Tactical adjustments 4231 - help

[Perb]

Hi Guys

I know there is alot of threads out there, but everyone seems to have different problems with the gameplay/adjustments and none have been quite helpful for my case.

I have used an entire season to adjust my 4231 tactic for for stability, diverse goal scores and less predictability. I thought I was close and have seen some remarkable results (in very few matches). I have also restarted alot of matches to see how adjustments would change the outcome against the same team. If relevant I play in the Danish top league. My team is in the top half of the league so on paper it is one of the stronger teams.

This is my set tactic with most common used instructions. Of course I like when my attacker manages to score, but I would also like to see alot more contribution from my OMV, AMC and OMH.

So what is wrong now?

My Striker has been taken out of the game. He gets the open chances but fails and now my OMV, AMC and OMH plays anonymous.

When I look at the stats I have a fair amount og ball possesion throughout a game. Usually 55-65%. However I usually have 4-7 chances and opponents atleast 15 (I get the same result with high and low ranked teams)

I mainly lose possesion on the opppents half which results in a long pass to striker running deep. I have tried adjusting the defensive line back and forth but it doesn't changes the outcome. Conquering the ball --> Long Pass --> Deep run --> goal.
Also I concede alot from overlapping backs coming to cross (Which strangely is something I have never achieved - the assists mentioned above is from other gameplays, mainly set pieces).

My central defenders mark poorly given the many deep runs, my backs push forward to stop the engaging attack but without support from midfield and wingers they are easily overlapped (I see this even when on a defensive role. Even worse when positioned as WB)
I also have the setting distribute to backs. But never happens. Ball is distributed to CD which holds the ball untill they are engaged by the opponent - completely unnecesary BTW.

To help the attack play I also had the CM -AT it helped on the offensive play but left the defense even more vulnerable. Not a valid option.

Another thing I have noted which I imagine doesn't make the play easier. I usually have atleast 20 fouls each game. Mainly by my backs. I have tried to use less intensity in the team instructions, Stay on feet and defensive instructions, but still same outcome.

I have tried alot of different roles, bringing the OMH to Su, DLP-su, MC-D, AMC-AT nothing seems to change their participation in the game.
Striker I have tried different roles as AF, False nine. CF seems to bring him more into play and give him the chances.

Any thoughts on how to improve the flow of the play?

 

[Experienced Defender]

6 hours ago, Perb said:

The setup of roles and duties looks decent. I don't know your players, so it's hard to tell you what exact tweaks you could try to improve it further. One role you should reconsider is the CF. The role itself is great, but can struggle in a top-heavy system due to the lack of space and requires a really good all-round player. DLF on attack would be a better choice in this particular setup IMHO. It's also the creator type of role, but is more simple than CF. 

A very important thing when it comes specifically to top-heavy systems without a DM (such as 4231 or 424) is that you need to make sure both your CMs are defensively reliable players. If not, then better avoid the 4231. 

7 hours ago, Perb said:

I mainly lose possesion on the opppents half which results in a long pass to striker running deep. I have tried adjusting the defensive line back and forth but it doesn't changes the outcome. Conquering the ball --> Long Pass --> Deep run --> goal

Besides the higher DL, you also use more urgent pressing and overlaps on both flanks. So even if you drop the DL, these other 2 instructions can also contribute a lot to your defensive issues (along with the counter-press, which is always a risky instruction if your players are not good enough to execute it properly).

The fact that you tend to lose possession in the opposition half probably means that you should remove the Work ball into box, again due to the lack of quality on the part of your players - they are probably not good enough to execute such an instruction. 

7 hours ago, Perb said:

To help the attack play I also had the CM -AT it helped on the offensive play but left the defense even more vulnerable. Not a valid option

In a 4231, you should not use any attack duties at all in CM positions. 

Btw, what are OMV and OMH ???

7 hours ago, Perb said:

Another thing I have noted which I imagine doesn't make the play easier. I usually have atleast 20 fouls each game. Mainly by my backs

This could well be caused by your use of the overlaps. Your fullbacks are probably not able (i.e. good enough) to perform their defensive duties when they need to get back quickly into their defensive positions in the defensive transition phase. 

Overall, I fear that your tactic might be a bit too ambitious for the quality of your players. Maybe a more balanced formation (like 4141dm wide) would help for starters.

[Perb]

20 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

The setup of roles and duties looks decent. I don't know your players, so it's hard to tell you what exact tweaks you could try to improve it further. One role you should reconsider is the CF. The role itself is great, but can struggle in a top-heavy system due to the lack of space and requires a really good all-round player. DLF on attack would be a better choice in this particular setup IMHO. It's also the creator type of role, but is more simple than CF. 

A very important thing when it comes specifically to top-heavy systems without a DM (such as 4231 or 424) is that you need to make sure both your CMs are defensively reliable players. If not, then better avoid the 4231. 

Besides the higher DL, you also use more urgent pressing and overlaps on both flanks. So even if you drop the DL, these other 2 instructions can also contribute a lot to your defensive issues (along with the counter-press, which is always a risky instruction if your players are not good enough to execute it properly).

The fact that you tend to lose possession in the opposition half probably means that you should remove the Work ball into box, again due to the lack of quality on the part of your players - they are probably not good enough to execute such an instruction. 

In a 4231, you should not use any attack duties at all in CM positions. 

Btw, what are OMV and OMH ???

This could well be caused by your use of the overlaps. Your fullbacks are probably not able (i.e. good enough) to perform their defensive duties when they need to get back quickly into their defensive positions in the defensive transition phase. 

Overall, I fear that your tactic might be a bit too ambitious for the quality of your players. Maybe a more balanced formation (like 4141dm wide) would help for starters.

Thank you very much for your input. I used your advice in regards to reconsider the CF role.
After I sold my first striker my reserve was about to come in handy. He was easily adapted to a false nine or DLP role. MY reserve striker was not working in my old system before - either as Poacher, CF or AF. Now as a False Nine: 5 matches, 6 goals, 1 assist. What you can't see in the line-up is he is only a young striker developing.

 

About the defensive issues began to make small changes just to see what gave the most impact. I started my removing "work into box" instructions and being less aggressive about the overlaping backs. Keeping the WB on a defensive duty makes together with the high defensive line, he is more considered in his approach up the field together with the support duty of the right IW works well together with the FB-AT.
I've had a quite impressive start to the season:

 

OMV and OMH is a brain-fart from my part. I unintensionally used my native contractions of the positions. It just means Offensive left winger and vice versa on the right.

[Perb]

I have now played almost half a season with this line up. The first 2 months went very well, then litterly from one game to the next the tactic completely crashed.
I have played games in the Champions league but I am not comparing these matches since those teams are way superior to me. I am experiencing defensive issues and no success with attacking build up.

I still have around 60% ball possesion throughout the match but do not manage to create any significant chances and my opponent usually have 15 attempts through out the game with me conceding anywhere between 2-4 goals each game.
I know my players are more then capable and I analyse matches where every of my players are superior to the oppponents.

This is my current line up after countless adjustments:

 

About 70% of the goals I concede is interceptions on opponents own half.  There seems to be no pressure from my players and gives the opponents ridicolous amount of time on the ball. Plays over my defenders and 100% of the time they have a player who receives. Fortunately they don't score every time. On this particular match I also noticed the opponent plays very offensive. Usually only have 2 players back to defend. Which to me should open up for alot of counter plays. Yet there is no success when I try a more defensive luring approach.

Another classic scenario for me is when my players fail to keep the pressure on the opponent. When opponents intecept the ball they clear it up the field and always has a player in that area without being pressed by my midfielder/defender or tries to recover in a duel and maintain pressure. Instead they just back down. My CBs are strong on crossing and win alot of there duels, however there is no other players to pick up the ball so the opponents keep the pressure. The goals I concede from crossing is only through the wide areas of the pitch, for example winger crossing to winger where usually you would find a FB position ( The FB is in position but just not marking the player).

The only reason I have 60% ball possesion is because the opponents time to recover the ball, play up the field and finish is rapidly fast. When my Goalkeeper distributes to a defender (allways CB even though instructed to FB area). They seem to play the ball around 2-3 players and when pressed by opponent they clear to ball or try a long pass attempt.

I am stuck at one particular match with an opponent I know I should be able to overcome on every aspect of the game, but yet I still experience all the playing issues.
This is their line-up

 

My thoughts on this:
Given my defenders are overrun on every attack I figured the high DL was too much. They aren't the fastest. (neither are the opponents defenders vs. my striker pace/acceleration but they don't seem to have a problem...)
I tried to adjust the DL the first standard, with no change of game experience then adjusted to "lower" still same game result.
I figured my offensive line and CM-D was not pushing opponents on the ball and instructed them to press more and still keep the urgency to standard for the team instructions. No change in gameplay. Also adjusting the LOE to higher but no change it gameplay.

I tried a whole new tactic 4-1-4-1
It changed my offensive play where I managed to score a few goals (maybe 4 goals through 10 matches) Didn't really do any justice since the same defensive issues still occured.
No matter my tactic layout I still have the same issues. My opponent is attacking the same approach every time.
Buttom line: I would like to play how my opponent plays me.
I even desperately tried to copy their line-up - didn't work....

Any thoughts on how to overcome these same time of attacking plays from opponents?
Thanks

 

 

 

Edited January 30, 2020 by Perb

[Experienced Defender]

3 minutes ago, Perb said:

Where is the left back?

Btw, the right side of this setup looks very unsolid and the tactic as a whole seems to lack identity. I don't understand why people insist so much on using the 4231 when it's a tricky system that requires a greater degree of tactical knowledge and experience than more balanced formations.

[llama3]

Changing the CM(s) to a CM(d) drastically improves the solidity if your team.

[BoGdy]

I tried to make a 4-2-3-1 in Fm20 and it was such a pain. 

But, from all things i tried i saw that a combination of DLP(S) and a BBM(S) works great for 4-2-3-1.But you should have proper players to cover the roles. 

If you play with a defensive duty in your central midfield, your team will be dominated on winning posession at the mid and also your players will stay to deep when you attack. So imo use hold position PI on a CM(S) if you don't want to use a DLP(S). 

So, I came with a solution to this if you have a lower team like mine. I put a fullback on defend duty(the one on the same side with your BBM). 

So right now a good setup for 4-2-3-1 should be something like this :

                        DLF(A) 

IF(A).                SS.            W(S) 

               BBM.       DLP(S) 

WB(D).        CD.       CD.        FB(A) 

 

I still have problem creating a good partnership between my AMC and Striker, but the setup above seems decent. 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by BoGdy

[Rasmus]

4-2-3-1 has always been my go-to system, and it can be very frustrating to pull off at times. 
If you have a decent enough player for it, try experimenting with an inverted wing back on defend duty who will be sort of a fourth player in midfield during build up play. Play him on the same side of the cm-s (or BBM). The idea behind this is to overload the midfield and to always have a free man available for a pass. 
After three games in my second season with Leverkusen, I’m seeing great results.

The line up looks like this:

                                                PF-A

    W-S                                      AM-S                        IF-A/Raumdeuter

 

                            CM-S.                       DLP-D

 

IWB-D                 BPD-D.                CD-D.               WB-S

 

                                            SK-S

Instructions:

Positive mentality - I sometimes change to balanced depending on the opposition.

Standard pressing: The front four all set to highest available closing down settings though. A split block perhaps?

Higher LOE and higher D-line with offside trap.

Standard passing, standard tempo, distribute quickly and distribute to CBs or FBs.