Positive Possession 4231 Advice

[MrWhite09]

Hi, I'm starting a new game with Roma and looking to develop a positive possession focused 4231, but this is a formation I have played very little and so looking for some guidance. 

 

My main issue I think is around the central 2, I've gone with a DLP-D and BBM, roles which I think complement my players and shouldn't leave me too open but I'm not sure. My next step will be to test with some more games but any initial advice would help.  

[Experienced Defender]

16 hours ago, MrWhite09 said:

 

16 hours ago, MrWhite09 said:

My main issue I think is around the central 2, I've gone with a DLP-D and BBM, roles which I think complement my players and shouldn't leave me too open but I'm not sure. My next step will be to test with some more games but any initial advice would help

Focus play through the middle - unneeded.

More urgent pressing - unneeded and potentially risky.

Fairly narrow width - questionable.

[MrWhite09]

Thank you. I took some ideas from the vertical tiki-taka presets for the team instructions and I do like teams that press but will see how I go without these. 

I don’t think the fairly narrow is needed either.

I’m tempted to swap the SS for TQ (only driven by the history of Roma with Totti), I think Zaniolo could play the position (need to get home to check), but are there any other positions that may need changing to cover as I know it is a role that does less defensively?

 

 

[Experienced Defender]

47 minutes ago, MrWhite09 said:

I’m tempted to swap the SS for TQ (only driven by the history of Roma with Totti)

With TQ in AMC, I would look to have the lone striker in a simple role on attack duty - e.g. poacher or PF on attack (perhaps even TM on attack may work).

[MrWhite09]

ok, I hadn't thought that potentially the striker role would need to change. Can I ask why you would put them on an attack duty? Is that to help create space for the TQ and add penetration? I guess the TQ would not be looking to run past the striker as a SS would. 

[Johnny Ace]

52 minutes ago, MrWhite09 said:

ok, I hadn't thought that potentially the striker role would need to change. Can I ask why you would put them on an attack duty? Is that to help create space for the TQ and add penetration? I guess the TQ would not be looking to run past the striker as a SS would. 

The TQ role is more of playmaker role, he'll score goals but his main focus will be to create, I tend to think of him as a Support duty rather than Attack. He'll roam around the final third so an Attack duty striker (one that's fairly static, two roaming players is overkill) is a good partner for him to look for (theoretically )   

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, MrWhite09 said:

Can I ask why you would put them on an attack duty? Is that to help create space for the TQ and add penetration?

Yes, to add penetration and occupy defenders so that the TQ could use the space more effectively and always have an option for a killer pass. Basically what @Johnny Ace said: 

 

2 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

The TQ role is more of playmaker role, he'll score goals but his main focus will be to create, I tend to think of him as a Support duty rather than Attack. He'll roam around the final third so an Attack duty striker (one that's fairly static, two roaming players is overkill) is a good partner for him to look for (theoretically )

 

[MrWhite09]

Thank you for clarifying! I will give it a go and see what happens. 

I'm also thinking of developing a possession based 4123 as it may be a bit more defensively strong than the 4231 is and I do have the players for it, 

Out of interest Experienced Defender & Johnny Ace do you have a favourite formations for FM? 

 

[Experienced Defender]

50 minutes ago, MrWhite09 said:

Out of interest Experienced Defender & Johnny Ace do you have a favourite formations for FM? 

I don't have the real favorite one, but 4123 (i.e. 4141dm wide) happens to be the one I use most frequently. What I like about the 4123 is that it's very nicely balanced, which allows more room for maneuver with roles and duties (and can suit different styles of football equally effectively).

[MrWhite09]

This is the 4123 I will trial with Roma. From a couple of friendlies it does seem to be working ok. One change I may look at is the DLP to an AP(s) and maybe the DL to an IWB(s)

One thing I did find was in my first competitive game I ended up with only 40% possession which I would like to increase to 50% ideally, however I did win 3-0. 

 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2019 by MrWhite09

[andrisk123]

I have lately had good results by moving the DLP to the DM slot instead of the MC slot, right now I am using the following tactic (it is basically the same, but three different versions - standard offensive, very offensive, defensive):

 

[MrWhite09]

Thanks, I have been playing 4123 with my Roma team but I would like to switch back to 4231 and move the '2' to the DM could be a good option. I will see about changing the tactic and what happens when I do this. 

I have created an updated tactic and I will try a SV(A) and DLP(S) initially as the two deep DMs and a AM(S) for the 10 role. I would like to try a TQ as an alternate option here as well, although I'm concerned this could leave me a bit vulnerable. Also the Out Of Possession Instructions I'm unsure on, especially the line of defence. I know IRL Roma push up a long way but in the game I don't know how well this will work with the opposition sending long balls over the top. especially if I choose a slower CB combination. 

 

I'm also trying a variation with a Target-man and TQ to see if I can get better involvement from my strikers. Getting my forward to score consistently is proving a challenge for me in FM20. Maybe there is another role which others are having more success with

In my last match which was a 0-0 draw I had 24 shots (the majority from inside the penalty area) but only 3 were by Dzeko and he made only 9 passes. Something really isn't clicking right now. 

 

Edited December 27, 2019 by MrWhite09

[MrWhite09]

So after a couple more games this seems to be working more effectively than my starting tactic, defensively I am doing well and the SV seems to be working - but I'm not happy with it. I'm getting a decent amount of shots mainly from within the penalty area and my possession is around 55%-60%, but I am really not creating many clear cut chances (the opposition so far has created 13 more chances than I have this season) and my striker has scored 1 goal so far - something I would really like to improve.

From looking at my possession heat map and passing combinations from my last match I think my team is sitting too deep, and my TM I think is probably too isolated but I'm struggling  on how I can solve this. Possibly put the SV on Attack (or move up a tier and change role?), put the AM on Attack with the wings on Support.. 

Any advice @Experienced Defender or @Rashidi you could give to create more chances for my forward and make them much more involved would be really helpful. 

My SV is Lorenzo Pellegrini, potentially he is not well suited to this role:

 

 

[summatsupeer]

Yeah Pellegrini is good but SV is a very physical role so he might be a bit slow to get up and down the pitch and his condition could get low quickly.

My worry is you seem to be changing a lot even when you said things were working, I'd of been looking at smaller refinements.

Remember to analyse the players and not just look at the tactic.  What sort of chances is the ST good at scoring?  Are the other attackers good at creating chances for others or are they looking to score themselves?

I'd question the overlapping instructions if you want possession, it will likely end up a bit cross heavy and if your still using Kolarov hes a bit slow.  Look at your roles + duties and how they will combine and WHEN. In slower possession systems I think you need more fluid movement from support duties, making themselves available for a pass to feet rather than playing on shoulder that I think requires faster/direct/riskier style.

How good is the team at playing possession? Do they have the mental attributes to play smart football?  Or are they more physical team using pace to attack space quickly?  Not only attributes but traits, a lot of there players have risky traits like shoots from distance, tries through balls etc.

[Experienced Defender]

26 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

My worry is you seem to be changing a lot even when you said things were working, I'd of been looking at smaller refinements.

This 

[MrWhite09]

4 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

Yeah Pellegrini is good but SV is a very physical role so he might be a bit slow to get up and down the pitch and his condition could get low quickly.

My worry is you seem to be changing a lot even when you said things were working, I'd of been looking at smaller refinements.

Remember to analyse the players and not just look at the tactic.  What sort of chances is the ST good at scoring?  Are the other attackers good at creating chances for others or are they looking to score themselves?

I'd question the overlapping instructions if you want possession, it will likely end up a bit cross heavy and if your still using Kolarov hes a bit slow.  Look at your roles + duties and how they will combine and WHEN. In slower possession systems I think you need more fluid movement from support duties, making themselves available for a pass to feet rather than playing on shoulder that I think requires faster/direct/riskier style.

How good is the team at playing possession? Do they have the mental attributes to play smart football?  Or are they more physical team using pace to attack space quickly?  Not only attributes but traits, a lot of there players have risky traits like shoots from distance, tries through balls etc.

Thanks for the feedback.

Everything apart from the striker scoring was working and as I have got a bit frustrated with that I have started making more changes to see what brings him into the game e.g. having overlaps and crosses as I'm using him as a target man and his heading is very good (yet to result in a goal or an assist).

I'm going to have a few days off from the game and try again with fresh ideas.

 

 

 

[summatsupeer]

39 minutes ago, MrWhite09 said:

Thanks for the feedback.

Everything apart from the striker scoring was working and as I have got a bit frustrated with that I have started making more changes to see what brings him into the game e.g. having overlaps and crosses as I'm using him as a target man and his heading is very good (yet to result in a goal or an assist).

I'm going to have a few days off from the game and try again with fresh ideas.

A TM doesn't really fit with a possession style.  On one hand your playing a style typically that is patient and waiting for a good quality chance then on the other you want to swing a cross in which is a lower quality chance, especially if you let defences get back and organized.

Have a think about the options available to you.  What other ST players do you have? Could you address it in next transfer window? Does he have to play as TM? If want him scoring what about a simple poacher but how does that fit with the rest of the tactic, do other roles/duties need to change? Does that fit those players? 

In a system that's working it's rare to be able to add to it without losing something.  Just need to make sure your actually improving.

[Nima2708]

On 16/12/2019 at 00:22, MrWhite09 said:

Hi, I'm starting a new game with Roma and looking to develop a positive possession focused 4231, but this is a formation I have played very little and so looking for some guidance. 

 

My main issue I think is around the central 2, I've gone with a DLP-D and BBM, roles which I think complement my players and shouldn't leave me too open but I'm not sure. My next step will be to test with some more games but any initial advice would help.  

Roma is hard team , you lack that player than set up your players, a creator. Pastore is the only player in the team that can do that job,

Dzeko: If you use make sure to use him as TMS - and click on: stay in postion if you team have the ball a lot. If not he roams to the flank since the ball is there.
Zaniola: he is a great goal scoarer. MZS ore Shadow striker is great. But if you use him as a creator in tiki taka style. you Will have hard time opening the defense. If the rooms are not there he is not that kind of player.
Kolorov: If you use a winger, Kolorov is really slow. He is solid in the build up, good crosses, but is it any need to get him to high up in the field ? Kluivert is fast and great winger on the left. Kolorov should maybe be more smaller in the field and make a triangle, FBS? with crosses from deep? Dont go wide?

so if you want to keep the ball with AS Roma , you have a hard time in to ways: you only have one creator: Pastore! But you have players who comes with good runs from behind. So If Pastore dont play you should play wide, make room for these players such as Zainola, Pellegrini, and on to come with deep runs.
But then you have huge problems in the holding role. Crisiante cant hold his position as he also roams. But maybe moving Mancini as a Half Back ?