Who is afraid of the advanced rules?

[KUBI]

Just wondering, because the advanced rules are so much more powerful than the basic rules.

And no, you don't need to tick hundreds boxes and add 500 rules, you could convert a file to advanced rules and just set one new rule, like maximum of 3 foreign players or maximum of 6 loans during a season.

And you can do some really nice things like adding cup rounds divided into 2, 3 days or even a week, change tv distribution, setting up your own youth system or adding league rules for more than one league in one file.

There is next to no limit - ok, you can still not edit stadiums - and if you let one part untouched, it will be also untouched in your game. 

[Schume]

I haven't used them since FM17 now due to work and my own football commitments, the biggest killer is the basic stuff like setting all the leagues and teams up correctly as it is still weak from Step 5 (Level 9) down, all the regional boundaries for teams, leagues and so on (I always recommend to save a file with this work done before doing any advanced rules it saves time in the long run). I think the thing that puts most folk off is it is time consuming to get what you want, and it does require trial and error at times and patience to work through each of the challenges, however it is the best way to get everything spot on particularly when trying to replicate the English NLS down to level correctly, if you want to play on a database that is accurate, the basic rules just don't cut it.

I found it was great in cup competitions for example I could regionalise the preliminary and qualifying rounds in FA Competitions as they do in real life (FM20 in its raw format doesn't even manage that surprisingly which is disappointing to be frank). It is also very useful to do the discipline rules for each competitions as per current FA Rules & Regulations for the various steps, particularly as they are competition specific these days (I've noticed the FA Cup on FM20 has not been amended to the adjusted rules in the 19-20 season as well!).

I've actually kept my spreadsheet from last time where I documented each screen/step process, as I'm hoping to have another go this time round. However, the complexity has doubled due to the final major restructure of the English NLS at the end of the current season. I don't know if it is going to be possible to achieve and if that is the case then I may have to wait until FM21 when I know the structure is set and in place and more straight forward to achieve.

[ratio1618]

I love the advanced editor really its accomplishing when you set up something weird and it verifies and works and its great when theres a problem and you are tracing things back and using process of elimination to find issues.

However i feel for most normal users basic needs some more options that are only in advanced when they really dont need to be. Also hardcoded database European continentals need to be able to dynamically change based on what you set in a new league (for example Lithuanias A-league and how its Scottish like 6 team split is the decider for euro spots, atm it just takes from the league becuase i assume thats what the default Euro cont rules tell ti to do)

But overall i love wrangling with that beast, But more people need to get into editing its a very small and sometimes lonely community and the basic editor could be plumped up a bit.

Like i literally bought Fm20 on beta drop day and havnae started a save yet. Waited for the editor and ive just been fleshing out OFC and New Zealand. I love it

[Bigpole]

I think the suitable word is intimidated, not afraid.

Advanced rules are great, but the problem with them is they are complicated and nomenclature used in advanced rules is simply different than 'usual' language. Like fate actions, child competition, hidden stage, you don't use it in everyday language dont you

[ratio1618]

oNE THING I DONT GET STILL AFTER 2 YEARS IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN cONTINENTAL QUALIFICATION RULES AND LEAGUE FATE ACTIONS WHEN IT COMES TO (caps whoops) Continental qualification.

[ratio1618]

i think what would be nice is for someone from the team that maintians the editor to make a Youtube video that explains alot of the options and boxes. SI have a growing social media presence for the game itself surely they can get one of the guys who knows the editor inside and out to make a tutorial video

[sporadicsmiles]

3 hours ago, KUBI said:

adding league rules for more than one league in one file.

I particularly love it for this. It saves a great deal of effort when creating updates for multiple leagues at once. Especially if you are not doing anything particularly difficult and can just adapt rules from the basic. 

I think the biggest reason it is scary for some is that it is so... overwhelming when you are new to it. I am very used to it now, I have been using it since we could first unlock it. So I understand more or less what I am doing. I have been able to create some pretty complex stuff over the years. An NFL-style structure probably being the most complex thing I tried. But learning it is a pain, and there is not all that much documentation. This is where a thread explaining how to do some basic things that you would commonly use the advanced editor for would be very welcome. 

[KUBI]

I think we could try to do a community tutorial for the advanced rules. Just add some of the most important tasks and some more exciting ones.

[ratio1618]

Also if you could explain how to change continental rules for whacky comps (for example Lithuania splitting into another legaue and picking qualifiers from there) Explains the "qualification system number" Fate actions vs Continental qualifier.

Becuase mostly unless you live in OFC and have to recreate the broken OFC CL every year you are wrangling with default hardocded Continental rules and some people have toruble making it pick from a different stage than teh typical stage0 league.

[alian62]

5 hours ago, Schume said:

I haven't used them since FM17 now due to work and my own football commitments, the biggest killer is the basic stuff like setting all the leagues and teams up correctly as it is still weak from Step 5 (Level 9) down, all the regional boundaries for teams, leagues and so on (I always recommend to save a file with this work done before doing any advanced rules it saves time in the long run). I think the thing that puts most folk off is it is time consuming to get what you want, and it does require trial and error at times and patience to work through each of the challenges, however it is the best way to get everything spot on particularly when trying to replicate the English NLS down to level correctly, if you want to play on a database that is accurate, the basic rules just don't cut it.

I found it was great in cup competitions for example I could regionalise the preliminary and qualifying rounds in FA Competitions as they do in real life (FM20 in its raw format doesn't even manage that surprisingly which is disappointing to be frank). It is also very useful to do the discipline rules for each competitions as per current FA Rules & Regulations for the various steps, particularly as they are competition specific these days (I've noticed the FA Cup on FM20 has not been amended to the adjusted rules in the 19-20 season as well!).

I've actually kept my spreadsheet from last time where I documented each screen/step process, as I'm hoping to have another go this time round. However, the complexity has doubled due to the final major restructure of the English NLS at the end of the current season. I don't know if it is going to be possible to achieve and if that is the case then I may have to wait until FM21 when I know the structure is set and in place and more straight forward to achieve.

You should share your spreadsheet . Would be very helpful for others

[Weiry]

57 minutes ago, KUBI said:

I think we could try to do a community tutorial for the advanced rules. Just add some of the most important tasks and some more exciting ones.

That would be great! It would be nice if users could also send in some questions/requests as well. 

[ratio1618]

13 minutes ago, Weiry said:

That would be great! It would be nice if users could also send in some questions/requests as well. 

Yeh this is smart. Make a thread for questions people have about advanced editor. then remove duplicates and simmer it all down to a reasonable ammount of answers to give then hand it off to the dev team.

[TheGame32]

5 hours ago, Bigpole said:

I think the suitable word is intimidated, not afraid.

Advanced rules are great, but the problem with them is they are complicated and nomenclature used in advanced rules is simply different than 'usual' language. Like fate actions, child competition, hidden stage, you don't use it in everyday language dont you

 I am inclined to agree with the first statement, its more intimidating then scary. The first time I used the editor (was I think either 14 or 15), I only used it to add my sons. But curiosity got the better of me and as the years progressed, I started dabbling in it more and more. Now, before I start the game it self, I set up my own custom database (with some of my old-school favorite players, some club legends, my own custom team with stadium and all, and edit a few advanced rules). I am no master at it, like, at all (as is evidenced with one of my more recent questions), but I am having fun messing about with it. It is truly amazing all the things I could add, removed and/or alter.

[KUBI]

You all can add content to this thread:

 

[ratio1618]

1 minute ago, KUBI said:

You all can add content to this thread:

 

Like our own tutorials/guides on different things or just questions?

[ratio1618]

Problem is with the COntinental rules thread linked there is that its a bit different this year and in a different spot.

[KUBI]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb ratio1618:

Like our own tutorials/guides on different things or just questions?

No questions, just everything that could be helpful for those who want to use advanced rules the first time.

[KUBI]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb ratio1618:

Problem is with the COntinental rules thread linked there is that its a bit different this year and in a different spot.

Do you have a link?

[ratio1618]

No not atm its jsut back then you did continentals with the teams in the stage drop down not its under "other stage rules"

Now there extra options and stuff. I can try make threads tomorrow NZT about different features to add for sure though.

[nine_iron]

I can barely use the basic editor... 

I had a look and then decided to leave alone until I really needed them.

I have found ways of doing things I need in the basic editor but will probably explore the advanced editor once I have a stable edit using the basic side.

[tariq13]

I think the best word is frustrated by the advanced rules. I'll be honest with you, I play Football Manager to play in MLS because no other game incorporates all the real-life rules. However, the way MLS is set up, you need to add the lower divisions so that your reserve players can play for their USL team and your academy players can play in an actual league. In years past, I notice a difference with player development if you actually run the lower leagues instead of just simulating them in the background.

The only way to really get the lower divisions right is with the advanced rules, but they never work. The simplest of things go wrong. Every year, I buy FM on the day it comes out, I spend months trying to create the lower divisions, get frustrated, and I barely end up playing the actual game. The advanced rules are nice in theory, but I find you can't actually do any of the things you need to do. Nothing ever works. And given the lack of support from SI, it's impossible to figure things out. Even right now, I'm trying to do something very simple with the advanced rules and it's not working. I have no idea why. There's no logical reason for it.

So not afraid of advanced rules, just extremely frustrated by them.

[Wolf_pd]

Right now I am only a basic Advanced Rules users. If it works, I am happy. If it doesn't work, I am praying some of the smart guys have a good explanation how to do it

[KUBI]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb tariq13:

IThe only way to really get the lower divisions right is with the advanced rules, but they never work. The simplest of things go wrong. Every year, I buy FM on the day it comes out, I spend months trying to create the lower divisions, get frustrated, and I barely end up playing the actual game. The advanced rules are nice in theory, but I find you can't actually do any of the things you need to do. Nothing ever works. And given the lack of support from SI, it's impossible to figure things out. Even right now, I'm trying to do something very simple with the advanced rules and it's not working. I have no idea why. There's no logical reason for it.

Can you explain what exactly does not work? Most of the time there is a logical reason, why something does not work, you just need to find it.

[tariq13]

30 minutes ago, KUBI said:

Can you explain what exactly does not work? Most of the time there is a logical reason, why something does not work, you just need to find it.

At the moment I'm trying to create the second division in the United States (in game known as the United States Soccer League Division One). The league structure is this; a regular season consisting of two groups of 18 teams. The top 10 teams make the playoffs for their respective conference. The winner of each conference plays a championship. I can get 10 teams in the eastern conference to get a league fate of qualified after Stage 0 (regular season/group stage) and move on to State 1 (eastern conference playoffs). For some reason, I cannot get the top 10 teams in the western conference get a league fate of qualified, which means no teams are being added to Stage 2 (western conference playoffs). The qualification settings are exactly the same for each group except for any reference to the eastern conference changed to the western conference and any reference to Stage 1 changed to Stage 2. It doesn't make sense that the settings for one group will not work for the second group. I've attached the file. I really appreciate your help because I've been stuck on this for a while now.

test6.fmf

[Luke Cro]

My main issue with advanced editor is - that it is really, really slow... I don't know is performance fixed by now... There are many good features there and for some of them, tutorial would be nice...
However, I believe that advanced editor is bugged, like rest of editor - for example, I got error while verifying nation rules regarding promotion and relegation, although everything seems to be set up correctly...

[KUBI]

vor 27 Minuten schrieb tariq13:

At the moment I'm trying to create the second division in the United States (in game known as the United States Soccer League Division One). The league structure is this; a regular season consisting of two groups of 18 teams. The top 10 teams make the playoffs for their respective conference. The winner of each conference plays a championship. I can get 10 teams in the eastern conference to get a league fate of qualified after Stage 0 (regular season/group stage) and move on to State 1 (eastern conference playoffs). For some reason, I cannot get the top 10 teams in the western conference get a league fate of qualified, which means no teams are being added to Stage 2 (western conference playoffs). The qualification settings are exactly the same for each group except for any reference to the eastern conference changed to the western conference and any reference to Stage 1 changed to Stage 2. It doesn't make sense that the settings for one group will not work for the second group. I've attached the file. I really appreciate your help because I've been stuck on this for a while now.

test6.fmf 36 kB · 1 download

In the stage 0 - group rules shouldn't it be 20 clubs to get promoted? 

[Schume]

18 hours ago, prot651 said:

You should share your spreadsheet . Would be very helpful for others

Will be more than happy too! Firstly I need to ensure it is still relevant for the current edition first, as it is 3 years out of date and I'll need to try to adjust it for the current English NLS . I could do with adding comments to it to try explain what each section does where I know the answers.

It might also help where I've not managed things and it can be turned on it's head to get answers myself.

I've got a very long away trip to Morpeth Town (weather permitting) on Saturday so I'll see what I can do on the coach trip (about 10 hours there and back plenty of time!) and make a proper start with at least adding Level 7 and 8 and seeing how things work in FM20 Editor.

[Jas80]

I want to edit registration rules for Champions League & Europa League, but I don't know how to get the advanced rules

[dim13]

I only use Advanced Rules and never Basic Rules.   Would never go back to Basic.  If the Advanced Rules ever become unavailable in future versions, I would no longer purchase FM,

The best way to learn is to look at other files as samples and by trial and error.

[tariq13]

3 hours ago, KUBI said:

In the stage 0 - group rules shouldn't it be 20 clubs to get promoted? 

Thanks for pointing that out. That was leftover when I was messing with things to try to get the qualification to work. The setting was supposed to be on "Qualification" and not "Promotion". However, even setting it to "Qualification" doesn't change anything. In the USA, no teams get promoted or relegated, so this league doesn't have any promotion or relegation. I got rid of the extra fate places option since it wasn't doing anything to help.

Edited December 5, 2019 by tariq13

[KUBI]

vor 1 Minute schrieb tariq13:

Thanks for pointing that out. That was leftover when I was messing with things to try to get the qualification to work. The setting was supposed to be on "Qualification" and not "Promotion". However, even setting it to "Qualification" doesn't change anything. In the USA, no teams get promoted or relegated, so this league doesn't have any promotion or relegation.

Yes, but to qualify for the next stage you need 20 teams and not 10 to fill up east and west.

[tariq13]

1 minute ago, KUBI said:

Yes, but to qualify for the next stage you need 20 teams and not 10 to fill up east and west.

Oh I see what you're saying. Okay, I just set it to 20 teams and the option to Qualification but it still didn't change anything.

[tariq13]

32 minutes ago, KUBI said:

Yes, but to qualify for the next stage you need 20 teams and not 10 to fill up east and west.

Okay, so I set these options for extra league fate and it's finally setting qualification in the western conference. Although now I have a new problem in that it's not giving a qualification fate to any team that's affiliated with an MLS team. It's weird. I'm not sure what setting would be preventing that.

[KUBI]

I guess this is something similar like "B teams can qualify or promote" in European leagues. There must be something in the overall league settings that will allow this. I don't have the editor open atm, so I can just guess. Another question is, is there no qualification for next stage, just qualification?

[ratio1618]

Thanks heaps for helping people out Kubi, we need more pros like you here to help people out.

Are you aware of how ranking levels affect Qualifcation spots? 

In this thread we were working out how to get teams from a 6 team post league split to qualify for continentals and it was fixed using ranking info. We are confused as to whether a latter stage is the final ranking stage even though tage0league has ranking set. The thread explains alot of our confusion

[Death Ball]

I just began yesterday a video series about learning the advanced editor as a way to learn it myself and leave something that can be used by other people to learn. Since I've done it myself I feel a bit iffy linking it as if it was just for self promotion, but it also feels dumb to be doing something to learn and, hopefully, teach other players who may want to get their hands dirty with it and not mention it here. Just do a youtube search for FM20 learning advanced editor.

The first chapter is just sort of a prologue in which I prepare the file. Second will be a look at the advanced rules and then the third will be when I begin to work on it. The way to learn is that I'll record as I try to set up the Spanish Tercera División with the promotion system as it is in reality (explained in this first chapter), which can't be done in the base editor.

LOL, after posting I realize there's now an advanced rules subforum.

[ratio1618]

9 minutes ago, Death Ball said:

I just began yesterday a video series about learning the advanced editor as a way to learn it myself and leave something that can be used by other people to learn. Since I've done it myself I feel a bit iffy linking it as if it was just for self promotion, but it also feels dumb to be doing something to learn and, hopefully, teach other players who may want to get their hands dirty with it and not mention it here. Just do a youtube search for FM20 learning advanced editor.

The first chapter is just sort of a prologue in which I prepare the file. Second will be a look at the advanced rules and then the third will be when I begin to work on it. The way to learn is that I'll record as I try to set up the Spanish Tercera División with the promotion system as it is in reality (explained in this first chapter), which can't be done in the base editor.

LOL, after posting I realize there's now an advanced rules subforum.

I reckon link it here or somewhere, noone has made FM editor content since 2016 on Youtube and im sure Kuba nad the lads might give you a pass if its informative and might help some people and reduce their workload.

[Schume]

5 hours ago, Schume said:

Will be more than happy too! Firstly I need to ensure it is still relevant for the current edition first, as it is 3 years out of date and I'll need to try to adjust it for the current English NLS . I could do with adding comments to it to try explain what each section does where I know the answers.

It might also help where I've not managed things and it can be turned on it's head to get answers myself.

I've got a very long away trip to Morpeth Town (weather permitting) on Saturday so I'll see what I can do on the coach trip (about 10 hours there and back plenty of time!) and make a proper start with at least adding Level 7 and 8 and seeing how things work in FM20 Editor.

I've had a brief go at creating an England 8 Level system using advanced editor using my old spreadsheet as my guide, and a lot of it is still very much the same thankfully. A few changes in the mix and just got to sort a couple of gremlins I'm rusty using the editor. Early signs are I might be able to do something decent, then share my work.

That said looks like the Discipline rules are still out of date after 3 to 4 years which is very disappointing, so it is not possible to replicate the exact rules or Step 3 and 4 (Level 7 & 8) and the new FA Cup/Trophy cards system for 19-20 season onwards.

[tariq13]

3 hours ago, KUBI said:

I guess this is something similar like "B teams can qualify or promote" in European leagues. There must be something in the overall league settings that will allow this. I don't have the editor open atm, so I can just guess. Another question is, is there no qualification for next stage, just qualification?

I've looked though all the settings now just to double check and I can't seem to find what the problem is. I see options that say "B/Reserve teams can't qualify" but nothing that says they can qualify. Also, this isn't happening in the other group (eastern conference). The MLS B teams are qualifying for the playoff stage, so I'm not sure what's difference between the two groups' settings right now.

[Carlito85]

I always struggled with areas such as coefficients and certain aspects of qualification (although these may just be bugs that have never been addressed). I was never able to get coefficients working with my own competitions, though in previous years we had the option to combine with rules in code - that seems to have been removed now by the looks of it. Additionally, it seems like we can't link our competitions to domestic leagues so that it tells you how many teams will qualify from each country in that league's rules page.

The nation rules editing looks quite a task as well as I've never created any domestic leagues before, just continental competitions.

[Death Ball]

11 hours ago, ratio1618 said:

I reckon link it here or somewhere, noone has made FM editor content since 2016 on Youtube and im sure Kuba nad the lads might give you a pass if its informative and might help some people and reduce their workload.

Ok, here's the link to the playlist: after youtube.com/ paste this: playlist?list=PLakty8iQFIBQ92D-wfFGFiNal3kP-t_PB (The full link embeds the first video it seems).

 

[alian62]

2 hours ago, Death Ball said:

Ok, here's the link to the playlist: after youtube.com/ paste this: playlist?list=PLakty8iQFIBQ92D-wfFGFiNal3kP-t_PB (The full link embeds the first video it seems).

 

MMM I fell asleep !!!

 

[Wolf_pd]

14 hours ago, ratio1618 said:

I reckon link it here or somewhere, noone has made FM editor content since 2016 on Youtube and im sure Kuba nad the lads might give you a pass if its informative and might help some people and reduce their workload.

 

3 hours ago, Death Ball said:

Ok, here's the link to the playlist: after youtube.com/ paste this: playlist?list=PLakty8iQFIBQ92D-wfFGFiNal3kP-t_PB (The full link embeds the first video it seems).

No issue with it, since purpose is clearly helping people get started with Advanced Rules 

[ratio1618]

6 hours ago, Wolf_pd said:

 

No issue with it, since purpose is clearly helping people get started with Advanced Rules 

What a bunch of lads, im so proud of this community.

 

[DJ Sir Matthew]

I've started using the editor since this week and jumped right into advanced rules (once @Wolf_pd pointed me in the right direction) with the aim to try and create the announced changes for the Belgian competition. It's one of the most complex competition structures, if not the most, in the football world.

Alas, there are so many strange and illogical things happening I'm starting to give up. I have a strong feeling many things aren't set up properly in the game rules themselves which doesn't make editing anything better. To give an example: the top tier, Jupiler Pro League, has 2 set of rules in the game, one called Jupiler Pro League (Belgian Pro League from 2016/17) and one called Jupiler Pro League (Euro Teams). The former has start year 2016 and even just changing that to 2019 make the test fail (competition did not end in time). The Euro Teams doesn't have a start year and I have a feeling it is actually an old rules part that stayed in the game but has no meaning. Moreover, in the 2nd tier, Proximus League, there are 2 identical stages 3 (Relegation Playoff) who are complete identical with 1 exception: one has 2 teams , the other has 1 team. Why have a league with 1 team is beyond me for now.

I applaud the thread made by Kubi, but find it doesn't help me in any way. I wonder if SI never made a manual or reference guide for internal use for new employees working with the editor? Even a clear description of what every line does would be welcomed (the description in the editor, if they do pop-up, are often too brief imho). Also some examples of how a competition in the game is "translated/created" into the editor would be very handy. There can be different examples of different complexity. 

I'll have a look at the Youtube videos tomorrow as I don't have any time left today. I hope @Schume will share his spreadsheet. Even incomplete, slightly outdated information can contain nuggets of gold that might help an colleague-editor?

[Unknown Hacker]

10 hours ago, DJ Sir Matthew said:

I've started using the editor since this week and jumped right into advanced rules (once @Wolf_pd pointed me in the right direction) with the aim to try and create the announced changes for the Belgian competition. It's one of the most complex competition structures, if not the most, in the football world.

Alas, there are so many strange and illogical things happening I'm starting to give up. I have a strong feeling many things aren't set up properly in the game rules themselves which doesn't make editing anything better. To give an example: the top tier, Jupiler Pro League, has 2 set of rules in the game, one called Jupiler Pro League (Belgian Pro League from 2016/17) and one called Jupiler Pro League (Euro Teams). The former has start year 2016 and even just changing that to 2019 make the test fail (competition did not end in time). The Euro Teams doesn't have a start year and I have a feeling it is actually an old rules part that stayed in the game but has no meaning. Moreover, in the 2nd tier, Proximus League, there are 2 identical stages 3 (Relegation Playoff) who are complete identical with 1 exception: one has 2 teams , the other has 1 team. Why have a league with 1 team is beyond me for now.

I applaud the thread made by Kubi, but find it doesn't help me in any way. I wonder if SI never made a manual or reference guide for internal use for new employees working with the editor? Even a clear description of what every line does would be welcomed (the description in the editor, if they do pop-up, are often too brief imho). Also some examples of how a competition in the game is "translated/created" into the editor would be very handy. There can be different examples of different complexity. 

I'll have a look at the Youtube videos tomorrow as I don't have any time left today. I hope @Schume will share his spreadsheet. Even incomplete, slightly outdated information can contain nuggets of gold that might help an colleague-editor?

Editing Belgium is tough and it's not something that I've done a lot of, however I can answer a couple of your queries.

With regard to the Jupiler League you need to be editing the 'Euro Teams' version as that is the version that the game runs. Even though there's no start year it's set up to run every year when Belgium has over 3 continental cup places (which it always will unless you edit the European competitions). In fact I was able to delete the other version of the Jupiler League rules from the list section of the advanced rules and everything validated perfectly (although I'm not sure if that has any other unwanted effects).

With regard to the Proximus League I was also able to delete the 1 team Stage 3 from the rules without it impacting on verification at all. I'm genuinely not sure what purpose this stage has so removing it may have some implications but I couldn't see any when I tested the file in the editor.

The only way that you can begin to understand the advanced rules, particularly when working in a unique league system like Belgium's, is to go through every section of the rules and try and work out what things mean and how they work. Then try changing things and see how the competitions run and if they verify. Eventually you'll find things much more intuitive but it'll take a while.

[alian62]

11 hours ago, DJ Sir Matthew said:

I've started using the editor since this week and jumped right into advanced rules (once @Wolf_pd pointed me in the right direction) with the aim to try and create the announced changes for the Belgian competition. It's one of the most complex competition structures, if not the most, in the football world.

Alas, there are so many strange and illogical things happening I'm starting to give up. I have a strong feeling many things aren't set up properly in the game rules themselves which doesn't make editing anything better. To give an example: the top tier, Jupiler Pro League, has 2 set of rules in the game, one called Jupiler Pro League (Belgian Pro League from 2016/17) and one called Jupiler Pro League (Euro Teams). The former has start year 2016 and even just changing that to 2019 make the test fail (competition did not end in time). The Euro Teams doesn't have a start year and I have a feeling it is actually an old rules part that stayed in the game but has no meaning. Moreover, in the 2nd tier, Proximus League, there are 2 identical stages 3 (Relegation Playoff) who are complete identical with 1 exception: one has 2 teams , the other has 1 team. Why have a league with 1 team is beyond me for now.

I applaud the thread made by Kubi, but find it doesn't help me in any way. I wonder if SI never made a manual or reference guide for internal use for new employees working with the editor? Even a clear description of what every line does would be welcomed (the description in the editor, if they do pop-up, are often too brief imho). Also some examples of how a competition in the game is "translated/created" into the editor would be very handy. There can be different examples of different complexity. 

I'll have a look at the Youtube videos tomorrow as I don't have any time left today. I hope @Schume will share his spreadsheet. Even incomplete, slightly outdated information can contain nuggets of gold that might help an colleague-editor?

Start small ?  Just make 1 league of any country and get to know how the editor works . Then add a cup . Then reserves and then youth leagues . Just grow it until you understand it . Another good way is to download an already made Database and see how its done . Or downloaded an older created database from FM19 or 18 or 17 and if you have those games you can load them up and copy what they did in your own version .

[DJ Sir Matthew]

5 hours ago, Unknown Hacker said:

Editing Belgium is tough and it's not something that I've done a lot of, however I can answer a couple of your queries.

With regard to the Jupiler League you need to be editing the 'Euro Teams' version as that is the version that the game runs. Even though there's no start year it's set up to run every year when Belgium has over 3 continental cup places (which it always will unless you edit the European competitions). In fact I was able to delete the other version of the Jupiler League rules from the list section of the advanced rules and everything validated perfectly (although I'm not sure if that has any other unwanted effects).

With regard to the Proximus League I was also able to delete the 1 team Stage 3 from the rules without it impacting on verification at all. I'm genuinely not sure what purpose this stage has so removing it may have some implications but I couldn't see any when I tested the file in the editor.

The only way that you can begin to understand the advanced rules, particularly when working in a unique league system like Belgium's, is to go through every section of the rules and try and work out what things mean and how they work. Then try changing things and see how the competitions run and if they verify. Eventually you'll find things much more intuitive but it'll take a while.

I actually did the other thing and deleted the 'Euro Teams' version because the stages of the 2016/17 version were set up correctly (according to last year's rules, especially looking at how the European Places Playoff is setup) while Euro Teams wasn't (will double check later to see if my memory is failing me). Also when just validating the original rules, I noticed the 2016/17 rules were used to simulate the competitions. Which makes sense since it starts from 2016 so it should take precendence over a set of rules that has no start year (which would then be used in historical version made by users)

Same with the double stage 3, deleted the 1 team version. And validation kept working. When I then duplicated the rules and set start and end year (not touching anything else) strange things started to happen. While the rules still validated until 2025, I noticed that only a few years were run of the Jupiler Pro League and for example in 2019-20 the rules that were set to start in 2021 and end in 2022 were used? I think SI should or clean up the rules a bit or clarify more clearly which rules are for history purposes only for example. That would help a lot.

@alian62  Starting small you can see in 2 ways: start from scratch like you recommend (make 1 new league, create a cup etc) or, like I thought, make some minor adjustments to an existing structure. Which I did, I started with only changing the number of promotion and relegation spots, changed the Play-Off structures (for example in Jupiler Pro League there are 2 play-offs : Championship and European Places. The latter is a group structure with 12 teams leading to 2 other stages that are played as cup) where I changed European Places to a league with 4 teams as of this year. All worked and validated fine. It's only when I started to duplicate (and uniquely naming every rules differently to avoid confusion) because some rules revert back within 1 or 2 years' time that things began to go south. Still validating but running competitions only every 2 year orso. Will have another look if flexible rules vs fixed rules makes any difference.

EDIT: Oh btw, if you know what else they have planned, I'm actually starting small. Unless it's easy to implement having an U23 team (which don't exist in the game, only U21) at the 2nd tier for only 1 year... 

Edited August 28, 2020 by DJ Sir Matthew

[Unknown Hacker]

4 hours ago, DJ Sir Matthew said:

I actually did the other thing and deleted the 'Euro Teams' version because the stages of the 2016/17 version were set up correctly (according to last year's rules, especially looking at how the European Places Playoff is setup) while Euro Teams wasn't (will double check later to see if my memory is failing me). Also when just validating the original rules, I noticed the 2016/17 rules were used to simulate the competitions. Which makes sense since it starts from 2016 so it should take precendence over a set of rules that has no start year (which would then be used in historical version made by users)

Same with the double stage 3, deleted the 1 team version. And validation kept working. When I then duplicated the rules and set start and end year (not touching anything else) strange things started to happen. While the rules still validated until 2025, I noticed that only a few years were run of the Jupiler Pro League and for example in 2019-20 the rules that were set to start in 2021 and end in 2022 were used? I think SI should or clean up the rules a bit or clarify more clearly which rules are for history purposes only for example. That would help a lot.

As I said, the editor (and thus FM also) uses the Euro Teams set of rules. You can tell because when you run a test of the Belgian leagues in the editor (using the test competitions feature) the editor tells you that it's using the Euro Teams set of rules. As far as I'm aware the only difference between the two sets of rules is that the Euro Teams version has additional helpers set up to account for changing European places while the 2016/17 version doesn't. You can edit any version you want but editing the 2016/17 version misses out on some settings.

Regarding the 'Start Year' stuff, it doesn't matter that one set of rules has a 2016 start date and the other set doesn't. The 2016 start date simply reflects the year when that set of rules was programmed. The setting that actually matters is the tickbox underneath that says 'Valid Years'. If you look at the Euro Teams version you'll see that it's valid when there's between 3 and 7 continental cup qualifiers. Since Belgium will always have between 3 and 7 continental cup qualifiers this set of rules will always override the other set of rules and make the start year setting redundant.

As for your issues when duplicating rules and changing start years, without looking through your file I'm not sure what could be causing that.

[DJ Sir Matthew]

18 hours ago, Unknown Hacker said:

As I said, the editor (and thus FM also) uses the Euro Teams set of rules. You can tell because when you run a test of the Belgian leagues in the editor (using the test competitions feature) the editor tells you that it's using the Euro Teams set of rules. As far as I'm aware the only difference between the two sets of rules is that the Euro Teams version has additional helpers set up to account for changing European places while the 2016/17 version doesn't. You can edit any version you want but editing the 2016/17 version misses out on some settings.

Regarding the 'Start Year' stuff, it doesn't matter that one set of rules has a 2016 start date and the other set doesn't. The 2016 start date simply reflects the year when that set of rules was programmed. The setting that actually matters is the tickbox underneath that says 'Valid Years'. If you look at the Euro Teams version you'll see that it's valid when there's between 3 and 7 continental cup qualifiers. Since Belgium will always have between 3 and 7 continental cup qualifiers this set of rules will always override the other set of rules and make the start year setting redundant.

As for your issues when duplicating rules and changing start years, without looking through your file I'm not sure what could be causing that.

Ok, just double checked it and you are right, it is the Euro Teams that is currently being used, my bad. 

So are you saying that you can't use "start year" and "end year" to limit a set of rules to one season for example but you have to program it through "valid years"? And how do you limit a set of rules to 1 season via "valid years" because I don't see that option within 'valid years'?