Jump to content

Possession with intent: Exploring tactical flexibility with the 4-5-1.


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 124
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

50 minutes ago, Obaaa said:

Nice thread. Surprised you've had no response. Using a similar philosophy with AZ currently.

I guess people have more on their mind at the moment! 

Care to share your style? I'm happy to turn this into a discussion thread where people can post their own ideas and critique my own. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

This is great I've thoroughly enjoyed reading this. I don't often comment on things anymore as I don't have the time really but this caught my eye. I'm kinda at a crossroads with my Plymouth save and was wondering which direction to go in, system wise and this thread has given me a bit of a boost and a couple of new ideas and thoughts on where to go next. I'm trying to do it only signing British players and using the youth system but wasn't sure about the rest of it. Ill keep reading this it's very interesting well done on a great couple of posts.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I really enjoyed reading this. 

Could potentially be applicable to Liverpool who sometimes alternate from their usual 4-3-3 into a 4-2-3-1. This would be a good way to do this whilst keeping 'familiarity' high. 

Did you use any PI's to create a 'split' block? 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Again, great post! I would agree with the notion that a more top-heavy formation as plan-b would help apply more pressure, but of course this could lead to gaps elsewhere (risk vs. reward), I think it also depends on the other teams role and formation. In this case for example it would be interesting to know what kind of role the DM plays for Leverkusen. If it were a playmaker it could be possible to mark him out of the game by moving one of the midfielders to an AM position.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Vizzini said:

Again, great post! I would agree with the notion that a more top-heavy formation as plan-b would help apply more pressure, but of course this could lead to gaps elsewhere (risk vs. reward), I think it also depends on the other teams role and formation. In this case for example it would be interesting to know what kind of role the DM plays for Leverkusen. If it were a playmaker it could be possible to mark him out of the game by moving one of the midfielders to an AM position.

If I were to use this kind of plan B, it would be all risk over reward. I would use it when I really needed a goal or really needed the ball. I will play around with the number of central attack duties too. In principle I think a 4321 setup from the 451 would be better at getting pressure as there are 3 central attacking players then. Kinda hard with Barcelona though, as I would have to work out what to do with Griezmann if he stayed on a flank. It is something I want to explore, but I want to get a handle on the 4231 part first.

I am fairly sure he was a DLP, although it is hard to tell. He was either a DLP or on defend duty in a different role, given how deep he would drop to get the ball. I would probably have just stuck the CM(A) to mark him, which achieves the same thing at the cost of the packed midfield. In the end, I was creating enough good chances in this game that I did not feel the need to make changes. Leverkusen were creating more problems than they solved with their style. I should have been more proactive against Real Madrid, but it was my second game so I was still feeling things out. 

2 hours ago, robot_skeleton said:

Do you have problems with the midfield staying deep and the the striker pressing the opp. Goalkeeper like a maniac? I could never make the off the ball part of 4-5-1 work in FM20.

The attack duty midfielders tend to press a little higher, so I usually have the striker, CM(A) and IW(A) pressing. This is the reason I have the CM(S) in most cases as well, since he will be higher up the pitch and more likely to press. Wanting to get pressure is one of the reasons I have maxed LOE and DL settings. This will push the midfield further up and you will see more pressing. I do not get a huge amount of pressure, it is true, but it is enough. It is a more measured press, it feels. Some members of the midfield go and press, others stay and do not. It means that there are less viable escape routes for the opposition defenders to get the ball forward in a controlled manner. Which is one of the reasons I think I am seeing so much sterile possession against me. Not quite enough pressure from the press to win the ball, but enough cover in midfield to stop them getting out anyway. Maybe we should call it a contain press.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, great topic!
I was just yesterday scrolling through THOG's Lines and Diamonds and noticed 4-5-1 with winger in AM strata. I started to think about the variability of flat midfield trio and BAM!, you made this post to give me more food for thought. Thank you and please continue to create content like this. It is absolutely awesome!

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Elliath said:

I was just yesterday scrolling through THOG's Lines and Diamonds and noticed 4-5-1 with winger in AM strata. I started to think about the variability of flat midfield trio and BAM!, you made this post to give me more food for thought. Thank you and please continue to create content like this. It is absolutely awesome!

It is an interesting system, but it has it's issues, as I am learning. I will try to write something about that if I can work out how to mitigate those flaws. Well I will write anyway, but I would rather have a solution to hand!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Great thread and I have set up with a 4-5-1 variant in my Hertha save with some different and some of the same aspects as yours but the absolute aim is the same, possession with intent and seeing some similar results to yours. Hamburgs heat map below.

 

 

Capture.PNG2.PNG

Hamburg.PNG

Edited by Crazy_Ivan
Link to post
Share on other sites

How do you guys read/interpret heat maps exactly? I get the rough idea of them but not great at reading them with regards to my tactic and what it does/doesn’t do well

Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Boss said:

How do you guys read/interpret heat maps exactly? I get the rough idea of them but not great at reading them with regards to my tactic and what it does/doesn’t do well

In this case I am using it purely to see where my side has the ball, and where the AI has the ball. In this case because the AI is tending to have high possession against me, I want to see if that is dangerous. Possession mostly in their own half is not dangerous, possession in my half is much more concerning. 

So in my heat maps for the AI sides, you can see that while they have the ball more than me, they have it close to their own goal. That is what I want to see here, because possession in your own half is generally not a threat and can give me chances if we can win it back. 

For my own heat maps, I want to see the opposite. I want to have most of the ball in the opposition half. Especially since we tend not to have a lot of it. I want my possession to be threatening, so that when we lose the ball we generally do it attacking the goal. This is the conclusions I can draw from the maps. If I am playing a game and I notice I have poor possession and the AI has it in my half, this is a cause for concern. And I would have to take steps to prevent that. The possession battle is not about pure numbers, but also where you have the ball. The Leverkusen game, for instance, the AI made over 700 pass attempts, but the vast were very far from my goal.

You can also look at passing combination here, which tells you who is going most of the passes and where. In most of the games I have played all the AI passing is between defenders, goalkeeper and deep lying midfielders. Which means they are trying to play from defence and simply they cannot. We have blocked them. Mine tend to show interplay either on the flanks in opposition territory, or between the two deeper midfielders. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, we are the most clinical teams on the planet.

I have decided we deserve this title. I have managed to turn myself into the anti-Barcelona. Giving up huge number of passes and possession for clinical efficiency. I will do one more game, and then I ask for some advice from you guys about how to proceed. 

Let's look at another tough game. Home to Sevilla. We should win, but this is not a poor side. Can we continue to reproduce our style? Well, you all can guess that answer. Let's look at a summary.

982230457_Sevillasimmary.thumb.png.b6bc2d99d1689f9d6e2d287bc727c80f.png

A 1-0 win is quite disappointing, but Sevilla defended very well in this game, and our finishing was not great. It happens, I guess. We won, and that is what matters. Sevilla will set up with a cautious 4141 DM wide. We know what that means by now. Since apparently everyone in the game tries to play out from the back (that is what I have seen so far anyway), they are going to pass the ball around at the back, and we will try to make sure they do nothing with it.

386102048_Sevillastats.thumb.png.c3c897b2e99ab543f13f2ea74eb0d342.png

Match stats show you we absolutely dominated this game while definitely making the most of our possession. Again, the possession stats are an entirely misleading way to discuss what happens in this match. We gave up 63% possession and 875 passes. And they had one shot on target, which was a header late on (naturally, I rarely concede a goal that is not a cross or set play). By this point, you can tell what is coming. When we look at the heat map for Sevilla, this is what we see.

455301085_sevillapossession.thumb.png.269cb91a9d64347e3b0a53393655d32c.png

Now they did manage to get a small amount of possession in my half, but mostly they were passing the ball around their end of the pitch. Sterile possession, the very definition of it. You can almost count the number of touches they had in my third of the field. This is a wonderful way to defend, I have found. We have built a wall, and you will not cross it. 

1575894024_vssevillapossession.thumb.png.ba3ffa1886919690d3c98e4028425192.png

Here is our heat map. It is again not that pretty, but we have the ball in their half almost as much as we have it in our own. We keep the ball around the edge of their defensive third. You will notice we tend to attack down the flanks. That is part of FM20, and is also helped by the fact we play wider and we are attacking both flanks. 

And now I ask for your advice.

So here are a summary of the results so far..

937879239_resultssummary.thumb.png.ab2637a02a27e063ea6599f05e6921c1.png

Safe to say, this is a successful experiment. Perhaps a little too successful (although I am still second in the league because Real Madrid have only dropped 2 points). This is not to brag, but I want to see how well this works for teams who are not Barcelona. So I want to branch out, and I wondered what you guys would like to see? 

  • Which team would you like to see me try this tactic with? 

Let's be aiming for someone who is not at the top of their league. Preferably with players who can actually play in the positions I use. Let's hear your ideas.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Firstly fantastic thread mate, you do come up with the goods time and time again. I'll definitely be taking elements and ideas from you into my save for sure

And I've got a few ideas:

Arsenal could be interesting, they seem to be ideal for this and aren't quite at the top of the league but could still get there. Ozil in the more attacking midfielder-esque role and Pepe coming in off the one side and Aubameyang off the other with Lacazette up top, or Aubameyang up top and someone else wide. Although they might be too top end. Sides like Wolves and Sheffield United could be good fun too. Similar could be said in the Championship, although there the more top end teams would probably suit best. I think it would be most interesting to see this in a more competitive league (as in the Premier League, Serie A or the Bundesliga), where more sides are looking to beat and match you than in Spain. This would be true of the Championship too, its probably one of my favourite leagues to manage in as its so competitive and almost every side is trying to play their game and take points from you. Sides such as Brentford, Bristol and Blackburn would be good as they seem to suit the shape and generally style quite well and could quite conceivably be anywhere in the middle to top third of the league, oh and obviously I have to recommend Derby too...

It would also be interesting to see the development of the 4-1-4-1 type variation as well, wherever you end up

And once again cheers mate for a great thread!

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, OJ403 said:

Firstly fantastic thread mate, you do come up with the goods time and time again. I'll definitely be taking elements and ideas from you into my save for sure

Cheers. I wanted to try something different and extract a little joy from the game for myself an others. And this is something I rarely see people trying to achieve and misunderstanding how to use possession to win. I will admit I never expected it to work quite this well. 

8 hours ago, OJ403 said:

Arsenal could be interesting, they seem to be ideal for this and aren't quite at the top of the league but could still get there. Ozil in the more attacking midfielder-esque role and Pepe coming in off the one side and Aubameyang off the other with Lacazette up top, or Aubameyang up top and someone else wide

Arsenal could be fun. Although Ozil does not really fit in too well (I can just try to sell him). Maybe as the CM(A), which extracted excellent football from Messi. I used to always do an Arsenal save since they were always underachieving and usually gave you a good transfer budget. 

8 hours ago, OJ403 said:

Sides like Wolves and Sheffield United could be good fun too. Similar could be said in the Championship, although there the more top end teams would probably suit best.

You could pretty much choose any mid table English side I guess for this! I do like Sheffield United this season, they have been a joy to watch and the best story of the Premier league. A sadder story for me than Liverpool not winning the title would be Sheffield United not getting into Europe at the end of the season. And as a Huddersfield fan, I could always try to bring them back from the downward spiral they are in (this also takes Leeds off the board =D). Bristol is the biggest city never to have a team in the Premier League, I think (I could be wrong there?). Which would also be fun, as it is a challenge and an achievement if it worked. I have many things to consider!

8 hours ago, OJ403 said:

It would also be interesting to see the development of the 4-1-4-1 type variation as well, wherever you end up

I have plans for a 4141 variant, and also a 4321 variant. The former is probably similar to set up to this one, I would just have to work out the midfield balanced. I'd expect similar results. The 4321 would demand quite conservative and narrow wide roles, which does not suit Barcelona at all (where you want Dembele and Griezmann attacking the box). This would be the most challenging to set up as well, since I have never used a regular 4321.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Again, great thread and again I am using a slight variation on yours with Hertha Berlin but the goal is exactly the same and it is giving the media in my game fits as I am bottom of the league in possession but went in to the winter break top of the league by a point. What I am seeing a lot of with this is the balance of very good defensive solidity with very basic defenders compared to the more gifted teams and some great attacking play that carves teams up. I remember a couple of years back someone on here started a thread called "4-5-1 The Swiss Army Knife of Tactics" and I can't find a more apt description to be honest.

789038162_leaguetable.PNG.5453fc4cb9f378950cc45140d1522de7.PNG

Capture.thumb.PNG.bf69a356dcd82894805a941bf526df50.PNG

 

For my big game with Bayern who are far superior to me I wanted to play my style but would happily have settled for the draw away from home. Their goal and only CCC came early and from a brain fart from me not dropping my defensive line a tad and after I did did that they were strangled to only 3 shots for the rest of the match and 3 of their six shots were outside of the box. I had serious issues creating myself but were it not for my silliness we would probably have taken all three points.

bayern.thumb.PNG.5df7198e36a4a47f82fe198d60ce0276.PNG

 

For my first foray in to the Champions League I have topped my group conceding 3 goals and having scored 14, 2 of those goals conceded were in a game where I rested most of my team. The results have been the same albeit I only faced Ajax, Porto and Galatasary so none of the really big boys yet. Only one team below me in possession stats made it to Group Stages and that was Krasnodar who were  in the Group of Death.

1399146103_capture3.thumb.PNG.11a2092facfe13ea55bf1e7e242d8557.PNG

Capture.thumb.PNG.f4619186ae9c0081d574d96c0c00fd2d.PNG

 

Edited by Crazy_Ivan
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

I remember a couple of years back someone on here started a thread called "4-5-1 The Swiss Army Knife of Tactics" and I can't find a more apt description to be honest.

Maybe someone wants to read that thread. 

Although, I tried with Liverpool (I know is maybe the better team in the game?) in the last part of the first season and it works great! 

 

Edited by chiani.ignacio
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

it is giving the media in my game fits as I am bottom of the league in possession but went in to the winter break top of the league by a point.

I love the questions you get about "do you feel bad about conceding so much possession? You must be amazed you won after being dominated" or some such statement. To which I want to politely smile and point out that we won 3-0 without conceding a shot. The game sure does not expect you to win comfortably without possession. Although I have to say the AI is very accommodating in this, it does not give up the idea of playing from the back no matter how much it gets them nowhere. This would be a lot less effective if the AI actually were like "yeah you know what long ball over that stupidly high press and to hell with possession". 

I cannot even think who this style would represent in real life. 

4 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

I remember a couple of years back someone on here started a thread called "4-5-1 The Swiss Army Knife of Tactics" and I can't find a more apt description to be honest.

That was also the thread that inspired me (and is linked below your post now). My next task is to start using this flexibility a bit more. Right now I have not needed to do anything other than think about how to win, because Barcelona are a bit too good.

4 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

Capture.thumb.PNG.f4619186ae9c0081d574d96c0c00fd2d.PNG

This is a thing of beauty. You must have been delighted with this. That is absolute domination of a game. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, chiani.ignacio said:

Maybe someone wants to read that thread. 

Although, I tried with Liverpool (I know is maybe the better team in the game?) in the last part of the first season and it works great! 

 

Hah man that notification took me down memory lane..... 2014!! How has that happened...5 and a half years ago. I have no idea how you even found that thread but fair play. 

Man i loved that tactic. Every FM since, i try it out early doors in some way. I remember it off by heart - Central CM was an attempt at a "central winger", lots of dribbling, striker always F9 to bring the lines close. 2 other CMs both DLP to drop back and create the staggered 4231 shape. Wide guys were.......hmm i dont think we even had the IW position in the game back then, so WM i guess, but basically the IW before it existed, attacking the box at an angle, and the fullbacks were CWB to take then replace them on the flanks.

It has never worked since, or more likely in recent years i have not been willing to put in the effort. With the new types of roles available on FM now, i assume you could be even more creative and versatile. 

For me, i fell out of love with the tactical side of FM a couple of years ago. I felt like they added way to many options and that it reached the point where i was no longer seeing the effect of things i changed in a a clear way. I also felt like the game became about how could throw together the best random selection of options to try and beat the ME. In about 2016 i posted some feedback on the beta about how i felt the game lacked in a key area - i always felt like i was playing against an algorithm, not another team / manager. Now, dont get me wrong.....its a computer game, i am always playing an algorithm......... :D But what i meant was the game lacked realism in some important ways. Example, lets say i am managing Athletic (I am...) and i have a game against Valencia. I have an injury crisis. My 3 first choice LBs are injured, so i have to play a youth, or a winger out of position. In that situation, Valencia should target that spot in my team. They should overload the right hand side on attack, at least initially. That is just one small example but the game never has any of that realism..... 

Nowdays i play FM like a DoF most of the time. Whack some basic tactics on and rarely watch the games (i refuse to instant result but i just dont look at the FM tab when the match is on. THat is only made worse this year by the ME being absolutely terrible to watch. The times i do watch a match i just cringe throughout at what they have done. Maybe i should watch in 2D or something, but its horrible to watch how chances are created on FM20 for me.

anyways, rant over........ great thread, really nice read, well thought out and good to see you puting the amount of effort and thought into this :)

Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Which team would you like to see me try this tactic with?

Thanks for a great thread!

How far do you think you could take this system with a lower league underdog, for example? I imagine it requires very technical players (sharp passes with players stretched wide and thus little room for error).

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Zemahh said:

How far do you think you could take this system with a lower league underdog, for example? I imagine it requires very technical players (sharp passes with players stretched wide and thus little room for error).

The main place for error would be the very high defensive line if you were playing with weaker players. Giving the ball away could be deadly. Honestly, I have not got that far ahead in my thinking (and I rarely play in the lower leagues).

You would probably just want to mitigate some of the risk inherent here. A lower defensive line (which means the AI will get closer to your goal on average), less possession oriented instructions.You would want to be more direct and have simple plans for scoring. Indeed, one thing I can see working for lower leagues is playing with a standard DL and a lower LOE, drawing a team in and then winning the ball from them as they attack you (it will always be hard to attack a solid 4-5 bank of players) and using a pacy striker and wide players to counter attack. 

You should not read this thread as this is the only way to set up. It puts the building blocks in place for you expand around and play with different ways to set things up. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just an update here. I am currently playing around with the formation using different teams, but I have not really found anything particularly interesting to show with it yet. So I will try to play around with the flexibility side of things now, changing the roles and duties to achieve different types of football for different scenarios. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Just an update here. I am currently playing around with the formation using different teams, but I have not really found anything particularly interesting to show with it yet. So I will try to play around with the flexibility side of things now, changing the roles and duties to achieve different types of football for different scenarios. 

Tried your tactic verbatim in my last game of the season. Not the strongest team to try it against but the result speaks for itself.

Capture.PNG.63fc4d84af5895cbe07be1dca6aa447f.PNG

 

Hertha

hertha.thumb.PNG.89b651fc805fd6292ecba0a8ec89e1c6.PNG

Hannover

Capture.PNG2.thumb.PNG.fc6cc2725eee98f13453fec0edea8d48.PNG

Link to post
Share on other sites

@sporadicsmiles Great thread as always, certainly got me thinking! Recently i've found it pretty challenging to replicate possession-based football in the current ME, but this thread has inspired me to give it another try (well that, and the abundance of time everyone now has :D

One thing this thread highlights for me though, is that the way mentalities work in FM really needs an overhaul. The ability of lesser teams to play on a counter mentality (which sets CBs to more direct passing by default) yet still keep the ball at the back despite an intense press is ludicrous. It's not even as if they're keeping the ball deep to invite the press and play through it (which would be kinda cool), they just never attempt to progress it. Anyway rant over!

With Milan i've opted for a two minor changes so far:

PF-S --> DLF-S as Ibra is far more suited to the role, especially it has age. A Treq is another interesting option, but I fear it may roam too much and not link play in central areas as i'd like. 

I've set the two outer CMs as a CM-D and DLP-S. Main reason for doing so was that I want the playmaker to have a higher mentality than a defend duty would provide, being more aggressive in his passing and maybe even contributing to a few assists. The rest of the team is pretty much the same. 

I am also considering a true 4231 variant modelled after Ajax's 2018/19 campaign, with Ibra in the Tadic role and Paqueta operating as a hybrid 10/SS a la Van de Beek. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

Tried your tactic verbatim in my last game of the season. Not the strongest team to try it against but the result speaks for itself.

Capture.PNG.63fc4d84af5895cbe07be1dca6aa447f.PNG

 

Hertha

hertha.thumb.PNG.89b651fc805fd6292ecba0a8ec89e1c6.PNG

Hannover

Capture.PNG2.thumb.PNG.fc6cc2725eee98f13453fec0edea8d48.PNG

I love it, the perfect example. I really enjoy this play style too.

I do begin to wonder if we are just uncovering a ME flaw here as well. In principle the AI should not be aimlessly keeping the ball for the whole match like this, when they see it does not work. It seems to expose the way AI teams are using play out of defence. I mean, if I was to play my own system I would just have short GK distribution, counter and direct passes into space. Draw in the press, hit the ball through it, have lots of space to run into. The AI does not seem to ever adapt like this. It is why I am surprised it is so successful (since originally I was just trying to make different shapes from a 451), because there are obvious weaknesses I can immediately see. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, jc577 said:

One thing this thread highlights for me though, is that the way mentalities work in FM really needs an overhaul. The ability of lesser teams to play on a counter mentality (which sets CBs to more direct passing by default) yet still keep the ball at the back despite an intense press is ludicrous. It's not even as if they're keeping the ball deep to invite the press and play through it (which would be kinda cool), they just never attempt to progress it. Anyway rant over!

As I just was typing when you added your comment here, I think this tactic is actually exploiting the way AI teams set up and try to play. Which is something that should be looked at and changed in the future. No idea if people responsible for that look in here, but it might be something worth bringing up if anyone does. 

4 minutes ago, jc577 said:

PF-S --> DLF-S as Ibra is far more suited to the role, especially it has age. A Treq is another interesting option, but I fear it may roam too much and not link play in central areas as i'd like. 

The striker role is open from interpretation, as I have not really played with it much. A PF made sense when I was thinking about the style, but I think it is not critical. A Treq may not be the best for the pressing side of things though, and you need high pressure in this tactic, at least a little bit.

 

5 minutes ago, jc577 said:

I've set the two outer CMs as a CM-D and DLP-S. Main reason for doing so was that I want the playmaker to have a higher mentality than a defend duty would provide, being more aggressive in his passing and maybe even contributing to a few assists. The rest of the team is pretty much the same. 

I really am using the CM(A) as the main creative role really. I was playing Messi there as Barcelona, and at the moment Talisca as Guangzhou in a save I am playing in a super league file I created. He is the player who will run through the centre and try to make passes, shoot, score, etc. I love me a good CM(A). Almost always have one if I can. The DLP(D) is then my pivot (or if paired with a CM(D) I have a double pivot). As you say though, no reason you cannot invert those two roles. 

8 minutes ago, jc577 said:

I am also considering a true 4231 variant modelled after Ajax's 2018/19 campaign, with Ibra in the Tadic role and Paqueta operating as a hybrid 10/SS a la Van de Beek. 

You should let everyone know how it goes, if you try it. I am not a pure 4231 person, really. I rarely go for top heavy formations. I am a defensive guy first and foremost, and I never feel quite comfortable with a 4231!

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

As I just was typing when you added your comment here, I think this tactic is actually exploiting the way AI teams set up and try to play. Which is something that should be looked at and changed in the future. No idea if people responsible for that look in here, but it might be something worth bringing up if anyone does. 

Couldn't agree more. 

9 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

The striker role is open from interpretation, as I have not really played with it much. A PF made sense when I was thinking about the style, but I think it is not critical. A Treq may not be the best for the pressing side of things though, and you need high pressure in this tactic, at least a little bit.

Very good point you make here. Although Ibra has 10 for team-work and 7 for work-rate, so he won't do much pressing either way :lol: I do have him as as Treq in a 4231 though, where we might be able to get away with it due to the attacking trident behind him. 

12 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

I really am using the CM(A) as the main creative role really. I was playing Messi there as Barcelona, and at the moment Talisca as Guangzhou in a save I am playing in a super league file I created. He is the player who will run through the centre and try to make passes, shoot, score, etc. I love me a good CM(A). Almost always have one if I can. The DLP(D) is then my pivot (or if paired with a CM(D) I have a double pivot). As you say though, no reason you cannot invert those two roles. 

The CM-A is also one of my favourites roles, both in FM and IRL... I think a lot of people just associate the role with scoring goals (which it does of course) but it can be so much more than that, player dependent of course. Paqueta will be doing his best Messi impression i'm sure, but it doesn't hurt to have another creative player if he's having an off day. 

16 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

You should let everyone know how it goes, if you try it. I am not a pure 4231 person, really. I rarely go for top heavy formations. I am a defensive guy first and foremost, and I never feel quite comfortable with a 4231!

Honestly i've created so many tactics I am not sure which one to use. The 4231 is by far the riskiest, but I have made some tweaks to try and dial it down a bit:

Firstly, i've removed higher tempo, for two reasons. Considering its top-heavy nature, ball distribution is likely to be forward thus we may move the ball quicker as a byproduct of the formation. Also with so many players advanced, losing the ball in transition or in dangerous areas high up the pitch could be detrimental, but playing on positive the tempo is still relatively quick. 

Secondly, the tactic doesn't have any overlaps. Wingbacks on support should be aggressive enough for this formation, only getting into attacking positions high in the opposition's half when possession has been properly consolidated. 

The more I write about it, the more I want to use it :D we shall see!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Rebooting the 451 in Florence 

After reading through this, spurred by the tag of my ancient thread........i decided i would have my first go at proper tactic creation on this FM really. I really detest what they have done to this ME, but it is what is so i will see if i can get some enjoyment out of my old favourite formation. 

The approach of making the 451 into a 4231 has obviously already been done and indeed that is what i did first time round, so this time i was messing around and looking at something entire differnet - my modus operandi here is "attack" - i want to attack teams from deep, whilst using this 451 formation which in theory is defensively solid.  FM will tell you the formation is the shape when defending (it is not really, but more on that later.....) so in theory without the ball, we have lots of cover in midfield, with the ball, well thats when we can get creative. 

I was fiddling a bit with asymetric shapes, and decided to try and create a shape losely based on the old "WW" formation.  Because well, why not......

 

Choosing a team
Ok, back a step, i started a new save and i decided to go with a mid table side. I chose Serie a because i like the league and have not played much in it this year. Mused through a few squads, and decided to go with Fiorentina. I have had fun saves with them in years gone by and they have a relatively interesting squad (even if about half of it is on loan...)

To some extent,  at a club like this, you are going to have to fit a system round the players you have, at least loosely. There is not the budget for a rebuild and with half the squad being on loan, there is little scope to move people out.  I did have 15m to spend and a bit of wage budget, but i had decided to blow it on one signing. Enough waffle, here is my primary setup:

 

Formation

b36d7c4125a11dc3794d405a5a980d5d.png

 

Now, the obvious way to setup a  WW in attack would be more like this:
 

3ebe1215803c5e470ba7b90341a05d45.png

Indeed, i have that loaded up as a backup tactic, but my reasons for choosing the first option are:

1) The players - Dalbert is my best option at LB and he is not even really a defender, and not suited to playing IWB. He is clearly best suited to going forward like a madman

2) I am a bit of an anarchist, and i wanted to create it using chaos not traditional structure..........

 

Roles / Duties Summary

So the roles / duties i chose:

GK - Nothing fancy here, we are not playing a high line and Dragowksi is not a great looking sweeper keeper

CDs - ALso nothing fancy for now

RB - IWB (D) - Ok the first interesting bit. I do have Pol Lirola who is an excellent attacking RB, but i wanted balance. Dalbert will be our attacker from defence, so Caceres, more a natural CD, will play here as a much more defensive type. I could use him as FB(d) and almost set up a hybrid back 3 / 4 in the way Conte did with Italy but to help me create the WW, I have gone with the IWB. This should position him in front of the centrebacks but the presence of the DLP should offset him nicely. Defend duty is what you need to make an IWB function in that way (in the way Pep created it with Lahm)  - the other duties send him forward beyond the CDM strata and are not what i want

LB - CWB(A) - our marauding Roberto Carlos Lite (very lite....) - I want this guy absolutely bombing forward and creating goals / chances from wide. Not decided between CWB and just WB yet, will see how both play but initially the CWB has not made him drift infield (it adds "roam from position) 

LM - WM(D) - this guy is the final part of my defensive "W" - i originally wanted WP(S) for this role, and its specifically why i bought Bonaventura. Perfect for that role. However my initial games showed WP(S) was going forward a lot, like almost as much as a CM(A) which was odd behaviour, so setting him up as WM(D) for now to get the shape, and maybe add some instructions later

LCM - CM(A) -  one of the base points of my attacking "W" - and like a few others above i love this role and how versatile it can be. Want him to work in tandem with the CWB and create triangles between him and both the F9 and WM. 

CCM - DLP(D) - The central "pivote" and out holding man. In defence he plays in the DM strata, which goes against what SI tell you happens with defending shape / formation, but i like that it happens :) Sits deep, plays simple passes and keeps us secure

RCM  - CAR(S) -  I will be honest, this role was originally envisaged as being what i thought a CAR does - given that the DLP to his left will always drop back, and the W to his right will be advanced, i thought this guy would cover the latteral space to each side (which is litterally how the role is described in game) - he does not. I guess that only works when the game knows there is no one next to him in "formation" terms. That said, the role seems to play quite similar to a CM(s) so i have just left it for now

RM - W(A) - I want this guy attacking high and running lots, stretching the play, delivering crosses. Along with Dalbert, he is the outer point of our "W" and will contribute goals, beacause contrary to what some people think, wingers do get in the box when the ball is on the other flank. IW would forec him infield too early 

ST - F9(S) - partly to suit Ribery, but also because in this formation i feel i want the striker dropping as deep as possible in the early build up phase. also a nod to my original system from 2014.......


Team instructions (is it even called that now?)

724d7e2d69a0079b44f5db1b229099c9.png

Nothing fancy here. In possession i want us passing it short to take advantage of the links the WW gives, and of course hoofing from defence or shooting from miles out are not what i want. Lower tempo is questionable but i like it a bit more controlled to let the transition happen and let the attacking shape form itself.

The "focus down right" paired with "overlap left" is a bit of an experiment to see if it helps create space for Dalbert 

In transition, we will counter and counter press, mainly because we are well set up to have lots of runners for deep - i believe counter attacking is most effective when you have runners, not when you have a top heavy formation with people already stood up field. Counter press is moderate (we dont have a high line) and is just there as again, once we have sent all these runners forward, it makes sense that they are in position to press. 

I have not added anything for out of possession yet, it has not been the focus


Summary

This is not really about me trying to create something which goes a season unbeaten, or wins the league with Fiorentina, its more about having some fun and seeing what i can create with the base formation, by applying different roles, duties and instructions. To that end, please dont try copying it and applying it to your team to "see how it works". Feel free to try aspects of it or comment / discuss. 

Will do another post in a bit with how it has shaped up in the initial games 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Jambo98 said:

After reading through this, spurred by the tag of my ancient thread........i decided i would have my first go at proper tactic creation on this FM really. I really detest what they have done to this ME, but it is what is so i will see if i can get some enjoyment out of my old favourite formation. 

Glad to see you writing! I'm feeling you with the ME, but I too made my peace with it for now, and I may as well try to enjoy the game.

2 hours ago, Jambo98 said:

FM will tell you the formation is the shape when defending (it is not really, but more on that later.....) so in theory without the ball, we have lots of cover in midfield, with the ball, well thats when we can get creative. 

I noticed this too, but I have not really mentioned it yet. The formation I described looks a lot more like a 4231 when we defend than when we attack. Probably a combination of the pressing and roles/duties. Probably worth a little write up as well. 

2 hours ago, Jambo98 said:

I was fiddling a bit with asymetric shapes, and decided to try and create a shape losely based on the old "WW" formation.  Because well, why not......

Nice!

I actually love the way you have set this up. You achieve the shape you intend, but with players moving into positions that they normally you would not expect them to be in. I think this will likely cause mayhem and be a pain in the backside to defend against. One thing I guess to check is that the W(A) is getting into good positions to receive deep crosses from the marauding CWB. Depending on how fast you counter, a F9 may not be a huge presence in the box. 

If you wanted to try something even more funky on the left, you could have a IWB(A) and a MEZ(A). So the wing back is cutting inside and being the bottom right of the W, and the MEZ is the top left. No idea if that would work out nicely, but it would really be blowing up expectations. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

I noticed this too, but I have not really mentioned it yet. The formation I described looks a lot more like a 4231 when we defend than when we attack. Probably a combination of the pressing and roles/duties. Probably worth a little write up as well. 

Yeah its very noticeable in my setup. We absolutely defend as a 4141 and fall into that shape when we do not have possession. Here is the average positions map without the ball from my most recent game:

700c90dc2d9f98c6050a84f5b2a34fed.png

Now average positions i suppose dont tell the entire story, but when they are specifically "without the ball", its a pretty good indication.

Here is an in game "moment" shot showing though our shape as the other team start to attack. Same thing

 

b1fdbd8f54c496bb06ab893a434888a8.png

 

The DLP (78) is dropping off whilst the CM(a), number 8, is pressing, our shape is pretty decent, although why my centrebacks are allowing that attacker to stand in between them, is a subject for another time.....

 

7 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

I actually love the way you have set this up. You achieve the shape you intend, but with players moving into positions that they normally you would not expect them to be in. I think this will likely cause mayhem and be a pain in the backside to defend against. One thing I guess to check is that the W(A) is getting into good positions to receive deep crosses from the marauding CWB. Depending on how fast you counter, a F9 may not be a huge presence in the box. 

If you wanted to try something even more funky on the left, you could have a IWB(A) and a MEZ(A). So the wing back is cutting inside and being the bottom right of the W, and the MEZ is the top left. No idea if that would work out nicely, but it would really be blowing up expectations. 

Thanks, yeah the mayhem was part of the idea, or i suppose if we want to be more professional...... i wanted to be "unpredictable" :) 

 

Yeah thats an interesting concept, and might help resolve a problem i currently have, more on that in the next post. I think youm ean the wing back becomes bottom left of the W though? I do love the MEZ (A) role. I might set up a 3rd system with something like that. (NB - the fact we can only load up / have 3 tactics is another bugbear - pep used i think 23 in his last season at Bayern.......even fifa lets me have 5 ffs!)


My original scratched out idea was actually not he WW at all, i was a bit more........random :D I originally planned for our attacking shape to be like this:

d270f6390a6d3aee30d98107f49899d3.png

 

The W should be a bit further forward, but essentially it would stagger the players across many zones of the pitch. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Does it work (early findings)

hmm......... sort of, kinda, maybe.......let me analyse some. 

First up, we ignore pre-season entirely. it helps get the team familiar of course and improves fitness, but the games are worthless, the team never plays the same in pre-season as they do when the season starts in FM in my experience.

So we jump to our first competitive game, which is a nice easy home tie in the cup against Serie C Ravenna. 

So, about that W W shape............

97c4c52ae25f3015b680a8a41b21cbcc.png

 

Almost..... so the orange is the "defensive W" and in this game actually i was still using the WP(s) on the left of midfield, which explains why he is a tad high, but to be honest, i could live with that shape easily. I dont expect it to be totally symetrical afterall.....

Attacking wise (The blue / purple).......4 out of 5 look like a perfect W. Just that 5th one........id like it close to where the dotted blue line goes. It is, of course, the CWB. So in theory that was always going to be the toughest part if we look at purely average positions,  given his starting position is of course still at fullback. Whilst this map is "with the ball", it of course takes account of positive transitions - the CWB is always going to have to start from deeper when we win the ball. 

For comparison, here is the same map from my 3rd league game, by which time i had made the change to the LM role to be WM(d) 

300055e35bf731fd6742da6ef787da2a.png

Same issue, and interestingly the change of role has made little difference at all to the position ove the LM, which is food for thought. I need to do some more in-depth analysis of the stats from each role at some point. Again though the CWB is actually, on average, barely ahead of the IW(D) on the other side, which is troubling.

Ok, so what about some more analysis on Dalbert, our resident CWB. From the same game as above, lets look at where he makes his passes from:
 

86a3483ae5628bafa4283ec6605e3578.png

Ok so this is not that easy to interpret at first , because i am pretty sure all the dots where he is litterally on the sideline, are him taking throw ins, which i dont care about, and are not a "pass" surely by any definition other than the antiquated FM stats analysis tool. but overall, a good few passes higher up the pitch.

What about where he recieves passes?

92ba598187555a768b0a419137c8c9b9.png

Ok so again, quite a few of them in the opposing half, if not right in behind perhaps.

So is it just a trick of the eye on the graphs? What about in game, what do i see then...........well, yes i am seeing an issue at times. He does attack well at times, particularly when we have the ball with say our left sided defender or or DLP facing to the left, but its wierd......its like he runs forward and hits an invisible wall and just stops. He is really reluctant when we attack at times, to go beyond the LM. Despite the instructions / role / duty :( Here is one freeze frame to try and show what i mean 

6dd2084b0de4a05bd47c9499a0c4e489.png

In this situation, we have worked it down the right hand side and Chiesa is driving into the box, but Dalbert, circled, is staying behind the LM, despite the huge space in front of him he could be attacking. This seems to be happening quite a bit. Its the one aspect of the attacking shape, i am not too pleased about.

Is it having a big impact on how effective he is, well here are his stats from competitive games thus far:

5fe9575d95c205a9c3ffd87a8de769af.png


Ironically, as you can see in the Cagliari game i used for the heatmaps above, he actually had a goal and an assist! He is not involved in anywhere near as many passes, interestingly, as the IWB is on the other side. To some extent that is expected, the IWB becomes an integral part of our possession, but his contributions do compare well to Chiesa on the Right wing. 

For a bit of fun, here are the highlights of the goals he was involved in. Love the build up on the first one, 2nd one also nice example of what he can do.

 

(edit, ok thats not the camera i wanted to use / show.........another aspect of FM which is a bit of a let down, this ability to upload custom highlights!) 

enough waffle for now...........

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jambo98 said:

In this situation, we have worked it down the right hand side and Chiesa is driving into the box, but Dalbert, circled, is staying behind the LM, despite the huge space in front of him he could be attacking. This seems to be happening quite a bit. Its the one aspect of the attacking shape, i am not too pleased about.

Could it have something to do with the overlap instruction on the left? Maybe it encourages him to wait until the ball is on the flank before rushing past. I was never entirely clear on all the things this instruction does. 

Great posts by the way.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Great posts Jambo, one thing I think a lot of people who struggle tactically(and I include myself in that) have is that they don't make use of the tools that we have available to us often enough, if at all. Using the average positions and other analysis tools available have helped me immensely when resolving problems with y tactics.

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

As I just was typing when you added your comment here, I think this tactic is actually exploiting the way AI teams set up and try to play. Which is something that should be looked at and changed in the future. No idea if people responsible for that look in here, but it might be something worth bringing up if anyone does. 

I'd been thinking this whilst reading through the thread. This isn't a comment on your setup, but the AI. 

One of the biggest frustrations I've always had with the ME is the way that any team can suddenly start passing the ball like Guardiola-era Barca - but in their own half, when parking the bus. This is not how teams defend irl and it totally skews stats for possession and passing etc. in game.

Somebody in the past decided to tie passing and vertical position on the pitch (how high or deep the team is) together in this way, so AI defending will end up passing short and safe in their own half. I would say that these should be separated - most teams try to keep possession in the opponents half, but the tactical presets to make this happen for the AI also leads to risky passing.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Could it have something to do with the overlap instruction on the left? Maybe it encourages him to wait until the ball is on the flank before rushing past. I was never entirely clear on all the things this instruction does. 

Great posts by the way.

Ah interesting thought, i mean logically it should not relate to that (an overlap instruction which stops someone going forward is just odd.........but i can see how FM logic might do that!)

Let me do some analysis on the next game without that instruction.......

2 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

Great posts Jambo, one thing I think a lot of people who struggle tactically(and I include myself in that) have is that they don't make use of the tools that we have available to us often enough, if at all. Using the average positions and other analysis tools available have helped me immensely when resolving problems with y tactics.

Cheers man, and yeah its defo an underlooked aspect of the game. There is a lot more that SI could do both in term of making those tools easily accessible and also more user friendly and also adding better functionality (For example, overlay options between matches would be a good option). They could also do much more with the data analyst function in the game -what they offer currently in the game is nothing like what a DA would offer IRL. They would be doing some of the work on these tools and providing actual meaningful stuff. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

The CWB Problem - Removing Overlap, to make him overlap.......

Ok, so per the above posts, and as suggested by @sporadicsmiles i decided to try and remove the "overlap left" team instruction to try and get the CWB to be more advanced when we have possession, rather than just have him go when triggered by some specific set of criteria.

How did it go? Well ideally i would use the same match i used above as a base point and compare to one played just now with the instruction changed, but the analysis tool is a bit annoying in that it reverses direction for home / away matches (which makes some level of sense), which means its tought to create an overlay between a home and away game. So i went back and compared my last away game, to the away game i played just now:

Lets look at average positions first:

5b268fef86f4d92366ad9d80017a60ff.png

The top map is from an away match 2 games back, which had the "overlap" instruction, and the bottom one is from the game just played, without it. Now, on first glance, it has not made any difference at all really to the average position. Whilst there are some overall fluctuations, as you would expect given it was a different oppponent, different opposing formation, etc, the LB positioning is almost identical

That actually caught me off guard a bit, because i watched the most recent game in some detail, and i would have sworn it worked - i saw Dalbert flying forward many times, and he contributed to a lovely goal from it (more later), so lets look at passing maps to see if we can see anything else. 

cc0d9efc1b965601a756a6ed7f661ef7.png

Again, top one is from 2 matches back, bottom is from just now (NB - this is not perfect because in the first match, Dalbert was subbed at HT with an injury, which is why the volume looks so different - but im looking at the spread not the totaL)

Ok so in terms of the passes he made, if you can just about manage to visually / manually excluse the throw ins, then you can see there is clearly a bigger cluster in the opposing half, Good signs.

What about passes recieved, well with the same caveats (45mins sample size in the top game):
 

c30790aa96d541b0bf571182fd03ac3b.png

No throw ins to confuse this one - very clear that he is more involved in the final third, so that has to be good news. Perhaps the average positions map is not the best guide (since by definition, it is an "average" not an actual position he took up at key points)

So how about that attacking shape now, in an actual game "moment", lets have a look:

 

a23762c8aa9cb6375618f2e06a2a41cb.png

Good lord my drawing is bad........

That aside, the blue W looks more complete now. This is attacking and Dalbert has just released a cross, and you can see our attacking shape is lovely. The guy out of position to some extent now, is the LM (Ribery here - moved him back to LM after making a sub, just for fun). I had set his role back to WP(s) rather than WM(d) which might explain it. I can also live with that much more, because it adds to our attack if anything! I will keep an eye and mess around with that particularl role / position some more.

Here is a lovely little example of the move that still is taken from. This is the system in action:

be1a4796a7335adee5b84684a5ecc82e.gif

 #5 (DLP - Badelj rotated in for this game) plays it off to Dalbert, who bombs on. Inside the box he finds our CM(a) - Agudelo (subbed on for Castrovilli) who has gone beyond the striker, he then lays it off to that very striker, Cutrone, who is arriving late and slams it home. Poetry in motion, or at least, a nice goal away to Genoa........

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, howard moon said:

Somebody in the past decided to tie passing and vertical position on the pitch (how high or deep the team is) together in this way, so AI defending will end up passing short and safe in their own half. I would say that these should be separated - most teams try to keep possession in the opponents half, but the tactical presets to make this happen for the AI also leads to risky passing.

I tend to agree, because if I have demonstrated anything here it is that short passing in your own half is definitely not safe nor a sound defensive strategy. The issues I see, really, is that players are too happy to go backwards with the ball, ignoring more progressive balls because they fall below some kind of threshold of riskiness. I also think the game gives a high weight to possession to show a team is doing well. So despite getting pounded by my team, the AI thinks it is fine because it has the ball a lot. This is speculation, but I strongly get this impression. Also from press interviews after you win comfortably with 35% possession. Although that is realistic because we put a huge stock in possession in real life. I blame Guardiola, he ruined football (note my tongue is very much in my cheek!)

41 minutes ago, Jambo98 said:

Ok, so per the above posts, and as suggested by @sporadicsmiles i decided to try and remove the "overlap left" team instruction to try and get the CWB to be more advanced when we have possession, rather than just have him go when triggered by some specific set of criteria.

Woo, I had intuition that was right! I only spotted this because I have been playing with the overlap and I noticed my RB would often wait before getting forward. But he was a WB(S) so I would expect him to do that anyway. So I was not sure. This is one of those situations where what a TI does simply is not clear. I can fully understand why people struggle and get frustrated when they first come into the game. The community here should try to make a thread where we discuss what some of the less obvious TIs do, with examples.

43 minutes ago, Jambo98 said:

Now, on first glance, it has not made any difference at all really to the average position.

Average position for an attacking fullback should always be around the half way line, unless you spend all your time attacking. Mostly because he shuttles from defensive line to attacking line and back. Can you get individual player heat maps? That would maybe show a little better where he spends his time. This is one of the reason I prefer to watch and make a judgement myself, because I do not know how the average is made, and there is no standard deviation (I wish there were some indication of that). 

46 minutes ago, Jambo98 said:

be1a4796a7335adee5b84684a5ecc82e.gif

That is a lovely goal. I love the overload on the left. That is so hard for the AI to deal with. Hell, that is hard for anyone to deal with!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Does it work (the results show)

So, apparently the chairman is not interested in pretty pictures, average positions and obscure 1950s Hungarian tactical references........

How is it actually working then? Not too badly, so far:

8607b5869d36b80222ced4bb4467892f.png

7 league games (plus 1 cup) and 6 wins. We conceded only 1 goal in that time which is nice. The goals scored could be better, but actually they would be if Pulgar had not missed pens in BOTH of the 1 - 0 wins (17 for pen taking as well.....) 

Its a small sample size, but 6 clean sheets and 6 wins in a row is pleasing. 2 of those were against very good teams in Roma and Napoli, who would expect to finish above me.

In terms of some more advanced stats, possession is........interesting:
 

956272f8d004ce91bf9a1bfb3f1c924a.png

We are18th in possession.........however, this only re-inforces what some have said in posts above - the ME is deeply flawed here. The top 3 in this table are all bottom half teams, and indeed top of it are SPAL. SPAL have lost all 7 games, and not only that, they have not even scored a goal this season :D The absolute state of that.......

Passing wise, we are 8th in total passess which is ok, we are not overly about possession for the sake of it, but pleasingly, we do top the pass completion % table with 92%, which is a nod to the fact our spacial play is good and passing options are always on. 

That draw in the first match is a lovely example of what is wrong with this game :D Here are a couple of screenshots of it:

c26b669919e3b646beffba72cc529e93.png

Now, listen, fair enough, sometimes a team has 1 shot in a game and wins or draws - that happens in football. We had 13 shots, we were not clinical. But when did you ever see a team have 59% possession and only 1 shot :D The lads at Opta would be at it for hours trying to find that. The heatmaps only make it worse

4ac7ae1374929c0f6124c2c2600117a3.png

Essentially, Udinese set up in a 5122 (3 CB's, wingbacks and a CDM) and just passed it around the back.  My centrebacks totalled 38 passes between them in this match. Udinese centrebacks totalled 297 (that is not a typo....). Utterly baffling stuff.....

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Lovely work again Jambo, Nice to see that it is working as you planned. Some excellent results there!

1 hour ago, Jambo98 said:

Essentially, Udinese set up in a 5122 (3 CB's, wingbacks and a CDM) and just passed it around the back.  My centrebacks totalled 38 passes between them in this match. Udinese centrebacks totalled 297 (that is not a typo....). Utterly baffling stuff.....

The longer this thread goes on the more I am tempted to open a thread in the bugs forum about this. It is not really a bug, per se, but it is something in the ME that is really not working the way it should. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

How is this system working against big teams for you? 

I'm playing with Liverpool, and struggle in some big matches against English teams. They create a lot of chances (me too btw). 

I'm making some tweaks in the midfield to see how I can play these matches. 

A thing I noticed is that de wide roles of the midfield (IW) tends to dribble a lot and run with the ball to often (it's hardcoded). I'm trying with another roles like WM or WP. 

Anyone used a RPM in the midfield?

Edited by chiani.ignacio
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...