How do player mentalities link with team mentality?

[jammy8892]

I'm just getting back into FM after a good number of years away from the game. One thing I'm struggling to get my head around is how player mentalities (attack/support/defend) relate to the team mentality (very defensive, defensive, cautious etc.).

I tend to play as weaker teams so often favour a counter attacking style of play. That to me suggests I should be using either defensive or cautious as my team mentality, with support/defend as my player mentalities, to ensure I keep things tight. But where does the counter attacking intent come into play? Playing anyone with an attacking mentality makes me think that they won't be doing their part defensively, and I'll get exposed.

To give an extreme example, what would happen if I set my team mentality to very defensive yet all my player mentalities to attack?

Thanks for any advice!

[DimitrisLar]

10 hours ago, jammy8892 said:

I'm just getting back into FM after a good number of years away from the game. One thing I'm struggling to get my head around is how player mentalities (attack/support/defend) relate to the team mentality (very defensive, defensive, cautious etc.).

I tend to play as weaker teams so often favour a counter attacking style of play. That to me suggests I should be using either defensive or cautious as my team mentality, with support/defend as my player mentalities, to ensure I keep things tight. But where does the counter attacking intent come into play? Playing anyone with an attacking mentality makes me think that they won't be doing their part defensively, and I'll get exposed.

To give an extreme example, what would happen if I set my team mentality to very defensive yet all my player mentalities to attack?

Thanks for any advice!

i think the more defensive minded your team is, the more attacking mentalities you use. Not all the team of course but when you attack you have to make sure you give players some choices to interplay before they fall back again.

To give an opposite extreme example, imagine you're in your box, get the ball, counterattack and there is only one player attacking. It probably fails

[Experienced Defender]

10 hours ago, jammy8892 said:

I tend to play as weaker teams so often favour a counter attacking style of play. That to me suggests I should be using either defensive or cautious as my team mentality

No, that's (usually) a mistake. If you want to play specifically a counter-attacking style, a bit higher team mentality (Balanced or Positive) is more useful than defensive ones. Because higher mentalities - among other things -  encourage faster attacking transitions, which are key for counter-attacking styles. The defensive solidity and stability should be primarily achieved through good compactness (D-line and LOE combo) and a balanced and sensible setup of roles and duties (which is important for any style of play btw).

 

10 hours ago, jammy8892 said:

To give an extreme example, what would happen if I set my team mentality to very defensive yet all my player mentalities to attack?

The fact is that more defensive team mentalities generally allow for having a bit more attack duties within the setup than otherwise, but it does not mean that going to an extreme (one way or the other) is a good idea. A low team mentality alone does not make you safe(r) defensively, and it's not what the mentality is primarily about.

[jammy8892]

18 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

No, that's (usually) a mistake. If you want to play specifically a counter-attacking style, a bit higher team mentality (Balanced or Positive) is more useful than defensive ones. Because higher mentalities - among other things -  encourage faster attacking transitions, which are key for counter-attacking styles. The defensive solidity and stability should be primarily achieved through good compactness (D-line and LOE combo) and a balanced and sensible setup of roles and duties (which is important for any style of play btw).

 

The fact is that more defensive team mentalities generally allow for having a bit more attack duties within the setup than otherwise, but it does not mean that going to an extreme (one way or the other) is a good idea. A low team mentality alone does not make you safe(r) defensively, and it's not what the mentality is primarily about.

Interesting, thanks for the reply. As I say, I'm picking things up as I go along so I'm grateful for the advice. It's confusing that the default C-A tactics would have you go with a Cautious mentality.

So based on what you've said, my take on a very basic flat-back-four C-A tactic would be something like:

Mentality = Balanced / Positive
Formation = 4-4-2 / 4-4-1-1 / 4-1-4-1
Lower defensive line / Lower LOE
Tempo = Faster
Passing = More Direct
Distribution = Quick
CBs = Defend
FBs = Defend / Support
CMs = Defend / Support
WMs = Support / Attack
AM = Support / Attack
ST = Attack

Obviously there would be tweaks depending on attributes and PPMs, but is that a decent starting point?

[Kuchiki]

3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

No, that's (usually) a mistake. If you want to play specifically a counter-attacking style, a bit higher team mentality (Balanced or Positive) is more useful than defensive ones. Because higher mentalities - among other things -  encourage faster attacking transitions, which are key for counter-attacking styles. The defensive solidity and stability should be primarily achieved through good compactness (D-line and LOE combo) and a balanced and sensible setup of roles and duties (which is important for any style of play btw).

 

The fact is that more defensive team mentalities generally allow for having a bit more attack duties within the setup than otherwise, but it does not mean that going to an extreme (one way or the other) is a good idea. A low team mentality alone does not make you safe(r) defensively, and it's not what the mentality is primarily about.

This is going to be confusing for a lot of players including myself because the tactical creator suggests a cautious mentality - if choosing the counter attacking template, at least that's how it is in FM19.

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, jammy8892 said:

It's confusing that the default C-A tactics would have you go with a Cautious mentality

If you are referring to the so-called preset tactics, they can be misleading, so do not follow them blindly. I personally never use presets, precisely for that reason (besides my general preference to create tactics myself). 

Now, to be clear... it's not to say that you cannot create a counter tactic under the cautious mentality. You can,  but it will be more tricky to do and probably not working as smoothly as on a bit higher mentality. 

4 hours ago, jammy8892 said:

So based on what you've said, my take on a very basic flat-back-four C-A tactic would be something like:

Mentality = Balanced / Positive

Okay  

 

4 hours ago, jammy8892 said:

Formation = 4-4-2 / 4-4-1-1 / 4-1-4-1

442/4411 - okay 

4141 - depends on which variant of 4141 (with flat midfield 4 or the so-called 4123 wide). 

4 hours ago, jammy8892 said:

Lower defensive line / Lower LOE

Lower LOE - yes. But defensive line should rather be standard (for the sake of better/optimal vertical compactness + to avoid inviting too much pressure). 

 

4 hours ago, jammy8892 said:

Tempo = Faster

Not necessarily. Depends on the mentality and passing style. 

 

4 hours ago, jammy8892 said:

Passing = More Direct

Like tempo - depends on the mentality and tempo (as these 3 are interrelated and work in conjunction). 

 

4 hours ago, jammy8892 said:

Distribution = Quick

Okay  

 

4 hours ago, jammy8892 said:

CBs = Defend
FBs = Defend / Support
CMs = Defend / Support
WMs = Support / Attack
AM = Support / Attack
ST = Attack

Definitely both forward players - in this case they are the striker and AMC - should be on attack duty (in the 442, both strikers would be on attack duty). But roles are also important, not just duties. 

Other roles/duties can vary depending on your players, the team mentality you play on and other team instructions, but some average counter tactic using the 4411 system would more or less look like this:

PFat

APat

IWsu       CMde      BBM       WMsu

WBsu(or FBat)   CDde  CDde   FBsu

SKde/su

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Kuchiki said:

This is going to be confusing for a lot of players including myself because the tactical creator suggests a cautious mentality - if choosing the counter attacking template, at least that's how it is in FM19

I agree it can be confusing for many people, but that's how it works. And FM20 is basically same as FM19 in this particular respect (tactical creator). 

[FMunderachiever]

51 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I agree it can be confusing for many people, but that's how it works. And FM20 is basically same as FM19 in this particular respect (tactical creator). 

Would it be fair to say in very general terms:

1) if you want patient build up, then you want to LOWER your mentality, so your players naturally look for shorter passing options and more methodical buildup without needlessly turning over the ball, but defensively you would want your defensive instructions to be MORE URGENT, counter press, tighter marking etc because logically, you should achieve a degree of compactness from the fact your players are making shorter passes to each other without having to sit them deeper behind the ball.

2) If you want a counter attack based team, youd sit the team deeper to achieve vertical compactness, so not pressing from the front and perhaps even REGROUPING into a defensive shape as a whole, but then look to use a combination of high mentality, attacking player roles and counter/pass into space to encourage fast, risky transitions when posession is won?

 

Perhaps not explained that very well but essentially using some opposites to what youd intuitively think of?

[nidhar.ram]

@FMunderachiever - Could you please elaborate on 1st point please?

[FMunderachiever]

4 minutes ago, nidhar.ram said:

@FMunderachiever - Could you please elaborate on 1st point please?

Certainly.

So in my eyes if you want to play what youd describe as patient build up football, the sort you see under Pep Guardiola for example. youd think logcally, they dominate the ball, pass and move, score lots of goals.....the are "positive" or "attacking" to anyone who doesnt play this game.

But thats not really the case on the game.

On the game as i see it, youd lower the mentality, because lowering the mentality will also shorten the passing, and will mean players attempt less low percentage passes.

Of course you could make individual players try those passes but as a whole, transitions would be more patient.

However given that you build up slowly, more people will be involved in the build up and be closer to the ball when you lose the ball, therefore it must make sense that if you lower the mentality, defensively you should be MORE proactive in winning it back, because more of your players will be around the ball when you do lose it.

 

[nidhar.ram]

Thanks for the explanation. This has cleared a lot of things around mentality when setting up a tactic.

When playing on low mentality, Is it advisable to use adventurous roles like Roaming playmaker, Mezalla, Trequartista, etc.? Of course, balance is key to everything but generally speaking is it okay? 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, nidhar.ram said:

When playing on low mentality, Is it advisable to use adventurous roles like Roaming playmaker, Mezalla, Trequartista, etc.?

That's not so much (if at all) about the mentality as it is about your style of play. 

 

2 hours ago, FMunderachiever said:

if you want patient build up, then you want to LOWER your mentality, so your players naturally look for shorter passing options and more methodical buildup without needlessly turning over the ball

This makes sense to some degree, but there is a trick. Lowering the mentality is not the same as playing on a lower mentality. For example, lowering your team mentality from Attacking to Positive is not the same as lowering from Balanced to Cautious (let alone defensive). 

So if you talk about playing on a low(er) mentality - e.g. cautious or defensive - as a way of playing possession-oriented football via more patient build-up play, then you need to be aware that these lower mentalities can also lead to players (especially defenders) hoofing the ball more frequently when pressed by the opposition. Because lower mentalities also mean less appetite for risk, so players are more inclined to clear the ball to safety in dangerous situations (as opposed to working it around by exchanging short passes between themselves). 

[Robson 07]

On 22/04/2020 at 10:56, jammy8892 said:

It's confusing that the default C-A tactics would have you go with a Cautious mentality.

 

On 22/04/2020 at 15:39, Experienced Defender said:

If you are referring to the so-called preset tactics, they can be misleading, so do not follow them blindly.

@jammy8892 I think the presets are possibly underused and under valued.  It would be great to see some more people explore them.  As ED states though you maybe have to work them into shape here and there.  That may mean a change of mentality, add/remove an instruction or change a role.  In your example, give 'Fluid Counter Attack' a try on Positive mentality, see if it fits better.

[alanschu14]

On 22/04/2020 at 12:01, Experienced Defender said:

So if you talk about playing on a low(er) mentality - e.g. cautious or defensive - as a way of playing possession-oriented football via more patient build-up play, then you need to be aware that these lower mentalities can also lead to players (especially defenders) hoofing the ball more frequently when pressed by the opposition. Because lower mentalities also mean less appetite for risk, so players are more inclined to clear the ball to safety in dangerous situations (as opposed to working it around by exchanging short passes between themselves). 

Ran into this in my game. I've developed a pretty nice little 4-4-2 tactic that has done very well for me in Vanarama National as well as Skybet League Two. I typically wanted to play a possession wing attack, holding possession until I could get the ball to wide players to feed into the box.

My mentality is "Attacking" but I've slowed down the tempo a lot, and shortened the passing. I tried this at first with a more cautious mentality, but found I was struggling with possession because my defenders in particular were a bit too eager to punt the ball away. (Of course I've been caught a few times of them holding the ball and losing it to a pressing forward, but it's rare enough and our results are excellent so I accept it). I wouldn't say it's a "counter attacking" set up by any means, but with my two forwards on attacking duties, 1 winger, and the opposite side wing back, we are able to leverage our aggressive counter press into opportunities for quick striking counter attacks.

[Experienced Defender]

2 minutes ago, alanschu14 said:

Ran into this in my game. I've developed a pretty nice little 4-4-2 tactic that has done very well for me in Vanarama National as well as Skybet League Two. I typically wanted to play a possession wing attack, holding possession until I could get the ball to wide players to feed into the box.

My mentality is "Attacking" but I've slowed down the tempo a lot, and shortened the passing. I tried this at first with a more cautious mentality, but found I was struggling with possession because my defenders in particular were a bit too eager to punt the ball away. (Of course I've been caught a few times of them holding the ball and losing it to a pressing forward, but it's rare enough and our results are excellent so I accept it). I wouldn't say it's a "counter attacking" set up by any means, but with my two forwards on attacking duties, 1 winger, and the opposite side wing back, we are able to leverage our aggressive counter press into opportunities for quick striking counter attacks.

Good. I am glad you've managed to create a tactic that suits your team and gives you the football you want to play