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4-4-1-1 A very flexible tactic and the long term development.


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I have found a new club. Manchester City came begging for my services and I left london for manchester. Now I have the second best or best squad in the league. I re-unite with word-class midfielder (according to the game) Sebastian Savoldi

OotHc6u.jpg

 

This will lead me and my new team away from this 4-4-1-1 experiment and I will try to perfect what Pep Guardiola started almost 10 years ago (in game date). Possession, the magic of perfect passing and positioning. But that will be another thread (hopefully soon).

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On 23/04/2020 at 21:53, Djuicer said:

I have found a new club. Manchester City came begging for my services and I left london for manchester. Now I have the second best or best squad in the league. I re-unite with word-class midfielder (according to the game) Sebastian Savoldi

OotHc6u.jpg

 

This will lead me and my new team away from this 4-4-1-1 experiment and I will try to perfect what Pep Guardiola started almost 10 years ago (in game date). Possession, the magic of perfect passing and positioning. But that will be another thread (hopefully soon).

I'm excited for this.

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34 minutes ago, ashlfcowen said:

I'm excited for this.

Hopefully you will like it :)

How long do you think a post ideally is? I have some material ready but Im unsure regarding the length for each post. How much text is prefered? How often does ppl like material to be published? weekly? daily? fourthnight?

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6 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

Hopefully you will like it :)

How long do you think a post ideally is? I have some material ready but Im unsure regarding the length for each post. How much text is prefered? How often does ppl like material to be published? weekly? daily? fourthnight?

Some people post every second, others every month. It really depends. I do have quite some time right now to read a lot on the forum, but tthis might change in the future. So do it the way you like. Concerning the length, when there are images to illustrate what you are saying, it does not matter who long is your post. Look on the first page, you have upvotes on long post too. Quality over everything. :thup:

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1 hour ago, KrKAlex said:

Some people post every second, others every month. It really depends. I do have quite some time right now to read a lot on the forum, but tthis might change in the future. So do it the way you like. Concerning the length, when there are images to illustrate what you are saying, it does not matter who long is your post. Look on the first page, you have upvotes on long post too. Quality over everything. :thup:

Ah great, I have 10 pages now without the pictures shown (just the links and img tags). Hopefully I can post a massive first post this evening or sometime during this week. 

 

Is there anyone knowing how and if I can change the font? or at least keep the formatting from another document?

Edited by Djuicer
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@Djuicer, just wanted to say how much I appreciate this post. I've been trying to put together a 4-4-1-1 for my non-league club and your insights have given me a lot to think about. In particular, I also set it up initially with an AP and a BBM...so once pre-season starts I plan to pay close attention to them stepping on each others' toes.

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1 hour ago, Volkditty said:

@Djuicer, just wanted to say how much I appreciate this post. I've been trying to put together a 4-4-1-1 for my non-league club and your insights have given me a lot to think about. In particular, I also set it up initially with an AP and a BBM...so once pre-season starts I plan to pay close attention to them stepping on each others' toes.

Don't forget to take the role into consideration too. In non-league you might not actually have a player that can pull off that role. You might be better off playing a simple AM

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13 hours ago, Volkditty said:

@Djuicer, just wanted to say how much I appreciate this post. I've been trying to put together a 4-4-1-1 for my non-league club and your insights have given me a lot to think about. In particular, I also set it up initially with an AP and a BBM...so once pre-season starts I plan to pay close attention to them stepping on each others' toes.

Thank you, yes for me that happend but there is nothing that says it cant work better with diffrent players and PPMs.

12 hours ago, Justified said:

Don't forget to take the role into consideration too. In non-league you might not actually have a player that can pull off that role. You might be better off playing a simple AM

Valid point, probably a playmaker deeper down (if you want 1) makes more sense in lower divisions especially. This will probably lead to more time on the ball, and therefore more constructive play.

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This thread is excellent, it helped me fall back in love with FM20 again, so I'm not letting it drop :p I tinkered with some tactics, created a couple of threads for help/advice, totally confused myself and got back to square one last night. Frustrated with not getting it right and falling back to the old I'll just use someone else's tactic. Well not on this thread!!! So slept on it and decided to strip my tactic back to bare bones and a simple, easy to set formation. I've copied and pasted my current situation from a Shadow striker Thread I created that @Experienced Defender was commenting ad assisting with (again!) you must have the patience of a saint :lol:.

 

If you like lock that one ad we can continue here as its turned more formation/system bases than shadow striker based.

 

Before you give me any tactics, lets see if my own theories are at least half right.

So you can play any style of football on any mentality, so lets, for the time being get rid of all TI's and PI's.

We're playing with a 4-1-4-1/4-4-2 (or variation i guess, but must have 2 banks of 4). With only 2 requirements, if playing a strict 2 upfront one must be a poacher, if playing an attacking mid he must be a SS. Needs must, For the sake of my system theories I had to get rid of this one

Defensive/Cautious.

Now if I play on a defensive/cautious, is it safe to say you could use more attacking duties in your system "safely" as the team will play more cautiously anyway? Your team will still play on the front foot, as the most of the players mentality will be at positive? You will just be a bit more solid?

                     TM(A)

                      SS(A)

W(A)  CM(A)    BWM(S)  W(A)

 FB(A)  CB(D)  CB(D)    FB(A)

So if we don't touch any TI's you're team should sit deep stopping attacks and staying solid, then when we get the ball back we purposefully move it forwards with intent, but without over committing and being vulnerable our selves on the counter? Most of the individual player mentalities are at Balanced, the 2 strikers are positive, the bwm(s) is cautious and the 2 CB are very defensive.

Attacking/Positive.

Conversely, if we take the same formation and apply it to a positive/attacking mentality, but swap attacking duties for support or defensive ones, the team should still play possession football, but without over committing, or going balls to the wall, at the risk of having no penetration whatsoever? (due to lack of forward runs/risk taking).

 

                     PF(D)

                    AM(S)

WM(D)  CM(D)  BWM(S)  W(D)

WB(D)  CD(D)  CD(D)  WB(D)

 

Now this version would basically just keep ball infront of my opposition with no real intent? The player mentality is still balanced (when set with an attacking mentality) over all, PF is cautious, AM(S) is postive, BWM(S) is positive, so we should still go forwards when its risk free? Interestingly the CBs  are now balanced, so how would they change they're behaviour from the very defensive ones? less negative passes back to the keeper? 

Conclusion

So both systems should play relatively straightforward football, totally different styles, but neither should be particularly vulnerable, or provide to much threat to the opposition? 

The first one, should play a more counter attacking style system with quick direct passes to the front players, whilst retaining decent shape and support, once TI's are added?

The second, should, aim to keep control of the game through possession and control of the middle third of the pitch? aims to patiently probe the defence before threading that killer pass, or one-two to unlock an opponents defence, again once TI's (and maybe a playmaker? are added).

 

I really hope I'm on the right lines with this thinking.

 

Conclusion take 2.

I purposefully didn't look at any tactical "shouts" from the tactics screen before I wrote this, to see how I fared, I've been back and looked now and......... I'm wrong. 

I understand the reason for the attacking mentality using a faster tempo to unsettle opponents and force an error or lapse in concentration, but... why would a defensive system play with shorter passing and lower tempo? I don't understand the reasoning behind it, just to keep the ball? but there inside there own half if they don't move the ball forwards they will get encamped there? Or is that the ME idea to just not concede on defensive settings?

Edited by daveb653
added conc take 2.
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@daveb653 regarding Conclusion take 2.
I suppose it has lower tempo/passing range cause they will need time to rest with the ball too. Sitting deep soaking up pressure is something you can do for just a certain amount of time. Losing the ball at once will simply put on too much pressure and you will crumble. +If it is not well setup with roles and duties it will not counter much with out the counter setting in transitions section being used. Do you follow the reasoning?

 

I would not set up any tactic with as many attacking nor defensive duties as yours above. Still I think the rules are decent. I prefer the first one but would swap one winger for a wide midfielder and maybe change the CMa to a CMs. Lastly maybe the FBa behind the winger (if you try the other advices) can be reduced to support too.

 

The second is just, who shall score? create? penetration from whom? Will any one even get a idividual mentality above balanced?

Edited by Djuicer
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@Djuicer yes I do i guess, its pretty hard work closing down all the time, as long as you have the ball your not pressing I suppose. I'm trying out the "defensive" strategy one today, the aim being to dominate possession, when we do have to defend we soak any pressure then either hit with a counter when we win it back or consolidate and regain control of the game.

 Almost akin to the way Fergie played in the early premier league years. "fine come hit us with attacking football, but when we get the ball were gonna make you pay" its inspired by an Instagram post I saw a few days back with Rooney, Ronaldo and JI-Sung Park breaking from there own 18 yard box, 4 passes later Ronaldo is putting it into the back of the net.

Just need to decide a couple roles and duties to complement each other, I may be back for some minor TI advice too, to try and achieve the desired goal.

Edited by daveb653
Grammar, again.
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51 minutes ago, daveb653 said:

@Djuicer yes I do i guess, its pretty hard work closing down all the time, as long as you have the ball your not pressing I suppose. I'm trying out the "defensive" strategy one today, the aim being to dominate possession, when we do have to defend we soak any pressure then either hit with a counter when we win it back or consolidate and regain control of the game.

 Almost akin to the way Fergie played in the early premier league years. "fine come hit us with attacking football, but when we get the ball were gonna make you pay" its inspired by an Instagram post I saw a few days back with Rooney, Ronaldo and JI-Sung Park breaking from there own 18 yard box, 4 passes later Ronaldo is putting it into the back of the net.

Just need to decide a couple roles and duties to complement each other, I may be back for some minor TI advice too, to try and achieve the desired goal.

I disagree about Fergie and United though, they was not dominating possession that often. But they attacked quick and decisive. His teams was (in the PL) atleast positive. I would almost go as far as suggest attacking is most suited for that style.

Think about this one (by @THOG)  and which roles/duties said players had. See attacking versus defensive.

Passing.png.64136f4c49b55b8ff7d8fa584979

 

I think you have a bit split goals of what you want. It is hard to create both possession, soak up pressure and also hitting on the break styles in a game. To do one is hard enough, two is really though. All three is almost impossible.

Edited by Djuicer
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@Djuicer Yeah I guess in terms of todays possession based system, he definitely didn't dominate like that and thats not want I want. I want possession with intent, was probably poor wording or lack of misunderstanding on my part, when i say dominate possession, I mean we have it, we pro-actively do something with it.

 

Yes Looking at that diagram, I think you're right. So positive/attacking means basically the defenders give it short to the mids or attacking duty players and let them build up play?

 

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13 minutes ago, daveb653 said:

@Djuicer Yeah I guess in terms of todays possession based system, he definitely didn't dominate like that and thats not want I want. I want possession with intent, was probably poor wording or lack of misunderstanding on my part, when i say dominate possession, I mean we have it, we pro-actively do something with it.

 

Yes Looking at that diagram, I think you're right. So positive/attacking means basically the defenders give it short to the mids or attacking duty players and let them build up play?

 

Yeah, instead of hoofing it. Give it to someone who either can dribble his way upwards or someone who's blessed with better vision and/or foot to make the longer pass.

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@daveb653 - I can't remember who said it on this forum, it could have been Experienced Defender or someone else but I seem to remember them saying something about counter attacking in relation to Atletico Madrid (obviously different to Fergies United). It was something along the lines of having (at least) a Positive team mentality (influences individual player mentality) & then using the "Out of Possession" instructions to influence your defensive line & line of engagement [you would probably look to lower both if you wanted to counter attack].

The reason for the positive mentality is because you want your players to be "positive" & take risks on the ball when counter attacking which is something they would be more inclined to do on a positive mentality as opposed to a cautious mentality. 

Let's take the 4-4-1-1 for example, it could maybe look something like:

PF (A)

AM (A)

IW (A) - DLP (D) - CM(S) - W(S)

WB (S) - CD (D) - CD (D) - FB (S)

GK (D)

Not something I have tried nor am I an expert but I would be interested to see the individual mentality distribution. 

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19 minutes ago, daveb653 said:

@Djuicer So defensive would be the opposite, more inclined to hoof it out and turn over possession? Or would they just look for a more direct option, with the risk being the pass could be intercepted?

More direct. Hoofing and simple are the extremes, very defensive and very attacking.

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@Djuicer yeah that was my interpretation but I was planning to go the  opposite way, using defensive or cautious to remain solid at the back (low risk) and use attacking duties  TI's to influence the attacking phase. 

I guess there are merits for both, but looking a the image you attached I'm guessing I'd need more PI's or TI's to achieve what I'm after?

Currently my 2 versions look like this, thought its still very much in its infancy, I haven't played any matches yet, so there are minimal instructions other than those I feel will eliminate being dominated by the opposition (standard or higher line). 

I'm having trouble deciding on the in transition part and how they actually work, but thats maybe a decision for later.

Attacking version

 

20200507113152_1.thumb.jpg.e990868ee9ecd2cd1734a4cdddcac719.jpg 

Player Mentalities:

                 BAL

                  VA

POS   POS   BAL   POS

POS   BAL   BAL   ATT

                POS

Not sure if that would be classed as balanced really as there are no mentalities lower than balanced? But I'm also finding that a simple change here results in massive mentality changes, so maybe attacking is a "notch" to far? For example my midfield is either that or VA I cant seem to get any on attacking.

 

Defensive Version

20200507113344_1.thumb.jpg.c4ed27ea94eba8599f73d5059ca1c7f3.jpg

 

Player Mentalities:

              POS

              POS

BAL   POS   CAU   POS

BAL   DEF   DEF   POS

Although I called this defensive, the actual mentality is Cautious as i really struggled to get anything to positive. As you can see No attacking cuties, so maybe its not enough going forward? Play through the middle is used to get the defs to defensive rather than very defensive, also raises the BWM to. I've just noticed the overlap left is left on, which is affecting the LB and LW so I'll mabe have to change that so we some variation.

  

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48 minutes ago, daveb653 said:

@Djuicer yeah that was my interpretation but I was planning to go the  opposite way, using defensive or cautious to remain solid at the back (low risk) and use attacking duties  TI's to influence the attacking phase. 

I guess there are merits for both, but looking a the image you attached I'm guessing I'd need more PI's or TI's to achieve what I'm after?

Currently my 2 versions look like this, thought its still very much in its infancy, I haven't played any matches yet, so there are minimal instructions other than those I feel will eliminate being dominated by the opposition (standard or higher line). 

I'm having trouble deciding on the in transition part and how they actually work, but thats maybe a decision for later.

Attacking version

 

20200507113152_1.thumb.jpg.e990868ee9ecd2cd1734a4cdddcac719.jpg 

Player Mentalities:

                 BAL

                  VA

POS   POS   BAL   POS

POS   BAL   BAL   ATT

                POS

Not sure if that would be classed as balanced really as there are no mentalities lower than balanced? But I'm also finding that a simple change here results in massive mentality changes, so maybe attacking is a "notch" to far? For example my midfield is either that or VA I cant seem to get any on attacking.

 

Defensive Version

20200507113344_1.thumb.jpg.c4ed27ea94eba8599f73d5059ca1c7f3.jpg

 

Player Mentalities:

              POS

              POS

BAL   POS   CAU   POS

BAL   DEF   DEF   POS

Although I called this defensive, the actual mentality is Cautious as i really struggled to get anything to positive. As you can see No attacking cuties, so maybe its not enough going forward? Play through the middle is used to get the defs to defensive rather than very defensive, also raises the BWM to. I've just noticed the overlap left is left on, which is affecting the LB and LW so I'll mabe have to change that so we some variation.

  

I like the first one best. Still my questions is who will create in that setup? the IW in midfield starta on support?
Secondly by moving the d-line further upfield on attack and using regroup is in my mind contradictionary. Except from that it should work. Even if I personally do not like the target man role, but if I used it I would not focus crosses even more to the TM (they still search him more than other roles). Ball magnets are the playmakers (including TRQ) and the Targetman. Im not sure about the segundo volante, the description hints at it but Im not sure wheter he is a ball magnet or not.

Edited by Djuicer
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@Djuicer I understand what you're saying, but im not 100% confident on how the regroup/counter press works or is triggered. My thinking may be way off, but the idea behind the regroup is that I'm going to split press, so my 5 most attacking players will press, but I want to be, considered when they do, not running around like headless chickens. So the thinking was regroup into playing positions then when the opposition hit my LOE then we start the press.

 

By having counter press activated does that not mean as soon as we lose the ball we stat chasing to get it back? If so then would I not need to move my LOE higher? or id have single players breaking my shape to counter press.

Like I said I am probably way off on my interpretation of it.

 

The idea of the first tactic was to have minimum playmakers so play wasn't slowed down and we weren't caught with players far out of position, I considered (and still am) a DLP on s but i fear he wont support as much as a cm-s does?

Am I right in thinking the defensive version could be used to see out games? 

 

Also please feel free for anybody to contribute, how would you all set your players and roles in a system like this?

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@retrodude09 sorry, only just realised it was someone different to Djuicer, yeah I see the theory behind it, makes total sense. I guess the "attacking-defenvisely solid" could well be better than trying to set-up a "defensively solid-attacking" tactic, if that makes sense? :lol: 

Also on side note about Target Man, there bloody hard to come across in game, a true dying breed. What other roles would you use, assuming I keep my SS as the AM.

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1 hour ago, daveb653 said:

@Djuicer I understand what you're saying, but im not 100% confident on how the regroup/counter press works or is triggered. My thinking may be way off, but the idea behind the regroup is that I'm going to split press, so my 5 most attacking players will press, but I want to be, considered when they do, not running around like headless chickens. So the thinking was regroup into playing positions then when the opposition hit my LOE then we start the press.

 

By having counter press activated does that not mean as soon as we lose the ball we stat chasing to get it back? If so then would I not need to move my LOE higher? or id have single players breaking my shape to counter press.

Like I said I am probably way off on my interpretation of it.

 

The idea of the first tactic was to have minimum playmakers so play wasn't slowed down and we weren't caught with players far out of position, I considered (and still am) a DLP on s but i fear he wont support as much as a cm-s does?

Am I right in thinking the defensive version could be used to see out games? 

 

Also please feel free for anybody to contribute, how would you all set your players and roles in a system like this?

I think you can create the split press with PIs only. No need for either counterpress or regroup for that. Higher Dline with PIs and no CP/RGRP would be enough. Less is very often more.


Regarding CP I think you are understanding it correctly.

 

He will be more static then the CMs. I get your point, a playmaker is not always needed. I think the IW with an attacking duty would be creative enough.  Many roles can create but probably as much as a playmaker.

1 hour ago, daveb653 said:

Also on side note about Target Man, there bloody hard to come across in game, a true dying breed. What other roles would you use, assuming I keep my SS as the AM.

Deep lying forward would be my starting point. You can use a target man moulded player in that position. Still the targetman is not bad or wrong in any way. Its just my personal preference to use other roles. It creates more varied attacking patterns IMO.

I can try something out. I suppose you still want the SS?

DLFs
SS

Ws-Cms(APs would work if you want a playmaker, DLP too)-CMd/BWMd-IWa

IWBs/d-BPDd-CDd-WBs/FBs
GK/SKd/s

 

Is it the starting united squad?

 

If it is than I would flip some parts of it. Rashford or Martial as either SS or winger on the left, only that I would change that role to the IWa and switch the wings completly.


Ex 
Rashford/Martial/Greenwood as DLF
Rashford/Martial/Mata/Greenwood or some1 else as SS
Rashford/Martial/James/Gomes or some1 else as IWa on the left.

Edited by Djuicer
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6 hours ago, daveb653 said:

@retrodude09 sorry, only just realised it was someone different to Djuicer, yeah I see the theory behind it, makes total sense. I guess the "attacking-defenvisely solid" could well be better than trying to set-up a "defensively solid-attacking" tactic, if that makes sense? :lol: 

Also on side note about Target Man, there bloody hard to come across in game, a true dying breed. What other roles would you use, assuming I keep my SS as the AM.

I think it's more important to have the right balance of roles & individual mentalities than it is to focus on the overall team mentality. For example it depends on where you want your counter attacks to come from. If it's in a 4-4-1-1 then I would expect you want them to come from your wingers & front two in which case, I would focus on the two CBs & CMs having mentalities no higher than balanced. I also wouldn't use a BWM in a tactic that you want to be defensively solid as he'll run around all over the place like a headless chicken! 

I'd be interested to see how a SS would partner with some kind of PF (maybe even on attack considering we want to counter).

I just started a save with Leicester & whilst I want to turn them into a team that dominates the ball we're not quite there yet. I've also played 11 games & played all of the "established" top 6 except for United so trying out some sort of counter attacking tactic would've been perfect then! 

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5 hours ago, Djuicer said:

I think you can create the split press with PIs only. No need for either counterpress or regroup for that. Higher Dline with PIs and no CP/RGRP would be enough. Less is very often more.


Regarding CP I think you are understanding it correctly.

 

He will be more static then the CMs. I get your point, a playmaker is not always needed. I think the IW with an attacking duty would be creative enough.  Many roles can create but probably as much as a playmaker.

Deep lying forward would be my starting point. You can use a target man moulded player in that position. Still the targetman is not bad or wrong in any way. Its just my personal preference to use other roles. It creates more varied attacking patterns IMO.

I can try something out. I suppose you still want the SS?

DLFs
SS

Ws-Cms(APs would work if you want a playmaker, DLP too)-CMd/BWMd-IWa

IWBs/d-BPDd-CDd-WBs/FBs
GK/SKd/s

 

Is it the starting united squad?

 

If it is than I would flip some parts of it. Rashford or Martial as either SS or winger on the left, only that I would change that role to the IWa and switch the wings completly.


Ex 
Rashford/Martial/Greenwood as DLF
Rashford/Martial/Mata/Greenwood or some1 else as SS
Rashford/Martial/James/Gomes or some1 else as IWa on the left.

@Djuicer Yes its the starting Utd squad so far, but Ive got a winter update so Maguire/Fernandes are there also.

 

You know its funny, I was commenting on another thread of mine with experienced defender and working things out, I got almost the same as you, except I had dlp(d)/Rpm as my midfield pair, but decided im going back to either a cm(d) or bwm, instead of DLp, it felt to static, didnt help much in the build and also, didnt really get involved in the defensive side, he was just a passenger. Could be player related but McTominay always seems to play well and he suits bwm so....

I even had an IWB :lol: played williams and he had an excellent game. Granted it was only pre-season, but I was more than happy

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8 minutes ago, retrodude09 said:

I think it's more important to have the right balance of roles & individual mentalities than it is to focus on the overall team mentality. For example it depends on where you want your counter attacks to come from. If it's in a 4-4-1-1 then I would expect you want them to come from your wingers & front two in which case, I would focus on the two CBs & CMs having mentalities no higher than balanced. I also wouldn't use a BWM in a tactic that you want to be defensively solid as he'll run around all over the place like a headless chicken! 

I'd be interested to see how a SS would partner with some kind of PF (maybe even on attack considering we want to counter).

I just started a save with Leicester & whilst I want to turn them into a team that dominates the ball we're not quite there yet. I've also played 11 games & played all of the "established" top 6 except for United so trying out some sort of counter attacking tactic would've been perfect then! 

Vardy

Maddison

Barnes-Tielemans-Ndidi-Perez/Gray

Chilwell-Evans-Söyncu-Pereira

Schmeichel.

 

Strong starting eleven with lots of potential :) Good pick for 4-4-1-1.

Edited by Djuicer
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11 minutes ago, retrodude09 said:

I think it's more important to have the right balance of roles & individual mentalities than it is to focus on the overall team mentality. For example it depends on where you want your counter attacks to come from. If it's in a 4-4-1-1 then I would expect you want them to come from your wingers & front two in which case, I would focus on the two CBs & CMs having mentalities no higher than balanced. I also wouldn't use a BWM in a tactic that you want to be defensively solid as he'll run around all over the place like a headless chicken! 

I'd be interested to see how a SS would partner with some kind of PF (maybe even on attack considering we want to counter).

I just started a save with Leicester & whilst I want to turn them into a team that dominates the ball we're not quite there yet. I've also played 11 games & played all of the "established" top 6 except for United so trying out some sort of counter attacking tactic would've been perfect then! 

Yeah thats what I'm aiming for some nice wing counters. I thought the same for the BWM, but he seemed to do pretty well, maybe its because were fairly compact so the headless chicken is caged so to speak, but he was far better doing the dirty defensive work than my dlp I tried, and also supported the other midfield better than my dlp, whic surprised me to be honest. i bet Leicester would be an excellent team to do this on as well. The SS I really enjoyed watching in my other team, but he isnt the same in this one, only time will tell, though I think he needs space to run into, so PF may not be ideal, I had him in an experimental ss/treq/poacher front line, and he dd pretty well there, was the best to watch at least with his marauding runs.

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Just now, daveb653 said:

@Djuicer Yes its the starting Utd squad so far, but Ive got a winter update so Maguire/Fernandes are there also.

 

You know its funny, I was commenting on another thread of mine with experienced defender and working things out, I got almost the same as you, except I had dlp(d)/Rpm as my midfield pair, but decided im going back to either a cm(d) or bwm, instead of DLp, it felt to static, didnt help much in the build and also, didnt really get involved in the defensive side, he was just a passenger. Could be player related but McTominay always seems to play well and he suits bwm so....

I even had an IWB :lol: played williams and he had an excellent game. Granted it was only pre-season, but I was more than happy

Fernandes would be good SS I guess, or a really exciting AP.

I think the DLP (if its not the most defensive midfielder) is too conservative in 4-4-1-1 for my taste.  Not wrong or bad though. Not just what I prefer.

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5 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

Vardy

Maddison

Barnes-Tielemans-Ndidi-Perez/Gray

Chilwell-Evans-Söyncu-Pereira

Schmeichel.

 

Strong starting eleven with lots of potential :) Good pick for 4-4-1-1.

oooft, nice

 

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1 minute ago, Djuicer said:

Fernandes would be good SS I guess, or a really exciting AP.

I think the DLP (if its not the most defensive midfielder) is too conservative in 4-4-1-1 for my taste.  Not wrong or bad though. Not just what I prefer.

yeah I think your right, Dlp was far to passive. Plan is for midfield: rashford/pogba/mctom/james. With fernandes as SS. Also bought a youngster in to rotate with him so pogba and fernandes will rotate as required to.

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2 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

Vardy

Maddison

Barnes-Tielemans-Ndidi-Perez/Gray

Chilwell-Evans-Söyncu-Pereira

Schmeichel.

 

Strong starting eleven with lots of potential :) Good pick for 4-4-1-1.

Agreed. They have a great starting XI with some decent back up but as I said, 4-4-1-1 isn't my long term goal with this Leicester team. Your thread with Manchester City is probably more relevant long term than a counter attacking set up.

Anyway, I just decided to throw it into the tactics creator. I opted to use the "Fluid Counter" preset just as a base but I changed the mentality from Cautious to Positive & went with this: 

PF (A)

AM (A)

IW (A) - CM (S) - CM (D) - W(S)

WB (S) - CD (D) - CD (D) - FB (S)

SK (D)

CM (S) - Hold position. W (S) - Get Further Forward. This gives me an individual mentality distribution of: 

Very Attacking

Very Attacking

Very Attacking - Positive - Cautious - Positive

Positive - Cautious - Cautious - Positive

Cautious

Two positions to watch for me would be the Attacking Midfielder & the MCL because of their individual mentalities. 

 

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17 minutes ago, retrodude09 said:

Agreed. They have a great starting XI with some decent back up but as I said, 4-4-1-1 isn't my long term goal with this Leicester team. Your thread with Manchester City is probably more relevant long term than a counter attacking set up.

Anyway, I just decided to throw it into the tactics creator. I opted to use the "Fluid Counter" preset just as a base but I changed the mentality from Cautious to Positive & went with this: 

PF (A)

AM (A)

IW (A) - CM (S) - CM (D) - W(S)

WB (S) - CD (D) - CD (D) - FB (S)

SK (D)

CM (S) - Hold position. W (S) - Get Further Forward. This gives me an individual mentality distribution of: 

Very Attacking

Very Attacking

Very Attacking - Positive - Cautious - Positive

Positive - Cautious - Cautious - Positive

Cautious

Two positions to watch for me would be the Attacking Midfielder & the MCL because of their individual mentalities. 

 

Though that could lead to some nice overloads for the right winger to get some space could it not?

 

Now theres the question, could this 4-4-1-1 be turned into a possession based tactic as well?

After this is a thread about how flexible a 4-1-4-1 is :)

Could have a tactic for teams sitting back against you, plus this one for when the big guns come visiting. 

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43 minutes ago, daveb653 said:

Though that could lead to some nice overloads for the right winger to get some space could it not?

 

Now theres the question, could this 4-4-1-1 be turned into a possession based tactic as well?

After this is a thread about how flexible a 4-1-4-1 is :)

Could have a tactic for teams sitting back against you, plus this one for when the big guns come visiting. 

I think looking at this I would maybe switch the two CMs around so the CM (D) provides cover for the left back. 

Yes, I would imagine that the 4411 could be turned into something that might look to keep possession a little more & be more dominant although I've never really managed that with a 4411. Roles & duties may have to change but I think the first thing you would look to do would be to increase the Defensive Line & LoE. 

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12 hours ago, daveb653 said:

yeah I think your right, Dlp was far to passive. Plan is for midfield: rashford/pogba/mctom/james. With fernandes as SS. Also bought a youngster in to rotate with him so pogba and fernandes will rotate as required to.

I also used it (DLPd) in this thread. So it surely can work. But yeah, must have correct roles around it. Depth seems nice then. Pogba is just amazing, and so is Fernandes. Mctominay can but in a shift as some kind of destroyer or runner.

12 hours ago, retrodude09 said:

Agreed. They have a great starting XI with some decent back up but as I said, 4-4-1-1 isn't my long term goal with this Leicester team. Your thread with Manchester City is probably more relevant long term than a counter attacking set up.

Anyway, I just decided to throw it into the tactics creator. I opted to use the "Fluid Counter" preset just as a base but I changed the mentality from Cautious to Positive & went with this: 

PF (A)

AM (A)

IW (A) - CM (S) - CM (D) - W(S)

WB (S) - CD (D) - CD (D) - FB (S)

SK (D)

CM (S) - Hold position. W (S) - Get Further Forward. This gives me an individual mentality distribution of: 

Very Attacking

Very Attacking

Very Attacking - Positive - Cautious - Positive

Positive - Cautious - Cautious - Positive

Cautious

Two positions to watch for me would be the Attacking Midfielder & the MCL because of their individual mentalities. 

 

Quite large spreads and a lot of VA duties. I think that can work out though, seems as a good counter system at the moment. Whats with the MCL that concerns you? that it will be to aggressive?

I would have most concerns with the AM and striker both being very attacking.

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16 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

Quite large spreads and a lot of VA duties. I think that can work out though, seems as a good counter system at the moment. Whats with the MCL that concerns you? that it will be to aggressive?

I would have most concerns with the AM and striker both being very attacking.

Yeah there's a large spread but I think that could potentially work in a tactic that wants to focus on fast attacking transitions. One way to maybe bring them closer together would be using Focus Play Through the Middle to bump the two CBs & the most defensive midfielder.

With the MCL, I worry that he might be a little aggressive & would have to hope he & the MCR both look to sit & protect the back 4.

Agreed about the AM - I think that would be one to watch definitely. 

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Won my last 2 friendlies pretty comfortably, 3-0 vs Ajax and 5-0 vs Olympiacos, so pretty happy so far, CM(D) and RPM seem a good combination so far so leaving them, also the switch to DLF was a good shout @Djuicer. One thing I have noticed, is my striker often closes down the gk, no matter what I do, theres no added pressing, Think im positive mentality so its just whatever the auto is for that. no Extra closing down PI's he just does it, which then it turn leaves the CBs open to an easy pass out, which is not what I want, I want the CB to be allowed the pass be be closed down or prevented from forward passes so he has to go across the backline.  Anyone else noticed this?

 

Also teams are sitting back against me, it doesnt bother me as Ajax played cautious mentality and had 1 shot all game on target. but would Play out of defence OR (not both) distribute to CB/FB be a appropriate shout to try and draw them out a bit?

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46 minutes ago, retrodude09 said:

Yeah there's a large spread but I think that could potentially work in a tactic that wants to focus on fast attacking transitions. One way to maybe bring them closer together would be using Focus Play Through the Middle to bump the two CBs & the most defensive midfielder.

With the MCL, I worry that he might be a little aggressive & would have to hope he & the MCR both look to sit & protect the back 4.

Agreed about the AM - I think that would be one to watch definitely. 

Still the CAU mentality makes them hold more and be more restrictive with forward runs. So its a pro and con battle (as always.)

I see, but the hold position instruction must help with some of it?
Yeah, I would consider the striker too (if you want to use SS), but if you have Vardy I guess he "must" be attacking (duty). 

 

4 minutes ago, daveb653 said:

Won my last 2 friendlies pretty comfortably, 3-0 vs Ajax and 5-0 vs Olympiacos, so pretty happy so far, CM(D) and RPM seem a good combination so far so leaving them, also the switch to DLF was a good shout @Djuicer. One thing I have noticed, is my striker often closes down the gk, no matter what I do, theres no added pressing, Think im positive mentality so its just whatever the auto is for that. no Extra closing down PI's he just does it, which then it turn leaves the CBs open to an easy pass out, which is not what I want, I want the CB to be allowed the pass be be closed down or prevented from forward passes so he has to go across the backline.  Anyone else noticed this?

 

Also teams are sitting back against me, it doesnt bother me as Ajax played cautious mentality and had 1 shot all game on target. but would Play out of defence OR (not both) distribute to CB/FB be a appropriate shout to try and draw them out a bit?

Good :) 
I think the striker pressing is a part of a glitch/bug when players press some positions (like GK) as crazy. Often more than one player does this too.

 

In theory they should help with that. I used it in this thread for that reason.

Just now, daveb653 said:

Also DLF, united dont really have anyone suitable do they? Martial is ok there i guess? but if needs be I can buy in the transfer market so any recommendations much appreciated.

Martial is ok as an DLF I think. Not his obvious role but if it is for the greater good he shall be able to do it. Rashford and Greenwood too.

I think you can alter the PPMs for them too to be better DLF's.

Cant think of any one at this time, I would make a filter with balance, strenght, first touch and vision maybe (14as min or something). If it gets to many hits add one more attribute or increase the treshold. 

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I did have a notion to try and train Pogba there, I have cover for midfield and can make it more reserved if required then, I don't like giving Pogba too much defensve responsibility. but he has just done hi knee ligaments so out for 3 months :lol:. Typical

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26 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

Still the CAU mentality makes them hold more and be more restrictive with forward runs. So its a pro and con battle (as always.)

I see, but the hold position instruction must help with some of it?
Yeah, I would consider the striker too (if you want to use SS), but if you have Vardy I guess he "must" be attacking (duty). 

It's not a tactic I've actually tried to use. As I said, not the style I want to play but it could be fun to play a different style to what I'm used to.

As for the AM - the player I would use there is James Maddison who has the PPM "Comes Deep To Get Ball" which would offset his duty a little I think. I made a conscious effort to avoid using any playmakers as I wouldn't want them to be a magnet for the ball if there was a better option in transition.

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4 hours ago, retrodude09 said:

It's not a tactic I've actually tried to use. As I said, not the style I want to play but it could be fun to play a different style to what I'm used to.

As for the AM - the player I would use there is James Maddison who has the PPM "Comes Deep To Get Ball" which would offset his duty a little I think. I made a conscious effort to avoid using any playmakers as I wouldn't want them to be a magnet for the ball if there was a better option in transition.

I see. I liked the style in this thread. Even though I had some problems vs bigger teams, but well..they had stronger teams. We always ended up better than the media expectation.

 

It would mitigate some of the attacking runs atleast. Exciting player Maddison. Fun traits and attribute spread. Feels bad he got such an average personality.

Edited by Djuicer
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  • 1 year later...

Very nice topic and development, I will test some of the ideas here on my direct attacking (not counter) 4-4-1-1, as I think they suit it very well. Thank you!

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  • 1 month later...
On 04/02/2022 at 12:52, Tsuru said:

Very nice topic and development, I will test some of the ideas here on my direct attacking (not counter) 4-4-1-1, as I think they suit it very well. Thank you!

Thank you good Sir.

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