Help with deep 4-2-3-1 inspired by Benitez

[Akselito]

I’m in my third PL season with Sunderland and struggling to take the next step up from fighting for survival. I’m predicted at an 18^th place, and currently I’m exactly in this position after 20 games. Due to two tough seasons prior to this one, I decided to go for a new tactic this season inspired by Rafa Benitez’s Valencia side that won the La Liga in 02’ and 04’, but I guess Benitez have used the same principles in the other clubs he has managed as well in case some of you don’t know the Valencia side that won the La Liga. So, the Rafa inspiration is the reason behind my 4-2-3-1 formation. Since the regular 4-2-3-1 in FM20 is relatively top heavy, I’ve adjusted it by moving the midfielders to the DM-strata and the wingers to the midfield-strata (this is mainly because I think that wingers in the AM-strata is poor to track the oppositions fullbacks). So, to summarize and put it simple: I want to be solid at the back and play counter attacking football.

I’ve been watching games trying to improve my tactic, but now I’ve come to a point where I could need some serious input/ideas/constructive criticism. None of these roles or instructions are set in stone, and although I’m trying to create a tactic inspired by Benitez, I’m open for any suggestions that simply would make this tactic better.

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Akselito said:

I want to be solid at the back and play counter attacking football

I don't know your players, so I cannot tell you how exactly you should play or which specific tweaks/changes you need to make. But here are some ideas I believe you should consider:

- remove the "Be more disciplined" instruction, because if you want to execute effective counter-attacks, then you should not limit your players' freedom of movement and creativity

- either change the lone striker into a simpler role such as AF or PF on attack or change the AMC into a SS (of course, provided that the player has the right set of attributes)

- do not use pass into space all the time, but rather situationally (as you see fit based on what happens on the pitch at the moment)

- higher tempo would make sense if counter-attacking is the style you want to implement

- regroup in transition is not necessary, because both your formation and tactic within it are already defensive enough

- you probably don't need all 3 aggressive out-of-possession instructions - i.e. get stuck in, more urgent pressing and tight marking - used at the same time. Instead, try different combinations involving just 2 of them and see which one works best for your team (pay attention to your player's attributes to see what makes more sense)

There are also a couple of possible tweaks in terms of roles and duties (besides the already mentioned front 2), but without knowledge of your players, it's really impossible to offer more specific suggestions.

NOTE: There is always one potential problem with counter-attacking football - it's probably not going to work in all matches and/or situations. While it does make sense against stronger opposition (or similarly strong opposition away from home), what when you play at home against a weaker or equally strong opponent?

[summatsupeer]

One thing that stands out compared to Benitez liverpool is your dm pair.  He had the aggressive ball winning mascherano and the creative dlp Alonso.  You've used pass into space instead which means a lot of players are going to be trying risky passes, do they have the ability to?  Could you instead pick a playmaker or a specific player to take the risks to create with the risky passes?  Especially deep to launch the attacks effectively rather than just giving the ball back.

[Akselito]

 

6 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

- either change the lone striker into a simpler role such as AF or PF on attack or change the AMC into a SS (of course, provided that the player has the right set of attributes)

- do not use pass into space all the time, but rather situationally (as you see fit based on what happens on the pitch at the moment)

- higher tempo would make sense if counter-attacking is the style you want to implement

Thanks for some great ideas, @Experienced Defender. I've changed my striker to an AF as this suited my players better. I originally ticked the "Pass into space" in order to get that kind of counter attacking play from my team that I wanted, without selecting the "Counter" instruction as this made some of my players (including one of my CB's for instance) rush forward on counters leaving huge spaces behind. Could you elaborate more on this instruction and why it should be used more situationally? Is it correct to interpret the instruction in the same matter as the PPD "Tries killer passes"? Meaning that all my players would attempt these kinds of risky passes? I've also added the "higher tempo" instruction as you suggested, which makes very much sense of course. 

6 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

- remove the "Be more disciplined" instruction, because if you want to execute effective counter-attacks, then you should not limit your players' freedom of movement and creativity

- regroup in transition is not necessary, because both your formation and tactic within it are already defensive enough

- you probably don't need all 3 aggressive out-of-possession instructions - i.e. get stuck in, more urgent pressing and tight marking - used at the same time. Instead, try different combinations involving just 2 of them and see which one works best for your team (pay attention to your player's attributes to see what makes more sense)

I've removed "Be more disciplined", "Regroup" and "Get stuck in". I guess I have been too focused on not conceding goals, as I can understand that all of these settings at the same time is probably a tad too much.

6 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

There are also a couple of possible tweaks in terms of roles and duties (besides the already mentioned front 2), but without knowledge of your players, it's really impossible to offer more specific suggestions.

Are there some roles in particular you are thinking about, where I could post pictures of the relevant players in these positions? (If that's not too much to ask). I have for example noticed in some situations that my wingers are lagging behind when my team is attacking. I tried to deal with this by giving the IW (S) the instruction "Get further forward", and the W (S) the instructions "Get further forward" and "Cross from byline" hoping they would rush forward more often without giving them an overly offensive mentality. These instructions didn't work as I would've hoped, and the possible solution is probably giving one of them an attacking duty. Now that I have removed "Be more disciplined" I'll be watching this in the next games and see if their movements develop in the direction I would like.  I've also considered making one of the CB's a BPD as I have players for this, but since my wingers is lacking the forward movement, I think is necessary to benefit from a BPD, I haven't made this change yet. 

6 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

NOTE: There is always one potential problem with counter-attacking football - it's probably not going to work in all matches and/or situations. While it does make sense against stronger opposition (or similarly strong opposition away from home), what when you play at home against a weaker or equally strong opponent?

Yes, I'm aware, and totally agree that this should not be my long-term solution for my main tactic. My thought was that this formation gives me some flexibility, and that I could change my style of play without drastically changing the formation (like moving the wingers further up the pitch as one example).

Edited March 13, 2020 by Akselito

[Akselito]

1 hour ago, summatsupeer said:

One thing that stands out compared to Benitez liverpool is your dm pair.  He had the aggressive ball winning mascherano and the creative dlp Alonso.  You've used pass into space instead which means a lot of players are going to be trying risky passes, do they have the ability to?  Could you instead pick a playmaker or a specific player to take the risks to create with the risky passes?  Especially deep to launch the attacks effectively rather than just giving the ball back.

These are som good points, and I'll might consider changing the Segundo Volante role into DLP and see if it plays better, but my inspiration came mainly from the Valencia side that Benitez managed before Liverpool, where David Albelda and Ruben Baraja were the double pivot. Albelda had the more defensive role, while Baraja had license to move forward more operating in a similar matter as a B2B-midfielder. I also like the idea behind the Segundo Volante, and would like to try to get this role to function proper in a tactic as I've never used it before. 

Edited March 13, 2020 by Akselito

[Experienced Defender]

1 minute ago, Akselito said:

Could you elaborate more on this instruction and why it should be used more situationally?

Simply because it tends to lead to needless loses of possession. Playing counter-attacking football does not mean that you should lose possession more often that necessary. The same is basically the reason why you don't need to use the Counter instruction in transition all the time, even if you want to play a counter-oriented style of football. Just as playing possession-based football does not mean that you should never attempt a counter-attack. In other words, whatever style of football you want to play, you need to be pragmatic  

 

6 minutes ago, Akselito said:

Is it correct to interpret the instruction in the same matter as the PPD "Tries killer passes"? Meaning that all my players would attempt these kinds of risky passes?

Not really. Or at least not literally so. Passing into space as a team instruction is not the same as a killer pass or risky pass (player instruction). While passing into space will generally encourage a bit more through balls, it's not just about this specific kind of passes. And using the Pass into space TI does not mean that your players will exclusively play passes into space and never play "normal" passes to feet. Instead, it just encourages the players to play a pass into the space in front of a teammate a bit more often than they otherwise would, so they will basically attempt those passes whenever they believe such a pass makes sense. 

 

13 minutes ago, Akselito said:

Are there some roles in particular you are thinking about, where I could post pictures of the relevant players in these positions?

I would like to see profiles of as many of your players as possible, but in this particular case I was primarily referring to your DMs and fullbacks. 

 

15 minutes ago, Akselito said:

I have for example noticed in some situations that my wingers are lagging behind when my team is attacking. I tried to deal with this by giving the IW (S) the instruction "Get further forward", and the W (S) the instructions "Get further forward" and "Cross from byline" hoping they would rush forward more often without giving them an overly offensive mentality

I don't know your wingers, but maybe they simply aren't fast enough? 

 

16 minutes ago, Akselito said:

Now that I have removed "Be more disciplined" I'll be watching this in the next games and see if their movements develop in the direction I would like

Well, it may contribute to that. Because the BMD instruction basically discourages the freedom of movement. 

 

18 minutes ago, Akselito said:

I've also considered making one of the CB's a BPD as I have players for this, but since my wingers is lacking the forward movement, I think is necessary to benefit from a BPD, I haven't made this change yet

If you have a CB with the right attributes for a BPD role (passing, vision, decisions, first touch, composure, anticipation), then playing him as a BPD would absolutely make sense in a counter-attacking tactic. 

 

20 minutes ago, Akselito said:

My thought was that this formation gives me some flexibility, and that I could change my style of play without drastically changing the formation (like moving the wingers further up the pitch for example)

I like your line of reasoning here 

[Akselito]

So, I’ve played three matches (and a friendly my assistant arranged out of the blue) with the new changes with great success. 

Against City (4^th) I also had two goals disallowed for offside. They dominated possession, but I was still able to create some good chances. Against Liverpool (2^nd), we had equally the same possession and also created a lot of chances. The victory against Arsenal (1^st) was a bit lucky, as they pushed me throughout the whole match, but this opened for counter attacking opportunities which is exactly what I want to do against these big sides.

12 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Not really. Or at least not literally so. Passing into space as a team instruction is not the same as a killer pass or risky pass (player instruction). While passing into space will generally encourage a bit more through balls, it's not just about this specific kind of passes. And using the Pass into space TI does not mean that your players will exclusively play passes into space and never play "normal" passes to feet. Instead, it just encourages the players to play a pass into the space in front of a teammate a bit more often than they otherwise would, so they will basically attempt those passes whenever they believe such a pass makes sense. 

Thanks for clarifying this for me. The last part you mentioned is how I’ve interpreted the instruction. Funny thing is that after reading your answer, I played the game against Arsenal and the goal I conceded was of course because of my “Pass into space” instruction where my CB played a pass into space to my DM who were unable to reach the ball before the opposition player. It’s the first time I actually see the (negative) consequences of this instruction, so I’ll definitely use this instruction with greater care in the future.

12 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I would like to see profiles of as many of your players as possible, but in this particular case I was primarily referring to your DMs and fullbacks. 

That would be great, I’ll make a new post with pictures of my players. Thanks!

12 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I don't know your wingers, but maybe they simply aren't fast enough? 

I’m amazed that I didn’t think about this, this could very well be the reason, although I did get the impression when it happened that my wingers weren’t sprinting at full speed and that the reason lies with their instructions.

[Akselito]

My squad:

GK - Marcus

DR - Gorosabel

DR - Mumba

PPM's: Gets forward whenever possible, winds up opponents, argues with officials, plays one-twos, likes to switch ball to other flank

DC - Lacroix


DC - Loureiro


DC - Ibanez


DC - Branthwaite


DL - Lobo


DL - Lato


DM - Monchu 


DM - Morlanes


DM - Dobson


DM - Gabriel


AMC - O'Hare


AMC - Tagseth

PPM's: Plays one-twos, moves ball to left foot before dribble attempt, likes ball played into feet, runs with ball often

MR - Vassi


MR - Bacuna


ML - Gomes

PPM's: Runs with ball through centre, shoots from distance, tries tricks, tries long range passes

ML - Zekhnini


STC - Gouiri


STC - Caldarola

PPM's: Runs with ball through centre, tries killer balls often, likes to lob keeper, knocks ball past opponent, tries to play way out of trouble, cuts inside from both wings

The idea behind many of these players were to have different types of players in the various positions. On the fullbacks I've tried to have one physically/mentally strong that is better suited to defend (Lobo, Gorosabel) and one player that is more offensive (Lato, Mumba). The same thought has gone to my wingers, where some are better suited for working hard and defending (Zekhnini, Bacuna) and the others better at attacking (Vassi, Gomes). My segundo volantes could probably be better in the defensive aspects, but Monchu has actually performed well considering our poor perfomances so far. Gabriel in the DM spot is originally a DC, but i wanted an even more defensive DM compared to Dobson, so i'm training him in the DM position. 

Edited March 14, 2020 by Akselito

[Experienced Defender]

42 minutes ago, Akselito said:

the goal I conceded was of course because of my “Pass into space” instruction where my CB played a pass into space to my DM who were unable to reach the ball before the opposition player. It’s the first time I actually see the (negative) consequences of this instruction, so I’ll definitely use this instruction with greater care in the future

Mental attributes, especially decisions, play an important part here. A more intelligent/tactically aware a player is, the less likely he will be to make this kind of mistakes (misjudgment). And vice versa, of course. 

Besides decisions, other mental attributes that matter relative to the PiS instruction are anticipation and off the ball. 

Tempo is another factor you need to look at in the sense that a higher tempo forces players to make decisions faster, so a player can misjudge a pass into space more often than under a normal or lower tempo. 

Team mentality automatically affects all other instructions, so that's also something you should be aware of. For example, higher tempo under the attacking team mentality is not the same as higher tempo under the Positive (let alone balanced or lower mentalities). The same applies to all other instructions, both in and out of possession. 

[Experienced Defender]

I've analyzed your players, and I can say that you have a pretty decent squad overall.

[edwarf]

Hi, I tried making a tactic emulating Rafa Benitez' Liverpool 2008-2009 side that nearly won the premier league. Steven Gerrard, the AMC in the system, inspired me for this, as it was at his most prolific season in terms of goals and assists.

Here are the details of it (I am still playing FM19)

Mentality: Positive

Shape: Flexible

 

Player roles and duties:

GK: Sweeper Keeper (defend)

DL: Attacking wing back (attack)

      PI: cross from byline

DCl: Ball playing defender (defend)

DCr: Central defender (defend)

DR: Full back (support)

MCl: Central midfielder (defend)

MCr: deep lying playmaker (support)

   PI: more direct passes

AML: Inside forward (support)

   PI: tighter marking

AMR: Winger (attack)

   PI: tighter marking

AMC: Shadow striker (attack)

   PI: roam from position

ST: Complete forward (support)

 

Team instructions:

In possession:

-play out of defence

-hit early crosses

-higher tempo

-drill crosses

-be more disciplined

-overlap left

-play wider

In transition:

-Distribute short

-Distribute quickly

-Counter

-Counter-press

Out of possession:

-Higher defensive line

-Higher line of engagement

-More urgent

-Use offside trap

-Prevent short GK distribution

 

 

I am currently playing this tactic with Barcelona in the year 2027, which is easy of course. Nevertheless my team is playing some great football, whilst staying solid at the back. My AMC is getting good ratings too.

I'd like to hear your feedback!

 

Ed