Gegenpressing: The Roadmap to German Efficiency

[Justified]

1 minute ago, retrodude09 said:

Excellent post @Justified on how you go about setting up your training based on Gegenpressing. I'm curious as to how you adapt your schedule when you have 2 games per week? 

I keep it about the DNA only. So if I can fit in 2 Trans-Press, a Direct Attacking and a Defend Engage then that's the core DNA done. Only time i wouldn't do this is over Xmas where you have very little rest. I'd just set a match prep depending on opponent for that match because I need to recover as much condition for the players as possible. Again you can do this for any style you want to play. Core DNA training's are quite easy to figure out once you know what attributes are important for it. Counter Attacking would pretty much be a flip of this. Trans-Restrict and Defend Disengage but you'd keep Direct Attacking and Ball Distribution.

[HanziZoloman]

9 hours ago, Justified said:

Edit: Forgot to say about Goalkeeping training, I like to keep this fairly flexible as well. If I'm training the team on Possession training then maybe I want to train him on Distribution as well to keep in line. Or if training physical's he could do One-on-Ones as that includes running. Mostly I keep it on Shot-Stopping but can be handy to chuck in Handling in there from time to time to mix things up.

Thanks much man! I couldn't see the pic but it all makes sense in my head (Can see the pic now!). One last question if you may, where do you put the Goalie training? Thursday late?

Edited April 29, 2020 by HanziZoloman

[Justified]

1 hour ago, HanziZoloman said:

Thanks much man! I couldn't see the pic but it all makes sense in my head (Can see the pic now!). One last question if you may, where do you put the Goalie training? Thursday late?

Default I'd put it on Thursday ES. Most of the time during International Breaks I put it on Wednesday ES because I train physicals on Thurs + Fri so I don't want my first choice to get a silly injury.

[HanziZoloman]

Thanks man! I’m trying to implement your ideas in the Gegenpress stuff from this thread and others. At the moment it is working very good!

 

[sven78]

I wrote in previous post about a Peterborough save where I was just getting banged weekly in Prem, I was going to implement this however when I logged on I got offered Celtic Job...for a change I just took the job as planning on a journeyman type career. 
 

implemented this in the Feb when I took job and instantly had team playing football I anticipated, results werent instant but I put that down to players not quite suited, managed to shuffle team find an XI and just got them over the line to the title. They had a good but aged squad so cashed in on 3 of the main players for huge money..all £20m+. Spent whole summer scouting to plug the gaps, managed to get Pietro Pellegri (£21m) and Kenneh (£22m) plus some good young players.

Next 2 seasons have been incredible, treble first full season and got out a champs league group of Barca, Dortmund and Man City. Current season is heading for another treble and again got out of a tricky champs league group. Most startling stat is Im currently 60 games unbeaten domestically...53 wins 7 draws. 
 

i appreciate its Scotland and Celtic had money when I took over but football on show is brilliant, on the look out now to take my versions of this tactic and either start a new save or look around for a managerless team within a lower european league just to see how it performs. 

Apologies this is a bit long winded but just wanted to provide a little bit of feedback for a brilliant thread. Has helped enormously with my understsnding of the tactic system

[HanziZoloman]

11 hours ago, sven78 said:

Apologies this is a bit long winded but just wanted to provide a little bit of feedback for a brilliant thread. Has helped enormously with my understsnding of the tactic system

Same 4 me! 
had a Scottish save top with Hearts but Celtic is so far away no chance to race 4 title. 

[DocSnyder]

Scotland too here - 8th place with Ross County and they are really hard to manage.

[HanziZoloman]

2 hours ago, DocSnyder said:

Scotland too here - 8th place with Ross County and they are really hard to manage.

Anthony McDonald, Harry Cochrane and Dean Campbell are very nice and cheap prospects. Allan Campbell is Motherwell, he is a terrible fighter but a little more money is needed..

[DocSnyder]

In January I got Ikpeazu from the Hearts - he saved my ass

[HanziZoloman]

2 hours ago, DocSnyder said:

In January I got Ikpeazu from the Hearts - he saved my ass

He‘s great! How do you play him? 
also great is Craig Halkett a defender and good putting set pieces in the net..

[Tcufrog]

@AceAvenger First off, these tactics are great!  Really enjoying them and have now won the Bundesliga 3 years in a row with 1860 and made serious Champions League runs.

Two questions I have:

1. How can I alter the 4-4-2 gegenpressing formation to suit a player who has great winger traits?  He performs well as an IW, but his productivity was much higher as a winger in previous formations.

2. How would you suggest I alter the duties of the two forwards if I have world beaters here?  I find that my PF-S doesn't get as involved in play as I would like and my PF- A is a beast, but often he gets sucked too far back into midfield.  I'd like my PF-A to be more of a standard striker, but don't want to disrupt the continuity of the team with this great tactic.  

[retrodude09]

9 minutes ago, Tcufrog said:

@AceAvenger First off, these tactics are great!  Really enjoying them and have now won the Bundesliga 3 years in a row with 1860 and made serious Champions League runs.

Two questions I have:

1. How can I alter the 4-4-2 gegenpressing formation to suit a player who has great winger traits?  He performs well as an IW, but his productivity was much higher as a winger in previous formations.

2. How would you suggest I alter the duties of the two forwards if I have world beaters here?  I find that my PF-S doesn't get as involved in play as I would like and my PF- A is a beast, but often he gets sucked too far back into midfield.  I'd like my PF-A to be more of a standard striker, but don't want to disrupt the continuity of the team with this great tactic.  

1: Have you tried simply changing the players role to a Winger - Attack?

2: Again, have you tried using any other roles & different combinations? 

[Tcufrog]

1 hour ago, retrodude09 said:

1: Have you tried simply changing the players role to a Winger - Attack?

2: Again, have you tried using any other roles & different combinations? 

1. No because as @AceAvenger said this tactic is meant to defend in compact zones.  I'd like to play a W-S on the right, but I wanted to get the board's thoughts before I tried it.

2. I looked into changing the roles, but the pressing intensity on the other striker roles won't be as high as the PF role, hence why I've been hesitant.

I'm looking to try something out, if even in pre-season, but wanted to get some ideas to make sure I know what to look for.

[HanziZoloman]

2 hours ago, Tcufrog said:

1. No because as @AceAvenger said this tactic is meant to defend in compact zones.  I'd like to play a W-S on the right, but I wanted to get the board's thoughts before I tried it.

2. I looked into changing the roles, but the pressing intensity on the other striker roles won't be as high as the PF role, hence why I've been hesitant.

I'm looking to try something out, if even in pre-season, but wanted to get some ideas to make sure I know what to look for.

There are some more Counter-Press strategies. Check out the the total football threat.

[dekzeh]

This thread has been an amazing read and great help for me. In my current journeyman save I got the Monaco job 3 seasons ago, old squad, needed a complete revamp, but had some base for a gegenpress already. In the first season though I didn't have the time to fix the rest of the squad so I didn't go for it, somehow won the league with a boring 433 mostly due to PSG heavily underperforming and gifting me the title. For the past two seasons though I went deep into the system, and although some players are not yet perfect fits, I've been very happy with the system and how we are playing. Last season we finished 2nd with 89 points, 1 point more than the season before, but 9 points behind a crazy good PSG side that performed to the expectations. Moving on to current season, we are top of the league by Christmas, but barely.

 

The system I've been using is as follow:

PIs

Left WB: Cross From Byline, BWM: Shoot Less Often, Winger: Get Further Forward, Cross From Byline, IW: Get Further Forward, AM: Roam From Position, Take More Risks.

 

I've found getting good compactness to be the key, not only vertically but also horizontally. Attacking narrowly makes the counterpressing much more effective, as the players tend to be close together when we lose the ball.

Differently to the OP tactics, I've opted against over/underlapping, I understand it was used to get the mentalities to align, but I found it tends to slow down the attacks, too often the wide players would hold up the ball or go back to the defensive mids to give the fullbacks time to bomb past them, which worked but was not really what I wanted, I still wanted that vertical compactness though, so I went with Wingbacks and a Winger+Inverted Winger. I originally had two IW's, but I found they were all getting in the same areas and occupying spaces I want my AM to do, moving to a winger considerably improved my AM performances, as they get that much more space. My RB isn't that offensively oriented so it doesn't get in the way of the winger too much, in fact they combine amazingly at times and it gives the winger an option back so it doesn't become that one dimensional, always running down the wings and crossing, I also found that when the WB gets further forward the Wingers moves into the channels, and steps into the box a lot, which is very hard to defend against.

Another option I took to give the AM more space is to move from a PF to an AF. Yes, the AF doesn't press as much, but with the instructions it still presses a lot. What it does however is play quite a bit more forward than the PF, always pushing the defensive line back, and opening up space behind in, at the edge of the box.

The rest of the tactic is pretty straightforward I think. Some frequent tweaks are: Segundo Volante over BWM, RPM over DLP, tweaks to the DL/LOE, occasionally Run At Defense/Shoot on Sight/Hit Early Crosses.

League table as of January:

 

Main issue is breaking down the super stubborn defensive sides, those who sit deep with 10 men. 2 of the 3 draws were against bottom half teams, and the other one against Rennes. Against our title challenger PSG, we did quite well though:

.

 

I'm a bit worried that if we struggle to break down more teams, those 0-0's will end up costing the title, so working on that is my next priority.

[jozza800]

How many goals does your striker get?

[dekzeh]

My strikers all score a fair bit, but the goals are very well distributed, here's the squad sorted by goals scored

My main striker is Rodrigo Varanda, but he had a long injury early in the season and just recently got back to fitness, last year he got 33 goals in 42 (2) games in a similar system.

Luckily Alp  Aydin has overperformed my expectations, he was supposed to be a backup but he played so well and developed so much I'm not even sure I should start Varanda over him right now. 

Elsewhere, it's all mostly standard, with the exception of Todibo, who's just a insane in the air and we make the most out of corners and freekicks. Gelson Martins is my right winger, Perdomo is the backup right winger but was also slotted as a striker in a lot of games due to the Varanda injury. Lázaro is the starting Inverted Winger in the other side. 

Due to the heavy physical requeriments of the tactic and lots of suspensions that add up, rotation is a must and as such I don't usually get the top goalscorers in any competition, but I don't mind that at all.

[HanziZoloman]

Sounds good man, how do you train your players?

[dekzeh]

I don't have any particular training method, in terms of individual training it varies a lot, in terms of team training I really like the more generic training sessions instead of specialized ones as I find they make the players the most complete, which is a good thing for me.

I believe you should be signing players that fit your system anyway and focusing on improving them all around instead of signing any high PA player and trying to mold their attributes to fit the system by using overly specific training schedules. That said, most weeks where I can I try to fit one 'Transition - Press' section, as that hits most of the important attributes I want, but other than that it's all 'Overall' 'Outfield' 'Physical' and 'Tactical' sessions. What I find hard to balance is a good mix of training sessions and match preparation sections, cause Teamwork and Attacking Movement preparation improves match performance by a lot. But ye, that's the general ideal of my team training.

In terms of individual training it varies from player to player, but mostly they either do no position training (keep on 'Playing Position') + a specific focus if they have that specific weakness, OR they do position training and no specific focus if that hits their weaknesses better, OR they do 'Playing Position' + no specific focus if they're injury prone (keep the workload lower). What I never do is position training + focus, as that makes the workload too high for players to play and train. For youngsters it's mostly the same things, except I set them to double intensity whenever they're at 80%+ condition. I also try to change the specific focus every 6 months or so, so I usually set at the start of the section and then after the winter transfer window closes.

A lot of players are developing well, here's Soubervie's development over the last 2 seasons and a half, one in the U19's and the past two in the main team. He was at the club when I arrived and was not the most perfect fit, so I had to work on improving his mentals a lot. He turned 19 only 4 months ago, and is now a good homegrown backup option that still has some potential:

 

Some examples of players I signed, Mitrov, now 19, was signed two seasons ago, spent the first 6 months on the U19's, was loaned once he turned 18 in january, and is now at the club, playing as the backup CB but also training to cover as a BWM, his attributes were already a much better fit to the kind of player I'm looking for, and he developed brilliantly, training most of the time as a BWM, and then recently training his passing with no specific position:

 

The attributes I look for in most players are

Physical: Acceleration, Balance, Natural Fitness, Stamina

Mental: Aggression, Bravery, Antecipation, Concentration, Decisions, Teamwork, Work Rate

Technical: First Touch

Of course you'll really never find a player who has it all, so getting them young and working on the weakness is the way to go, I have some players in my academy I'm really looking forward to develop, for example:

He fits most of the attributes I like, only lacking a bit in the physicals, which should grow with time as he's still so young. Technically I'd also like him to be a bit better defensively, hence I'll be training his Marking/Positioning and Acceleration/Pace, switchings between those every 6 months.

As an example of a player who does not do the 'No Position' + specific focus training, here's Hebert who has insane mentals for his age, he's so young he's still only training part time, I expect his development to explode once he turns 16 and starts training full time. His physicals are lacking all around and as such for the time being he's training as a box to box mid. Once his physicals develop a little more I'll reaccess but he'll probably be training on those for a while, either as a box to box or with shifting focus between Acceleration/Pace, Agility/Balance and Work Rate/Stamina.

 

[AceAvenger]

Sorry guys for going AWOL for over a month, I feel down the rabbit hole that is Age of Empires 2 and Modern Warfare. Now that COD has frustrated me to the point of no return, I think it's time to boot up FM again. I'm so glad to see you guys still kept the discussion going strong about breaking the oppositions spirit by constant harrowing and conquest.

On 09/04/2020 at 08:02, HanziZoloman said:

Of course, I can understand it’s much time. Your idea with the group is great I‘m in. 
I am sorry for your losses against Bayern maybe they knew that Dorsch & co weren’t good enough  

just joking.. congratulations for the silverware. The dfb Pokal and runnersup in the League plus L8 in CL is big. I have not been this far with a lower league club.

Great save, I have learnt much! You played mostly the 4411 formation? 

 

I have linked a picture of a 'Härtefall' it means I am not sure to anew the contract, because mentally he is one of the best but technically well not. What do you think as it is your developed system.

 

edit: during end of the season many players decreased in their ability. Did you suffer this too?

I mostly did use the 4411 with my Heidenheim save but I went for the 442 version more often once I sign Jan Hurtado and had 2 good strikers.

On 10/04/2020 at 18:05, uroszila said:

A very good read indeed. Thanks, @AceAvenger for this, its very inspirational.

I thought a bit about this and we could make a really good challenge from this one. For example:

1. You need to choose a team in 3. Liga or 2. Bundesliga
2. You need to use your own tactic (not the one posted in this topic) but with the gegenpress principles mentioned in the opening posts
3. You have 7 seasons (or 5 seasons if you start in 2. Bundesliga) to win as many trophies as you can
4. To add a little bit pinch of the salt - you are only allowed to sign players with attribute level at least 12 on the 7 most important attributes for the gegenpress (Aggression, Anticipation, Determination, Teamwork, Work rate, Acceleration, Stamina)

Would anyone be interested in this?

I'm glad you found it inspirational! That sounds like a very interesting offer, maybe we can compare our progress as we go along. I've been inspired myself to give Excel Manager a try though after reading @_Ben_'s amazing career at CD Guadalajara, so I might take a lot longer to get through the seasons.

On 16/04/2020 at 17:36, Pavi said:

Take a bow @AceAvenger. The OG and the whole thread are excellent quality and food for thoughts!

I have been implementing a similar philosophy and tactical approach in my current save with Mainz. Have been using a 442 and a 4411 during my three seasons in charge so far. But thanks to tweaks inspired by your tactic, this year (3rd season) we managed to be consistent and grabbed a UCL spot.

As you, I also take advantage of relegated teams or the AI not granting playing time to young talent who becomes available, so my squad is young but definitely talented. This is my main 442, some slight modification to yours, but I really have to thank you for the inputs and the insight. I have also started to take much more attention to certain attributes when recruiting and am excited to use this approach for the following seasons.

 

 

 

Phenomenal stuff! It's amazing what you did later on in the Champions League aswell, taking so many formidable scalps.

On 23/04/2020 at 16:29, Djuicer said:

Remove the overlap right/left TI. You dont want players holding on to the ball, potentially stalling the attack.

 

EDIT: Its a trade off though. Removing it decreases compactness down the flanks. Which you want for the pressing game.

I actually never considered this, what I though is that it just decreases the wingers mentality. This would definitely mean he would be more cautious on the ball, hence more likely to hold it up, but I had the idea that if his base mentality (Individual+Team) was high enough, even after the decrease the wingers mentality would still be high enough to be adventurous with the ball. If this TI does something additionally, other than just decrease the mentality, such as makes the winger hold up the ball, like the hold up ball PI, then that would definitely be undesirable.

I will definitely experiment with this.

On 28/04/2020 at 20:35, smithy20 said:

@AceAvenger  Is there any PI you like ti implement and use if any?

The only PIs I set were for the AMC, which was dribble more and move into channels, if I recall correctly.

On 18/05/2020 at 19:35, Tcufrog said:

@AceAvenger First off, these tactics are great!  Really enjoying them and have now won the Bundesliga 3 years in a row with 1860 and made serious Champions League runs.

Two questions I have:

1. How can I alter the 4-4-2 gegenpressing formation to suit a player who has great winger traits?  He performs well as an IW, but his productivity was much higher as a winger in previous formations.

2. How would you suggest I alter the duties of the two forwards if I have world beaters here?  I find that my PF-S doesn't get as involved in play as I would like and my PF- A is a beast, but often he gets sucked too far back into midfield.  I'd like my PF-A to be more of a standard striker, but don't want to disrupt the continuity of the team with this great tactic.  

Definitely give W(a) a try, it'll reduce horizontal compactness, but if your players perform better why not. You could even try WM(a) and put the PIs that would make the role the same as a winger, minus stay wider, or even DW(s) but remove looks for overlap and select the focus play down left/right TIs to increase their mentality.

___

As for the future, I've decided to go for a career with TSV 1860 Munich, with a focus on youth development and an aim to develop a conveyor belt of Gegenpressing machines. The goal is to be like the Red Bull empire, constantly unearthing gems from around the world and having a distinct footballing identity. Tactically, I'll be focusing on the managerial wunderkind that is Julian Nagelsmann, as well as looking at the revival Bayern are having under Hansi Flick. 

[Tcufrog]

1 hour ago, AceAvenger said:

Sorry guys for going AWOL for over a month, I feel down the rabbit hole that is Age of Empires 2 and Modern Warfare. Now that COD has frustrated me to the point of no return, I think it's time to boot up FM again. I'm so glad to see you guys still kept the discussion going strong about breaking the oppositions spirit by constant harrowing and conquest.

I mostly did use the 4411 with my Heidenheim save but I went for the 442 version more often once I sign Jan Hurtado and had 2 good strikers.

I'm glad you found it inspirational! That sounds like a very interesting offer, maybe we can compare our progress as we go along. I've been inspired myself to give Excel Manager a try though after reading @_Ben_'s amazing career at CD Guadalajara, so I might take a lot longer to get through the seasons.

Phenomenal stuff! It's amazing what you did later on in the Champions League aswell, taking so many formidable scalps.

I actually never considered this, what I though is that it just decreases the wingers mentality. This would definitely mean he would be more cautious on the ball, hence more likely to hold it up, but I had the idea that if his base mentality (Individual+Team) was high enough, even after the decrease the wingers mentality would still be high enough to be adventurous with the ball. If this TI does something additionally, other than just decrease the mentality, such as makes the winger hold up the ball, like the hold up ball PI, then that would definitely be undesirable.

I will definitely experiment with this.

The only PIs I set were for the AMC, which was dribble more and move into channels, if I recall correctly.

Definitely give W(a) a try, it'll reduce horizontal compactness, but if your players perform better why not. You could even try WM(a) and put the PIs that would make the role the same as a winger, minus stay wider, or even DW(s) but remove looks for overlap and select the focus play down left/right TIs to increase their mentality.

___

As for the future, I've decided to go for a career with TSV 1860 Munich, with a focus on youth development and an aim to develop a conveyor belt of Gegenpressing machines. The goal is to be like the Red Bull empire, constantly unearthing gems from around the world and having a distinct footballing identity. Tactically, I'll be focusing on the managerial wunderkind that is Julian Nagelsmann, as well as looking at the revival Bayern are having under Hansi Flick. 

@AceAvenger Great idea to get started with 1860, they're a fun team and I've used them for years now.  Already looking forward to your updates!  I just finished my 2030-2031 season, won the Bundesliga for the third time in a row and my second German Cup.  Finished as runners up in the Champions league last year after getting smashed by Chelsea 3-0, and got knocked out by Barca this year in the semis.  Overall very happy with your tactic, just now trying to tweak a bit to better fit my squad.

I'm reading the total football forums trying to get some ideas for my next season.  I really like the idea of an IWB creating more action in midfield to then unlock the opposite side of the formation.  For example, I'm thinking I can ditch the PF-S and play a DM-S in the DMC position, a MEZ- A or S in the LCM position, and a RPM -S in the RCM position.  Just not sure if I want an IW-S or W-S on the right side.  I want to stay compact on the right to open up the left.

 

 

[HanziZoloman]

Great Ace welcome back! Looking forward to your new ideas

[karanhsingh]

On 20/05/2020 at 19:27, AceAvenger said:

As for the future, I've decided to go for a career with TSV 1860 Munich, with a focus on youth development and an aim to develop a conveyor belt of Gegenpressing machines. The goal is to be like the Red Bull empire, constantly unearthing gems from around the world and having a distinct footballing identity. Tactically, I'll be focusing on the managerial wunderkind that is Julian Nagelsmann, as well as looking at the revival Bayern are having under Hansi Flick. 

Fantastic thread, I just went through it. Did you give this a go then?

[Tcufrog]

@AceAvenger Any update yet on your new 1860 save?  Very interested to hear how you're coming along.

I got interested in Pep's total football and messed around with that, but the results were nothing close to the gegenpress you built.  The goal-scoring potential with the 4-4-2 you created is insane - definitely happy with it and will be going back to it now after I've won 4 straight Bundesliga titles.  Now I just need to win he CL.  I finally have the players to do it (I think).

I have some great CB's coming through that have excellent BPD traits.  Might get creative and try 2 BPDs...

[HanziZoloman]

@dekzeh Sorry I haven‘t noticed your reply. Thank you, your training looks really good and I feel inspired, will try it out. You describe it very precise and that is what I needed, many questions are answered. 
I still have a Gegenpress focus but I change formation every game as I am trying to implement the approach from the Tactic Gymnastic Thread.

before I had two formations and usually struggled against the Glasgow Clubs (playing with Hearts) and against the parked busses. My players don’t have the individual quality, hearts were relegated in real life. With the approach adapting to opponents strategy I am more successful and can dominate games even against rangers. Now I have to implement training, trying to prepare for the match with specific training in the second part of the week.

@AceAvenger yeah! How are you right now?

Edited June 20, 2020 by HanziZoloman

[AceAvenger]

Football with wings

If you ask a German football fan which entity is despised the most is Germany, he will probably tell you it’s Dietmar Hopp, the co-founder of software giants SAP and financier of TSG 1899 Hoffenheim, but a very close second would be RasenBallsport Leipzig.

The thing they have in common, apart from them vitriol they get from fans all across Germany, is a man. That man is Ralf Rangnick. As mentioned previously, he was one of the first coaches to use the doctrine of ball-oriented pressing in Germany.

Leipzig before Rangnick was a very different beast. Matthias Kießling, a blogger who has followed RB Leipzig since 2010 on his website Rotebrauseblogger.de recounts a tale of mismanagement before Rangnick was in charge. “Until Ralf Rangnick took over in 2012, management had no strategy and was pretty much dependent on [Red Bull CEO] Dietrich Mateschitz’s mood.”

“The club signed tons of former Bundesliga and second division players, who were over-the-hill, and were paying them as if they were still playing [up there] without getting the appropriate performance in return.” Kießling says. “All those mistakes were over when Ralf Rangnick came in. He implemented a clear philosophy at both Salzburg and Leipzig, hired capable staff, and made sure that Mateschitz’s influence on day-to-day business went down to close to zero.”

References:

1. https://thesefootballtimes.co/2019/03/06/the-money-before-the-fame-rb-leipzigs-troubled-journey-to-the-top/

Caffeine-Induced Madness (On a Football Pitch)

Rangnick may not have the most illustrious career as a coach, with no major honors to his name except the Pokal with Schalke, but his effect on German football is far reaching. The most telling sign of his influence is the number of coaches currently in the Bundesliga and abroad who were under his tutelage. The list is extensive, with coaches like Marco Rose and Adi Hütter at home in Germany, Thomas Tuchel in France and Ralph Hasenhüttl in England, with his most apt pupil, a man many of you know very well, Julian Nagelsmann, who was with him at Hoffenheim and now succeeded him at Leipzig.

Here I will be focusing on Nagelsmann’s current rein at Leipzig, which borrows heavily from what Rangnick was doing before him and also adding his own unique twist.

Pressing

Just as they were under Rangnick, Nagelsmann’s Leipzig are pressing machines. While they only rank 4^th in overall pressures in the Bundesliga according to FBRef, when adjusted for possession they rank first comfortably. The key to their strategy comes from their front four players, who press the ball as soon as the ball is lost. One of their central midfielders, usually the human Duracell bunny Laimer, goes to join in the pressing action while his partner holds his position and man marks to prevent a pass to the closest opposition player to him.

Attacking Build-Up Play

Nagelsmann brought a more cultured approach to build up play to Leipzig’s game. The use a basic, but effective positional play where the center-back will pass it to a full-back who has moved wide, and then the full-back will play the ball to the winger who has moved narrow who can then lay it off to an oncoming central midfielder. With the advancing full-backs wide and indented wingers in the half space, there is distribution of the team is varied enough so that the attack does not become one dimensional. Leipzig still play a vertical game, when looking at the total progressive distance (distance towards goal) of their passes as a faction of the total distance of their passes, RB Leipzig have the 3^rd highest value of all teams with an average possession of greater that 50%.

Counter-attacking

Upfront, RB Leipzig usually play with a hold-up player to aim at to bring it the advancing midfielders or to release ‘Turbo’ Timo Werner. This can be either Poulson with his physicality or Schick with his technical ability. Their defensive shape adds to this as they line up with a 4-4-1-1 defensively with Schick or Poulson in the no. 10 role. When they win the ball back, they usually look for one of them.

This also brings up a facet of their game where they look for the ‘up, back, through’ passage of play to initiate their attack, where Leipzig play the ball up to an advanced player with his back to goal, who lays it off to an on rushing player facing goal to play it through to the other attackers who have rushed ahead.

Translating that into FM

RDF on FMScout made an amazing recreation of Nagelsmann at Leipzig on the FMScout YouTube channel. He beat me to the punch (serves me right to take 2 months write up the tactic) but I learnt something very valuable from his recreation.

Formations

For this recreation I went with 4 formations:

4-2-2-2 DM

4-3-1-2

5-2-1-2 WB

5-1-2-2 WB DM

The opposition’s formation and style dictate which formation I use, as well as their stature. If I’m playing against a possession focused team that use a 4-1-2-3 (i.e. Bayern or Leverkusen) I use the 4-3-1-2 with specific player instructions, which will become clear later. If I’m playing against a 4-4-2, I use one of the 5 at the back formations, to have an extra man in central defense and an creative player either in front or behind the midfield line. Against a 4-3-1-2 I use the 5-1-2-2 WB DM, again for the extra defender and to have a DM to nullify their AM. Against everything else I use the 4-2-2-2 DM.

This is what I do, based on my flawed logic, so if you find yourself going for a different match plan, by all means go for it.

Team Instructions

Let’s recap what we want to achieve:

1.  Smart, but intense, pressing
2. A vertical form of positional play
3. Swift counter-attacks with a focal point

For the first point, the pressing system has changed. The TIs were set to:

• Out of Possession
  • Defend Narrower
  • Much Higher Defensive Line
  • Much Higher LOE
  • Use Tighter Marking
  • Use Offside Trap
• In Transition:
  • Counter-Press

I kept the D-Line and LOE instructions but kept the Pressing Intensity to the default level. How come? Well I opted to use split-block pressing, meaning I will use individual Close Down More PIs on my 4-5 most advanced players, encouraging press the ball more urgently, leaving the rest to preserve their defensive positions. This allows for more defensive solidity, without sacrificing our pressing potency.

Also, with the Positive mentality, the default Pressing Intensity is set to Slightly More Urgent anyway, so the rest won’t be exactly having afternoon tea. @Experienced Defender has a fantastic thread of how to set up your side defensively and I definitely recommend everyone to read it.

The offside trap also remains which fits in well with out high defensive line, and Defend Narrower keeps us compact when we do not have the ball. Compactness is key, as we don’t want the other team to play through our middle, forcing the to play wide where we can use the touchline as an extra defender.

NB: The Use Tighter Marking TI is used only if your team includes players that have good Marking and, more importantly, are quick. The TI will help you win balls back quicker as your players will be better positioned to do so, but if they aren’t fast enough, being tighter to your opponents will mean that there is a greater risk of players losing markers due to their pace.

To achieve the second point, the style of play of the ball, I went for the following:

• Positive mentality
• In possession:
  • Play out of Defense
  • Focus Play Through Middle
  • Higher Tempo
• In Transition:
  • Distribute to Center-backs

The Positive mentality with a Higher Tempo and the default Passing Directness will allow my team to play the vertical style of football, while not playing direct balls to force turnovers like a team coached by Rangnick would have done.

Play out of Defense and Distribute to Center-backs will allow my team to have a more controlled build-up play when we have the at goal-kicks but will have our full-backs free to support from more advanced positions. @Rashidi has an amazing video on the different set-ups you can use for your goal-kicks.

NB: When the 4-2-2-2 DM is used, the following instructions were also used:

• In possession:
  • Overlap Left
  • Overlap Right
  • Much Narrower

The 4-2-2-2 DM specific instruction are there to provide the ‘box’ in midfield, with the very narrow width (which is what I took from RDF’s interpretation) while also ensuring the uniformity of the midfield individual mentalities with the Looks for Overlap TI. Here is a great guide to individual mentalities and what they do in the game.

Achieving the third point is simple:

• In possession:
  • Pass into Space
• In Transition:
  •  Counter

Easy enough, the Higher Tempo and Positive mentality will factor into our counter-attacking set-up. The focal point will be achieved with the player roles, which will be clarified later on.

Team style w/4-2-2-2 DM:

Team style w/other formations:

I also developed a style which is used when you are the underdog, and is mostly used with the 4-3-1-2 and the 5-1-2-2 WB DM.

• Cautious mentality
• In possession:
  • Play out of Defense
  • Pass into Space
  • Higher Tempo
• In Transition:
  • Distribute to Center-backs
  • Counter
  • Counter-press
• Out of possession:
  • Defend Narrower
  • More Urgent Pressing
  • Use Tighter Marking

The though process behind this is:

• Cautious mentality to ensure we’re not giving the ball away needlessly, inviting pressure on us
• The rest of the Tis are there to ensure we’re still threatening on the counter, with Pass into Space, Higher Tempo and Counter.
• The D-Line and LOE are lowered to the default setting to set ourselves up in a medium block, with an increase in Pressing Intensity to offset the drop due to our lower mentality. This is to counter rapid attackers, to deny them space to run in behind. More importantly, we allow the opposition to have the ball in their defense, as usually they will be good enough to break our press, but we do not surrender the middle. We want as many players in the middle so they do not control the game.
• Note the lack of overlapping fullbacks, even with the 4-2-2-2 DM. This is so that I don’t overcommit and get caught out in defense.

NB: I usually just start the game with this mentality, if all is going well and the shot count is similar, I switch to the Positive team style, otherwise I tinker with the formation until I nullify the opposition. I also switch to this to grind out a lead, but only if the other team are getting lots of shots later in the game. If the other team is not offering a lot in attack, I usually stick with the Positive team style. If, however, I'm in the lead and the other team bring on a fresh striker who is quick, I always switch to the Cautious team style, to deny him that space to run into.

Here is a great thread on mentality and game plans that explain how to approach a match.

Team Style:

References:

1. https://statsbomb.com/2020/01/examining-rb-leipzigs-style/
2. https://statsbomb.com/2019/10/the-incredible-tactical-rb-leipzig-machine-part-one-a-uniquely-versatile-attack/

Edited July 4, 2020 by AceAvenger

[AceAvenger]

Boots on the Pitch

In this post I’ll be covering the player roles and specific Player Instructions (PI) that I use. Let’s start from the top, our attacking duo.

Strikers

In my RB Leipzig save (I went for the best team for this tactic to see if it can cut it at the top), I had 3 strikers to choose from. Timo Werner, Yussuf Poulson and Patrick Schick.

For “Turbo” Timo, I went for Pressing Forward (Attack) because it has all the things I want from the spearhead of the attack, such as Get Further Forward and Moves Into Channels (much like the Advanced Forward), but it also has Close Down More and Tackle Harder hardcoded, which is what I want from my ‘front 5’.

When it came to who supported him, I picked roles that suited the player. For Yussuf Poulson, the combative, ultra-physical machine, I went for Pressing Forward (Support). It had the PI that I need for the focal point, Holds Up Ball. The other hardcoded PIs were Close Down More and Tackle Harder, which is, again, what I want.

When it came to Schick, I set as Complete Forward (Support) which has Take More Risk, Hold Up Ball, Move into Channels, Dribble More and Roam from Position. The Hold Up Ball PI is there, but married to PIs that make use of his better technical ability.

The jury is still out on Roam from Position, I didn’t try whether having him set as a Deep-Lying Forward (Support) with Dribble More selected would be more effective, especially against sides that leave space to counter. In that case, he will most definitely be the focal point, as he will be positioned centrally and not floating about the place. Roams from Position would be more useful if I’m up against a parked bus, with Schick trying to find pockets of space to drag out defenders.

Unfortunately, Close Down More can’t be selected, so it was a case of sacrificing the effectiveness of the press to get the best out of Schick’s abilities. In terms of performances, Poulson did better; the Dane won us possession further up the pitch the most which lead to a lot of goals, which is invaluable. However, I do like what Schick has to offer with the ball at his feet, so I feel it’s a sacrifice worth making.

I didn’t select Tackle Harder either, truth be told. The same is true for all the other players in the pressing block. This was actually an oversight, as Tackle Harder would help them win the ball back more. However, maybe with their poorer Tackling, this would contribute to more fouls than more ball recoveries, so more ‘research’ should be done into this.

Midfielders

Here is where stuff gets interesting, especially when it comes to the diamond (4-3-1-2). I’ll start with the two most important roles there, the Attacking Midfielder (Attack) and the Deep-Lying Playmaker (Support).

When it comes to the AM(A), the role adds literally nothing in attack. Every since my first tactic (4-4-1-1 2DM), I’ve struggled getting attacking output from the attacking midfielder. I’ve tried the AM(A), Shadow Striker and Advanced Playmaker (Attack) to no avail. The only thing that worked for me is when I played Dani Olmo instead of Emile Forsberg, who is the better player in the game anyway so it makes sense he’ll play better. What this role has to offer though is when you’re defending.

I set it to man-mark a specific player, the DMC of the other team in a 4-1-2-3, which nullifies him to the best of the team’s ability, hampering the oppositions ability to play out of defense. I also set him to Close Down More to be a part of the pressing block. It dawns on me as I write this as they are quite contradictory instructions, as how can he press when he’s specifically man-marking a player. Hey, it works, if you want to be tactically sound, I’d remove the close down more and leave the other players to press.

As for the DLP(S), he’s also set to man-mark, but one of the two MCs in the 4-1-2-3, specifically the one set as a playmaker. This is most effective if the opposition player is an AP, as he won’t drop back as much and drag your player out of position.

But why set the DLP to man-mark in the first place, why can’t you set one of the other MCs to man-mark, especially the one on the side of the opposition’s playmaker. Well, when it comes to man-marking in FM, the marker doesn’t give much thought to what is happening around him and just marks the player he is instructed to do so. In a narrow formation (without anyone wide other than the fullbacks), this means if you set one of the outer MCs to man-mark, they won’t help the fullback on his side defend, which means he can be doubled-up on easily with the oppositions advancing fullback. That is no bueno, it’ll leave you open to attacks on the wing.

Food for thought: If your AM and DLP are particularly good markers, setting the Mark Tighter PI would be a wise move.

Another important point is the wingers in the 4-2-2-2 DM, They both have Sit Narrower to achieve that box I was talking about. Whether they are set to Inverted Winger or Wide Midfielder is dependent on their stronger foot. If they’re ‘on the wrong side’, i.e. their stronger foot is on the inside, then I went for IW(A), which has Cuts Inside hardcoded, along with Dribble More and Gets Further Forward. If they’re on the ‘right side’, i.e. their stronger foot is on the outside, then I went for WM(A), with Gets Further Forward and the option of Dribble More if they are good dribblers, but in Marcel Sabitzer’s case, he was not, so it wasn’t picked. Close Down More was also picked.

 

The Box

In the case of the double pivot in the 4-2-2-2 DM, the Segundo Volante was instructed to Close Down More and Get Further Forward, to be a part of the pressing block and provide line-breaking runs respectively and the Deep-Lying Playmaker was set to default.

The best way to understand out roles work together is to read this guide written but @llama3, which will be the best thing you’ll read today, far better than this.

For clarity, the following positions in each formation are set to Close Down More:

Defenders

For the wing-backs, the choice between Complete Wing-Back and Wing-Back is dependent on how good the player is at dribbling. If he is good at dribbling, have him as a CWB, as it has dribble more hardcoded; if he isn’t a good dribbler, have him set as Wing-Back, but with Stay Wider selected.

  

NB: Having Stay Wider selected on for WB is only important for the 4-2-2-2 DM, as the Team Width is very narrow, you want your fullbacks to provide the width. In the other formations, the Team Width varies from Standard to Fairly Wide depending on the Mentality, so it is not important to select Stay Wider, but you could do so if you please.

The selection of their Duties is formation specific. For the 4-2-2-2 DM, they’re both set to Support but with the Looks for Overlap TI will increase their individual mentality to Attacking. In the 4-3-1-2 and the 5-1-2-2 WB DM, the fullback/wingback with the Attack duty is paired with a Carrilero on his side on Support to cover his forward runs. The other fullback/wingback is on support to cover for the Mezzala’s attacking runs. The key thing here is balance.

 

As for your central defenders, the roles are self-explanatory, the important thing is not to have any of them on Cover duty. This will make the offside trap ineffective as they won’t be keeping a unified line with one defender dropping off.

Edited July 3, 2020 by AceAvenger

[Irn Rvd]

How did you get on with this playing style in your season? I am very interested in how you got on in Europe. This post is very well done. Thank you!! 

[mc22]

Awesome thread, need the patience with my squad to try and get this to work because I love the Leipzig playing philosophy. How would you set it up to be more like how they played under Hassenhutl? Their directness was truly wonderful to watch, and now he’s doing it at Southampton again. 

[HanziZoloman]

Just awesome!! 
so much work put into it. 

[xHoffefan]

I wonder if there will be an update / tweaks for fm21 / the improved match engine

 

really enjoyed the two tactics variants on your first post in fm 20

[lilljons]

i 2nd that! Would love your thoughts on fm21.

[DocSnyder]

It´s still working great in FM21 - used the 4-4-1-1 2DM.

[Riziger]

Thought I'd keep this thread alive. Check in with my progress on FM21 and share my current tactic. Keep in mind I'm playing at a rather low level so might just be my players being better than the rest (although media prediction was 2nd in the league). This is also the first time in a long time doing an invincible season.

I drew the first game of the season then won every game since.

XG

XGA

Most games were complete domination with the opposition pinned in their own half.

I used 1 tactic all the way through (since the middle of the previous season) - a Nagelsman style 4-2-2-2. Wanting to keep the 'box' shape and getting the wingers into the channels/half spaces in front of the DMs. In the attacking transitions, it often becomes a 2-2-6. The wing backs providing the width, and often the crosses to the far post for the IW or WM to tap in. The 2 DMs don't often get high ratings but that's fine, their job is simple. Keep the shape and recycle play / provide an outlet for the defence. Although we smothered most teams, I accepted that to get the high compression I could live with conceding from balls over the top - I also made this decision because in this league, jumping reach for my CBs was appalling and I opted to have fast CBs instead.

The only thing I messed with was the left striker - the PF(s) worked well until teams started to realise how good we were and just sat back. Then I moved between CF(S) or DLF(S/A) this could also be because I preferred to use my academy products at the striker positions and all of them were between 16-19. Not very consistent.:

PIs:

LB/RB - stay wider.

LM/RM - roam, stay narrow.

VOL - get further forward.

Also keep in mind with the players I assembled them to specifically play this style of football. My player DNA in order of importance: Determination / Work Rate / Decisions / Team Work / Natural Fitness / Anticipation / Acceleration / OTB. I didn't mind 'carrying' one or two players, like one of the wingers or one striker but the spine of the team needs to have these attributes.

I think I have taken this style and this team to the limit now. I could be wrong, but this high press high tempo run and gun 'punch you in the face' heavy-metal style seems to work best when you are overachieving. Once the game recognises your team as the obvious favourite and every scout report says opposition will play cautious, there becomes less space to run into and finesse becomes more important.

[vogado86]

Today I started a new game with Benfica. I want to get the team to play in the Gegenpress style in 4-3-3. I made only three changes to the pre-defined style. GK (D), the RPM instead of Carrilero and I passed the ball to the center baks. Any suggestions on how to improve the system?

[frukox]

15 minutes ago, vogado86 said:

Today I started a new game with Benfica. I want to get the team to play in the Gegenpress style in 4-3-3. I made only three changes to the pre-defined style. GK (D), the RPM instead of Carrilero and I passed the ball to the center baks. Any suggestions on how to improve the system?

Opening your own thread is your best bet if you are looking for second opinions for your tactic.

[vogado86]

I don't wanna open a new thread becausa this one talks about gegenpress.

[frukox]

1 minute ago, vogado86 said:

I don't wanna open a new thread becausa this one talks about gegenpress.

However, this thread is about a number of gegenpress systems people use in their own games and they don't generally seek advice and just show how they fare with their current tactics using illustrations, explanations and so forth.

[vogado86]

51 minutes ago, frukox said:

However, this thread is about a number of gegenpress systems people use in their own games and they don't generally seek advice and just show how they fare with their current tactics using illustrations, explanations and so forth.

Ok ok

[frukox]

43 minutes ago, vogado86 said:

Ok ok

I didn't want to cause any offence, just a friendly reminder of how these forums work

Edited January 23, 2021 by frukox

[vogado86]

1 hour ago, frukox said:

I didn't want to cause any offence, just a friendly reminder of how these forums work

I know  Dont worry hehe

 

[poobington]

Bumping this as recently I have been enamoured with Ralk Rangnick. Has anyone had any success in implementing a 442 or 424? 

[Robson 07]

On 10/05/2021 at 17:11, poobington said:

Bumping this as recently I have been enamoured with Ralk Rangnick. Has anyone had any success in implementing a 442 or 424? 

Thanks as I'd totally missed this and the first couple of posts alone are brilliant.

[josel15]

On 10/05/2021 at 17:11, poobington said:

Bumping this as recently I have been enamoured with Ralk Rangnick. Has anyone had any success in implementing a 442 or 424? 

Yes, this season I've played a lot with a 4-4-2 (with two DM's instead of CM's) and it's been going well

[Jean0987654321]

On 10/05/2021 at 12:11, poobington said:

Bumping this as recently I have been enamoured with Ralk Rangnick. Has anyone had any success in implementing a 442 or 424? 

Yep. With Depor. Got them only to the playoffs tho but I was undeated in the first season there with barely any money spent