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I started a game with my beloved Juventus using the 4-3-1-2 like Sarri in reality although I don't want to replicate his system but only use this formation, in fact in my team there is Mandzukic who has never played this season and now he has been sold to Qatar.

This is my tactic

Tactic.thumb.png.ca2d8dbd53b8ba85448968e01a0e20e8.png

The only PI are More pressing for Car, Mez, TM and P (for the Treq you can't add it but when I tried other roles in this position there was)

The only position that still doesn't convince me is AM C where I've tried SS and Treq for now but before continuing to randomly try out all the other roles I wanted to ask for advice here. The players I want to use I think you know them anyway here are their screenshots

Dybala.thumb.png.489eb9072bb34f24bcdcae7a63266673.png

Ramsey.thumb.png.773632085a7d8b6e9e8d7253f3c2d379.png

The initial results are good and I'd say very good but in the last match against Tottenham even if we won 4-0 we suffered too much and the final result could have been 4-4 so we were also lucky for the mistakes of the opponent's forwards and the parries of my goalkeeper. So I'd also like to ask how I could strengthen the defence so we don't have to suffer all these shots, you know, it won't always go so well...

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Stats.thumb.png.a3ab1810d2259bce12a69e74c0c5f339.png

Thank you in advance to anyone who wants to give me their opinion on this.

 

 

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I've been running almost like for like in the playerroles as you and had decent success doing so, however, i have way more indepth TI's.

First of all, Douglas Costa is absolutely not what you're looking for in a Mezalla in this formation. You need someone with good workrate, decent tackling and even if it's not highlighted, positioning. In fact, you have pretty good options for that role in Ramsey, Bentancur and Can. Who of these will do the best job for you depends on your overall team instructions imo, but speaking from experience the Mez-s in this system plays mostly like a box to box. In fact, i frequently switch it with a BBM with the instruction of staying wider and there's hardly a difference in play between the two. I'd say the bbm is slightly more direct in his movements and aggressive in his pressing while the mez tends to combine and underlap with the wingback a bit more. But these differences are absolutely minimal.

With that being said, you probably want to put your left wingback on support duty as well. Your only width is going to be created from the wingbacks so you need them to be involved. Particulary because the Carrilero and the DLP-d already provide more than enough cover.

As for the attacking trio, a shadow striker can work fantastically and Dybala has (almost) the perfect PPM's for that. You'll ideally want him to have come deep, tries killer balls and plays one two's. However, the dwells on ball will likely be a problem as you don't want him to slow down the pace of your attack. In front of him you need players that he can play off of. Meaning you need someone to hold up the ball for him so he can start his runs and he needs someone that pushes up in front of him and/or drifts out wide so he can feed someone through balls and have the space vacated when he pushes in himself.

I personally think the hold up striker is key to this system and dictates how you can play it. I had lots of success with a target man on support in this role with a high pressing, high tempo system. Which is how e.g. Nagelsmann and Tedesco set up their teams in the Bundesliga. The idea being that your number 6, in this case the dlp, drops off and starts play together with 2 ballplaying defenders, or in Nagelsmanns case sometimes even the wingbacks, looking for either a long pass over the top for the faster striker to run into try to aim a long ball on the target man. Said target man then either let's the ball drop for someone to run into the ball (which your SS and to an extend the Mez/BBM and even Car are really good for) or he loses the ball, which imidiatly initiates a counterpress with the opponent being in an unexpected transition themselves, opening up space for a quick attack against an unorganized shape if you can win the ball back. The term for this is a "planned misspass". And you can replicate that actually fairly decently in the matchengine. In this scenario a AF-a or P-a would work great. Since you're likely playing Ronaldo, AF-a should be fine. What you definatly don't want to do is to play a Poacher with the SS, as the Poacher occupies the same space the SS wants to end his run at and doesn't create enough movement and space for the SS to play off of.

The other option is you have is to play to play a less dynamic, more controlled short passing game, in which case, pair the SS with a DLF-s and most likely a CF-a. Makes for a real fluid front line that can string together lots of beautiful passes.

Personally, I'd go with the targetman system, as it offers you three widely different ways of attacking:

- Long Ball bypassing the midfield from your BPD's or DLP (and at least for me my WB-s tend to do them as well) and then a 2 or 3 short passes with tons of movement from your front three to fashion out a chance

- The planned misspass, where you basicly use a missplaced long ball to spring a quick counter from a counterpress

- Cross from out wide after combining down the flank, mostly happens to the side you run the mezalla on. Or an angled early cross from the half space, which your Mez and Car will often times play.

 

 

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@joergboehme This is the current tactic, I removed all PIs and add Counterpress for the majority of games with Regroup for tough away match instead (for example against Lazio that is my bogey team in FM20 as is for Juventus in real life too and we get a well deserved victory). Douglas Costa play well in Mezzala role and Alex Sandro even if it's a Wb D has offensive PPM like Gets Forward Whenever Possible and Gets Into Opposition Area so is not very reserved. Finally for the AM C position that was the object of the first part of my post now is a simple AM S, in this role Dybala is a beast and Ramsey did well too, I also want to try Bernardeschi but for now I don't. So for now I will continue this way but if my honeymoon with this tactic will come to an end I will try your suggestions for sure.

Schedule.thumb.png.be642b33c05dce4ae4578e71863d00fd.pngTactic.thumb.png.b47c7cd96c7776ef542842c00eaa360f.png

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3 minuti fa, Experienced Defender ha scritto:

What I see in this screenshot is that you have won all the (official) matches thus far. So what exactly is the problem then?

I know, I'm still Juventus in serie A so a semi decent tactic is almost enough to get good results. In Europe we struggled a bit drawing three match in UCL since then and ending in the second place behind Tottenham, now we got Liverpool to beat to go on. My problem was and is the AM C role for which I'm still not convinced and as I said in the opening post we're getting too many shots against and sometimes it seems to me that luck is helping us a little too much so I was asking for some advice on how to strengthen the defense. In general, what do you think about this system? You who give advice to everyone give me some too!😀😉

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On 27/12/2019 at 11:27, sovy666 said:

Tactic.thumb.png.ca2d8dbd53b8ba85448968e01a0e20e8.png

 

On 27/12/2019 at 17:58, sovy666 said:

Tactic.thumb.png.b47c7cd96c7776ef542842c00eaa360f.png

 

7 minutes ago, sovy666 said:

In general, what do you think about this system? You who give advice to everyone give me some too!

For now, I can only tell you that both these tactics (from the above screenshots) are too conservative (defensive if you will) for a top team like Juve (in fact, the strongest team in Italy without a doubt). 

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10 ore fa, Experienced Defender ha scritto:

For now, I can only tell you that both these tactics (from the above screenshots) are too conservative (defensive if you will) for a top team like Juve (in fact, the strongest team in Italy without a doubt).

Do you think @joergboehme's suggestions are in the right direction? So:

- Wb S instead of Wb D on the left

- Upfront a trio of SS, TM and AF

- High pressing and high tempo system

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8 hours ago, sovy666 said:

Wb S instead of Wb D on the left

I think that absolutely makes sense when you use a narrow formation :thup: 

 

8 hours ago, sovy666 said:

Upfront a trio of SS, TM and AF

Also makes sense, but be careful about sides. In your current setup, I would look to have the AF on the same side as the mezzala. Higuain can play as a TM, although I would prefer him much more as a DLF. But on the other hand, the footedness of your players is also something you need to take into account. Plus, while I would also play Pjanic as a DLP in this system, I would rather have him on support duty and in an outer (as opposed to central) CM position. Like this:

DLFsu    AF

SS/AMat

DLPsu   CMde   MEZsu

CWBsu/WBat  CD  CD   WBsu

 

8 hours ago, sovy666 said:

High pressing and high tempo system

High pressing not necessary if you ask me. A split block is always a better (and safer) option IMHO. Tempo depends on other instructions (including the mentality) and of course the style of play you want to implement. 

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11 minuti fa, Experienced Defender ha scritto:

the footedness of your players is also something you need to take into account

What do you mean? It's something that I've never considered.

 

14 minuti fa, Experienced Defender ha scritto:

High pressing not necessary if you ask me. A split block is always a better (and safer) option IMHO. Tempo depends on other instructions (including the mentality) and of course the style of play you want to implement.

I know you're not a fan of high pressing as a TI. For the split block I suppose it's to be applied to every player from midfield to attack except CMde. Talking about mentality I'd like to play on Positive in matches in which we are the favorites (which is most of the time) so maybe raise the tempo is not necessary as is slightly higher by default then Play out of defence, Work ball into box for In possession TI, nothing for In transition and Higher defensive line for Out of possession even if I fear the through balls over the top. I'm not sure about passing directness because with roles like SS and Mez doesn't seem to be well suited for short passing maybe better with a simple AMat and I'm not sure about both Attacking and Defensive width, for Attacking because I never know which one is the best and for Defensive theoretically would be better wide to better protect the flanks where there is more space to attack but this opens more horizontally the defense and ends up favoring attacks in the central area where we do not have a DM. Probably the best thing is to leave it on Default.

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1 hour ago, sovy666 said:

What do you mean?

The stronger foot. 

 

1 hour ago, sovy666 said:

For the split block I suppose it's to be applied to every player from midfield to attack except CMde

For now, I would start with the front 3 applying the split block. The mezzala can also be involved, but not necessarily all the time. 

 

2 hours ago, sovy666 said:

Talking about mentality I'd like to play on Positive in matches in which we are the favorites (which is most of the time) so maybe raise the tempo is not necessary as is slightly higher by default then Play out of defence, Work ball into box for In possession TI, nothing for In transition and Higher defensive line for Out of possession even if I fear the through balls over the top. I'm not sure about passing directness because with roles like SS and Mez doesn't seem to be well suited for short passing maybe better with a simple AMat and I'm not sure about both Attacking and Defensive width, for Attacking because I never know which one is the best and for Defensive theoretically would be better wide to better protect the flanks where there is more space to attack but this opens more horizontally the defense and ends up favoring attacks in the central area where we do not have a DM. Probably the best thing is to leave it on Default

Do you know what style of football you want to play? Bear in mind that Juve is the best team in Italy.

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30 minuti fa, Experienced Defender ha scritto:

The stronger foot.

I get that. Compared to my lineup, you reversed midfield and attack. Is it so you have Ronaldo on his best foot or because you think Juventus have better right footed mezzalas?

 

39 minuti fa, Experienced Defender ha scritto:

For now, I would start with the front 3 applying the split block. The mezzala can also be involved, but not necessarily all the time.

👍

39 minuti fa, Experienced Defender ha scritto:

Do you know what style of football you want to play? Bear in mind that Juve is the best team in Italy.

.I would like to play pass and move football. This is the current system following your advices, Used in an away match against Lecce and we won 3-0 with all the goals from open play 👍, I used the split block for the five roles that I mentioned before. For the next match I will try it only for the front three.

Immagine.thumb.png.b449512a59fbbedf535e8c312bb09116.png

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1 hour ago, sovy666 said:

I get that. Compared to my lineup, you reversed midfield and attack. Is it so you have Ronaldo on his best foot or because you think Juventus have better right footed mezzalas?

Primarily for Ronaldo, but also Higuain (who I think also has the right foot stronger). So the righ-footed DLF (or TM) on the left can better supply the right-footed AF on the right than the other way around. I don't know which players you use in the mezzala role anyway. Okay, I know Emre Can, but don't know others. 

 

1 hour ago, sovy666 said:

Immagine.thumb.png.b449512a59fbbedf535e8c312bb09116.png

 

1 hour ago, sovy666 said:

I would like to play pass and move football. This is the current system following your advices

Okay, this looks pretty good and sensible to me :thup: 

 

1 hour ago, sovy666 said:

Used in an away match against Lecce and we won 3-0 with all the goals from open play 👍, I used the split block for the five roles that I mentioned before. For the next match I will try it only for the front three

Good job mate, keep it up :brock:

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6 minuti fa, Experienced Defender ha scritto:

Primarily for Ronaldo, but also Higuain (who I think also has the right foot stronger). So the righ-footed DLF (or TM) on the left can better supply the right-footed AF on the right than the other way around. I don't know which players you use in the mezzala role anyway. Okay, I know Emre Can, but don't know others.

Yes, Higuain has the right foot stronger. So Dybala that is mainly left footed will not work in the DLF role in this formation? My main concern about Higuain is his PPM 'Likes to try to beat offside trap' that is in contrast with the supposed movement of a DLF and what about Mandzukic? How can I use him?

The players that I want as mezzalas are Emre Can, Ramsey and if necessary Betancour.

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3 minutes ago, sovy666 said:

So Dybala that is mainly left footed will not work in the DLF role in this formation?

No, it does not mean it won't work. He is a top-class player, so that should not be a problem. 

 

6 minutes ago, sovy666 said:

My main concern about Higuain is his PPM 'Likes to try to beat offside trap' that is in contrast with the supposed movement of a DLF

I don't think it's in contrast with DLF as a role. Because DLF is not supposed to stay deeper all the time. He also gets forward and looks to score himself when an opportunity arises, only his starting position is deeper. Roles are not one-dimensional. 

 

12 minutes ago, sovy666 said:

what about Mandzukic? How can I use him?

Based on his profile here, he can also be a good DLF. He can be a TM as well, but given that you play Dybala as DLF, i would play Mandzukic also as DLF. 

 

20 minutes ago, sovy666 said:

The players that I want as mezzalas are Emre Can, Ramsey and if necessary Betancour

All can play the role. Ramsey would be my first choice among them, Emre the second, and Betancour only if both the former two are unavailable.

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@Experienced Defender

A few questions to conclude the thread, one for the present and one for the future.

1) In a recent match against Sampdoria we drew 1-1 away from home, they played with a 4-1-4-1 flat (a parked bus) and they scored first from a corner kick and although we drew almost immediately with a nice Higuain goal in the 6 yard box after a great ball from Alex Sandro in the second half I would have liked to speed things up a bit so I tried first to raise the tempo to higher and in the last 15 minutes I removed Work ball into box also but with these modifications, we haven't created much of great chances. What would you have tried to do against a parked bus?

2) This is for the future. How would you approach a quarter or semi-final in Champion's League against a great team like Liverpool or Barcelona? Maybe changing the mentality to Balance? Maybe changing some role, for example Mez to Car? Maybe both? Maybe is better if you tell me what would you do 😀

 

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1 hour ago, sovy666 said:

In a recent match against Sampdoria we drew 1-1 away from home, they played with a 4-1-4-1 flat (a parked bus) and they scored first from a corner kick and although we drew almost immediately with a nice Higuain goal in the 6 yard box after a great ball from Alex Sandro in the second half I would have liked to speed things up a bit so I tried first to raise the tempo to higher and in the last 15 minutes I removed Work ball into box also but with these modifications, we haven't created much of great chances. What would you have tried to do against a parked bus?

Really depends on what I see happening on the pitch. In such difficult situations, when my basic tactic does not work the way it usually does due to the opposition playing style, I tend to watch the match in the full mode and carefully analyze the positioning and movement of both my and opposition players in different phases of play (the "pause" button can be useful here). There is no universal recipe, because there are various types of "parked buses", and what works against one may fail against another. Basically, you certainly have to take a bit more risk in such situations, but besides taking that bigger risk, it's also important how exactly you'll take it (will you add more runners from deep to support attacks in the final third? or swap around duties of a couple of players? or up the mentality and then possibly tweak some instructions or roles or duties? or even change the formation into one that allows you to be more adventurous in terms of roles, duties and/or mentality without compromising defensive stability too much? and so on,,,).

Speaking specifically of your 4312 narrow setup, I would first try with giving the attack duty to your CWB on the left. If that proves insufficient, the next step would be the mezzala on attack, but the AM on support. In terms of instructions, be more expressive can be used together with work ball into box so that the two would somewhat counterbalance (the effects of) each other. 

1 hour ago, sovy666 said:

This is for the future. How would you approach a quarter or semi-final in Champion's League against a great team like Liverpool or Barcelona? Maybe changing the mentality to Balance? Maybe changing some role, for example Mez to Car? Maybe both? Maybe is better if you tell me what would you do

Honestly, I cannot say that I always win this type of matches. However, my general experience is that I get better results when I either don't change my basic tactic or change it very little. So perhaps the best advice would be to start such games with your regular tactic, carefully watch the first 10-15 minutes in the full mode and see if you need to tone it down a bit or maybe there is no need for any change. Here also player selection can play an important part, especially in the midfield (I always look to have as defensively reliable players as possible in order to avoid being overrun in the midfield battle).

And remember - sometimes only a small tweak of the defensive line and LOE can make a huge difference (without touching anything else).

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@Experienced Defender

Thanks a lot, I will try your last advices when it's appropriate. Talking to you was like talking to a therapist, now I think I have clearer ideas about how I want to play FM. In the future I want to try to create a 4-1-4-1 DM Wide following the same principles and see how it goes. Thanks again and happy New Year.

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5 minutes ago, sovy666 said:

In the future I want to try to create a 4-1-4-1 DM Wide following the same principles and see how it goes

If you manage to make the narrow 4312 a success, then the 4141dm wide should really be easy to set up in the right way. Because it's the most balanced formation that exists IMHO. 

 

6 minutes ago, sovy666 said:

Thanks again and happy New Year

All the best mate,  you are always welcome :thup:

P.S; happy FM year ;)

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