn't Miles post that himself here? Or the guy/girl that is head the editor make comment on thread to clear any doubt that is easy fix... or make an actual guide... Oh the shock! The horror! God forbid!

What happens, is simply, aside from Desmond, Neil and Glenn (from the threads I usually read, there can be others, but again handful of them), there is a disconnect with this community. When I was writing about if it wasn't for the community, I'm talking the people that help in the editor, graphics and tactics sub-forums is essential fellow users that do it for free and in their free-time to answer the doubts and questions other users have. In the editor, I have yet to see any SI personnel there. I even made a PM asking a simple question to the supposed head of Editor to ask a simple question why a certain idea I had was possible in the editor, that I was failing miserably to do it, after asking around of fellow editors and no one knew the answer. He hasn't reply me back... no I'm not talking about its been a week, its been 2 years.

Sorry for wall text.

Edited October 12, 2022 by grade

[themadsheep2001]

30 minutes ago, grade said:

The FIFA, yes, I agree, they had been insidious to try you spent more money on it. But there are ways to play FIFA, without paying any more money. I simply play solo (the cups, leagues, made up tournaments and career mode) or multiplayer with friends. Don't touch Ultimate Teams (I try it before, but seeing you have to spent money to further develop your team) or any that stuff of multiplayer leagues and cups. Despite EA being insidious for you to spent more money, I think there are far more insidious game studios, like Ubisoft, with chopping part of your game and best weapons behind a pay wall. I mean that is common practice in many games. The majority of mobile games are like that. I'm glad that Si never venture that road, despite trying to test the waters with FM Touch with Unlockables...

As for the community, I agree that developers got a lot of Trolls, but that is one of the reason that we got moderators, so that they clean and punish the abusers... (can we call them trolls? Abusers is for me far more predatorial term, thanks), anyway these trolls, can be easily avoided if Mods, punish them if they break any forum rule. Because if they are simply annoying, ignoring them is the best solution. Yes I know sometimes is hard to do. I do also like they had a request thread (guess has its own forum), no issues there. if they use it... I like to believe they do, but small part of me is saying: do they? I seen only one time, when actually saw listening to the community, was when they release the new editor to edit leagues and people asked if was possible to make a cup that can pick up from teams of other nations back 2010.

I agree that threads are more visible are ludicrous stuff, but I have seen threads that touched important issues, that gets closed, because the thread always descends to troll fighting, for whatever reasons. But is that hard for Miles post the stuff he published on twitter, also here? Why was Neil then posting a text from Miles, when they cancelled FM Touch last year? Why didn't Miles post that himself here? Or the guy/girl that is head the editor make comment on thread to clear any doubt that is easy fix... or make an actual guide... Oh the shock! The horror! God forbid!

What happens, is simply, aside from Desmond, Neil and Glenn (from the threads I usually read, there can be others, but again handful of them), there is a disconnect with this community. When I was writing about if it wasn't for the community, I'm talking the people that help in the editor, graphics and tactics sub-forums is essential fellow users that do it for free and in their free-time to answer the doubts and questions other users have. In the editor, I have yet to see any SI personnel there. I even made a PM asking a simple question to the supposed head of Editor to ask a simple question why a certain idea I had was possible in the editor, that I was failing miserably to do it, after asking around of fellow editors and no one knew the question. He hasn't reply me back... no I'm not talking about its been a week, its been 2 years.

Sorry for wall text.

Moderators can only do so much, and after the fact. And many SI staff have frankly had enough of the abuse over the years and I don't blame them. They have enough work going on, and taking extra time to come here, only to get abused isn't something most are interested in and rightly so. I won't mention names as they have PM'd privately in the past, but I've lost track of the number of Devs/QA who go into threads (typically bugs threads) try and answer something, get a torrent of abuse and have to drop me a PM so myself/another moderator can deal with it. I say all this as someone who repeatedly thinks we need more SI communication (and have mentioned this to Neil many a time) - if we want more interaction here, this place needs to be better when interacting/talking to devs/QA. I've been a moderator for over 10 years now, I'm still having to write posts like this when it comes to posting with respect. And that's a problem. 

[DementedHammer]

I can totally relate to that mindset. As someone who works at a software company myself, I'd be soul destroying to put my heart and soul into something that I loved, and then have to deal with unwarranted, entitled abuse. Heck, it's bad enough just having to wade through the threads as a user. I just wish there was a stickied thread where all the official announcements went, so I didn't have to wade through pages and pages of negativity this time each year. 

 

Personally, I fail to understand the outrage and anger over a game that literally costs a couple of hours salary. I can understand people wanting things to be better for sure. But I can't understand the deep anger that some people are expressing on here. I want a set piece editor improvement as much as the next guy. But I see no reason to throw my toys out of the cot if I don't get it. It's not like SI owe me anything. 

For what it's worth, I do think that SI may have some interesting issues to deal with in the future. Only they know their user specs and demographics. But, my suspicion is that the average age of the user base is increasing. It's a bit like the Harley Davidson situation in that respect, where they ultimately needs to be an approach that brings new blood on board before the existing user base dies off. I can see that being a real balancing act to get right, as you don't want to risk alienating your existing user base, but it's still critical to get fresh blood on board from somewhere. 

Edited October 12, 2022 by DementedHammer

[saihtam]

14 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Moderators can only do so much, and after the fact. And many SI staff have frankly has enough of the abuse over the years and I don't blame them. They have enough work going on, and taking extra time to come here, only to get abused isn't something most are interested in and rightly so. I won't mention names as they have PM'd privately in the past, but I've lost track of the number of Devs/QA who go into threads (typically bugs threads) try and answer something, get a torrent of abuse and have to drop me a PM so myself/another moderator can deal with it. I say all this as someone who repeatedly thinks we need more SI communication (and have mentioned this to Neil many a time) - if we want more interaction here, this place needs to be better when interacting/talking about devs/QA. 

It is inevitable in online forums etc. Abuse sadly is there and sometimes people here write good text in good intent, but the writing style is too neutral or negative, it is not always meant to be in bad way.

Love it that they sometimes lurk the forums to be honest. But the unstructured way of communication is the thing that gets people on their feet. Sometimes QA/dev lurks here, sometimes answers sometimes not. No consistency is happening, SI should make this organized. QA/dev coming on their own should not be the way. SI should have communication lines preped and how to deal with it. Some development diaries or talks more indepth of stuff is so welcomed. Give  glimps of what is happneing inside the game and behind the curtain. It is not only to get our hit of curiosity, it is to reduce the frustration that is happening in the community. Mods are not enough to give out transparency and info. We appreciate your effort and time sink you are doing here, it is crazy do be mod in these times. But it does not remove the fact the communication lacks by SI. Just like in other thread people bring out the new so called FMFC blog has been non existing. Why promise stuff there and nothing been shown.

[grade]

12 minutes ago, DementedHammer said:

I can totally relate to that mindset. As someone who works at a software company myself, I'd be soul destroying to put my heart and soul into something that I loved, and then have to deal with unwarranted, entitled abuse. Heck, it's bad enough just having to wade through the threads as a user. I just wish there was a stickied thread where all the official announcements went, so I didn't have to wade through pages and pages of negativity this time each year. 

 

Personally, I fail to understand the outrage and anger over a game that literally costs a couple of hours salary. I can understand people wanting things to be better for sure. But I can't understand the deep anger that some people are expressing on here. I want a set piece editor improvement as much as the next guy. But I see no reason to throw my toys out of the cot if I don't get it. It's not like SI owe me anything. 

Dev work is hard... we all know that. I even applaud to some of the stuff Si has done, like some flexibility to put our ideas into the game.

But again, in my view (feel free to disagree) is not to critic SI personnel, because I don't like that feeling. I don't like writing the posts above makes me feel drained and out of energy... too much negativity one go. But I feel I need to speak out... too much time being ignored, too much time feeling that we are one universe and SI in another.

I don't believe SI will change their ways, because the pre-sales record without any announcements is proof of their success and how they handle stuff.

In the end, vote with your wallet, I guess.

Edited October 12, 2022 by grade

[BuzzR]

As one who had a minor (?) disagreement with @themadsheep2001 some days ago that ended with 2 of my comments removed - I do think we can get carried away with some arguments and sometimes there is more sarcasm and bitterness than it should be, but I've never seen abuse on this forums. Probably is removed pretty quickly.

There is a lack of dev love in the skinning forums also. We are still poking our eyes in the dark with the skins - not knowing most of the time how to do things, always trying - always guessing. There are the mods, there are some experienced users there and that's it.

What I do feel is a form of ..general disregard. It feels that our suggestions, pleads and cries ( when suggestions are ignored for years) are ignored because there is no real feedback. For example, we do not know why there is no upgrade for Set Piece Creator for years, and we don't know if it' will be in the dev pipeline sometime. Because there is no communication really. We have no idea what's taking into account from the suggestion forum - for real.

 

[XaW]

1 hour ago, BuzzR said:

I've never seen abuse on this forums. Probably is removed pretty quickly.

That usually means we mods do our job well enough!

1 hour ago, BuzzR said:

What I do feel is a form of ..general disregard. It feels that our suggestions, pleads and cries ( when suggestions are ignored for years) are ignored because there is no real feedback. For example, we do not know why there is no upgrade for Set Piece Creator for years, and we don't know if it' will be in the dev pipeline sometime. Because there is no communication really. We have no idea what's taking into account from the suggestion forum - for real.

This is something I have total respect for and agree with. I'd love for SI to give more info about their road maps and overall plans in general. And I do understand they need to keep some secrets, but I still hope they will be more open going forward. I think the way they announced women's football was a step in the right direction, but I also think more openness would lead to good things for the community as a whole. I also understand the argument for NOT doing it, since even "our current plan is to implement X feature in FM25" will be held as a promise IF it for some reason were to be postponed a year due to time limits or severe issues or so. If SI had said that they plan on a set piece creator in FM26 now, then you can be sure that loads would harass because it would take too long, and if it was pushed to FM27, then all hell would break lose. So it's a double-edged sword potentially, but would be all for them giving general feedback in terms of "we are looking to implement this in the coming years", "this feature will be set into a long term plan, but in the short run it's unlikely", and "this is not something we look to add currently" for various features for example.

I hope this is a change that will happen, but I don't know any more than anyone else here.

[BuryBlade]

43 minutes ago, XaW said:

That usually means we mods do our job well enough!

This is something I have total respect for and agree with. I'd love for SI to give more info about their road maps and overall plans in general. And I do understand they need to keep some secrets, but I still hope they will be more open going forward. I think the way they announced women's football was a step in the right direction, but I also think more openness would lead to good things for the community as a whole. I also understand the argument for NOT doing it, since even "our current plan is to implement X feature in FM25" will be held as a promise IF it for some reason were to be postponed a year due to time limits or severe issues or so. If SI had said that they plan on a set piece creator in FM26 now, then you can be sure that loads would harass because it would take too long, and if it was pushed to FM27, then all hell would break lose. So it's a double-edged sword potentially, but would be all for them giving general feedback in terms of "we are looking to implement this in the coming years", "this feature will be set into a long term plan, but in the short run it's unlikely", and "this is not something we look to add currently" for various features for example.

I hope this is a change that will happen, but I don't know any more than anyone else here.

They could do this but be less specific to avoid as much ‘drama’

Announce the roadmap and ideas that are being considered or worked on but don’t advise when to expect them. 
 

We get info on future additions and how the game might look and SI don’t have to give any concrete dates. 

[forameuss]

9 minutes ago, BuryBlade said:

They could do this but be less specific to avoid as much ‘drama’

Announce the roadmap and ideas that are being considered or worked on but don’t advise when to expect them. 
 

We get info on future additions and how the game might look and SI don’t have to give any concrete dates. 

So idea A gets considered, even worked on, and the populace is absolutely delighted.  Unfortunately, idea A ends up not working the way it should, and gets shelved.  Populace is outraged.

I get where you're coming from, and I would also like to see that kind of information put out, I'm just not sure the wider community is mature enough to get that information without it going wrong.  Once you start saying "ok, but we won't tell them this" and "we can't tell them that" then it strips away more and more use from what they're saying and it all ends up being performative.  I'd far rather the developers actually developed, rather than spend their time trying to mould some announcement into a form that won't get them heat with people who were always going to think one way anyway.

[BuzzR]

1 hour ago, XaW said:

I also understand the argument for NOT doing it, since even "our current plan is to implement X feature in FM25" will be held as a promise IF it for some reason were to be postponed a year due to time limits or severe issues or so. If SI had said that they plan on a set piece creator in FM26 now, then you can be sure that loads would harass because it would take too long, and if it was pushed to FM27, then all hell would break lose.

I do understand that it's tough to swallow when someone is very very critical with your work or your plans, but also there are a lot of people complementing their work. I said it also.. and I hope some devs read it when I did - this game ( their work ) pulled me out from the darkness that loomed over me- depression and mental health issues hit me hard in the last couple of years. 

I do understand that they don't want to make promises but also.. you know, maybe they can take a chance with it, because at the end of day there will be only 10 -15,20 people complaining hard for a hypothetical postponement. How many people are active on the forums ? How many of them will be extremely critical ? It will be tolerable , I think.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by BuzzR
spelling

[(sic)]

1 hour ago, XaW said:

This is something I have total respect for and agree with. I'd love for SI to give more info about their road maps and overall plans in general. And I do understand they need to keep some secrets, but I still hope they will be more open going forward. I think the way they announced women's football was a step in the right direction, but I also think more openness would lead to good things for the community as a whole. I also understand the argument for NOT doing it, since even "our current plan is to implement X feature in FM25" will be held as a promise IF it for some reason were to be postponed a year due to time limits or severe issues or so. If SI had said that they plan on a set piece creator in FM26 now, then you can be sure that loads would harass because it would take too long, and if it was pushed to FM27, then all hell would break lose. So it's a double-edged sword potentially, but would be all for them giving general feedback in terms of "we are looking to implement this in the coming years", "this feature will be set into a long term plan, but in the short run it's unlikely", and "this is not something we look to add currently" for various features for example.

I hope this is a change that will happen, but I don't know any more than anyone else here.

I generally agree with this, but you can also look at it from another side. 

 

Quote

If SI had said that they plan on a set piece creator in FM26 now, then you can be sure that loads would harass because it would take too long, and if it was pushed to FM27, then all hell would break lose.

They don't need to specify when something is getting released.
The opposite of what you've said is what we have now. People are in the dark, "all hell breaking loose", people are outraged. All because something isn't added into the game, and especially because they don't know if it's being worked on, and if it's going to be implemented at all, ever. 

I'd much rather have people be annoyed because of one feature showcase where some feature is being delayed for a year, compared to people being constantly annoyed each year, because they don't see this new feature they've been asking for, and because they don't know if and when that feature will be released.

Just by saying "we are working on it for the future versions", you're doing a great job of addressing concerns. Compared to what we have now, which is silence.

Edited October 12, 2022 by (sic)

[XaW]

1 hour ago, BuryBlade said:

They could do this but be less specific to avoid as much ‘drama’

Announce the roadmap and ideas that are being considered or worked on but don’t advise when to expect them. 
 

We get info on future additions and how the game might look and SI don’t have to give any concrete dates. 

Yeah, as I said, I hope they do open up about these things as I generally feel that openness like this is better for everyone, and it can also help managing expectations.

40 minutes ago, BuzzR said:

I do understand that it's tough to swallow when someone is very very critical with your work or your plans, but also there are a lot of people complementing their work. I said it also.. and I hope some devs read it when I did - this game ( their work ) pulled me out from the darkness that loomed over me- depression and mental health issues hit me hard in the last couple of years. 

I do understand that they don't want to make promises but also.. you know, maybe they can take a chance with it, because at the end of day there will be only 10 -15,20 people complaining hard for a hypothetical postponement. How many people are active on the forums ? How many of them will be extremely critical ? It will be tolerable , I think.

Just to be clear, I don't think anyone at SI expects everyone to be only happy with things, but there is a difference in expressing a constructive criticism and harassment. Unfortunately, the latter often happens when the devs get involved. I'd love for them to come here more often and talk about stuff, and some still do on occasion, but it's not fun for them if they just get told they suck and should lose their job every time they pop in. That's also why we mods are so strict in shutting down those types of comments. It's not to silence criticism, but to allow for an open discussion. And it's not like it's most people, most people are happy to help out reporting stuff and come with good suggestions, but the minority that is bad is often also the loudest ones. And while we have tools to deal with it, some are VERY intent on spouting harassment here...

10 minutes ago, (sic) said:

I generally agree with this, but you can also look at it from another side. 

They don't need to specify when something is getting released.
The opposite of what you've said is what we have now. People are in the dark, "all hell breaking loose", people are outraged. All because something isn't added into the game, and especially because they don't know if it's being worked on, and if it's going to be implemented at all, ever. 

I'd much rather have people be annoyed because of one feature showcase where some feature is being delayed for a year, compared to people being constantly annoyed each year, because they don't see this new feature they've been asking for, and because they don't know if and when that feature will be released.

Just by saying "we are working on it for the future versions", you're doing a great job of addressing concerns. Compared to what we have now, which is silence.

Yeah, I as I said, I think this is a good idea, I'm just trying to view it from all angles so I understand why it might not always be a good thing if the plans go awry.

[grade]

59 minutes ago, XaW said:

Just to be clear, I don't think anyone at SI expects everyone to be only happy with things, but there is a difference in expressing a constructive criticism and harassment. Unfortunately, the latter often happens when the devs get involved. I'd love for them to come here more often and talk about stuff, and some still do on occasion, but it's not fun for them if they just get told they suck and should lose their job every time they pop in. That's also why we mods are so strict in shutting down those types of comments. It's not to silence criticism, but to allow for an open discussion. And it's not like it's most people, most people are happy to help out reporting stuff and come with good suggestions, but the minority that is bad is often also the loudest ones. And while we have tools to deal with it, some are VERY intent on spouting harassment here...

There are ways to deal with Trolls, in my view. if the moderators don't see it, there is report button, for us users to use it. But avoiding this community, because of some bad apples are insensitive to them... is not working in my view. But... that is big but, I'm not requesting for SI to post everything on the development process, some insights would be welcome, nor am I saying this is ALL what we are working on. But actual Dev diaries of features they do know will be in their next game (depth and individual features, not log to one single video, actual interviews and in depth exploration of the feature). Have montage of them banging the wall at 3 am to show how difficult to do these features (I'm exaggerating of course).

An announcement like women's football, well ahead in advanced was welcome change, it was announcement that was not included an expiration date, but this is where we are heading.

What I'm talking about is more of Tips and tricks stuff they used to do. Answer some questions, that devs know we users are overcomplicating and show us the simple way to use that tool. Or just simply answer some questions a five minute stuff that doesn't occupy the dev entire time. Or a video like a day in match engine engineer or the diference between Miles and his alter FM player and dress Miles with some sensors and shows how it translate to the match engine. Or run down blog of feature, from idea to the game. Or something in the lines, what do Si and devs like to be suggested more, or something simple feedback of certain tool. Or a AMA on any social media or even here, on the forum.

Things that improves transparency and trust... between us and the devs. But also show us, this is not simply a push of the button and the featured appeared made. Maybe, just maybe it can tone down the trolls.

Look I have been insensitive before, but probably if there was more transparency, like saying in 2018: Look we want to phase out FM Touch and actually improve speed and season duration on FM. We have our plans, but as always we are open to suggestions from our fanbase. or we want touch to make exclusive to iPad and tablets. How can we improve FM to our users that played Touch on Pc and Mac.

Something along those lines.

Edited October 12, 2022 by grade

[Ferocious289]

So me get this straight, the devs are not listening to the community because trolls happen to exist online? Welcome to 2022 folks, where there are always going to be disrupters/trolls on the internet, The trick is to grow thicker skin and ignore/block them and take on board the serious player's feedback

[HUNT3R]

2 hours ago, Ferocious289 said:

So me get this straight, the devs are not listening to the community because trolls happen to exist online? Welcome to 2022 folks, where there are always going to be disrupters/trolls on the internet, The trick is to grow thicker skin and ignore/block them and take on board the serious player's feedback

SI do listen to feedback. 

I think there are fewer posts from devs in the general areas of the forum compared to years ago (thinking specifically about when I joined, as it was one of the main reasons why I did) and I can understand why. A few years ago Seb posted in General Discussion and the Tactics forum quite often and it was almost always well received, so I'm sure you can make a case that SI could post more.

There has been a lot more activity in the bug tracker from SI, so that's definitely the way to go if there are issues to be reported. SI also actively monitor the Feature Suggestions section to sift through feature ideas and when the game is released, the Official Feedback thread is also closely followed.

[bryn23]

I'd like to see the game make more uses of more cores/threads, implement direct X 12, most computers from the last 6 years have more than 2/4 cores.

It's backwards compatible, so the lower spec users can still play, it is frustrating when you get bogged down with a decent amount of leagues, yet you still have cores that aren't being used.

 

 

[grade]

27 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

SI do listen to feedback. 

I think there are fewer posts from devs in the general areas of the forum compared to years ago (thinking specifically about when I joined, as it was one of the main reasons why I did) and I can understand why. A few years ago Seb posted in General Discussion and the Tactics forum quite often and it was almost always well received, so I'm sure you can make a case that SI could post more.

There has been a lot more activity in the bug tracker from SI, so that's definitely the way to go if there are issues to be reported. SI also actively monitor the Feature Suggestions section to sift through feature ideas and when the game is released, the Official Feedback thread is also closely followed.

I wouldn't demand for SI devs participate every day on the Official feedback, but things like: "Look we adjusted injuries rate or match engine got some tweaks or we tweak how players talk to you or any minor tweak and we would like feedback from you guys." Would be welcomed. The community would be more on the look out for that sort of tweaks and give more accurate feedback to devs.

For example.

Edited October 13, 2022 by grade

[themadsheep2001]

1 hour ago, grade said:

I wouldn't demand for SI devs participate every day on the Official feedback, but things like: "Look we adjusted injuries rate or match engine got some tweaks or we tweak how players talk to you or any minor tweak and we would like feedback from you guys." Would be welcomed. The community would be more on the look out for that sort of tweaks and give more accurate feedback to devs.

For example.

That kind of stuff is more likely to be in the the closed beta testing circles. 

And tbh we had the open all year round beta which was perfect for that and amount of feedback was minimal. Which is why there isn't an open all round beta. 

[DarJ]

On 11/10/2022 at 16:15, grade said:

SI. They are holding back the game

I will have to disagree with this. FM is trying to replicate something that occurs in real life (football)  and they have done this successfully to some extent even if it's not perfect yet. Football in itself doesn't change from year to year. I've talked about this a lot but I think FM had gotten to the point where it doesn't need anything big but just little refinements and I don't think the lack of competition is the reason (it might be 5 to 10% of the reason). Lets say for FM23 they had FIFA like graphics and a completely new set piece creator where you can even see you players train your routines, they somehow got licences to use all real stadiums, the regens actually look like real people and you can visibly see them age as they grow older, you can choose an attacking formation and a defensive formation etc. what would you expect to see in FM24? football didn't change, we will still come back to the point that there isn't much left to add other than to keep on refining the game

If you look at the smartphone industry where there is lot of competition there isn't much difference between a smartphone that comes out today and one that came out a year ago or 2 years ago.

I think the "issue" is yearly releases especially as the game is now matured. Even if at this point they are not starting from completely 0, they have to produce something that is playable, add some new things, test it and also give themselves time to fix certain issues before they can fully focus on what they have to do for the coming year. I think the same applies to smartphone manufacturers, laptop manufacturers etc. and you don't have to buy it every year, if you really want to see a noticeable difference then buy the game every 5 years. But this is a completely different discussion 

I'm not saying we shouldn't strive for improvement but at the end of the day, no company is your friend, they only purpose is to make profit and in the case of FM I wouldn't expect any huge changes with the match engine at least until they have exhausted all the options they have with the current engine or until it gets to the point where it would be cheaper to change it rather than continue to build upon the old one that they have to change anyway at some point. 

[DarJ]

On 12/10/2022 at 06:39, rp1966 said:

I'd say it's not a true 3D engine.

I think I've seem people in the past say that the 3D is built on top of the 2D engine

[aj6658]

26 minutes ago, DarJ said:

I will have to disagree with this. FM is trying to replicate something that occurs in real life (football)  and they have done this successfully to some extent even if it's not perfect yet. Football in itself doesn't change from year to year. I've talked about this a lot but I think FM had gotten to the point where it doesn't need anything big but just little refinements and I don't think the lack of competition is the reason (it might be 5 to 10% of the reason). Lets say for FM23 they had FIFA like graphics and a completely new set piece creator where you can even see you players train your routines, they somehow got licences to use all real stadiums, the regens actually look like real people and you can visibly see them age as they grow older, you can choose an attacking formation and a defensive formation etc. what would you expect to see in FM24? football didn't change, we will still come back to the point that there isn't much left to add other than to keep on refining the game

If you look at the smartphone industry where there is lot of competition there isn't much difference between a smartphone that comes out today and one that came out a year ago or 2 years ago.

I think the "issue" is yearly releases especially as the game is now matured. Even if at this point they are not starting from completely 0, they have to produce something that is playable, add some new things, test it and also give themselves time to fix certain issues before they can fully focus on what they have to do for the coming year. I think the same applies to smartphone manufacturers, laptop manufacturers etc. and you don't have to buy it every year, if you really want to see a noticeable difference then buy the game every 5 years. But this is a completely different discussion 

I'm not saying we shouldn't strive for improvement but at the end of the day, no company is your friend, they only purpose is to make profit and in the case of FM I wouldn't expect any huge changes with the match engine at least until they have exhausted all the options they have with the current engine or until it gets to the point where it would be cheaper to change it rather than continue to build upon the old one that they have to change anyway at some point. 

• Agree that things to be added is very slim but what people want is investment in core elements - there is alot of scope to improve the ME and the graphics and the AI
• Using current phone competition is not a good comparison as its at the retention phase. Basically the end of its life without any major breakthroughs. Look at it during the early iPhone years, the level of improvement we saw between handsets year on year was massive. 
• Competition Is not 5-10% of the reason. Just imagine EA sports came out with a competitor and it had Fifa 08 graphics, a proper set piece editor, smarter AI transfers module, comparable ME but they didn't have a squad planner, support confidence, social media or the data hub. People would choose the better product and next year FM have to up their game and deliver something better. Its exactly what happened in Championship manager

[aj6658]

Zealand has spoken 

[FelixForte]

46 minutes ago, aj6658 said:

Zealand has spoken 

He showed on stream yesterday that he's already played FM23 for 3 hours. So no graphic increases to be expected

[themadsheep2001]

2 hours ago, aj6658 said:

Zealand has spoken 

For every tweet there's a counter tweet 

Me? I'd always like to see everything improved, but none of it will ever matter to me if the Match engine and AI aren't as good. 

 

 

[grade]

19 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

For every tweet there's a counter tweet

Me? I'd always like to see everything improved, but none of it will ever matter to me if the Match engine and AI aren't as good. 

 

 

No one is playing or will play FM for graphics (match graphics specially).  They go to be manager of the team. However, being manager means that match engine or its 3d graphics is a core feature of the game... at least for me.

[Zapoleon]

The whole idea the game is held back by low specs is untrue I think. As many others have pointed out other games offer lower settings etc to allow people with older specs to play. 

Really it all comes down to a lack of drive to improve the game. They are content with making smaller changes year in year out. 

I remember in the first few years in particular when they first released the 3d match engine there was big effort to really take big leaps forward each year to get it looking much better. As i say for the most part now I think they lack such drive and are more content with only making smaller updates and changes. 

 

[wakey]

The problem is people keep bringing up FIFA and also F1 Manager when discussing this and it’s a different kettle of fish with both. Management games unlike games like FIFA need the player to see the whole picture so you need a much more pulled out camera. That means you lose the details and it’s the details that add the quality, if you could put FIFA's assets into FM simply because of this it would look much worse. And unlike F1 Manager you have much more that you have to be able to see, in F1 Manager you don’t even need to watch your 2 cars most of the time but certainly never need to see the other team cars as all the important info comes from the data.

And then the other issue is licencing. Where better graphics may have a benefit is on replays, if like with FIFA you could cut to closer up more cinematic cut scenes for these that could be great but you then have the fact they don't have access to likeness rights for most of the players. Even FIFA only have about 19k players in their database compared to FM that has around 300k so most players would have to be generic ones which I’m not sure makes better graphics then worthwhile. SI are unlikely to be able to get or afford to acquire licences to 3D model all the players 

[saihtam]

On 15/10/2022 at 05:17, Zapoleon said:

The whole idea the game is held back by low specs is untrue I think. As many others have pointed out other games offer lower settings etc to allow people with older specs to play. 

Really it all comes down to a lack of drive to improve the game. They are content with making smaller changes year in year out.

 

You do understand that these go hand in hand? You cant build something new shiny 23th floor when the first ones are slowyl rotting and unstable. To build top of existing engine you need to improve it. If you still have min specs from 15-16 years ago, then u are limiting the core processing and power to those levels. Last 15 years there has been many leaps to take advantege off. Our idea is not to kick out people with lower specs, they probably can still play if raise the lower spec cap as peopel are not running so old computers(some might) Even if rising into multy core CPUs etc, still lower end PCs can handle it. It feels legacy code they are trying to improve that is hitting their limits.

Good example is Elder Scroll games. They are using their ancient engin on all their games,. But they upgrade it and raise the sepcs to bring more stuff into the game and make it look better.

 

On 15/10/2022 at 00:45, themadsheep2001 said:

For every tweet there's a counter tweet 

Me? I'd always like to see everything improved, but none of it will ever matter to me if the Match engine and AI aren't as good. 

 

 

My idea of this threath was never the graphics. Yes it would be good to see a bit better fidelity in stadiums etc, finally get out of the 2d circles = 3d player. My bet beeve is that core gameplay, tactical options, differential in saves, AI squad - tactics - transfers - etc could be definetly more complex and fun than it is right now. Why people dont understand that specs you are building on your software = what and how much you can build on it. SI developers are badass guys that they are working on this for real. But definetly their life might be better also if the  engine etc is more modernized.

I am glad graphics are brought out more and with this core evoultion of FM. But people are too hardcore in the FIFA examples and dishing out lower spec are needed so much. 

[aj6658]

On 15/10/2022 at 03:17, Zapoleon said:

The whole idea the game is held back by low specs is untrue I think. As many others have pointed out other games offer lower settings etc to allow people with older specs to play. 

Really it all comes down to a lack of drive to improve the game. They are content with making smaller changes year in year out. 

I remember in the first few years in particular when they first released the 3d match engine there was big effort to really take big leaps forward each year to get it looking much better. As i say for the most part now I think they lack such drive and are more content with only making smaller updates and changes. 

 

Saying its a lack of drive to improve the game is a bit rude to the people who work on the game. I have no doubt that they are all passionate about FM and want to make a great game. It maybe a lack of drive from Senior leadership to invest more money to really to take things to the next level.

What i mean by that is to take the game further you need to hire more people to add features. As they add more people, more project managers need to be hired as well to keep organised and keep people on it. The studio will balloon. I know that the studio has brought in alot of new people in and is the biggest its been. 

I do think competition is a factor - Imagine if FIFA manager is back and it had a better transfer system, better graphics but everything else was the same. You would see people flock to that game and it would mean that there would be more pressure from management to deliver more. Thats just the nature of competition. Doesnt matter how passionate you are, having that pressure drives people and team to deliver more.  

Lower specs machines do hold the game as well. When adding features you first consider what is possible. For example, if they were going to add a completely new ME, the first thought is what are we aiming to achieve. No point developing a system that can only run on the very best computers if they are aiming to play on a range of machines 

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by aj6658

[kevhamster]

32 minutes ago, aj6658 said:

Saying its a lack of drive to improve the game is a bit rude to the people who work on the game. I have no doubt that they are all passionate about FM and want to make a great game. It maybe a lack of drive from Senior leadership to invest more money to really to take things to the next level.

What i mean by that is to take the game further you need to hire more people to add features. As they add more people, more project managers need to be hired as well to keep organised and keep people on it. The studio will balloon. I know that the studio has brought in alot of new people in and is the biggest its been. 

I do think competition is a factor - Imagine if FIFA manager is back and it had a better transfer system, better graphics but everything else was the same. You would see people flock to that game and it would mean that there would be more pressure from management to deliver more. Thats just the nature of competition. Doesnt matter how passionate you are, having that pressure drives people and team to deliver more.  

Lower specs machines do hold the game as well. When adding features you first consider what is possible. For example, if they were going to add a completely new ME, the first thought is what are we aiming to achieve. No point developing a system that can only run on the very best computers if they are aiming to play on a range of machines 

 

Just to add to this, people don't seem to take into account that as the game is on an annual release cycle, there is only so much SI can do in that time.  So, what we see is incremental changes so it doesn't seem to change much year on year.  But, go back to FM14 for example and then fire up FM22 and you'll see how much has been changed or added in that time,

SI want to make the game as good as possible, and to suggest otherwise is absolute nonsense.  FM is everything to them, without it they don't exist and without its continued success they're finished - so to try and suggest there's a lack of drive to improve the game is one of the most ignorant things I've ever seen written on this forum.

[aj6658]

12 minutes ago, kevhamster said:

Just to add to this, people don't seem to take into account that as the game is on an annual release cycle, there is only so much SI can do in that time.  So, what we see is incremental changes so it doesn't seem to change much year on year.  But, go back to FM14 for example and then fire up FM22 and you'll see how much has been changed or added in that time,

SI want to make the game as good as possible, and to suggest otherwise is absolute nonsense.  FM is everything to them, without it they don't exist and without its continued success they're finished - so to try and suggest there's a lack of drive to improve the game is one of the most ignorant things I've ever seen written on this forum.

Think partly the issue recently is there must be a big project in the background being worked on. The fact that their job descriptions mention a big technological shift in the studio suggests that.

Can you imagine how difficult it is to manage delivering a game that people will buy while also creating something that pushes it to being the next generation version. Makes sense why this year its really been alot of small changes.

Like whats the point of releasing a new set piece manager when the core coding is gonna be redone and it may not work in the new system 

[rp1966]

12 minutes ago, kevhamster said:

Just to add to this, people don't seem to take into account that as the game is on an annual release cycle, there is only so much SI can do in that time. 

A year's development time is still a year's development time regardless of whether it's an annual release or a 5 year game life with patches and DLC.  The database is the time pressured factor and probably some things arising from licensing changes.  But for core game features the development roadmap is no different to any other game; it's just a case of what you have ready and choose to include in any particular annual release.

If anything it's a little easier to manage as SI aren't really expected to update anything significantly except at the annual release, whereas a game with a quarterly update schedule will have the expectation of something tangible with each patch. 

[DominicForza]

I can only speak for myself (but I'm sure I'm not the only one)...

 

If SI announced this years FM would be their worst FM ever, with less features, worse AI, inferior graphics, less playable leagues, less official licenses I'd click PRE-ORDER NOW....without a discount.  

Feel free to blame me!  You're welcome

Edited October 18, 2022 by DominicForza
typo

[muzza_m]

Personally I would prefer better graphics. I don't see why minimum specs would need to change much.

The game can always be run on 2D with one or two leagues. Those who don't care about graphics won't mind 2D.

Obviously I am not expecting FIFA graphics but some improvement would be good.

[muzza_m]

On 18/10/2022 at 11:56, rp1966 said:

A year's development time is still a year's development time regardless of whether it's an annual release or a 5 year game life with patches and DLC.  The database is the time pressured factor and probably some things arising from licensing changes.  But for core game features the development roadmap is no different to any other game; it's just a case of what you have ready and choose to include in any particular annual release.

If anything it's a little easier to manage as SI aren't really expected to update anything significantly except at the annual release, whereas a game with a quarterly update schedule will have the expectation of something tangible with each patch. 

Yes but then we wouldn't have to fork out ~£35 each year for what is effectively a roster update and a few very minor features.

I would be in favour of a 2-3 year release cycle. Even if it means a slight increase in price, say to ~£45.

At the moment it just seems like minimal changes.

Edited October 22, 2022 by muzza_m

[muzza_m]

On 18/10/2022 at 16:03, DominicForza said:

I can only speak for myself (but I'm sure I'm not the only one)...

 

If SI announced this years FM would be their worst FM ever, with less features, worse AI, inferior graphics, less playable leagues, less official licenses I'd click PRE-ORDER NOW....without a discount.  

Feel free to blame me!  You're welcome

Then you may as well just play FM22 with a mod.

[trevjim]

I think it's an excuse they use now. There are mobile games that look better. Loads of games have graphics settings low/medium/high/ultra etc to accommodate different specs. As do FM. So no reason they can't push the envelope on it

[John Joe O'toole]

I don't think so, I'm happy with how it is. OG players don't really care about the graphics, you cant have it too demanding as people on low end machines will struggle to play therefore reducing income. 

[BuzzR]

49 minutes ago, John Joe O'toole said:

I don't think so, I'm happy with how it is. OG players don't really care about the graphics, you cant have it too demanding as people on low end machines will struggle to play therefore reducing income. 

I think this is a false problem, perpetuated year after year for so long so it has become some kind of ( monster ) fallacy. 

There is an entire debate on the "FM23 headlines features revealed" topic and I would not repeat here everything from there.

I will state only this, again : Improved match graphics will ONLY affect the representation of an already decided / computed match. A re-computation of the match outcome based on changes during the match is on the CPU not on the GPU.

There is always a 2D match option. There are always Graphics Options to tune down resolution, texture quality, shadows, etc. 

There will be a breaking point regarding video libraries, directX etc.. but the OS will catch up with you before an old graphic card will run out of supported graphic libraries. Look now at the Mac users, for FM23 they NEED a specific OS ( i.e. OS 11 ).  

I think we should stop this trend that points towards the " low end PCs users " as the scape goat for not improving graphics year after year.

And obviously if yo don't really care about graphics, others do. You can disregard them even they are improved to a decent level, let's say  FM17 level.

Edited October 23, 2022 by BuzzR
Spelling

[ImDaWeasel]

FM is being held back by SI catering for those with low specs. They'll have all the data on what machines are playing the latest iteration each year and probably fear making any sort of jump.