Why is my star player my worst player?

[laurentius82]

Meet Tanguy Thebault. He has, at least to my eye, wonderful attributes to play almost any attacking role, and should be a real star in my team. Except that he's not. 90% of he is just completely invisible, only showing up sometimes to miss a chance. He's ratings are usually around 6.2-6.5. I use him mainly as an IF(A) on the left in a 4-1-2-3, and sometimes as the lone striker as a F9. As IF(A) he has a sit narrower PI switched on as well as a close down more PI in both roles as part of a split block (including front 3 + Mez(A)/CM(A)). What on Earth is wrong? You see in the screenshot that in the last 5 games he has 3 goals, which doesn't sound bad at all, but those all came in a single match where he managed to score a tap-in, a penalty and free kick, being otherwise invisible as usual. The only upside of his poor performances is that his work rate attribute has been getting nice boosts when I discipline him his wages after sub-par displays. =D

Generally as a team we are not doing that badly (especially defensively), although we often struggle to break down defenses, ending up with a lot of 0-0 or 1-0 victories with a set piece goal or so. So any general ideas on how to get more oomph attacking-vise would be well received! The quality of our players in general is still slightly below ManU, ManC,  Arsenal and Liverpool, but pretty similar to Chelsea or Tottenham. If you want see profiles of any of the other players (most are newgens) just let me know. 

[J8mb0]

He's quality! 

[laurentius82]

In our most recent game against Leeds I tried him as a PF(A), with dribble more and roam more PI's added, and he actually had a good game, scoring twice and generally looking sharp. My thinking was to to put his high work rate and aggression into some use...

[summatsupeer]

Attributes are just one part, look at his report which thankfully your skin has on that page!  He's inconsistent and doesn't like big matches.

Tactic wise its not bad, right flank is a bit open with FB-At, MEZ-At and IW-Su but that shouldn't make the AML play worse unless the ball just always ends up going to that overloaded flank?

Edit: Might be worth using higher LOE so front 3 are more active and/or Counter Press to try and buy time for those FBs to get back.  Attack wise might want a more static ST for everyone to pivot around like F9 or DLF-Su?

Edited April 14, 2020 by summatsupeer

[laurentius82]

1 hour ago, summatsupeer said:

Attributes are just one part, look at his report which thankfully your skin has on that page!  He's inconsistent and doesn't like big matches.

Tactic wise its not bad, right flank is a bit open with FB-At, MEZ-At and IW-Su but that shouldn't make the AML play worse unless the ball just always ends up going to that overloaded flank?

Edit: Might be worth using higher LOE so front 3 are more active and/or Counter Press to try and buy time for those FBs to get back.  Attack wise might want a more static ST for everyone to pivot around like F9 or DLF-Su?

Thanks for your thoughts. Actually he's been quite consistent despite that characteristic, just not in a good way... btw, do you know if characteristics like inconsistency or fear of big matches can change as players gain experience? (I don't think I've ever noticed it happening)

The idea with the right flank has been precisely to overload it to create space for Thebault on the left and the striker. I agree that it's a bit risky, and I often tone down the mentality of the RB against tougher opponents. In any case, defensive vulnerability has not really been the issue for us like offensive impotence has. If I see that the IF(A) is getting too isolated during matches I sometimes try to change things by flipping my midfield so that the Mezzala is on left side with a support duty, paired with a CM(A) on the right, a DLP(S) in the DM position and a W(S) on right wing. Doesn't seem to affect Thebault's performances much. 

Both higher LOE and counter press are something we do as tweaks during matches quite often if it seems that we're allowing opposition to keep too much possession at the back with a defensive mentality. 

As for the striker role, it's something that I haven't been able to really settle on. Like I said, when I play Thebault as a striker, I play him as a F9, and depending on who plays I've experimented with DLF(S)/(A) as well, but have so far found the CF role with either mentality to be most effective. 

 

 

[Justified]

Do you think maybe the Sit Narrow coupled with the passive WB might be the issue? I think the defence don't worry about the WB so much as he is a later runner so they can focus solely on Thebault. Or is Temalio stealing his space due to the free role? It's difficult without seeing your matches. Short passing in general does keep players closer together so you might not need it. I don't think your right flank is bad, I wouldn't overlap though as you already have a FB on attack. If you want an overlap you could swap roles of the Fullbacks. Have the left one on FBat and the right on WBsu. You might actually see a big difference.

[summatsupeer]

1 hour ago, laurentius82 said:

Thanks for your thoughts. Actually he's been quite consistent despite that characteristic, just not in a good way... btw, do you know if characteristics like inconsistency or fear of big matches can change as players gain experience? (I don't think I've ever noticed it happening)

Not that I place a big emphasis on familiarity but if your moving him around, changing roles & duties all the time that won't help him have a good game when he's already inconsistent unless that change make a massive difference against that opponent.

I think consistency and big match can change over time if they perform well but it won't be a massive change, would take years to get just a couple of points I think.

1 hour ago, laurentius82 said:

The idea with the right flank has been precisely to overload it to create space for Thebault on the left and the striker. I agree that it's a bit risky, and I often tone down the mentality of the RB against tougher opponents. In any case, defensive vulnerability has not really been the issue for us like offensive impotence has.

I don't think you need to use an overload to create space for players on the other flank.  Switches of play tend don't tend to be in the opponents final third, where your 3 right sided players will typically be.  Switches of play tend to be more in the middle third with deeper/central players collecting from the right wing and then either playing a direct cross field ball or playing simple lateral pass for DM/MCL to play down the line for the DL/AML.  If anything your more likely to get Left to Right switches due to DLP-Su + WB-Su on left whilst your whole right side is pushed up + wide.

1 hour ago, laurentius82 said:

If I see that the IF(A) is getting too isolated during matches I sometimes try to change things by flipping my midfield so that the Mezzala is on left side with a support duty, paired with a CM(A) on the right, a DLP(S) in the DM position and a W(S) on right wing. Doesn't seem to affect Thebault's performances much. 

With his quickness, agility and dribbling ability, i'd want to isolate the IF-At, ideally in a 1v1 against there FB.  I'd remove the Sit Narrower and let him start wider and attack into space.  I think putting more players near him will just add more defenders/midfielders near to him.

I prefer the CM-At in 4141 DM Wides compared to MEZ-At so stays more central (Move Into Channel at most), especially with a support duty forward.  Don't really need a "central winger" moving wide when got FB/WB and IF/IW/W.

1 hour ago, laurentius82 said:

Both higher LOE and counter press are something we do as tweaks during matches quite often if it seems that we're allowing opposition to keep too much possession at the back with a defensive mentality. 

As for the striker role, it's something that I haven't been able to really settle on. Like I said, when I play Thebault as a striker, I play him as a F9, and depending on who plays I've experimented with DLF(S)/(A) as well, but have so far found the CF role with either mentality to be most effective. 

Changing who plays where and the roles/duties won't help you analyse the players performance, if anything might just add more questions, was the change right or is the player the issue?  And will hurt familiarity although thats a very small effect in the grand scheme of things. 

I think he's better as a wide player in your system.  Once he gets the ball and starts running at defences, have a look what other players are doing, are they getting in the way or giving him an option?  If he has options and just make bad choices or plays worse than his attributes appear, he's probably having a bad day.

[Experienced Defender]

7 hours ago, laurentius82 said:

1. Remove the overlap right and add the overlap left instead;

2. Change the CF into either a DLF on support duty or F9 

3. Change the right back from FB on attack duty into an IWB on support or WB on support 

[laurentius82]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

1. Remove the overlap right and add the overlap left instead;

2. Change the CF into either a DLF on support duty or F9 

3. Change the right back from FB on attack duty into an IWB on support or WB on support 

Thanks. I'd be interested to hear your thinking behind 1. and 3. especially. Isn't there a natural overlap on the left side already? IWB(S) on the right side makes sense I guess, providing support in midfield with the Mezzala going wide, but why would WB(S) be better than FB(A)?  Slightly lower mentality to provide better cover on the flank? 

[laurentius82]

2 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

Not that I place a big emphasis on familiarity but if your moving him around, changing roles & duties all the time that won't help him have a good game when he's already inconsistent unless that change make a massive difference against that opponent.

I think consistency and big match can change over time if they perform well but it won't be a massive change, would take years to get just a couple of points I think.

I don't think you need to use an overload to create space for players on the other flank.  Switches of play tend don't tend to be in the opponents final third, where your 3 right sided players will typically be.  Switches of play tend to be more in the middle third with deeper/central players collecting from the right wing and then either playing a direct cross field ball or playing simple lateral pass for DM/MCL to play down the line for the DL/AML.  If anything your more likely to get Left to Right switches due to DLP-Su + WB-Su on left whilst your whole right side is pushed up + wide.

With his quickness, agility and dribbling ability, i'd want to isolate the IF-At, ideally in a 1v1 against there FB.  I'd remove the Sit Narrower and let him start wider and attack into space.  I think putting more players near him will just add more defenders/midfielders near to him.

I prefer the CM-At in 4141 DM Wides compared to MEZ-At so stays more central (Move Into Channel at most), especially with a support duty forward.  Don't really need a "central winger" moving wide when got FB/WB and IF/IW/W.

Changing who plays where and the roles/duties won't help you analyse the players performance, if anything might just add more questions, was the change right or is the player the issue?  And will hurt familiarity although thats a very small effect in the grand scheme of things. 

I think he's better as a wide player in your system.  Once he gets the ball and starts running at defences, have a look what other players are doing, are they getting in the way or giving him an option?  If he has options and just make bad choices or plays worse than his attributes appear, he's probably having a bad day.

You make good points, definitely stuff for thought there.  I might have given the impression that I'm changing my tactic around all the time like Claudio Ranieri at his most whimsical. That's not really the case, I was talking about different tweaks and changes over 4-5 seasons...

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, laurentius82 said:

I'd be interested to hear your thinking behind 1. and 3. especially. Isn't there a natural overlap on the left side already?

You actually had a natural overlap on the right with FB on attack and IW on support, But even without the overlap right instruction, your setup on the right flank was problematic because you had a mezzala and attacking fullback at the same time, so defensive risk was quite obvious. 

As for the left flank, you are right that a WB on support should occasionally (naturally) overlap the IF on attack, but the Overlap left instruction would still make more sense than overlap right for 2 reasons:

1. an overlap/underlap instruction slightly increases the mentality of the related FB/WB and slightly decreases that of the wide forward, thus leading to more dynamic interplay between them in attack

2. you have a holding CM on the left side (DLP), which also makes that flank better protected defensively 

1 hour ago, laurentius82 said:

IWB(S) on the right side makes sense I guess, providing support in midfield with the Mezzala going wide

Not just because of the mezzala going wide - mezzala will move in different directions, not just wide - but also as defensive cover for the attack-minded mezzala, plus helping the midfield keep and recycle possession more effectively. However, you need to keep in mind that IWB is a more demanding role than WB and (especially) FB, so make sure your player has the right set of attributes. Otherwise, you better do not play him as an IWB. 

 

1 hour ago, laurentius82 said:

but why would WB(S) be better than FB(A)?  Slightly lower mentality to provide better cover on the flank? 

Yes, primarily because of the lower individual mentality, but also in order to help provide attacking width in the final third when the IW moves inside. That's why WB on support in this particular setup might be a better choice than IWB. 

[laurentius82]

Thanks again @Justified, @summatsupeer and @Experienced Defender for your ideas. I took your advice and changed the striker to F9, RB to a WB(S), switched the overlap from right to left, and removed the sit narrower PI from Thebault. Played a few matches to test it out. I think the modifications made us even more solid defensively, but unfortunately at the cost of being even more toothless in attack. Three 0-0's out of 5. Of course, we were playing both Tottenham and Man City there so not easy games by any standard, and we did put up a solid display home against Brighton.  Also the Champions league game at RB Salzburg was our complete domination, but we wasted a lot of chances and they equalized with pretty much their only shot of the game...

 

[summatsupeer]

11 minutes ago, laurentius82 said:

Thanks again @Justified, @summatsupeer and @Experienced Defender for your ideas. I took your advice and changed the striker to F9, RB to a WB(S), switched the overlap from right to left, and removed the sit narrower PI from Thebault. Played a few matches to test it out. I think the modifications made us even more solid defensively, but unfortunately at the cost of being even more toothless in attack. Three 0-0's out of 5. Of course, we were playing both Tottenham and Man City there so not easy games by any standard, and we did put up a solid display home against Brighton.  Also the Champions league game at RB Salzburg was our complete domination, but we wasted a lot of chances and they equalized with pretty much their only shot of the game...

 

Not sure i'd use Overlap Left, i'd want Thebault taking risks himself rather than playing safer and waiting for the FB.

I still don't like the MEZ-At in 4141 DM Wides like this.  Especially with a DLP-Su partner sitting deeper i'd want him more central.

Also you had a lot of personalized icons, are the roles/duties changing? Just PIs?  Are the players you use that different?

These are obviously just personal preferences from my experience using systems like this, but your players traits might make it play much differently.  Could you give more info on your transitions/attacks such as how do your attacks typically end?

[laurentius82]

28 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

Not sure i'd use Overlap Left, i'd want Thebault taking risks himself rather than playing safer and waiting for the FB.

I still don't like the MEZ-At in 4141 DM Wides like this.  Especially with a DLP-Su partner sitting deeper i'd want him more central.

Also you had a lot of personalized icons, are the roles/duties changing? Just PIs?  Are the players you use that different?

These are obviously just personal preferences from my experience using systems like this, but your players traits might make it play much differently.  Could you give more info on your transitions/attacks such as how do your attacks typically end?

Thebault tends to hit a brick wall and lose possession with most of his solo dribbles, I thought he could maybe use a little help on that left flank. A CM(A) instead of the Mezzala could indeed be something to experiment more with...

There's not that much behind those personalized icons. Apart from Thebault's sit narrower, it's mostly just the role (although I use the same role when someone else plays, except for BPD because my backup doesn't have good enough passing, vision and first touch). Burke as DLP(S) has dribble more, because he has good dribbling and I like how he plays with that setting. 

Our attacks often end up cycling the ball outside the opposition box ineffectively, Theabault dribbling straight at defenders, or the fullbacks hitting crosses at the first blocking defender. 

Recently I tried to play more narrow and exploit the middle in order to avoid being shunted wide and the blocked-crosses-syndrome against a very defensive Leicester side playing a 4-1-4-1. First time for a while we looked very dangerous, played a quick short passing game and scored 3 very nice goals.  So could try that more often, although it probably won't work against all defensive setups. 

 

 

 

 

[Justified]

I wouldn't overlap left if you want him to be your main scorer. I also think you should ditch the sit narrow, he's obviously being marked out of the game too easily. By going even narrower your playing into the hands of compact defences.

[summatsupeer]

55 minutes ago, laurentius82 said:

Thebault tends to hit a brick wall and lose possession with most of his solo dribbles, I thought he could maybe use a little help on that left flank. A CM(A) instead of the Mezzala could indeed be something to experiment more with...

Is it him running away from the rest of the team (are they quick enough to keep up?) or they're just unavailable due to defensive positioning/marking?

55 minutes ago, laurentius82 said:

There's not that much behind those personalized icons. Apart from Thebault's sit narrower, it's mostly just the role (although I use the same role when someone else plays, except for BPD because my backup doesn't have good enough passing, vision and first touch). Burke as DLP(S) has dribble more, because he has good dribbling and I like how he plays with that setting. 

Ok, someone else running with the ball is a good option to draw attention and create space.

55 minutes ago, laurentius82 said:

Our attacks often end up cycling the ball outside the opposition box ineffectively, Theabault dribbling straight at defenders, or the fullbacks hitting crosses at the first blocking defender. 

Its a balance really, you've got a few "possession" increasing instructions then higher tempo so reducing options but trying to use them quickly.  If your keeping the ball well but not creating any chances might need to take more risks earlier such as removing WBIB or even going all the way to hit early crosses. Maybe pass into space to if there is space and those who are affected can do it well enough (anyone who doesn't have less risky passes PI active) or add PI/Trait to those who are good at it but not currently told to try them so often. 

55 minutes ago, laurentius82 said:

Recently I tried to play more narrow and exploit the middle in order to avoid being shunted wide and the blocked-crosses-syndrome against a very defensive Leicester side playing a 4-1-4-1. First time for a while we looked very dangerous, played a quick short passing game and scored 3 very nice goals.  So could try that more often, although it probably won't work against all defensive setups. 

Bringing the team narrower rather than just the AML might give him more passing options since shorter passing will of reduced how far he typically looks and they all will be closer rather than just him starting a bit narrower.  If your short passing game is working like this then stick with it and maybe look at the defensive/transition side. As your not attacking in behind early you could apply a little bit more pressure by using a split block, higher LOE, and/or counter press to try to cause mistakes and give you more opportunities to create a chance.

[Overmars]

3 hours ago, Justified said:

I also think you should ditch the sit narrow, he's obviously being marked out of the game too easily. By going even narrower your playing into the hands of compact defences.

I think this is really important in FM20, where so many teams defend super-narrow. I regularly see opposing teams pack all 11 players into the middle of the pitch when defending their own end, leaving both flanks wide open. Attempting to play through the middle is pointless against such teams, and your only good option at that point is to widen your attack. My AML/AMR only seem to score when feeding crosses to each other.

[laurentius82]

I'm now very happy with how we've been playing since I tweaked the tactic.  The combination of some of the recommendations from you guys as well as going generally a bit more narrow and focusing play down the middle has made a big difference. We now play the kind of football I want and it's also been effective (apart from a couple of hickups). One reason for that has also been that since I didn't think Tamalio was really cut for the F9 role, I went out in January and managed to bring this guy to Borehamwood. And he's been a revelation in that role (6 goals in 8 games so far), combining well with Thebault too, improving his game as well. Thebault still has occasional off days though when he couldn't hit a barn door, but I guess that is down to his inconsistency and not really the tactic. As for the RB role, I decided to go back to FB(A) instead of WB(S),  because my RB (Flores) just is much more effective offensively in that role, and we haven't really seem that vulnerable down that flank. 

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by laurentius82

[laurentius82]

Okay, so the tactic really worked great; we ended up winning everything this season (premier league, FA cup, Carabao cup, and the Champions League). But now Thebault was reported to have "unfortunately become somewhat complacent after all the recent success" and his personality has flunked to "unambitous". Sigh...=( 

[Baptista_8]

How do you get real faces to appear on regens?