How important is it actually to put a player into a "pure role"

[209vaughn]

How much worse does a player get from Natural down to Accomplished to Competent at a given role?  Like how much worse does he start playing?

 

I have a striker who is actually really well rounded but only is Natural at Poacher or Advanced Forward.  How much will his abilities drop off?  

[209vaughn]

For reference.  I just swapped to 433 Narrow.

 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, 209vaughn said:

How much worse does a player get from Natural down to Accomplished to Competent at a given role?  Like how much worse does he start playing?

You should not be obsessed with the (green) circle of role suitability suggested by the game, because it can sometimes be misleading. Instead, focus your attention to player attributes to determine how suitable a player would be for a given role. If a player has the right set of attributes for a role, then he can play that role whatever the circle says. 

But looking at your tactic, I fear you are likely to struggle anyway (unless it's some downloaded plug'n'play/exploit tactic). 

[209vaughn]

1 minute ago, Experienced Defender said:

You should not be obsessed with the (green) circle of role suitability suggested by the game, because it can sometimes be misleading. Instead, focus your attention to player attributes to determine how suitable a player would be for a given role. If a player has the right set of attributes for a role, then he can play that role whatever the circle says. 

But looking at your tactic, I fear you are likely to struggle anyway (unless it's some downloaded plug'n'play/exploit tactic). 

What part of my setup are you skeptical of?

[Experienced Defender]

3 minutes ago, 209vaughn said:

What part of my setup are you skeptical of?

Way too many instructions, some of which are very likely to constitute tactical overkill while others are mutually inconsistent, plus a fairly poorly balanced setup of roles and duties. Not to mention a needlessly aggressive manner of defending, especially considering the type of your formation. 

[209vaughn]

Just now, Experienced Defender said:

Way too many instructions, some of which are very likely to constitute tactical overkill while others are mutually inconsistent, plus a fairly poorly balanced setup of roles and duties. Not to mention a needlessly aggressive manner of defending, especially considering the type of your formation. 

I might streamline some of the tactics actually.  The striker trio, would you put my DLP in the middle?

[Jean0987654321]

Not really important. If a player has the right attributes, he can play anywhere you want him to

[Adonalsium]

I wouldn't say anywhere. I haven't had great success with putting players with good attributes for the role but poor tactical understanding into fullbacks (or inverted wingbacks as i tend to do), for example. The worse their tactical understanding of the role, the bigger hit they'll take for their decisions.

Edited April 14, 2020 by Adonalsium

[Experienced Defender]

16 hours ago, 209vaughn said:

The striker trio, would you put my DLP in the middle?

DLP is a midfield role, not a striker. Perhaps you meant DLF?

Anyway, it's not just about the striker trio, but all areas need some rearrangement. 

[209vaughn]

Just now, Experienced Defender said:

DLP is a midfield role, not a striker. Perhaps you meant DLF?

Anyway, it's not just about the striker trio, but all areas need some rearrangement. 

Yes i did in fact mean DLF.  My center striker always under-performs and doesn't get that much touches.

 

I went from a 4312 with almost the same exact tactics as this, but now want to go to 433 because i got another good striker for value on the transfer market.  So i'm trying to get all three of my strikers to play well together.  But whoever i have play the center striker struggles because of the lack of touches.

 

I'm in the bundisliga 2 which is notoriously defensive.  

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, 209vaughn said:

I went from a 4312 with almost the same exact tactics as this, but now want to go to 433 because i got another good striker for value on the transfer market.  So i'm trying to get all three of my strikers to play well together.  But whoever i have play the center striker struggles because of the lack of touches

I can give you an example of how the narrow 433 formation can be set up in a balanced and logical manner if you want. But it does not mean that you should necessarily implement that particular setup. Instead, you should view it just as an example to help you get some ideas about what you need to pay attention to. 

[crusadertsar]

14 hours ago, Jean0987654321 said:

Not really important. If a player has the right attributes, he can play anywhere you want him to

This. Exactly as Jean said. It's all about attributes. If you have a great  hardworking midfielder he will absolutely kill it as a inverted winger for example.

[Jean0987654321]

1 hour ago, crusadertsar said:

This. Exactly as Jean said. It's all about attributes. If you have a great  hardworking midfielder he will absolutely kill it as a inverted winger for example.

Heck. He could even be a good wingback. I have retrained plenty of wingers to play as a wingback or a mezzala. Work Rate, Teamwork, Stamina, and Pace are usually the attributes you need to look out for that

[dom.march]

Le 14/04/2020 à 19:01, Experienced Defender a dit :

I can give you an example of how the narrow 433 formation can be set up in a balanced and logical manner if you want. But it does not mean that you should necessarily implement that particular setup. Instead, you should view it just as an example to help you get some ideas about what you need to pay attention to. 

I'd like to see your vision of the narrow 433, for me a get a goal formation which never work.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, dom.march said:

I'd like to see your vision of the narrow 433, for me a get a goal formation which never work.

As in any narrow system, the fullbacks/wing-backs are supposed to do a lot of work, so they need to be really good players, both defense and attacking-wise.

An example of a balanced and sensible 433 narrow setup:

F9    PO   CFsu

DLPsu   CMde   CAR

WBat   CDde  BPDde   WBsu

SKsu

Or this one:

DLFsu   TQ   AF

DLPsu   CMde   BBM

WBat    CDde   BPDde   WBsu

SKsu

Or maybe this:

TMat   DLFsu   AF

CAR   CMde   MEZsu

CWBsu   CDde  BPDde  WBsu

SKsu

Hope these examples can help you get some useful ideas, at least on roles and duties.

[Hilly1979]

All depends on attributes, I’ve had a problem with injuries on my Spurs save and I am playing Moussa Sissoko at right back.

He doesn’t have outstanding attributes for the role but is better than the youth players I have coming through, his rating is red for the role and although my assistant keeps advising during games he is playing out of position and is better suited to his preferred role he has got MOM twice and is performing better than my regular right backs.

low and behold after this my assistant suggested retraining him to full back!

Moral of the story? Judge for your self whether the player has the attributes to do the job you require him to do rather than what the game says.

[dom.march]

Le 23/04/2020 à 13:01, Experienced Defender a dit :

As in any narrow system, the fullbacks/wing-backs are supposed to do a lot of work, so they need to be really good players, both defense and attacking-wise.

An example of a balanced and sensible 433 narrow setup:

F9    PO   CFsu

DLPsu   CMde   CAR

WBat   CDde  BPDde   WBsu

SKsu

Or this one:

DLFsu   TQ   AF

DLPsu   CMde   BBM

WBat    CDde   BPDde   WBsu

SKsu

Or maybe this:

TMat   DLFsu   AF

CAR   CMde   MEZsu

CWBsu   CDde  BPDde  WBsu

SKsu

Hope these examples can help you get some useful ideas, at least on roles and duties.

Thanks !

i'll try the last one, i have a good TM

[dom.march]

il y a 5 minutes, dom.march a dit :

Thanks !

i'll try the last one, i have a good TM

 

Experienced Defender What do you think of this set up ?

[dom.march]

My usual set up

[Experienced Defender]

6 hours ago, dom.march said:

 

6 hours ago, dom.march said:

Experienced Defender What do you think of this set up ?

Roles and duties look okay (more or less). Not so sure about the instructions though. 

But if the tactic works for you in terms of results, then stick to it anyway. 

[Rashidi]

On a simple level, the role suitability of a player suggests the best role he can play in a system based on an algorithm in the game which assesses it. Now this is a "safe" approach. However, people have different ways of playing. Perhaps you want to be more like Mourinho and you want your players to track back ALL the time and help you defend, and you want them to bust a gut and get up and help support counters. Thats a stylistic approach you may favour, however the attributes do nothing in telling you how that role will fit into that style. 

This is where an understanding of how you want to play helps. If I wanted that particular style I would while looking for a player suitable to a specific role, I would also favour those players with high teamwork and work rate. These are players who will bust a gut to get up and down the pitch. So while role suitability acts like a guide, the manager of any club is expected to make the final decision based on how he wants to play.

[dom.march]

Le 25/04/2020 à 16:57, Experienced Defender a dit :

 

Roles and duties look okay (more or less). Not so sure about the instructions though. 

Can you explain ?

 

[Experienced Defender]

55 minutes ago, dom.march said:

Roles and duties look okay (more or less). Not so sure about the instructions though. 

Can you explain ?

For example:

- counter-press can be too risky in a narrow formation because there is an obvious weakness on the flanks, which opposition can take advantage of to beat your counter-press

- pass into space is not wrong per se, but it's a type of instruction that makes more sense in counter-attacking tactics, which yours does not seem to be

- distribution to CBs and take short kicks are probably not necessary when you are already playing out of defence

Simply put, the key question is what style of football do you want to play? The setup of roles and duties looks more suited to a counter-attacking or fast attacking style (except for the DLP on defend duty), but some of the instructions contradict that to a degree (aggressive out-of-possession TIs for example). 

But you cannot know until you test the tactic. Maybe it will work for your team, so go ahead and give it a try 

[Luizinho]

On 25/04/2020 at 16:06, Rashidi said:

On a simple level, the role suitability of a player suggests the best role he can play in a system based on an algorithm in the game which assesses it. Now this is a "safe" approach. However, people have different ways of playing. Perhaps you want to be more like Mourinho and you want your players to track back ALL the time and help you defend, and you want them to bust a gut and get up and help support counters. Thats a stylistic approach you may favour, however the attributes do nothing in telling you how that role will fit into that style. 

This is where an understanding of how you want to play helps. If I wanted that particular style I would while looking for a player suitable to a specific role, I would also favour those players with high teamwork and work rate. These are players who will bust a gut to get up and down the pitch. So while role suitability acts like a guide, the manager of any club is expected to make the final decision based on how he wants to play.

If you're playing multiple players outside of their most suited role, doesn't this have an impact of the overall team tactical familiarity in the top right?

(ie. Are you ever able to reach 100% team familiarity if you have multiple players out of roles they feel natural in?) - I've always put a lot of emphasis on team familiarity as a big part of getting good performances.

[dom.march]

il y a 25 minutes, Experienced Defender a dit :

For example:

- counter-press can be too risky in a narrow formation because there is an obvious weakness on the flanks, which opposition can take advantage of to beat your counter-press

- pass into space is not wrong per se, but it's a type of instruction that makes more sense in counter-attacking tactics, which yours does not seem to be

- distribution to CBs and take short kicks are probably not necessary when you are already playing out of defence

Simply put, the key question is what style of football do you want to play? The setup of roles and duties looks more suited to a counter-attacking or fast attacking style (except for the DLP on defend duty), but some of the instructions contradict that to a degree (aggressive out-of-possession TIs for example). 

But you cannot know until you test the tactic. Maybe it will work for your team, so go ahead and give it a try 

Thanks for your answer.

i like a agressive / quick style to move the ball up front attacking style, usually the ball goes to the dlp then up front.

i look at the opposite side formation to see which players are slow then i focus my attack on that side adding "run at defense" if they are slower than my players.

i have a set of tree formation (home, away, plan B) and i look for a get a goal formation

Home

Away

Plan B

to kill the game i put both WB on defense, both wingman on support, reduce speed, go cautios even defensive, remove gegenpress and play out of defense and add distrubute to flanks

right now it has worked well, i started 4 years ago at 10th level, now in 7 th.

i choose my players with this filter "gegenpress style"

What do you think of this strategy ?

truly yours

Gegenpress style.fmf

[Experienced Defender]

5 hours ago, dom.march said:

What do you think of this strategy ?

 

5 hours ago, dom.march said:

right now it has worked well, i started 4 years ago at 10th level, now in 7 th.

It works well for you, so my opinion is simple - if a tactic works, stick with it (until it stops working).

[Experienced Defender]

@dom.march I've only now noticed that this thread was not started by you, but another person. So if you want to discuss your tactic, you'll have to start your own separate thread - that's a rule.

I'm now going to lock this one.