Solid tactic suddenly went fragile

[Arel]

Hello everyone,

After analyzing my Assistant Report I created a tactic that could reach my goals for a solid tactic.

Assistant Report:

PROS:

• Aerial Reach
• One on Ones
• Crossing
• Anticipation
• Corners
• Teamwork
• Eccentricity
• Determination
• Dribbling
• Off the Ball
• Communication
• First Touch
• Technique
• Work Rate
• Rushing Out (Tendency)
• Pace
• Bravery
• Agility

CONS:

• Heading
• Penalties
• Handling
• Kicking
• Throwing
• Positioning
• Punching (Tendency)
• Free Kick Taking
• Strength
• Jumping Reach

Taking this aspects I developed this tactic with those instructions (best players in the starting XI and with out player instructions. "Personalizado" means "Custom"):

In the beginning everything started well (I've won the Supercup against fierce rivals SL Benfica and won 3-0 away at FC Porto on the first matchday).

But all of a sudden, starting in January, the team started to sink and I don't know what happen... Same team, same players, the one on rotation played well too but now everyone dropped...

SCHEDULE:

Could you guys help me??

 

PS: Some stats

 

Best regards and good games!

Arel

 

Edited March 30, 2020 by Arel

[gennamitico]

This is something that happen to me in every career with any tactic. Usually from january to february. Same story

[blejdek]

What the guy before me said. Happens in every version of fm, with any team.

Every season a month/s come when it doesnt work anything, the same tactic, same players, maybe even better ones.

What i learned from it, try to minimize the points lost, be happy even with draws, dont be too harsh on the players when the "bad" month comes. It will happen whatever you try

[zindrinho]

The best/only way I have found so far to minimize this is to tell the players they are not playing well when we win a lot of matches, and praise them very rarely (in pre-match interviews and post match team talk)

Only tell the press you have faith in your team when you are major underdogs, and always say its gonna be a struggle when you face really bad opposition.

Also change your selected 11, remove the best performing players so they dont become complacent.

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Arel said:

My first impression is - a pretty strange tactic. Simply because it's hard to figure out what exactly you've been trying to achieve in terms of playing style (a problem with many tactics that people post here on the forum).

And a number of contradictions. For example, you want the players to "work ball into box", but at the same time are using even 3 crossing-heavy roles on the flanks (out of the possible 4), and on top of that are also asking the team to "be more disciplined). Plus the wide attacking width, which only adds more to this contradiction. 

Then you have tactical overkill in the sense of slowing down the attacking play excessively. I am referring to the combination of instructions such as short passing + lower tempo + play out of defence + work ball into box, which is then compounded by using 2 playmakers literally one behind the other (DLP in central midfield and AP on support duty in AMC). 

Tell me what style of football you want to play, and I'll tell you how you can improve the tactic and make it more sensible. 

[Arel]

9 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

My first impression is - a pretty strange tactic. Simply because it's hard to figure out what exactly you've been trying to achieve in terms of playing style (a problem with many tactics that people post here on the forum).

And a number of contradictions. For example, you want the players to "work ball into box", but at the same time are using even 3 crossing-heavy roles on the flanks (out of the possible 4), and on top of that are also asking the team to "be more disciplined). Plus the wide attacking width, which only adds more to this contradiction. 

Then you have tactical overkill in the sense of slowing down the attacking play excessively. I am referring to the combination of instructions such as short passing + lower tempo + play out of defence + work ball into box, which is then compounded by using 2 playmakers literally one behind the other (DLP in central midfield and AP on support duty in AMC). 

Tell me what style of football you want to play, and I'll tell you how you can improve the tactic and make it more sensible. 

I want to use a positive style that suites my pros and cons from the Assistant Report fitting on that tactic. A team that could cross (it's a "pros") but i'm afraid of the bad positioning of the entire squad.

Edited March 30, 2020 by Arel

[zyfon5]

Teams will adapt to your tactics over the season so some slight tweaking will be needed especially if your team is not very far ahead of everyone in terms of ability. Also prevent your players from being complacent criticize them when they are not performing well.

[Arel]

@Experienced Defender
So I did a better analysis and is as it follows:

I decided that I want to play with positive mentality and with 4-2-3-1 Wide.

My 4 CD's are all good BPD's (all have good passing) but only one of them has good pacing so I need to play (probably) with a normal defensive line because they won't catch the opposite attackers in speed.
I have good wingers or players that can play as inverted wingers with some good crossing skills so i'll try to play with wingers but using my FB's to support them and overlap them (they also can cross quite well).
In the middle I have the biggest issue: don't know if I should use a MC combo of one in Def duty and one Sup duty with an AM in Sup duty.

About GK's, all are good SK's but with bad kicking or throwing so I'll instruct them to take short kicks and distribute it to the BPD's.

What do you think? Need more instructions or change something?

Best regards and good games!

Arel

[Experienced Defender]

Just now, Arel said:

I decided that I want to play with positive mentality and with 4-2-3-1 Wide

Positive mentality is not a style of football. I was asking about the style of play - patient possession, progressive possession, simple counter-attack, fluid counter, fast attack, methodical attack etc... These are styles of play, so you need to decide which one you want to play based on your team's strengths and weaknesses.

4231 is also not a style of play. It is a formation. And given that it's a tricky formation to set up - and requires that both CMs be defensively reliable players - I think a 4123 wide would be a better/safer idea for you as inexperienced tactician. 

[Arel]

48 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I was asking about the style of play

You're right, sorry to not understanding at the beginning. Since I have on my PROS good passing and agility, maybe I'll go with progressive possession or methodical attack so that I can hold the ball and at the same time use the advantages of my wingers.

[Nikitas]

Hello there,

First of all, I would remove some instructions, don't make things too complicate. Positive mentality on its own without instructions is good for letting your creative players flourish.

Be more disciplined is only good for defensive mentalities.

Do you need lower tempo and shorter passing? Try removing the lower tempo first and see how it goes. Sometimes going faster and more direct make you more unpredictable.

Also playing wide makes short passing more difficult so this is a bit contradicting. Maybe leave it on the default fairly wide as it is on positive.

Maybe add close down more since you are already higher LOE and higher defensive line + offside trap + counter press? Most Portuguese teams don't have the ability to surpass the pressing.

Also 2 playmakers complicates things. Leave only Geraldes as advanced playmaker. Wendel can be b2b or mezzala so that he moves higher up the pitch. Battaglia will be your holding midfielder, you can put him bwm (d) since you press high.

Is that guy Borja a good attacking LB? Since you are Sporting Lisboa, most teams will play cautious or defensive against you. You need some attacking full backs to provide extra threat from wide. Acuna can play LB. Maybe put him CWB (S) and Vietto IF (A) on the left side so he makes space for Acuna to cross. If you try this then also put Battaglia on the left CM spot so he covers that flank.

Your striker Sporar, can also play Complete Forward so that he can be more creative.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Arel said:

You're right, sorry to not understanding at the beginning. Since I have on my PROS good passing and agility, maybe I'll go with progressive possession or methodical attack so that I can hold the ball and at the same time use the advantages of my wingers.

Okay. 

Firstly, try to use as few instructions as possible. For this particular style, I would start with only 4 in possession: shorter passing, play out of defence, be more expressive and work ball into box.

In transition - no instructions at all.

Out of possession - only 2 instructions: higher defensive line and prevent short GKD

When it comes to roles and duties, I can give you an example of how you can set it up in a sensible and nicely balanced manner if you want. But I think it will be more useful if you sorted it out yourself. What you need to pay attention to is the following:

- how different roles and duties create space for each other and how then they use that space

- who provides defensive cover for those roles that get forward from deeper positions to support the attack (basically holding/covering midfield roles)

As I said before, when it comes specifically to the 4231 formation - make sure that both central midfielders are defensively reliable players, but at the same time good enough to provide proper support to your forwards.

When you create the tactic, first come here and post the screenshot for analysis. I'll take a look and tell you if there is anything problematic.

P.S: Keep it simple and look to avoid any tactical overkill.

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Arel said:

My 4 CD's are all good BPD's (all have good passing) but only one of them has good pacing so I need to play (probably) with a normal defensive line because they won't catch the opposite attackers in speed

That's one more reason for you to consider changing the formation into the 4141dm wide. Alternatively, you can put the more pacy CB on cover duty.

[Arel]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

When you create the tactic, first come here and post the screenshot for analysis. I'll take a look and tell you if there is anything problematic.

P.S: Keep it simple and look to avoid any tactical overkill.

Okay I'll give it  try by myself. Only one last question before coming back with feedback: taking into account those instructions you wrote, I can still use wingers and only one AF, right?

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Arel said:

I can still use wingers and only one AF, right?

i would avoid the AF as a lone striker, especially in this particular style of play you are aiming at. Because AF tends to get isolated and can therefore struggle to make an impact due to the nature of the role.

As for wingers, I personally would not use a winger role on both flanks. One winger is okay, but 2 do not really suit this style of play. If you want a tactic that relies heavily on crosses and wide play, then it's a very different style from what you yourself said you want to play. 

[MadOnion]

In my opinion, there's absolutely no problem playing with wingers on both flanks if they have different PPMs, such as cut inside, or get into opposition area.

In fact, that even adds a degree of unpredictability to the system and allows the AP-S to operate with more space.

[zindrinho]

2 wingers are usually used when you play a giant in the box in the classic 4-4-2 formation, when Wolves won the championship under Mick McCarthy comes to mind with Chris Iwelumo banging them in comes to mind.

4-2-3-1 usually depends on wide men cutting in, full backs doing most the wide support and CMs sitting deeper, though I agree that 2 IW/IFs dont work that well on FM,at least I struggle with getting that tactic to work.

[Arel]

On 31/03/2020 at 15:55, Experienced Defender said:

When you create the tactic, first come here and post the screenshot for analysis. I'll take a look and tell you if there is anything problematic.

P.S: Keep it simple and look to avoid any tactical overkill.

Hello @Experienced Defender i'm back! (Working remotely from home ahahah)

Soooo... I evaluated the team again and this is the deal:

• We have a lot of good wingers;
• We only have 2 players that can play well as IF's;
• Our CD's have good pass but are slow (except for one):
• We have good pass and crossing overall;
• Our GK's lack kicking and throwing but have good pass stats.

I decided if I can't try a tactic like this one so that I can cross a bit more. My IF's can play in the AMC position (one of them as SS). Also I've decided to keep the defensive line normal because in some matches my CD's were really outpaced...

But now probably I don't need to work the ball into box don't you think?

What do you think overall?

PS: Do you want me to start a new thread on this one, since I'm changing the tactic?

Best regards and good games!

Arel

Edited April 4, 2020 by Arel

[Experienced Defender]

10 hours ago, Arel said:

 

10 hours ago, Arel said:

Hello @Experienced Defender i'm back!

 

10 hours ago, Arel said:

What do you think overall?

I see that you changed even the formation, not just the tactic, but okay.

Honestly, I don't like it for a number of reasons. 

First, it's very one-dimensional.

Secondly, attacking wingers on both flanks can cause defensive issues, especially on the left side where you don't have a holding CM.

Thirdly, the Prevent short GKD instruction makes very little sense in a formation like this (with only 2 players up front) and can only increase your defensive vulnerability (on top of that).

Fourthly, you are still playing the lone striker as an AF, which I already suggested against in an earlier post (especially since the tactic is not a counter-attacking one).

Fifthtly, you use the winger role on both flanks, as though you want to play some sort of the wing-play style. Which is not wrong in itself, but the problem is that the rest of your tactic does not fit with that style of football. 

10 hours ago, Arel said:

But now probably I don't need to work the ball into box don't you think?

Definitely. I don't see any point in using that type of instruction in a tactic like this one (speaking of the tactic, not formation). 

 

10 hours ago, Arel said:

PS: Do you want me to start a new thread on this one, since I'm changing the tactic?

No, you do not need to start a new thread because this is your thread about your team and your tactic(s). You did not hijack someone else's thread, so it's no problem