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"FM20" trying to create a 4-1-4-1 dm wide.any advice would be helpfull


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hello guys im trying to builld this tactic with Salernitana and this is my shape and roles im trying to make it work

image.thumb.png.a65fb2f8654191b13878d310b1053475.png

 Let me explain my thinking

Mentality: Balanced,i choose this because its neutral and i have 3 players upfront,so i dont want compress the space more higher.i want these 3 players to have space in front of them to use it and draw the defence more out.

In possesion: i picked only play Wide because i want my team be more wide when attacking trying to strech a more bit the opposition and use a bit whole the pitch.

In transition:i picked counter why i want when we win the ball to attack immediately and with balance mentality i will be sitting more deep so i can take advantage of space.Now i didnt choose counter press because i dont want press when i loose the ball firstly i dont have hard workers players and dont want leave gaps in my shape.im in serie b afterall and predicted 9th.dont have strong squad at the moment.Also i picked my GK to take short kicks to whatever choice he thinks.i dont have comfortable defenders to pick them or play out of defence.

Out of possesion:and finally out of possesion just added more press because i dont want to be completely pathetic at marking.and with balanced mentality im sitting a bit deep so thats why.if i would choose positive mentality maybe my team could press more but this would have as result in possesion my team would be more higher in the pitch and more risky but i dont want this.

These are about my TIs and now let me tell you about roles decision.

after saw my  players decided this would be the shape we will play,i have nice LB with nice crossing,good mentals and good physical atts that i wanted to see in pitch thats why added him as FB-A to get forward and cross often.

in midfield im quite speptical how to build nice combos and my players in my team i could have opted a playmaker but i dont want a ball magnet and disturb my attacking play.so i opted for a simple DM-de to protect my def line,press a bit and help in possesion

i chosen carilero in left side to cover my attacking FB and also this player has nice long shots and PPM shoots with power and shoots from distance which surely get some goal in season

now on the right side i picked a simple CM-sup to be all rounder like defending supporting the wing,recycle possesion and most impontantly dont get in the same way of my IF-At.thats why i didnt use a more deep attacking player

now on attcking TRIO i want my IF to be my goalscorer so i've chosen a PF-sup upfront and the reason is he doesnt have move into channels hardcoded.i dont want my ST moves wide,want him centrally to keeps DCs with ,drops a bit and leave space for my IF to operate and get in chances

and on the left side i picked and IW-sup because my players are capable with these atts and also wanted him to drift inside and make space for FB-At.

 

Well this is my thinking and also IF and IW has sit narrower and tight marking as PIs

any advice or thinking would be thankful :) 

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I'm glad to see that you have an idea of how you would like the team to play as that is a good starting point when trying to build a tactic. I'll try and offer some advice based around my personal preferences but would urge you to watch some matches in detail and see if the theory of how you want the team to play is coming to life. If it isn't, you need to decide whether it's a personnel issue or a tactical issue. If you are still stuck then posting some .pkms on here with some information about what you want to see at particular points in the game should help.

With regards to:

Mentality - I don't know whether I'd use the word neutral to describe it necessarily as the Balanced mentality still comes with a load of hard coded instructions, the only difference being they are all in the middle setting. As the team is expected to finish in mid-table you will face a variety of different approaches from the AI. When facing teams near the bottom of the table they might refuse to be drawn out so you are going to have to formulate a plan B for when this happens.

In possession instructions - Everything should be done with a purpose and sound reasoning behind it. For e.g. Playing with more width in an attempt to pull the defending fullbacks wider so that space is opened in the channels, in the middle or on the opposite flank. Having good width is a means to an end not the end goal in of itself.

In transition instructions - If an opposition over commits men forward and you turnover possession you will trigger a counter attack anyway without needing to select the TI. By selecting the TI you have instructed the team to try and counter every single time you win possession even when it isn't really on. Try the TI out but I can see it becoming problematic should you start to do well in the league. As for your instruction to tell the GK to take short kicks, if your defenders aren't comfortable in playing out from the back then why would you want the GK playing the ball to them? None of your midfielders are going to drop deep enough to be a viable passing option so the ball will be passed to the defenders.

Out of possession instructions - In addition to the intensity of the press you also need to decide when and where you would like the team to attempt to win the ball back.

Roles and duties

GK and Central Defenders - Nothing out of the ordinary there.

FB (A) - As you have identified this player as the one to provide width on your left flank you need to observe him in match to see whether he is regularly getting forward, how he links up with the IW in front of him and if he is supplying crosses into the box.

FB (S) - You didn't provide any detail about what you expect from him but he has an important role to play in the team too. He is the main provider of width on your right flank which your more advanced players need.

Central Midfield - Personally, I like to have all three duties covered in a defensive triangle. The DM is the holding player on defend duty and is the defensive pivot, the CM on support duty is the link man between my pivots and the other CM on the attack duty is the offensive pivot. You can set it up in a multitude of different ways, all that is required is that the three main responsibilities are covered. Holding (to create depth to your attacks and delay opposition counter attacks), creating (it needn't be a playmaker though, just a player willing to attempt riskier passes) and running (to provide mobility and link your attacking trio to your midfield). As you have three players you don't have to double purpose players and each role can focus on a particular responsibility. I'm not overly convinced a Carrilero is the best role to use in this sort of a formation as in my view they tend to suit systems without players in the wide midfield / attacking midfield positions such as narrow diamonds but try it out and see if it works for you.

IW (S) - You are correct in your assessment that he needs to create space for the overlapping fullback. Ideally, you want them both to create space for each other. When the IW cuts inside you want to see him drag the fullback narrower to open up space for the fullback out wide and when the fullback has the ball you want to see him pulling the opposition fullback wider to open up space for the IW to use.

IF (A) - A False 10 role which should have a complimentary False 9 role. You expect him to be your main goalscorer so you need to assess what he needs to make that work. He starts out wide when you have possession and on receiving the ball will attempt to dribble the ball inside into the box and shoot, think about how you can create space for him do that.

PF (S) - He is a #10 which means that I don't think he is necessarily the best role to choose. A far better alternative would be a False 9 as he has exactly the kind of movement which will allow your IF(A) to thrive and he doesn't run into channels. Bear in mind that a False 9 / False 10 partnership requires a certain quality of player to work effectively relative to the opposition. Do you have the sort of centre forward at Salernitana that has good off the ball movement? Do you have the type of player you expect to play in the IF(A) role that can take on and dribble past players while also having the composure to finish off chances? If the answer is no then maybe you should think about playing a standard #9 / #10 partnership instead.

Finally, why do you want your wide AMs tightly marking? You didn't provide a reason for selecting that.

The theory has been taken care of, now it's time for the practical. Watch some matches in detail and report back with your findings.

All the best

Edited by pheelf
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hello @pheelf and really tnx and appreciate your responce :) well lets get to point now

8 hours ago, pheelf said:

Mentality - I don't know whether I'd use the word neutral to describe it necessarily as the Balanced mentality still comes with a load of hard coded instructions, the only difference being they are all in the middle setting. As the team is expected to finish in mid-table you will face a variety of different approaches from the AI. When facing teams near the bottom of the table they might refuse to be drawn out so you are going to have to formulate a plan B for when this happens.

you are absolutely right about what to expect.with these teams i had more troubles,they were playing much deeper and i was unsuccesfull.something i tryed was to reduce the IF duty from At to Sup to starting deeper.maximized the width to open them more and increased the tempo to higher trying to move them quickly and possible disorganize them.and removed the counter coz the space wouldnt be available

8 hours ago, pheelf said:

In transition instructions - If an opposition over commits men forward and you turnover possession you will trigger a counter attack anyway without needing to select the TI. By selecting the TI you have instructed the team to try and counter every single time you win possession even when it isn't really on. Try the TI out but I can see it becoming problematic should you start to do well in the league. As for your instruction to tell the GK to take short kicks, if your defenders aren't comfortable in playing out from the back then why would you want the GK playing the ball to them? None of your midfielders are going to drop deep enough to be a viable passing option so the ball will be passed to the defenders.

honestly i didnt know it about when winning possesion i would counter even the situation wasnt for counter,so i will disable it and tick it when expect a team to attack me?about gk i chose it thinking that will give the ball to defender or to fbs.maybe try to distribut to fbs but if enemy see it and mark them?

8 hours ago, pheelf said:

Out of possession instructions - In addition to the intensity of the press you also need to decide when and where you would like the team to attempt to win the ball back.

i left it to normal def line and LOE because i wanted start to press when they come to me.not higher LOE because i will break my shape and a better team will pass the press easily.so if i had chosen higher LOE then i must increase higher def line too to press as unit and not leave gaps.and one question to this..if i choose higher LOE when win the ball my players will be higher right?so then i will not have much space to attack?

8 hours ago, pheelf said:

FB (A) - As you have identified this player as the one to provide width on your left flank you need to observe him in match to see whether he is regularly getting forward, how he links up with the IW in front of him and if he is supplying crosses into the box.

well first of all im not happy about my team playing and i think the most problems are about ME issues that atm i dont enjoy fm20,anyway to the point.i like how he bombs forward and he arrives to final third,hes taking nicely into the space out wide but...i dont see crosses,he keeps the ball a lot and delay and sometimes he loses the ball or give it back diagonal to carilero.but the positive is that he gets into the space out wide.every time when he gets in situation for cross i pause the game and looking whats the problem.and i think the basic problem maybe is against deeper teams who has deep line narrower and much players arround of my ST and IF.maybe thats why or is it an issue of my player of ME.cant understand yet

8 hours ago, pheelf said:

FB (S) - You didn't provide any detail about what you expect from him but he has an important role to play in the team too. He is the main provider of width on your right flank which your more advanced players need.

well its a bit comlicated with this role and duty.at first i want a support and bit defensive with the IF-at in front of him.but sometimes when we are in possesion and the IF cuts inside he was ovelrapping then and i didnt want this coz we would be exposed if lose the ball and changed him to defend duty.also to see why this happend i checked his ppms and he hadnt get forward.so again dont know why.

9 hours ago, pheelf said:

Central Midfield - Personally, I like to have all three duties covered in a defensive triangle. The DM is the holding player on defend duty and is the defensive pivot, the CM on support duty is the link man between my pivots and the other CM on the attack duty is the offensive pivot. You can set it up in a multitude of different ways, all that is required is that the three main responsibilities are covered. Holding (to create depth to your attacks and delay opposition counter attacks), creating (it needn't be a playmaker though, just a player willing to attempt riskier passes) and running (to provide mobility and link your attacking trio to your midfield). As you have three players you don't have to double purpose players and each role can focus on a particular responsibility. I'm not overly convinced a Carrilero is the best role to use in this sort of a formation as in my view they tend to suit systems without players in the wide midfield / attacking midfield positions such as narrow diamonds but try it out and see if it works for you.

yeap overall i would definatelly choose another roles in mid for variety if i had one winger and an IF but now that having in wings two roles that cut insides i need to employ different roles that wont occupy the same spaces with wings,otherwise i would select Anchor man,cm-su and cm-at.so about carilero im not happy too but as i mentioned in starting post with these ppms he would get some goals for long shots and he did.u say that i can select a role who can attempt more risky passes.is it anyone with hardcoded more risky passes exept playmakers?

9 hours ago, pheelf said:

IW (S) - You are correct in your assessment that he needs to create space for the overlapping fullback. Ideally, you want them both to create space for each other. When the IW cuts inside you want to see him drag the fullback narrower to open up space for the fullback out wide and when the fullback has the ball you want to see him pulling the opposition fullback wider to open up space for the IW to use.

well at my left side im happy how they work together.but i would like my IW when he have the ball before he receive the ball start little narrower but its ok im happy even if he starting wider and like how he attracks oppositions fb and some times CD or DM and leave nicely a huge space that my FB takes in

9 hours ago, pheelf said:

IF (A) - A False 10 role which should have a complimentary False 9 role. You expect him to be your main goalscorer so you need to assess what he needs to make that work. He starts out wide when you have possession and on receiving the ball will attempt to dribble the ball inside into the box and shoot, think about how you can create space for him do that.

hmm hes is a false 10?well the same as IW he stars quite wide at the start of the phase but even it the ball is playing in left side i noticed sometimes hes quite wide too.now thats makes me thinking probably is ME issue or the role in fm20 designed a bit differently.yes i expect him as a goalscorer but i dont see it atm.i choose Alessio Cerci for this role.u can check him and tell what do u think.hes not super quick but i think hes quality for this league

9 hours ago, pheelf said:

PF (S) - He is a #10 which means that I don't think he is necessarily the best role to choose. A far better alternative would be a False 9 as he has exactly the kind of movement which will allow your IF(A) to thrive and he doesn't run into channels. Bear in mind that a False 9 / False 10 partnership requires a certain quality of player to work effectively relative to the opposition. Do you have the sort of centre forward at Salernitana that has good off the ball movement? Do you have the type of player you expect to play in the IF(A) role that can take on and dribble past players while also having the composure to finish off chances? If the answer is no then maybe you should think about playing a standard #9 / #10 partnership instead.

and finally last role.well well i know that he isnt a creative role like DLF,F9 etc but he doesnt have move into channels to move wider but lot of times do it and there is no one in the box.i checked again his ppms and he doesnt have MIC.if i had a more agile,dribbler,passer,vision and of the ball player i would definately play F9.the player i use most times has ppm to past his opponent if i rember correct.wich isnt bad i think.

well thats for roles,and atm im not happy overall with the tactic even i started quite nicely and beat in 2nd phase in cup a serie A team (sampdoria i think)then struggling most with deeper teams and not only this i dont like the way we playing.only left side works as i want to.luckily i beat again a serie A team in cup :) anyway i would be happy if u can advice me more.

and about tight marking in wingers i added in purpose to make them track back and defend especially IF who has attack duty

Tnx again for help and advice @pheelf

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Errr, IF(A) is nothing like a "false 10". False 10 or a central winger is a moniker given to players like Ozil or Sneijder (and more current Hazard or Coutinho) who would have been played like "classic 10" in ye olde days but nowadays they are often pushed to the wing and expected to perform the defensive duties of a winger, but then float more centrally (freeing the flank for the attacking full back) into traditional no 10 hole when the team has possession. IF(A) on the other hand is a typical wide forward looking to make diagonal runs behind the defence so more like Salah or Sterling. They will generally do no playmaking and will certainly not tend to play in the hole. So in FM terms, false 10 would be more of a advanced playmaker (probably in support role) in wide position with instructions to sit narrower and cut inside.

Plus generally, when using any kind of no 10, classical or false, you probably want to use some kind of attacking forward ahead of them, who would push the defence away from the hole. Using false 9 and false 10 together is bad idea as they tend to operate in the same area, therefore getting in each other's way and attracting more defenders there, creating a quagmire in a place where you want more space for your most creative player to operate. Luckily IF(A) is not a false 10, but instead exactly what you want to have with a false 9, someone who will look to exploit the space left open when false 9 drops deep. 

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Em 14/11/2019 em 17:18, bere23 disse:

hello guys im trying to builld this tactic with Salernitana and this is my shape and roles im trying to make it work

image.thumb.png.a65fb2f8654191b13878d310b1053475.png

 Let me explain my thinking

Mentality: Balanced,i choose this because its neutral and i have 3 players upfront,so i dont want compress the space more higher.i want these 3 players to have space in front of them to use it and draw the defence more out.

In possesion: i picked only play Wide because i want my team be more wide when attacking trying to strech a more bit the opposition and use a bit whole the pitch.

In transition:i picked counter why i want when we win the ball to attack immediately and with balance mentality i will be sitting more deep so i can take advantage of space.Now i didnt choose counter press because i dont want press when i loose the ball firstly i dont have hard workers players and dont want leave gaps in my shape.im in serie b afterall and predicted 9th.dont have strong squad at the moment.Also i picked my GK to take short kicks to whatever choice he thinks.i dont have comfortable defenders to pick them or play out of defence.

Out of possesion:and finally out of possesion just added more press because i dont want to be completely pathetic at marking.and with balanced mentality im sitting a bit deep so thats why.if i would choose positive mentality maybe my team could press more but this would have as result in possesion my team would be more higher in the pitch and more risky but i dont want this.

These are about my TIs and now let me tell you about roles decision.

after saw my  players decided this would be the shape we will play,i have nice LB with nice crossing,good mentals and good physical atts that i wanted to see in pitch thats why added him as FB-A to get forward and cross often.

in midfield im quite speptical how to build nice combos and my players in my team i could have opted a playmaker but i dont want a ball magnet and disturb my attacking play.so i opted for a simple DM-de to protect my def line,press a bit and help in possesion

i chosen carilero in left side to cover my attacking FB and also this player has nice long shots and PPM shoots with power and shoots from distance which surely get some goal in season

now on the right side i picked a simple CM-sup to be all rounder like defending supporting the wing,recycle possesion and most impontantly dont get in the same way of my IF-At.thats why i didnt use a more deep attacking player

now on attcking TRIO i want my IF to be my goalscorer so i've chosen a PF-sup upfront and the reason is he doesnt have move into channels hardcoded.i dont want my ST moves wide,want him centrally to keeps DCs with ,drops a bit and leave space for my IF to operate and get in chances

and on the left side i picked and IW-sup because my players are capable with these atts and also wanted him to drift inside and make space for FB-At.

 

Well this is my thinking and also IF and IW has sit narrower and tight marking as PIs

any advice or thinking would be thankful :) 

Take some inspiration from here:

 

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I'll try and answer your questions in the order you posed them.

With respect to:

- Using Counter TI

I agree that the sensible thing to do is to view the context when deciding whether to use the TI or not. If you see the opposition committing a lot of men forward then use it, if not then leave it out.

- GK Distribution

If you don't think your defenders are capable of playing out from the back then get the GK to distribute it longer. If the opposition presses high and you still want to play it from the back then get the GK to distribute it to the place where you outnumber them. For e.g. If the opposition fields a lone striker then distribute it to the central defenders (2 vs 1), if the opposition fields 2 strikers then distribute it to the full backs (1 vs 0).

- Line of Engagement

Yes, if you increase the height of the LoE and win the ball higher up the pitch you will have less space for your attackers to move into.

- Roles with More Risky Passes

You can simply add the PI to a role.

Overall, it sounds to me like you are doing pretty well beating two Serie A teams in the cup. You may not be overly impressed with the way the team is playing but you're never going to get the end goal straight away and you will need time to mould the squad in the way you need to play the sort of football you want.

Lastly, with respect to getting the wide AMs to tightly mark. Do they have the type of attributes which suit working hard off the ball and tracking runners back?

Good luck

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12 hours ago, LatZee said:

Errr, IF(A) is nothing like a "false 10". False 10 or a central winger is a moniker given to players like Ozil or Sneijder (and more current Hazard or Coutinho) who would have been played like "classic 10" in ye olde days but nowadays they are often pushed to the wing and expected to perform the defensive duties of a winger, but then float more centrally (freeing the flank for the attacking full back) into traditional no 10 hole when the team has possession. IF(A) on the other hand is a typical wide forward looking to make diagonal runs behind the defence so more like Salah or Sterling. They will generally do no playmaking and will certainly not tend to play in the hole. So in FM terms, false 10 would be more of a advanced playmaker (probably in support role) in wide position with instructions to sit narrower and cut inside.

Plus generally, when using any kind of no 10, classical or false, you probably want to use some kind of attacking forward ahead of them, who would push the defence away from the hole. Using false 9 and false 10 together is bad idea as they tend to operate in the same area, therefore getting in each other's way and attracting more defenders there, creating a quagmire in a place where you want more space for your most creative player to operate. Luckily IF(A) is not a false 10, but instead exactly what you want to have with a false 9, someone who will look to exploit the space left open when false 9 drops deep. 

I hear what you say but I'm not convinced (not in FM terms anyway). The IF(A) role has 'More Risky Passes' hardcoded and is a more creative role than you are giving it credit for. I'd say Sterling is the archetype Inverted Winger whose purpose is to start out wide, take players on with dribbles and make diagonal runs in behind when off the ball. Then again if you were to play Sterling as an IF(A) then you wouldn't get that creative aspect out of him even though it is part of the role and his behaviour would look exactly like a #9 rather than a False 10.

I'd agree that playing a classical #10 with a #9 is sensible but can't agree that a False 10 behind a False 9 is unworkable as they would occupy the same space. The whole premise behind that is the False 9's movement in front of the ball should create space for the False 10 by dragging defenders out of position (well at least that is how is supposed to work). 

I think it would be really helpful if someone more in the know could compile a list with all the different roles which are #9's, #10's, False 9's and False 10's. That would clear a lot of the confusion and provide a reference point for players to come to when trying to decide how to setup their strike partnerships.

Best Regards

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well @pheelf tnx again.agree with all your suggestions.now about wingers work rate no its not good thats why make them tight marking just to try to return back more frequenlty.

also i've noticed that my wingers shoot all the time outside of then when they have choice to cut the ball to my ST or nearer player...

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