attacking width and build up issues

[DimitrisLar]

hi guys! i'm in a little confusion and i want to share my problems, just in case someone help me understand how to make a play of tiki taka with, recently,my Lazio team. It's not that my team is doing bad, we are within the first 4, 4-5 points far from 1st place, but i play in serie A where Inter won last years league title with 109 points, while in the same time i won the bundesliga with Gladbach with 70! That gap and the instructions or roles in my team is the problem i face cause against much lesser teams who defend deep is where i'll bridge it. Against the top 4 i had very good performances and results. I'll post my tactic and then explain the choice of the TI's and finally what i dont like in my team.

the tactic http://prntscr.com/rzz7qo

we may seem to overkill with the passing, and we do, but..well lets start.

From right to left, Work Ball Into Box and be more expressive are ticked cause i don't want my team to play long balls, especially from one winger to the other, when they have a logic recycling passing choice who can bring the ball to the other side better, or even try a 1-2 to escape their situation. 

Lower tempo and much shorter passing. The first one help me a) to support my attacking players better and b) to help my build up so my defenders dont go route one if pressed. they just stop, take a look around andchoose well. I ve countered all heavy pressing teams i ve faced pretty well. Here comes dribbles less also.

Now my biggest issue. Attacking width and play through the middle. The first is at fairly narrow cause i want my team to attack through the middle. If i place it to fairly wide, which is the mentality's stantard choice, we are starting building through the wings going all the way until we reach the corner or if after 30 passes we can't proceed, someone makes a long range pass to the other side, usually a bad one, intercepted from the opposite team. Play through the middle is for the dynamic approach of through the middle passing. I need my middle players to be more aggressive looking to their middle forward options.

 We are playing very good football. I dont wanna be misunderstood and it's not like hey you overkill it with the passing. passing is fine, my team goes forward in a very good manner, passages to the enemy field are fine exploited. The only issue i have is that my WB and my W, the players which i hope to stretch my enemy line, are into the box at the end. Ok my WB arrives into the box, sometimes scoring a great screamer, but that is after build up from the right to the left, or by building to the right and crossing to the left far post. My W however is even in support or attack duty, is camped in the box since we arrive out of it. Even building from left to right or just a cross from the left to the right wing, he doesnt attack, he is already there also reducing the space my mezzala would find productive for his moving. I know It's cause of the narrow attacking width but if I change it the whole whing collapses. Against bigger teams its also an issue but they just defend wider and everyone has a little more space to exploit. 

I hope for the best.

cheers

[DimitrisLar]

just got disgusted with the game and i go in every game with commentary and making substitutes. Got out of CL and waiting for more to come! thanks guys

[sheyner]

You can try the Inverted Winger with stay wide PI or dropping the Winger to the RM strata so he starts deeper before going into to the box. You have too many people supporting play and expecting passes to feet but no one making runs (This combined with dribble less and WBitB makes your team sterile when they have the ball). Also, much shorter passing already decreases the tempo so you're letting the opposition recover their shape. Those are some things i can think when seeing the tactic. Try to tone down some instructions and see if this helps your players getting the ball in better positions.

[DimitrisLar]

44 minutes ago, sheyner said:

You can try the Inverted Winger with stay wide PI or dropping the Winger to the RM strata so he starts deeper before going into to the box. You have too many people supporting play and expecting passes to feet but no one making runs (This combined with dribble less and WBitB makes your team sterile when they have the ball). Also, much shorter passing already decreases the tempo so you're letting the opposition recover their shape. Those are some things i can think when seeing the tactic. Try to tone down some instructions and see if this helps your players getting the ball in better positions.

i ve applied all of your advices in pieces of play in a game vs benevento.

all advices except i raised the tempo and left much shorter passing untouched until 15 min: 

Left Wingback roams with the ball to the center and dribbles all the time. Never made it to a crossing position, neither received high as before. Going for weird maybe crossing while closed down but had 2 players as option to pass.

right Inverted winger(a): sandwitching with the mezzala, dribbling a lot, bypassed always by the supporting wingback (and very aggressively) when he received the ball in our field

Till 15m 140 passes, sterile attacks, 1 shot only

Changed the duty of the IW into Support: allows room for the Mezzala, Wingback on his side not so aggressive

Till 30m 290 passes, , went to 4 shots, got a goal from a penalty at 30 exactly!

Changed passing lenght to shorter, left tempo to standard now: Left Wingback received 2 times, got into more dangerous situations while building up from defence but escaped nice and clean.

Till 45m 433 passes, sterile slopy quick attacks, shots up to 8.

Changed passing to Much shorter and my right winger who was Gabriel Barbosa (comes inside from wings trait) with a regen 23yo who has Hugs Line as a trait: somehow team found space much better at the right flank. Right Wingback roams aggressively and receiving ball high up in a position to cross. Never made it. Left Wingback had also more room, made runs like he is Cristiano Ronaldo (thank god its Benevento  )

Till 60m  543 passes, sterile slopy quick attacks, shots up to 9. 

Changed passing to shorter and left tempo to standard. OH MY GOD I GO BLIND! 

Till 75 605 passes, etc etc, shots up to 11

For the remaining of the game i switched to my tactic and i kept the IW 7min in support duty and 7 minutes in attack. His movements at the opponents area, when we were waiting for a cross from the left, were the same, close to the GK box. I dont know the effect of the midfield strata yet, the only thing i want is for him to be 5 meters away from where he stands. Thats all.

[GianniM]

Exactly what @sheyner is saying. 

• Much shorter passing
• Lower tempo
• Dribble less
• Play out of defense
• Work ball into box

All of these together make your play very very slow, so defensive sides can just sit back and will always be ahead of you. Add to that: 

• Play through the middle
• Fairly narrow 

And they will be even more comfortable sitting in their narrow defensive block, because you're moving towards the the area they've already packed and therefore where they are strongest.

Plus every attacker on support, will mean no-one looking to make runs to get through the defense. 

So first I'd go for less TI's, and a bit more adventurous, say:

• Shorter passing
• Work ball into box
• Be more expressive
• Higher tempo
• Wider

This should bring a bit more unexpected play to open up the opponents' defense. 

by the way you can just CTRL+V a screenshot in here

[DimitrisLar]

7 hours ago, GianniM said:

Exactly what @sheyner is saying. 

• Much shorter passing
• Lower tempo
• Dribble less
• Play out of defense
• Work ball into box

All of these together make your play very very slow, so defensive sides can just sit back and will always be ahead of you. Add to that: 

• Play through the middle
• Fairly narrow 

And they will be even more comfortable sitting in their narrow defensive block, because you're moving towards the the area they've already packed and therefore where they are strongest.

Plus every attacker on support, will mean no-one looking to make runs to get through the defense. 

So first I'd go for less TI's, and a bit more adventurous, say:

• Shorter passing
• Work ball into box
• Be more expressive
• Higher tempo
• Wider

This should bring a bit more unexpected play to open up the opponents' defense. 

by the way you can just CTRL+V a screenshot in here

i switched even tempo to muck slower and believe it or not it worked! Together with pass into space. i had an unbeaten 16 games record, gone to the semis of uefa cup, got the italian cup and my team played some extremely high tempo passing while escaping press but was very smart in its movements up front. Some times i played 16-20 passes moving up from one side to the other and exploiting the opposite winger. sometimes i saw my playmaker receiving the ball, holding for 3-4 seconds, everybody moving to the center and giving an excellent ball to the wingback who was going alone all the way to a crossing position. Sometimes i scored goals like the argentina goal from world cup 2006! Sometimes my wonderkid left footed right winger was doing his dazzling things goin all the way for a 1v1.

I had this idea while i was reading a post in this forum where someone said that guardiola wants high tempo cause he wants decisive passes and i thought s**t no! i've seen guardiola from the start, watched the 2009 real-barcelona over 10 times, so no! he doesn't want high tempo passes, he wants correct passes. Do you know what i saw from very low tempo? that teams couldnt park the bus against me! cause they had several of my players exploring their options in the middle of the pitch. we were not in their final third, we reached their final third in a blink of an eye though. with much shorter passing and much lower tempo. I dont know how to upload a video here. 

Also wider attacking width doesn;t only open the oppositions defence cause of the attacking players positioning in the final third, it also obligates your team to play through the flanks. I watched a video from rashidi where he said that and i tested it. I tested even attacking width wide with the focus through the middle and it was again a flank building thing. So my teams power is in the centre and wide attacking width is a no-no. definitely no-no

[Manutd1999]

Quote

i switched even tempo to muck slower and believe it or not it worked!

This is interesting, it's inspired me to do some tests for myself! Maybe something like this for the TIs, I'll see how it goes:

- Positive mentality
- Much shorter passing
- Much lower tempo
- WBIB
- Play out of defence
- Pass into space
- Be more expressive

"Conventional" wisdom on these forums would say that much lower tempo + much shorter passing is "tactical overkill" but I agree that this probably best describes how tiki-taka is actually played.

The key might be having good enough players with exceptional vision/passing ability to unlock defences. I doubt this would work with poor or even average sides. Think of the difference between Spain 2010 and Spain 2018. Both teams played a similar style, but without the once-in-a-generation midfield talents of Xavi/Iniesta et al. the 2018 side lacked the creativity to score enough goals against defensive sides (e.g. Spain v Russia).

Edited April 17, 2020 by Manutd1999

[DimitrisLar]

 

9 minutes ago, Manutd1999 said:

This is interesting, it's inspired me to do some tests for myself! Maybe something like this for the TIs, I'll see how it goes:

- Positive mentality
- Much shorter passing
- Much lower tempo
- WBIB
- Play out of defence
- Pass into space
- Be more expressive

"Conventional" wisdom on these forums would say that much lower tempo + much shorter passing is "tactical overkill" but I agree that this probably best describes how tiki-taka is actually played.

The key might be having good enough players with exceptional vision/passing ability to unlock defences. I doubt this would work with poor or even average sides. Think of the difference between Spain 2010 and Spain 2018. Both teams played a similar style, but without the once-in-a-generation midfield talents of Xavi/Iniesta et al. the 2018 side lacked the creativity to score enough goals against defensive sides (e.g. Spain v Russia).

 huh! its so nice someone says lets try this. i'm very happy with what my team is doing right now.  of course it needs very good players in the middle of the park and traits like dictate play, one two's and killer balls are a plus or maybe a must. that's an example of play 

fast passing in tight spaces, ball in space for the winger. also good finishing, composure and anticipation will do tons of good cause especially after a run of wins my players at least are just arriving in front of the enemy GK, run on him and then pass him the ball

[DimitrisLar]

16 passes, diamond to escape press, making a long pass to the roaming IF at the right (stay wider PI) 

Inter's exceptional defence broken down. i can upload all day long..

[DimitrisLar]

enemys defence is so narrow they don't even  spread at the line of the GK area. is it a parked bus, a defensive team or a sloppy defending? either way, defence broken. Gaya my dearest LB in the game for some time, came at 33 yo for free

 

 

[Trimisiyu]

On 17/04/2020 at 14:37, DimitrisLar said:

enemys defence is so narrow they don't even  spread at the line of the GK area. is it a parked bus, a defensive team or a sloppy defending? either way, defence broken. Gaya my dearest LB in the game for some time, came at 33 yo for free

 

 

The only reason I play FM is to watch the game played in a beautiful way - seems you must be enjoying the beauty of your team play - would you mind sharing a screenshot of the tactical structure and player instructions? 

 

[DimitrisLar]

3 hours ago, Trimisiyu said:

The only reason I play FM is to watch the game played in a beautiful way - seems you must be enjoying the beauty of your team play - would you mind sharing a screenshot of the tactical structure and player instructions? 

 

sure m8. here are the roles and TI's

as for PI's lets begin

WB(s): sit narrower, close down more, tackle harder

WB(a): stay wider, close down more, tackle harder

CB(c): pass it shorter, stay wider, take more risks

CB(d): pass it shorter, stay wider, take more risks

Dlp(s): close down more, tackle harder

Mezz(a): close down more, tackle harder, pass shorter

If(a): close down more, tackle harder, pass shorter, stay wider

If(s)  close down more, tackle harder, pass shorter, sit narrower, get further forward

F9: close down more, tackle harder, pass shorter

i have two sets of attackers, for my team and overall ppm's and movements, both IF must play on the same leg. If my IF's are right footed i play the system the way you see it here, if they are left footed i mirror the tactic so IF(a)  and Mez(a) are on the left and WB(a) is on the right.

If you try it tell me please if your mezzala scores more goals than mine. he gets tons of headers alone in the area but for some reason his conversion rate is so much low and its Savic, i mean the guy is 1.90,  composure 20, header 17, jump 17. In every game he sends headers to the GK. When i play mirrored i ve seen some goals, maybe its the foot of Savic and how he prepares for the jump? i cant tell, only assume :/

Edited April 18, 2020 by DimitrisLar

[DimitrisLar]

just played against napoli away. i got two goals and won, the first was with the tactic as showned before and the other is mirrored. i did that cause my OI's demanded my exploit IF(a) to defend, so i mirrored the tactic after 65 to make involving in the game more natural for my attacking line and of course i subbed my IF's with two left footed.

1st goal, right footed IF's

 

2nd goal left footed IF's

 

[Trimisiyu]

10 hours ago, DimitrisLar said:

sure m8. here are the roles and TI's

as for PI's lets begin

WB(s): sit narrower, close down more, tackle harder

WB(a): stay wider, close down more, tackle harder

CB(c): pass it shorter, stay wider, take more risks

CB(d): pass it shorter, stay wider, take more risks

Dlp(s): close down more, tackle harder

Mezz(a): close down more, tackle harder, pass shorter

If(a): close down more, tackle harder, pass shorter, stay wider

If(s)  close down more, tackle harder, pass shorter, sit narrower, get further forward

F9: close down more, tackle harder, pass shorter

i have two sets of attackers, for my team and overall ppm's and movements, both IF must play on the same leg. If my IF's are right footed i play the system the way you see it here, if they are left footed i mirror the tactic so IF(a)  and Mez(a) are on the left and WB(a) is on the right.

If you try it tell me please if your mezzala scores more goals than mine. he gets tons of headers alone in the area but for some reason his conversion rate is so much low and its Savic, i mean the guy is 1.90,  composure 20, header 17, jump 17. In every game he sends headers to the GK. When i play mirrored i ve seen some goals, maybe its the foot of Savic and how he prepares for the jump? i cant tell, only assume :/

Nice, I will give it a go and let you know the outcome. Cheers m8

[Trimisiyu]

On 19/04/2020 at 03:21, DimitrisLar said:

just played against napoli away. i got two goals and won, the first was with the tactic as showned before and the other is mirrored. i did that cause my OI's demanded my exploit IF(a) to defend, so i mirrored the tactic after 65 to make involving in the game more natural for my attacking line and of course i subbed my IF's with two left footed.

1st goal, right footed IF's

 

2nd goal left footed IF's

 

Hey m8, so I tested the tactic and it works nice - just as you laid out. Also, my mezzala got into goal scoring positions frequently but his finishing was also quite misplaced several times. Not sure why. the only thing i realised is that i got counter attacked through the middle quite often so i had to reduce the defensive width and also make one of the central backs (the one on the right) not stay wide during transition and consolidation of play. also, nice play interaction inside opponents box. the left centre back still has stay wide so when the you have the ball, the wing back goes and the centre back occupies that space and then the HB may drop back giving a nice flat 3 with space to pass and evade opponents' press. also i tried using the right back as inverted and when i did it gave me a nice midfield balance as well - i just like the inverted wing back as a preference sometimes.

the other reason i believe this tactic works well is that i believe to achieve very good passing game, you can only do it with PIs and not Tis - i realised Tis don't have as much effect especially when it comes to passing shorter. 

I had a similar tactic before however when i employed shorter passing with Tis, it worked much better. 

Good tactic! 

[DimitrisLar]

3 hours ago, Trimisiyu said:

Hey m8, so I tested the tactic and it works nice - just as you laid out. Also, my mezzala got into goal scoring positions frequently but his finishing was also quite misplaced several times. Not sure why. the only thing i realised is that i got counter attacked through the middle quite often so i had to reduce the defensive width and also make one of the central backs (the one on the right) not stay wide during transition and consolidation of play. also, nice play interaction inside opponents box. the left centre back still has stay wide so when the you have the ball, the wing back goes and the centre back occupies that space and then the HB may drop back giving a nice flat 3 with space to pass and evade opponents' press. also i tried using the right back as inverted and when i did it gave me a nice midfield balance as well - i just like the inverted wing back as a preference sometimes.

the other reason i believe this tactic works well is that i believe to achieve very good passing game, you can only do it with PIs and not Tis - i realised Tis don't have as much effect especially when it comes to passing shorter. 

I had a similar tactic before however when i employed shorter passing with Tis, it worked much better. 

Good tactic! 

i can't express my gratitude m8! thanks thanks thanks thanks! its not that i believe im good at tactics in FM, not at all. I just couldn't believe that what we saw with Pep's Barcelona everybody said that its high tempo that makes the passes work fast and smart. It was a so definite "no" , i even watched the Real-Barca 2-6 game again yesterday, even though i play this tactic for close to a week, and saying is this team a high tempo team? its not. Look at their touches on the ball, they might had 3-4 touches on the ball, they passed it quick only when Madrid had energy in the first half. I learned to upload videos on youtube just to not hear anyone saying that it can't be, i thought they wouldn't believe it works.

thanks also for the specific adjustements, i ll try those for sure (although i dislike the inverted wingback xD ). The mezzala phenomenon will be my focus from now on with the France squad cause there i can use players with, maybe, more aggresion, if its down to an attribute, or a CM(A) cause maybe he stops being so aggressive a little bit before his run, i dont know, only theories on my mind.

 Of course, i suppose, someone can play this style with different systems. I hope we see an other tactic with the same style appear someday.

What you note about PI's seemed strange to me from when i used to download plug n play tactics and ok some times we may need a split block so we use close down more to some players, even when a team does it from TI's. But it was strange for me too, why some tactics, like the one here, play good with pass shorter added for all players (excluding the DLP). 

you gave me such a joy m8!

Edited April 20, 2020 by Experienced Defender
inappropriate word

[Experienced Defender]

@DimitrisLar I edited out the last sentence in your most recent post, so please mind the language!

Thank you.

[DimitrisLar]

1 minute ago, Experienced Defender said:

@DimitrisLar I edited out the last sentence in your most recent post, so please mind the language!

Thank you.

sorry m8, you're right. what do you think of the tactic? 

[Experienced Defender]

6 minutes ago, DimitrisLar said:

what do you think of the tactic?

You say it works nicely for you, so my opinion is totally unimportant 

[DimitrisLar]

6 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

You say it works nicely for you, so my opinion is totally unimportant 

nuh, thats a lie. this tactic is moved in an other direction sure, but its based on a tactic which was fixed based on your very helpful advices. It was on an other topic but if you didnt say, i would still be with mark tighter on 8 players on the pitch and many other instructions xD

of course i respect that you dont say your opinion on winning/working tactics, i ve seen some posts of yours to other topics. When i finally have some achievements (hopefully the world cup with france and a champions league) i ll create a topic just for this tactic. I hope you have a say there.

Cheers!

[Trimisiyu]

9 hours ago, DimitrisLar said:

i can't express my gratitude m8! thanks thanks thanks thanks! its not that i believe im good at tactics in FM, not at all. I just couldn't believe that what we saw with Pep's Barcelona everybody said that its high tempo that makes the passes work fast and smart. It was a so definite "no" , i even watched the Real-Barca 2-6 game again yesterday, even though i play this tactic for close to a week, and saying is this team a high tempo team? its not. Look at their touches on the ball, they might had 3-4 touches on the ball, they passed it quick only when Madrid had energy in the first half. I learned to upload videos on youtube just to not hear anyone saying that it can't be, i thought they wouldn't believe it works.

thanks also for the specific adjustements, i ll try those for sure (although i dislike the inverted wingback xD ). The mezzala phenomenon will be my focus from now on with the France squad cause there i can use players with, maybe, more aggresion, if its down to an attribute, or a CM(A) cause maybe he stops being so aggressive a little bit before his run, i dont know, only theories on my mind.

 Of course, i suppose, someone can play this style with different systems. I hope we see an other tactic with the same style appear someday.

What you note about PI's seemed strange to me from when i used to download plug n play tactics and ok some times we may need a split block so we use close down more to some players, even when a team does it from TI's. But it was strange for me too, why some tactics, like the one here, play good with pass shorter added for all players (excluding the DLP). 

you gave me such a joy m8!

Pleasure 

Yea, with your comment about tempo on FM - to be honest, I think it is something the game has not really nailed on very well. Your point about tempo is very valid from my point of view. When i use high tempo, i tend to see more long passes as well because i think players hurry to pass the ball and at a higher tempo, they just hoof the ball or play it where they like. however when you use low tempo, i believe what it is telling the players is to prioritise possession - remember in the older FMs like fm16 and fm15 - there was a TI called retain possession or something like that - i think this is the same as low tempo in fm19 and fm20 - the developers have just tweaked it. so in summary, low tempo is the way forward on fm20 to keep possession. also, if you read the instruction of the low tempo - it says "...taking their time with the ball and often retaining possession in order to persevere control of the game." this loosely translates to retain possession. of course, some argue that too much of a low tempo cannot unlock defence - well, i think this is not case. with low tempo and a creative team, you will split defences as much as any team - just like the barca team of 2011 - when you watch them, the pace of their play slows down during build up but once they reach the final 3rd, they split the defence into bits - there is a patient pattern in their play that enables them shift the other team around and create overloads which frees up their attackers (David Villa and Pedro and also an overlapping Dani Alves). 

with regards to inverted wing backs, i only use them because i am more of a defensive player than my team reflects because i try always all the time to prevent counter attacks and also to overload midfield. sometimes i do use the traditional wing backs in case i am facing a different type of team especially when i really need goals if i am down by more than 2 goals. 

another thing, i tried using a poacher if i am dominating a smaller reputation side - i discovered that the poacher is able to pin down the defenders in the box and also gets a lot of tap ins. you can try this idea if you find a stubborn defence.

cheers m8

[DimitrisLar]

1 hour ago, Trimisiyu said:

Pleasure 

Yea, with your comment about tempo on FM - to be honest, I think it is something the game has not really nailed on very well. Your point about tempo is very valid from my point of view. When i use high tempo, i tend to see more long passes as well because i think players hurry to pass the ball and at a higher tempo, they just hoof the ball or play it where they like. however when you use low tempo, i believe what it is telling the players is to prioritise possession - remember in the older FMs like fm16 and fm15 - there was a TI called retain possession or something like that - i think this is the same as low tempo in fm19 and fm20 - the developers have just tweaked it. so in summary, low tempo is the way forward on fm20 to keep possession. also, if you read the instruction of the low tempo - it says "...taking their time with the ball and often retaining possession in order to persevere control of the game." this loosely translates to retain possession. of course, some argue that too much of a low tempo cannot unlock defence - well, i think this is not case. with low tempo and a creative team, you will split defences as much as any team - just like the barca team of 2011 - when you watch them, the pace of their play slows down during build up but once they reach the final 3rd, they split the defence into bits - there is a patient pattern in their play that enables them shift the other team around and create overloads which frees up their attackers (David Villa and Pedro and also an overlapping Dani Alves). 

with regards to inverted wing backs, i only use them because i am more of a defensive player than my team reflects because i try always all the time to prevent counter attacks and also to overload midfield. sometimes i do use the traditional wing backs in case i am facing a different type of team especially when i really need goals if i am down by more than 2 goals. 

another thing, i tried using a poacher if i am dominating a smaller reputation side - i discovered that the poacher is able to pin down the defenders in the box and also gets a lot of tap ins. you can try this idea if you find a stubborn defence.

cheers m8

your description of Barca's play is exactly what we saw all these years. Its an FM obssesion thing to see a high tempo team in these wonderfull passes every Pep's team played. Liverpool yes, but barca no. Its like the bet obsession that made some people say that portugal won the euros with only draws. They saw only the result in their bet for the 90 minutes as an explanation of how they got there. Kinda fun but akward too. 

I used your poacher suggestion, in a game right now, against Lecce. It worked wonders, he got 2 goals. I thought that he would pull defenders higher and if we'd be in a position to cross then the enemy would be in a better position cause before with the f9/If(s)/mez(a) comb i dragged their defence a little high, bursted from a flank, make them aggressively defend the space between them and their gk and left unmarked the mezzala and If(s) for a cutback shot or header. On the other hand i used a poacher or cf(s) against good teams and switched my If(s) to a trequatista to switch the focus of play to slightly wider position cause they got their wingbacks so high up.

hope we find more and more! have a nice day!

 

[Damian_Rusling]

I had a good first season with Torino (4th) using my own 4-2-3-1 tactic. Second season down in 8th so switched to this tactic in December.  It works !!!! Dominating possession, keeping clean sheets and winning 1-0 or 2-0 most games.  Does well against bigger teams too e.g draw away to Juve and home wins over AC Milan and Lazio.  The high line makes me vulnerable to the long ball over the top but so far a combination of poor finishing and good goalkeeping has prevented teams taking advantage.  i dont think its the best formation to watch as sometimes build up play can be slow. However when it works it leads to great interplay and some beautiful goals. Will persevere and tweak slightly and see how I get on.

[DimitrisLar]

10 hours ago, Damian_Rusling said:

I had a good first season with Torino (4th) using my own 4-2-3-1 tactic. Second season down in 8th so switched to this tactic in December.  It works !!!! Dominating possession, keeping clean sheets and winning 1-0 or 2-0 most games.  Does well against bigger teams too e.g draw away to Juve and home wins over AC Milan and Lazio.  The high line makes me vulnerable to the long ball over the top but so far a combination of poor finishing and good goalkeeping has prevented teams taking advantage.  i dont think its the best formation to watch as sometimes build up play can be slow. However when it works it leads to great interplay and some beautiful goals. Will persevere and tweak slightly and see how I get on.

would you ever think this could work m8? huh! Thanks for testing this mad "overkil" idea. 

From my experience with the French national team, aside from a tactical problem by the oppositions structure, i can only think that difficulties in building up come from low off the ball movements, or other required attributes, and from low commitment from the players (overconfidence). As you can see from Trimisiyu comments, some changes to roles, depending on the situation, can help unblock the team in certain difficulties. Some times the opposite team builts up from the IF(a) area so mirroring the tactic helps a lot, but that in my save at least, could happen only in second half, after the substitutes, cause i didnt have so versatile players. My f9 and IF(s) had 13,14 acceleration, they couldn;t work the flank in the IF(a) role.

The high line issue! No wondering why Sweeper Keepers must have good one vs one attributes  My biggest problem was conceding about 5-7 goals from wrong passes by the left Wb or Cd(d) straight to the opponents. But that happened even when i used a more balanced tactic. Its down to composure and other attributes. I had Aaron Martin from sevilla there when i had Gladbach and he escaped these situations with Tries to get out of trouble and his good dribbling made some good plays that didn;t happen before.

Hope to see more from you. Any comment or idea is welcome!

[Damian_Rusling]

The tactic is still working well. 10 game unbeaten run including away wins v Roma and Inter. Up to third in the league and only 3 points behind Juve. Also through to the cup final. My main tweaks are my striker is advanced forward attack and  my central midfield playmaker is set to advanced playmaker support. These changes were made as they suit the players (Belotti and Majer)more. I also have play for set pieces selected as I get a lot of goals from indirect free kicks. How important is it that the other central midfielder is set to mezzala.? Would box to box work in this position ?

Edited April 22, 2020 by Damian_Rusling

[DimitrisLar]

7 minutes ago, Damian_Rusling said:

The tactic is still working well. 10 game unbeaten run including away wins v Roma and Inter. Up to third in the league and only 3 points behind Juve. Also through to the cup final. My main tweaks are my striker is advanced forward attack and  my central midfield playmaker is set to advanced playmaker support. These changes were made as they suit the players (Belotti and Majer)more. I also have play for set pieces selected as I get a lot of goals from indirect free kicks. How important is it that the other central midfielder is set to mezzala.? Would box to box work in this position ?

Like cruyff said, if i have van basten then why not play him more forward? Belloti is real quality! Why not CF(a), he does it all. Hope you reach more games unbeaten, my run was 26. 

About set pieces, doesnt it disrupt your play? I win a lot of set pieces with this tactic so i didnt mind.

Mezzala, speaking about the built up process, is there so he can stretch the middle a little bit and offer a central passing option to right flank. I suppose that because a BBM is also a runner, he wont change the runner-receiver balance on that flank, but if his movements seem to help you then why not. I wouldn't change a player of the kind of iniesta from a Mezzala role but a Vidal maybe yes, even though i had succes with Milinkovic-Savic there. I was about to test this particular role but my France team has a game in 1 month. 

[zyfon5]

6 minutes ago, DimitrisLar said:

Mezzala, speaking about the built up process, is there so he can stretch the middle a little bit and offer a central passing option to right flank. I suppose that because a BBM is also a runner, he wont change the runner-receiver balance on that flank, but if his movements seem to help you then why not. I wouldn't change a player of the kind of iniesta from a Mezzala role but a Vidal maybe yes, even though i had succes with Milinkovic-Savic there. I was about to test this particular role but my France team has a game in 1 month. 

mezzala is described in the game as a half winger. a mezzala can be useful for teams that look to dominate possession as he will always occupy the half spaces and help to create side overloads. he is not a deep runner like box to box midfielder but will look to attack the box if there is space ahead of him in the half space. in a midfield 3, during the build up phase, he can drop back from more advanced position to receive the ball and look to make a pass from the half space.

[Alfie31796]

So I've implemented this tactic, done very well. Promoted via the playoffs with Millwall. Karamoko Dembele and Angel Gomes (Loan) the standouts. My only real attacking issue is the Striker role, I was using a F9 but I just feel like he doesn't do enough but the quality of my F9 wasn't exactly extraordinary (Tom Bradshaw), so I'm in a bit of a dilemma  and as I've been promoted I'm half tempted to either loan Troy Parrott in or go and find another CF(A) and give it a go. 

I absolutely love clean sheets and this tactic is fantastic for doing just that. 

On that subject, how do you defend set pieces? In particular, IFK's? I concede SO MANY. I can't decide if it's just the AI being ridiculously overpowered from these situations or the default setup being awful. 

[DimitrisLar]

2 hours ago, zyfon5 said:

mezzala is described in the game as a half winger. a mezzala can be useful for teams that look to dominate possession as he will always occupy the half spaces and help to create side overloads. he is not a deep runner like box to box midfielder but will look to attack the box if there is space ahead of him in the half space. in a midfield 3, during the build up phase, he can drop back from more advanced position to receive the ball and look to make a pass from the half space.

you're right. I mixed up the descriptions from this guide where mezzala is described as dribbler, passes and sprinter, although bbm is nothing like that. Of course he makes runs and he receives.

1 hour ago, Alfie31796 said:

So I've implemented this tactic, done very well. Promoted via the playoffs with Millwall. Karamoko Dembele and Angel Gomes (Loan) the standouts. My only real attacking issue is the Striker role, I was using a F9 but I just feel like he doesn't do enough but the quality of my F9 wasn't exactly extraordinary (Tom Bradshaw), so I'm in a bit of a dilemma  and as I've been promoted I'm half tempted to either loan Troy Parrott in or go and find another CF(A) and give it a go. 

I absolutely love clean sheets and this tactic is fantastic for doing just that. 

On that subject, how do you defend set pieces? In particular, IFK's? I concede SO MANY. I can't decide if it's just the AI being ridiculously overpowered from these situations or the default setup being awful. 

to speak the truth f9 (and If(s)) mostly play an easy option for 1-2's and opening up space for the Mez(a). Of course he scores but with the players i had until now their job was that. 

about IFK i can't help you, as haven't put emphasys on defending free kicks, only corner kicks where i got 2 players in the posts, 5 in a row with my 2 tallest in the 2nd and 4th position between them, 1 outside the area and 2 up front. I think the AI isn't broken, its just that usually teams dont practice on defending set pieces a lot. I got 3 routines for corners and 2 in IFK (deep&wide). 

 

 

[DimitrisLar]

2 hours ago, Alfie31796 said:

On that subject, how do you defend set pieces? 

speaking of the devil http://www.fmrensie.net/2020/04/21/fm20-conceding-from-the-set-pieces/

watch out for what you wish m8!

[Damian_Rusling]

This is getting quite incredible now... i have went on a incredible run and my rivals are dropping points left, right and centre.  Got the cup final next game and then 2 league games left with me having a 1 point lead.....  I have been offered the AC Milan job (who are looking like finishing 10th) and will be leaving Torino at the end of this season no matter what happens.  Restoring Milan to glory will be my next challenge...

Edited April 22, 2020 by Damian_Rusling

[Alfie31796]

2 hours ago, DimitrisLar said:

speaking of the devil http://www.fmrensie.net/2020/04/21/fm20-conceding-from-the-set-pieces/

watch out for what you wish m8!

Perfect, thrown in the routines on defending and it seems to be working quite well. My team is incredibly small though besides my CB's and my DM so in the next few transfer windows I'll be looking to add a bit more height across the board. 

[DimitrisLar]

4 hours ago, Damian_Rusling said:

This is getting quite incredible now... i have went on a incredible run and my rivals are dropping points left, right and centre.  Got the cup final next game and then 2 league games left with me having a 1 point lead.....  I have been offered the AC Milan job (who are looking like finishing 10th) and will be leaving Torino at the end of this season no matter what happens.  Restoring Milan to glory will be my next challenge...

happy for you man. Just watch out the team cause i went to Monaco and i'm full of technical players with 12 teamwork and it isn't looking good atm.

[Alfie31796]

Tactic severely slowed down for me so had to make some changes, removed a lot of the tactical instructions as it felt too restrictive. Playing much, much better now whilst still retaining ~60% possession. 

[DimitrisLar]

5 hours ago, Alfie31796 said:

Tactic severely slowed down for me so had to make some changes, removed a lot of the tactical instructions as it felt too restrictive. Playing much, much better now whilst still retaining ~60% possession. 

i'm in the same direction too cause Monaco plays suck. I cant blame the tactic though cause my France team is destroying every team on their path. Nevertheless i recently switched the f9 to dlp, cause teamwork is low on the team and somehow i got to make them approach their play in a different manner. Also HB to Dlp(d) and Dlp(s) to Carrilelo and both IF to (s) and stay wider. It worked against a minnow, won 5-1.

What i like the most in this role structure is the chances created for different players. WB(a) can score a screamer, Mez(a) headers and long shots, Dlp(s) screamers from outside, IF(a) solo goals, headers, 1v1 via combination play, IF(s) & F9 headers and shots inside the area. 

I'd like to hear your altered instructions.

[Alfie31796]

3 hours ago, DimitrisLar said:

i'm in the same direction too cause Monaco plays suck. I cant blame the tactic though cause my France team is destroying every team on their path. Nevertheless i recently switched the f9 to dlp, cause teamwork is low on the team and somehow i got to make them approach their play in a different manner. Also HB to Dlp(d) and Dlp(s) to Carrilelo and both IF to (s) and stay wider. It worked against a minnow, won 5-1.

What i like the most in this role structure is the chances created for different players. WB(a) can score a screamer, Mez(a) headers and long shots, Dlp(s) screamers from outside, IF(a) solo goals, headers, 1v1 via combination play, IF(s) & F9 headers and shots inside the area. 

I'd like to hear your altered instructions.

I switched it up a little in terms of player roles because the balance kind of felt a little bit off to me.

 

CF(A)

IW(S)--------------------IW(A)

MEZ(A) BBM(S)

DLP(D)

WB(A) BPD(D) BPD(D) WB(A)

SK(S)

 

Positve

 

In Possession: Much Shorter Passing - Pass Into Space - Play Out Of Defence - Dribble Less - Lower Tempo - Fairly Narrow

In Transition: Counter Press

Out Of Possession: Defend Wider - Higher Defensive Line - Much Higher Line Of Engagement

 

CF(A)- Pass It Shorter, Close Down More, Tackle Harder

IW(S) - Pass It Shorter, Get Further Forward, Stay Wider, Close Down More, Tackle Harder

IW(A) - Pass It Shorter, Sit Narrower, Close Down More, Tackle Harder

MEZ(A) - Pass It Shorter, Close Down More, Tackle Harder

BBM(S) - Pass It Shorter, Move Into Channels

DLP(D) - Close Down More, Tackle Harder

LWB(A) - Sit Narrower, Close Down More, Tackle Harder

BPD(D) - Pass It Shorter, Stay Wider

RWB(A) - Stay Wider, Close Down More, Tackle Harder

 

Interestingly enough I've been performing MUCH better now I've got Rayan Cherki on the left wing, who has 'Comes Deep To Get Ball' as a PPM so perhaps remove 'Get Further Forward' on the IW(S). The most important players are the wingers, the DLP and the wingbacks. The DLP HAS to have 'Dictates Tempo' as a PPM in my opinion, and preferably nothing else. I've also got a right footer as a MEZ and a left footer as a BBM because I feel like a lot of the play occurs with their backs to goal, ping it back to the DLP and he sprays it out either to the wingbacks overlapping or to the wingers who just dribble through everyone. Having excellent dribblers on the wings is also vital, I have Rayan Cherki and Karamoko Dembele who seem to just glide through players and ride a ridiculous amount of rough tackles.

Just narrowly missed out on EL via the Premier League but I did win the FA Cup so I qualified anyway. Very pleased with this tactic. I'd also say defending set pieces has been key too, I score an awful lot from countering on set pieces and again it's usually through Cherki or Dembele just breezing through. I've used one of the Training Guides on here, can't remember which but the one that basically says get a tonne of fitness coaches and don't set individual role training, and massively boosted the attributes that help my players do what is needed of them. 

The wingers should have good Dribbling, First Touch, Technique, Bravery, Flair, Acceleration, Agility and Pace. 

I also believe having as many players as possible with 'Plays One Twos' and 'Likes Ball Played Into Feet' - besides the wing backs - would be beneficial to this tactic. Both of my rotational options for CF(A) have 'Plays With Back To Goal' too and I believe this is also key. 

[Damian_Rusling]

Interesting last month to my Torino save... I lost 3 of my best players to injury -  GK, Midfield playmaker and Right IF.  3 of my best players....  Lost the cup final to Inter in ET.  Final 2 games of the season I needed 1 win to clinch the title from Juve.  Second last game drew 1-1 at home to Atalanta... Last game away to Udinese.  3-1 victory seen the title come to Torino !!!! 

Took the AC Milan job and 5 games into the season I am second in the league and playing some great football.  Totally overhauled the squad with buying and selling so hopeful of a good season,

 

[DimitrisLar]

6 hours ago, Alfie31796 said:

I switched it up a little in terms of player roles because the balance kind of felt a little bit off to me.

 

CF(A)

IW(S)--------------------IW(A)

MEZ(A) BBM(S)

DLP(D)

WB(A) BPD(D) BPD(D) WB(A)

SK(S)

 

Positve

 

In Possession: Much Shorter Passing - Pass Into Space - Play Out Of Defence - Dribble Less - Lower Tempo - Fairly Narrow

In Transition: Counter Press

Out Of Possession: Defend Wider - Higher Defensive Line - Much Higher Line Of Engagement

 

CF(A)- Pass It Shorter, Close Down More, Tackle Harder

IW(S) - Pass It Shorter, Get Further Forward, Stay Wider, Close Down More, Tackle Harder

IW(A) - Pass It Shorter, Sit Narrower, Close Down More, Tackle Harder

MEZ(A) - Pass It Shorter, Close Down More, Tackle Harder

BBM(S) - Pass It Shorter, Move Into Channels

DLP(D) - Close Down More, Tackle Harder

LWB(A) - Sit Narrower, Close Down More, Tackle Harder

BPD(D) - Pass It Shorter, Stay Wider

RWB(A) - Stay Wider, Close Down More, Tackle Harder

 

Interestingly enough I've been performing MUCH better now I've got Rayan Cherki on the left wing, who has 'Comes Deep To Get Ball' as a PPM so perhaps remove 'Get Further Forward' on the IW(S). The most important players are the wingers, the DLP and the wingbacks. The DLP HAS to have 'Dictates Tempo' as a PPM in my opinion, and preferably nothing else. I've also got a right footer as a MEZ and a left footer as a BBM because I feel like a lot of the play occurs with their backs to goal, ping it back to the DLP and he sprays it out either to the wingbacks overlapping or to the wingers who just dribble through everyone. Having excellent dribblers on the wings is also vital, I have Rayan Cherki and Karamoko Dembele who seem to just glide through players and ride a ridiculous amount of rough tackles.

Just narrowly missed out on EL via the Premier League but I did win the FA Cup so I qualified anyway. Very pleased with this tactic. I'd also say defending set pieces has been key too, I score an awful lot from countering on set pieces and again it's usually through Cherki or Dembele just breezing through. I've used one of the Training Guides on here, can't remember which but the one that basically says get a tonne of fitness coaches and don't set individual role training, and massively boosted the attributes that help my players do what is needed of them. 

The wingers should have good Dribbling, First Touch, Technique, Bravery, Flair, Acceleration, Agility and Pace. 

I also believe having as many players as possible with 'Plays One Twos' and 'Likes Ball Played Into Feet' - besides the wing backs - would be beneficial to this tactic. Both of my rotational options for CF(A) have 'Plays With Back To Goal' too and I believe this is also key. 

 

i've tried your tactic but it seems the Monaco players want back their high tempo style. Unfortunately this is gonna take some time or end really bad.

2 hours ago, Damian_Rusling said:

Interesting last month to my Torino save... I lost 3 of my best players to injury -  GK, Midfield playmaker and Right IF.  3 of my best players....  Lost the cup final to Inter in ET.  Final 2 games of the season I needed 1 win to clinch the title from Juve.  Second last game drew 1-1 at home to Atalanta... Last game away to Udinese.  3-1 victory seen the title come to Torino !!!! 

Took the AC Milan job and 5 games into the season I am second in the league and playing some great football.  Totally overhauled the squad with buying and selling so hopeful of a good season,

 

Glad to hear      How many points did you get? Serie A seemed difficult cause it needs, in my save, over 85 points to be won. Every year one team wins it and the others are 15-20 points away. I had Pep's Milan behind me with 2(?) points difference.

Does anybody know how to replicate this 

 

[Damian_Rusling]

I must of got lucky then as the final points total was

Torino 79

Juve 76

Roma 74

Inter 73

i only switched to the tactic in December so I am sure I would have got more points if I played a full season. I am playing the next season as Milan so hopefully I will at least match that points total.

 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2020 by Damian_Rusling

[DimitrisLar]

|I just thought about posting a new adaption of the previous tactic. Since i went in Monaco, having a very bad 3 months there, with players who would take 2 years to get rid of some traits and a lot of reading on the internet looking for ways to play, i decided to go back to Lazio and make a young squad and test an other version of the tactic. 

Savic and Kovacic, my two best players released, i bought only players under 23, except a loan Luis Felipe DC. Now the tactic looks like that 

Work ball into box and dribble less are gone.

Much shorter passes and much slower tempo switched with shorter and slower.

Offside is on as i dont use a cover cause of better reinforced defence.

The way we reach at the box is almost the same, it is more direct only if the enemy leaves us a lot of space. Technical ability this year is less so i dont expect any fancy playing. BPDs help a lot and they dont seem to make akward long balls even under pressure. F9 switched to the AMC strata as you see for a T(a). I was thinking of a SS(a) like the one used in this article of Ö-zil to the Arsenal! as other ideas were inspired or copied from there. Took off each and every close down more and tackle harder except from WBs. 

We maintain a good control in the centre of the field as expected, use the flanks a lot in the final third only and its very early to say too much. At least we gave a very good game against Juventus at home which could be won if i had a substitute with a better finishing for the IF(a), as he got on 4 1v1s as he run alone after we got De Light tired.