Tactical build up - suggestion based on philosophy

[Perb]

I have tried to find a stable tactic that I could use as a base throughout my season with minor changes depending on the opponent. So far I have mainly been working with a 4-2-3-1, 4-1-2-3, 4-4-2 and 5-3-2 WB. I just haven't succeded.  (This is not a thread to adjust my previous tactics)
With 4-2-3-1, 4-1-2-3 I have made the best results. For the first 6 months it provided stable and successful results. For a few matches up until the transfer window/ winter break, I see a sudden change in the outcome of the matches. My offensive players, attack and wingers are all of a sudden completely taken out of the game. I may win with a single goal from my defenders or midfielders. After winter break my tactic is completely torn apart. 5-10 consecutive losses and constant load of bad decisions on the pitch. I don't know where it's coming from but it seems the AI have adjusted to my tactics and I just have no way out of it.
So the reason for this thread is to try a new build up for a specific philosophy based on any constructive suggestions you may have. I may have used the above formations wrong, I don't know - I think it's difficult to comprehend the consequence of any adjustment/role change. Logical changes may not be logical afterall. So ideas for any formation, instructions roles, anything based on what I am trying to build. Note: I don't have players available who can play for any major club teams. Therefore I am curious if someone have had success building a tactic outside the major leagues.

I will try to explain my philosophy, please let me know if any additional information is required.
I don't mind not having the ball all the time but I imagine 40-45% is a stable level for game influence.

Attacking philosophy:
Conquer the ball on own half, not from my own penalty area but more from a DM positon/line. Then use direct through balls to the forward player, or play wide for rushing wingers. Forward and winger positions is where I would like most of my goals to come from. If counter attack was unsuccesful and possesion is still kept, I would like ball-moving-players (midfield supported by back or CB) to player further back on the pitch drawing in opponents to provide options for wingers and forward(s) to move around finding space to receive  and continue to attack. I want to completely avoid cross and headers as much as possible since they always end for goal kicks or blocked to corners. (Fun fact: the most dangerous situation for me is when I have the corner).
So goals will rarely come from backs or central midfielders and mainly distributed through forward and winger positions (based on the formations I have previously used).

Defending Philosophy:
To avoid alot of crossed balls I would like to intercept the ball from the DM lines position as previously mentioned.  I don't want to engage high up the pitch and keep spacefor my attacking players - classic counter play, but not completely backed up on the byline getting pounded. When possesion is lost I want to completely close down the flanks to prevent any attack coming through, force opponent to play center and snap the ball.

 

I have a print of the type of players I have available:

I know it doesn't give you any idea of their stats and ability but I don't think it's too relevant, since I have been crushed against teams with players one to one I am far superior - so It can be done.
What do you reckon?

[XuluBak]

Hard to give specific advice without your actual tactics, but from what you've said...

It sounds like you want to play a direct counter attacking system, which was working well until about the midway point of the season (were you overachieving expectations???), then goals become harder to find. I think this is a fairly common occurrence. Early in the year, teams were opening up more, allowing for good chances on the counter. As the season progresses, and you're at or near the top of the table, more teams start playing conservatively against you. Your tactic that was so successful against teams opening up, is much less effective against teams parking the bus. 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Perb said:

Attacking philosophy:
Conquer the ball on own half, not from my own penalty area but more from a DM positon/line. Then use direct through balls to the forward player, or play wide for rushing wingers. Forward and winger positions is where I would like most of my goals to come from. If counter attack was unsuccesful and possesion is still kept, I would like ball-moving-players (midfield supported by back or CB) to player further back on the pitch drawing in opponents to provide options for wingers and forward(s) to move around finding space to receive  and continue to attack. I want to completely avoid cross and headers as much as possible since they always end for goal kicks or blocked to corners. (Fun fact: the most dangerous situation for me is when I have the corner).
So goals will rarely come from backs or central midfielders and mainly distributed through forward and winger positions (based on the formations I have previously used).

Defending Philosophy:
To avoid alot of crossed balls I would like to intercept the ball from the DM lines position as previously mentioned.  I don't want to engage high up the pitch and keep spacefor my attacking players - classic counter play, but not completely backed up on the byline getting pounded. When possesion is lost I want to completely close down the flanks to prevent any attack coming through, force opponent to play center and snap the ball

If I understood correctly, you want to play a fast counter-attacking style primarily through the middle of the pitch, while in defense you want to prevent crosses from the opposition as much as possible. Basically, force them to play through the middle and then counter-attack them also through the middle.

Based on that assumption, here are some tips:

- do not use a narrow formation (so that your fullbacks would not to have deal against opposition players on their own too much)

- do not use a formation with an AMC (so that your wide forwards would be encouraged - i.e. not discouraged - to go inside, rather than wide)

- use wider defensive width (as you want to prevent the opposition from crossing as much as possible)

- do not use the winger role on the flanks (because you want to avoid attacking crosses as well)

- use either narrower attacking width or focus play through the middle TI (because both at the same time could prove an overkill and limit your options a bit too much)

So when it comes to the choice of formation, these are basically ones you should consider IMO: 4141dm wide (a.k.a. 4123 wide) or 4213dm wide or 541wb wide (a.k.a. 523 wide).

I hope this is enough to give you at least some initial ideas. If you want any further advice, please let me know 

[Perb]

3 hours ago, XuluBak said:

Hard to give specific advice without your actual tactics, but from what you've said...

It sounds like you want to play a direct counter attacking system, which was working well until about the midway point of the season (were you overachieving expectations???), then goals become harder to find. I think this is a fairly common occurrence. Early in the year, teams were opening up more, allowing for good chances on the counter. As the season progresses, and you're at or near the top of the table, more teams start playing conservatively against you. Your tactic that was so successful against teams opening up, is much less effective against teams parking the bus. 

I'm not sure I was overachieving since I had the same problem with different level of clubs, even in the cup competition against lower league teams I would get pounded - I would still win because of individual strength but it was clear that something fundamental was wrong in the lineup. When 1 striker can force 4 defensive players and a goalkeeper to clear the ball for a throw-in, you know somethings off.

Correct that I couldn't cope with teams parking the bus. Just couldn't get through. On the other hand I had incredibly poor possesion when oppponents was pressing hard all the way up to my defensive line. Forced to clear the ball everytime. This might be a result of me not able to counter the opposition instructions. I just don't know how to counter tight compact defensive lines or use the incredible open spaces when opponents are pressing high.

 

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

If I understood correctly, you want to play a fast counter-attacking style primarily through the middle of the pitch, while in defense you want to prevent crosses from the opposition as much as possible. Basically, force them to play through the middle and then counter-attack them also through the middle.

Based on that assumption, here are some tips:

- do not use a narrow formation (so that your fullbacks would not to have deal against opposition players on their own too much)

- do not use a formation with an AMC (so that your wide forwards would be encouraged - i.e. not discouraged - to go inside, rather than wide)

- use wider defensive width (as you want to prevent the opposition from crossing as much as possible)

- do not use the winger role on the flanks (because you want to avoid attacking crosses as well)

- use either narrower attacking width or focus play through the middle TI (because both at the same time could prove an overkill and limit your options a bit too much)

So when it comes to the choice of formation, these are basically ones you should consider IMO: 4141dm wide (a.k.a. 4123 wide) or 4213dm wide or 541wb wide (a.k.a. 523 wide).

I hope this is enough to give you at least some initial ideas. If you want any further advice, please let me know 

You've captured my style of play - Let me just add it doesn't have to be attacked from center, wingers are supposed to offer wide solutions to take advantage og the exposed open areas.

I have tried set up a formation based on how I interpretate your thoughts. I know the TM may not be the best solution, he was completely anonymous, however my first striker was overcoming a small injury - usually I would play him as DLP-A or AF. the IWB has also been used as a FB-su.

 

One game I just  played, i Won 1-0 but it wasn't pretty. The goal was a corner. As you can see I didn't really produce any attacking play. However I quite effective on the tackling part. I play comprehensive highlights, the few attacks I saw my forwards was tightly marked by on of their CB og backs. Everytime they would compense an attack they were tackled straight on - lost the ball. I am still defending alot against crosses. My backs seem to withdraw to a tight formation when the opponents wingers/backs are near the box. The opponent had a very aggresive type of play, they were pushing high - forward/winger was stopped at the center line quite often. Ball distribution was set to short (since my keeper would otherwise play for the opposite team - Handover balls), and they pushed high up the pitch. The ball was often cleared for throw-ins.

 

I did see alot of clear balls from the defends however I really fail to collect them. The opponents instead keep the pressure. This is just one classic example how elegant the opponent does. This is after a throw-in for me. For reference im playing white/Blue and opponent is white.
The ball is headed out in the open, and their player runs towards it, first-time the ball further wide to a Trequartista collecting the ball attacking. Where I usually find my forward player quite stationary - regardless of him playing TM, AF or DLF. They got a pretty decent chance out of it. Just a classic example on how they efficiently collect 2. balls and retain possesion - which is probably the main reason for their massive lead in shots. However they only had 1 CCC and 3 half chances. collecting balls in open play is a problem both defensive and offensive.

Another example where my formation is not working how I want it to. I am playing with a wide defensive line to counter the attacking flanks. As you can see on the far right there is a classic example of how the play usually ends. Ball is passed wide, back retracts to a tight formation line leaving space and time to cross.

 

I played a few games and I face similar challenges in all of them:

Offensive:
- IW seems quite anonymous together with DLF rarely around the box to finish
- IF-A is a part of most offensive highlights - he is behind most of my chances at goal
- Stationary forward /winger when ball is cleared to the open field
- Generally lack ability to pick up return or cleared balls - short and long play.
- No particular attacking movement when I have ball possesion.
- Half time analysis is often bad possesion in the opponents half

Defensive:
- Players easily panick when under high pressure, either clears the ball or gets tackled. Lack ability to play out of trouble.
- Defence is getting pounded with crosses deep and byline, opponents usually have 20+ chances in a match
- Midfield are providing a solid defensive wall but have no participation on closing down. Opponents have alot of time to pass wide to their flanks overlapping. As a result transition of the play is usually from defend to forward/winger and either lost or interceptet ball

[Experienced Defender]

50 minutes ago, Perb said:

I played a few games and I face similar challenges in all of them:

Offensive:
- IW seems quite anonymous together with DLF rarely around the box to finish
- IF-A is a part of most offensive highlights - he is behind most of my chances at goal
- Stationary forward /winger when ball is cleared to the open field
- Generally lack ability to pick up return or cleared balls - short and long play.
- No particular attacking movement when I have ball possesion.
- Half time analysis is often bad possesion in the opponents half

Defensive:
- Players easily panick when under high pressure, either clears the ball or gets tackled. Lack ability to play out of trouble.
- Defence is getting pounded with crosses deep and byline, opponents usually have 20+ chances in a match
- Midfield are providing a solid defensive wall but have no participation on closing down. Opponents have alot of time to pass wide to their flanks overlapping. As a result transition of the play is usually from defend to forward/winger and either lost or interceptet ball

I don't know your players, so it's hard to give any meaningful comment. I can only tell you which changes/tweaks I would suggest to your tactic: 

 

51 minutes ago, Perb said:

AF/PFat

IFsu                                   IWat

BWMsu    APsu

DMde

WBsu    CDde   CDde   IWBde

SKde/su

Balanced mentality

- higher tempo, slightly more direct passing and either focus through the middle or slightly narrower width

- counter and distribute quickly

- lower LOE and defend wider

Player instructions:

MCR/APsu - roam from position

AML/IFsu - sit narrower

Opposition instructions (in relation to your "fear" of crosses):

always close down opposition AML/R and ML/R positions

But the problem with counter-attacking tactics is that you cannot use them all the time (i.e. against every opponent). What will you do when you are the favorite in a match?

[Perb]

@Experienced Defender thank you for your input.

I tried adjusting my tactic according with your instructions and line-up. The remaining 15 matches of the season my team was limited to 3 losses and 4 draws. My victories was not impressive though. mainly won on set pieces, and every match opponent had 20+ shots at goal.
It improved how my attack was performed. So when the attack was successful it was epic. However it was rare and I didn't produce enough chances during a match. I was stil bombarded with 20+ shots by the opponents and concede just a matter of time.
Using your instructions most of the attacks was coming from my wingers. but the transition was often directly from defend to attack. My forward and midfield was often left out of the game to chase a ghost. AF/PF or any other role would make the forward constant off-side, so I tried F9 to support my wingers and exploide the open AMC area. This turned out to open up more attacks, atleast put him in the game and the occasional deep run.
To try get a different dynamic on the midfield I went all defensive oriented. Instead of AP I switched to a DLP paired with a BWM. it gave a different midfield dynamic that have now greatly decreased the opponent chances at goal - so far.

I wanted to use my attack minded midfielders, but it doesn't seem to work well. This configuration now closes down more succesful and they sit back on ball possesion trying to find the deep passes. I remain control this way instead of rush attacks.

On 28/02/2020 at 00:13, Experienced Defender said:

But the problem with counter-attacking tactics is that you cannot use them all the time (i.e. against every opponent). What will you do when you are the favorite in a match?

Opponent often park the bus. So far I seem to have found a solution. I am not sure it works throughout the season. Based on how my midfield work to retain possesion, instruction "work the ball into the box" seems to have a patient impact on the style of play - less direct but still focused on the 3 attacking positions.

A new season has started and my pre-season seemed promising. I started the new league against a team who always play extremely aggresive. Sometimes only 2 players back to defend, and I still can't fight them off - I should be pounting them with counters. They are pushing so high up the pitch it is ridiculous. Take this situation for instance:

My first go to solution for this would be to instruct my keeper to play long instead of short. However that would just result in a direct pass to the opponent.

They often play 4-2-3-1 or 3-4-3, pressing very high up the pitch. I just don't know how to work them. Physically my players are superior so it is not in duels they win. Opponent retain ball so quick my players are quickly disorganised. WB playing CB, my midfield is curled up somewhere on the sideline.

Do you have any suggestions how to overcome these type of aggresive play-styles?

EDIT:
Just played against Rangers and they had a more conservative and defensive approach - the tactic completely overwhelmed them.

Edited February 29, 2020 by Perb

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Perb said:

@Experienced Defender thank you for your input.

I tried adjusting my tactic according with your instructions and line-up. The remaining 15 matches of the season my team was limited to 3 losses and 4 draws. My victories was not impressive though. mainly won on set pieces, and every match opponent had 20+ shots at goal.
It improved how my attack was performed. So when the attack was successful it was epic. However it was rare and I didn't produce enough chances during a match. I was stil bombarded with 20+ shots by the opponents and concede just a matter of time.
Using your instructions most of the attacks was coming from my wingers. but the transition was often directly from defend to attack. My forward and midfield was often left out of the game to chase a ghost. AF/PF or any other role would make the forward constant off-side, so I tried F9 to support my wingers and exploide the open AMC area. This turned out to open up more attacks, atleast put him in the game and the occasional deep run.
To try get a different dynamic on the midfield I went all defensive oriented. Instead of AP I switched to a DLP paired with a BWM. it gave a different midfield dynamic that have now greatly decreased the opponent chances at goal - so far.

I wanted to use my attack minded midfielders, but it doesn't seem to work well. This configuration now closes down more succesful and they sit back on ball possesion trying to find the deep passes. I remain control this way instead of rush attacks.

Opponent often park the bus. So far I seem to have found a solution. I am not sure it works throughout the season. Based on how my midfield work to retain possesion, instruction "work the ball into the box" seems to have a patient impact on the style of play - less direct but still focused on the 3 attacking positions.

A new season has started and my pre-season seemed promising. I started the new league against a team who always play extremely aggresive. Sometimes only 2 players back to defend, and I still can't fight them off - I should be pounting them with counters. They are pushing so high up the pitch it is ridiculous. Take this situation for instance:

My first go to solution for this would be to instruct my keeper to play long instead of short. However that would just result in a direct pass to the opponent.

They often play 4-2-3-1 or 3-4-3, pressing very high up the pitch. I just don't know how to work them. Physically my players are superior so it is not in duels they win. Opponent retain ball so quick my players are quickly disorganised. WB playing CB, my midfield is curled up somewhere on the sideline.

Do you have any suggestions how to overcome these type of aggresive play-styles?

EDIT:
Just played against Rangers and they had a more conservative and defensive approach - the tactic completely overwhelmed them.

If I knew your players, then I would know how exactly I would set up both the primary and secondary starting tactics as well as which potential tweaks I would make if needed in different situations. Otherwise, I can only speculate, but cannot know if any of those suggestions would suit your team. My tactics are not plug'n'play, they require watching matches and tweaking accordingly.

[HanziZoloman]

5 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

My tactics are not plug'n'play, they require watching matches and tweaking accordingly.

Well that’s the point. How do you adjust during a match could you give one or two examples please? 
like the Situation @Perb described, an aggressive pressing opponent and a helpless Defense. 
Or something like long balls up front (because of the pressure) and no one to hold them, losing the balls to opposing pressing defenders.

thanks

[Nikola75]

@Perb I just found your topic. I was having the same problem with my save. 4123 or 4231, quite successful at the beginning of the season and then disasters in January / February. I went 7-10 matches without a win in two separate seasons, everything just fell apart. Have you continued to make it better in past month? What have you learned since?