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Young Devils - Home of Bielsa, Total Football and Brazilian Magic Box (Man Utd FM20 Experiment)


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@crusadertsar, cheers for the response mate, greatly appreciated

Interesting thing with Maguire, as I said its something I've considered before but never actually done. Might actually try it one day now

Well I'll be starting up a new save with my team Derby in the next few days and rough planning/thinking has led me to this as a rough start point:20191224_000253.thumb.jpg.66e1356f42f6d5b79c50289dceb9f06d.jpgI'm not 100% convinced it'd work but it's worth a go and with some tweaking it could be a success. TI wise I'm probably thinking incredibly minimal and simple so far, probably play out of defence (maybe shorter passes and possible be more expressive although I have doubts about our quality in the regard), probably counter (maybe counter press depending on the work rates and that sort of stuff of the players - which if its anything like real life we don't have one) and probably a slightly more urgent press and a slightly higher defensivd line. Obviously all as a start point

Any views would be greatly appreciated

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2 minutes ago, OJ403 said:

@crusadertsar

Interesting thing with Maguire, as I said its something I've considered before but never actually done. Might actually try it one day now

Well I'll be starting up a new save with my team Derby in the next few days and rough planning/thinking has led me to this as a rough start point:20191224_000253.thumb.jpg.66e1356f42f6d5b79c50289dceb9f06d.jpgI'm not 100% convinced it'd work but it's worth a go and with some tweaking it could be a success. Any views would be greatly appreciated

Looks outright deadly that shape.

However I would suggest playing your less attacking midfielder (carrilero is a good idea) on the left side with the more attacking wingback and putting the mezzala on the right. This way you will have more balance in attack. And maybe put mezzala on support and shift the striker to the right. This way your overload will happen on the right with all the support duties there. Your Left Wingack can be unlocked and then easily cross from byline for your mezzala or shadow striker to run into. 

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12 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Looks outright deadly that shape.

However I would suggest playing your less attacking midfielder (carrilero is a good idea) on the left side with the more attacking wingback and putting the mezzala on the right. This way you will have more balance in attack. And maybe put mezzala on support and shift the striker to the right. This way your overload will happen on the right with all the support duties there. Your Left Wingack can be unlocked and then easily cross from byline for your mezzala or shadow striker to run into. 

Haha, deadly in a good way or a bad way? 😂

My one concern was the left being too attacking and overexposed out of possession, and to be fair swapping probably suits us better as a squad. Really appreciate the guidance, I'll comment in more detail when its actually up and running. There's also the Rooney factor in January (he should play for us on Thursday in real life! Its all very exciting!). So hed be one to factor in, even with his declining physicals to not build the side round a player of that quality would be suicidal

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@OJ403 I'm excited to see how Rooney does there also! One of my favourite Red Devils of all time. And I think he still has what it takes to play as a shadow striker. It's all about the mentals and off the ball in that role anyway.

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@crusadertsar

He was pencilled in for my shadow striker, in the mean time I've got a few more technical and pacey options so all bases are covered.

Tbh he probably won't play loads cause he's old but you can't escape the fact that hes the best player in the division and probably arguably the best ever to play in it. I don't know what your knowledge of our squads like, but I'm quite confident in saying we could play him in any position and hed be an improvement

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He is great for sure but i wouldn't say he is the best in Championship. That honour goes to Pablo Hernandez. Leeds' enganche 😉 In the game at least he is the definition of an enganche meaning that you can play him long past his prime unlike Rooney.

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10 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

@nick1408 Thank you for testing the tactic! It gave me some insights into what i can do better. I think that counter-press was also the culprit so i took it off and also lowered the closing down to "more" only. The defensive line I am keeping higher because I think it is integral to Bielsa style. I will lower LOE to much lower to naturally make the team more aggressive in closing down while better retaining their shape. Marking closely is a good idea in this case. Although the offside trap will need be turned off if we are marking closely.

 

Thanks for the reply. 

I tend to agree with you for the Bielsa style to keep the defensive line up. I was trying to adjust for my own team. If I can get some better (and quicker) CB's I'll probably move it back up too. Why do you need to drop the offide trap? I've been using it and haven't seen an issue.

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6 hours ago, nick1408 said:

Thanks for the reply. 

I tend to agree with you for the Bielsa style to keep the defensive line up. I was trying to adjust for my own team. If I can get some better (and quicker) CB's I'll probably move it back up too. Why do you need to drop the offide trap? I've been using it and haven't seen an issue.

I just thought that generally offside trap and marking tight were not a good combination. The defenders need to stay disciplined and in line for the trap to work. Anyway I could be wrong

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I thought a bit more about this and the original article said the tactic relied on switches of play from the right to the left. My thoughts led me to experiment with Oyarzabal as a wide playmaker. I started with him on support but quickly moved him up to attack. 75 minutes and 3 goals later I saw that particular game as a success.

image.thumb.png.24ee05285104e356da8131ee0992d898.png 

image.thumb.png.6b8edd4c1175cb7c1fcd342474e1b2f9.png

You can see the difference in stats between IW-Su and WP-At. I'm not sure why the analysis says he only got two goals but as you can see it was definitely three. Tactics now look like this:

image.thumb.png.c254d474df2f218fd417babc53d0479b.png

 

And I'm fourth in La Liga with three games to go and a five point gap to Real Betis in fifth.

 

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5 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

@nick1408 That's a real achievement, getting 4th with a team like Real Sociedad! Also thanks for testing it. I'm making the wide playmaker change to mine in November and see how the rest of the season goes. Will report on my progress soon.

Cheers. Actually finished third in the end. Real Madrid dropped a game on the last day and I smashed Eibar thanks again to the wide playmaker. 

 

I have lost my CF (Isak) to Man City so it may be an interesting second season. 

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I'm trying to get better at creating tactics and am emulating concepts I find here that look interesting. I figured I'd choose United too. 

Like you I signed Haaland but I also went for another young Norwegian in Kristoffer Ajer. The idea was to play him in the anchor man position but after an injury to Maguire I moved him to CD and went with McTominay in the anchor man spot. The season as a whole has been quite the success so far - I won my group in the Europa League and I'm fourth in the league half way through January with the fewest goals conceded. 

I really only have one question. How do I get Rashford (or any other winger for that matter) to play the ball when he comes in from the wing in a terrible angle. No matter if it's a 2v1 or a 2v2 with the striker free in the golden zone the winger shoots no matter how terrible his angle is. I'm at a complete loss. Is there a something I'm missing with the PI's or traits? 

In a lazy "what if" scenario based on missed chances I would have won or drawn two of the four matches I lost in the league during the first half if only the winger would play the ball. 

I'm also curious because I haven't been able to replicate the type of partnership between striker and winger that you mention. 

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@goldar The best is to get wingers with high teamwork, vision and decion making attributes. Rashford is fast and technical but not the smartest team player. Which is sort of how he is in real life. It's one of the reasons why I'm slowly starting to phase out Man United's old guard with my Spanish acquisitions. For now i would train Rashford and Martial to "prefer to pass rather than shoot" PPM and to give the attacking winger a shoot less often individual instruction.

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Really enjoying this @crusadertsar.

My take on Bielsa has always been minimal TIs, a similar tactical shape but playing on 'overload' or 'very attacking' so I'm glad we have similar ideas but different execution.

Also thank you for reminding me how sexy that Sociedad team and Oyarzábal are - I've never had the money to get him. Very nice.

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7 hours ago, yellowforever said:

Really enjoying this @crusadertsar.

My take on Bielsa has always been minimal TIs, a similar tactical shape but playing on 'overload' or 'very attacking' so I'm glad we have similar ideas but different execution.

Also thank you for reminding me how sexy that Sociedad team and Oyarzábal are - I've never had the money to get him. Very nice.

Yeah i think I'm going at it from slightly different route. Going for conservative mentality but aggressive roles and TIs. Hopefully similar result although Bielsa system has definitely been hardest to recreate. Or any kind of Total Football for that matter. This Match Engine is definitely more suited for go old English hoofball. But I'll keep on trying.

And yes he is my favourite player right now. I have been tempted to start another save with Real Sociedad but I just know that it will detract from my Young Devils commitment.

Edited by crusadertsar
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On 09/01/2020 at 21:17, crusadertsar said:

Yeah i think I'm going at it from slightly different route. Going for conservative mentality but aggressive roles and TIs. Hopefully similar result although Bielsa system has definitely been hardest to recreate. Or any kind of Total Football for that matter. This Match Engine is definitely more suited for go old English hoofball. But I'll keep on trying.

And yes he is my favourite player right now. I have been tempted to start another save with Real Sociedad but I just know that it will detract from my Young Devils commitment.

I'm blown away by this! The only tactic I've been able to get working is a very quick passing, possession game in Serie C and then Serie C. Every other save, I've tried to go direct and had absolutely no joy whatsoever; do you discuss your approach to hoofball in any other threads?

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2 hours ago, Tilling said:

I'm blown away by this! The only tactic I've been able to get working is a very quick passing, possession game in Serie C and then Serie C. Every other save, I've tried to go direct and had absolutely no joy whatsoever; do you discuss your approach to hoofball in any other threads?

Haha incidently I'm actually testing a very direct hoofball type Plan B tactic with a Wide Targetman. Its still has a lot of work to do as the results are too variable. It makes for exciting football where you beat Huddersfield 8-1 one night and then lose to Liverpool 4-1 next night. Too flaky for me to use as more than a Plan B tactic to throw on when everything else fails and you are desperate. Essentially, Plan B.

I think I am just a little disappointed with attacking possession style because I was spoiled by my Roma side from FM19 where I won two Serie A titles and one Europa League in a space of 3 seasons. Success has been longer to come with this United side. But my Roma side was much more suited to vertical tiki taka football, so I probably just need to be more patient. 

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1 hour ago, crusadertsar said:

Haha incidently I'm actually testing a very direct hoofball type Plan B tactic with a Wide Targetman. Its still has a lot of work to do as the results are too variable. It makes for exciting football where you beat Huddersfield 8-1 one night and then lose to Liverpool 4-1 next night. Too flaky for me to use as more than a Plan B tactic to throw on when everything else fails and you are desperate. Essentially, Plan B.

I think I am just a little disappointed with attacking possession style because I was spoiled by my Roma side from FM19 where I won two Serie A titles and one Europa League in a space of 3 seasons. Success has been longer to come with this United side. But my Roma side was much more suited to vertical tiki taka football, so I probably just need to be more patient. 

Haha that sounds great. If you ever end up doing a write-up on it, I'll make sure to keep an eye out. Your point about having the squad to match the style is valid I think, I've noticed that PPMs appear to have a much bigger impact in FM20 than in any other iteration of FM that I've played (or maybe that's confirmation bias, I never did pay too great an attention to it in previous years).

In terms of attacking possession though, have a crack at using a Regista at DM with the Dictates Tempo PPM. I've found it a very strong role this year. In the save I referenced in my previous post, I essentially built the squad around trying to recreate what Pirlo was like all the way back at the Euros in 2012; funnel all the play through a single playmaker, capable of pinging it around the pitch. Then it was focused around creating runners as potential out-balls wherever possible, with marauding fullbacks, a high line, a mezzala AND a CM(A), and a PF + DLF combo to make sure the opposition defence was pinned back, creating even more space. I've not been able to implement what I've wanted to do with a team in this version of the game, having mainly focused on trying to make direct football work. This is definitely the exception to that though, as I've been blowing much better teams away, and the player in the Regista/Pirlo role has been getting consistent 7.5+ match ratings.

 

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On 10/01/2020 at 23:03, Tilling said:

Haha that sounds great. If you ever end up doing a write-up on it, I'll make sure to keep an eye out. Your point about having the squad to match the style is valid I think, I've noticed that PPMs appear to have a much bigger impact in FM20 than in any other iteration of FM that I've played (or maybe that's confirmation bias, I never did pay too great an attention to it in previous years).

In terms of attacking possession though, have a crack at using a Regista at DM with the Dictates Tempo PPM. I've found it a very strong role this year. In the save I referenced in my previous post, I essentially built the squad around trying to recreate what Pirlo was like all the way back at the Euros in 2012; funnel all the play through a single playmaker, capable of pinging it around the pitch. Then it was focused around creating runners as potential out-balls wherever possible, with marauding fullbacks, a high line, a mezzala AND a CM(A), and a PF + DLF combo to make sure the opposition defence was pinned back, creating even more space. I've not been able to implement what I've wanted to do with a team in this version of the game, having mainly focused on trying to make direct football work. This is definitely the exception to that though, as I've been blowing much better teams away, and the player in the Regista/Pirlo role has been getting consistent 7.5+ match ratings.

 

Interesting implementation. Especially how you are recreating that glorious Milan team. Sheva forever!

I've always been fascinated with Pirlo and a regista role in general. I just love the idea of a midfield general dictating the play. I tried to make enganche something like this in my earlier tactic but it didnt exactly work out. Now I'm starting to think that regista might be the playmaker I need. Good food for thought :thup:

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Hey

Fantastic read so far and something that has inspired me for this year. I’ve always had a fascination with Bielsa/total football and tried many times down the years to recreate it

I went with 4-1-4-1 formation too As it’s what Bielsa favours (at least in terms or starting positions anyway) and initially copied your roles

i have found with the current edition of the match engine and the laser long balls a way round this is I have removed the offside trap and I also tight mark whichever striker is playing and tackle hard which seems to cut down the amount of times he goes through one on one (has helped massively)

I have also changed the rcb to a ball playing defender which is more out of preference but seems to have a nice effect on my team. The other change is I have changed the winger on the left to an inside winger on attack with a pi of stays wider and roams from position with the intention of him playing like Muniain for Bielsa Athletic team (again is working well so far)

I would just like to say a massive well done to you for the base tactic as I was starting to think everything I touched was cursed this year but I am having good results so far and I’m currently in 4th with Southampton (admittedly only after 7 games) but I’ve won 5 lost 1 drawn 1 and something which I never usually see after every game I get a message from the press man that people are impressed with my passing and attacking style. 
 

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@mdougal Thank you :) it's a work in progress but i too am starting to see good things with this tactic. 3rd in Premiership currently and just beat Liverpool away after a hard fought battle at Anfield. Was very satisfying after losing to them badly last time around. That time I panicked and used a different more aggressive tactic. The lesson being is that in this game success never comes fast or easy. You really have to work for it. So hopefully for you it works long-term. Would love to have an update on how you do.

And I too have since removed offside trap and added inverted winger on the left. I'll look into tight marking and tackling their strikers too. Good suggestion mate. 

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@crusadertsar yes definitely need to work at the tactics and tbh I don’t have much time to play so struggle with getting through games but I must admit it’s going really well. 
Im currently 3rd with Southampton after 17 games with the 2nd best defensive record and 2nd best attack. The football the tactic produces is fun to watch also

Ive found the inverted winger tactic works really well and dropping the play offside has worked massively for me. As I say by tight marking and hard tackling any striker that I come up against it’s made a massive difference to the amount of goals I concede with through balls so I would recommend trying it

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@crusadertsar Great thread mate and it's inspired me a lot. I've been building a more hard working and technical squad over the first two seasons and gone from mid-table at best to challenging for Europe in the premier league. However I've hit that awful stage where I can beat top teams but just can't create anything against the smaller teams. What changes do you make to deal with teams who just sit back and want to hit you on the counter? I can't seem to create anything!

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@alanfishead I have that problem too and honestly some of the time i end up with a frustrating tie or a narrow loss. Usually it's because they pack the backline with defenders or use multiple defensive midfielders. It's a compliment in a way. It shows that your team is dangerous enough to be feared. The opponent rather scrape through with a tie than get destroyed.

Most of the time increasing the tempo or putting another runner in the midfield helps. but you don't want to go too reckless chasing that goal as that's when they hit you on a counter. Sometimes changing shape is the trick. Lately i have been using Ancelotti-inspired narrow diamond to break down defensive teams. Two strikers or a striker and two shadow strikers are more than what most average defenders can handle. Especially when your strike force consists of Erling Haaland and Greenwood

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@crusadertsar I've previously used a 4312 with adventurous fullbacks to stretch them but also have numbers centrally which has worked well. My 2 main strikers currently are Haaland and Esposito so there's plenty of quality there. I think the shape might be the answer as I've tried tempo and that just results in more blocked shots and more turnovers in possession. I've tried dropping the DL to standard and LOE to lower, again to no avail. 

 

Thanks for you advice!

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I am so pleased to have found this thread - it's exactly what I have been trying to create on my save with Arsenal - massively helpful - thank you.

I'm actually just entering summer after my second season so will have a pre-season to test these and settle them in but, in the meantime, could I ask - do these look like what you suggest? I think I have followed the overload aspects but I have also added an Anchor Man as I really want to give license to (probably) my two best players, Olmo and Fernandes to run amok and cause problems.

Looking to create a home (with AML/R) and an away 4141 version.

Welcome any initial thoughts and I'll report back after a meaty pre-season! 

20200116180743_1.thumb.jpg.03020183f135df8580473f123dd950ef.jpg20200116180808_1.thumb.jpg.feb3f5df5ce62a7da06ba57c5cf0cb64.jpg

Edited by BrickCommo23
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On 15/01/2020 at 10:58, mdougal said:

@crusadertsar yes definitely need to work at the tactics and tbh I don’t have much time to play so struggle with getting through games but I must admit it’s going really well. 
Im currently 3rd with Southampton after 17 games with the 2nd best defensive record and 2nd best attack. The football the tactic produces is fun to watch also

Ive found the inverted winger tactic works really well and dropping the play offside has worked massively for me. As I say by tight marking and hard tackling any striker that I come up against it’s made a massive difference to the amount of goals I concede with through balls so I would recommend trying it

Just out of interest - could I ask what roles you have for your CM's? That's the bit I am finding trickiest at the moment

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3 hours ago, BrickCommo23 said:

Just out of interest - could I ask what roles you have for your CM's? That's the bit I am finding trickiest at the moment

Hi mate

To be honest it’s the same as @crusadertsar tactic with a mez on support and bbm on support

Im playing Southampton and have Ward-prowse in the mez position and I bought Jude Bellingham so he and Armstrong rotate in the bbm role

I would say I haven’t found that they perform above average but they are part of the tactic rather than the key. Most of my goals come from the striker and the 2 wide men. After seeing a lot of people asking about 433 tactics this really does play like a 433 but also gives you solidity of a 5 man midfield

The last game I played I won and actually went top of the league but have played a game in hand but the tactic is massively over achieving for me so far and also producing good football which gets commented on by the media almost every press conference so I couldn’t recommend highly enough tho I would strongly suggest the defensive tweaks I mentioned as it’s made a massive difference to me

I have no idea how to take screenshots etc to add pics to show the league table etc but it really is working for me

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I’m trying to create a style with Swansea, I’m using the 4-1-4-1 base tactic and haven’t made any changes to it yet. I’m really struggling to score goals, defensively it works pretty well. 9 CS in 16 games but goals are really hard to come by. Any advice?

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4 hours ago, mdougal said:

Hi mate

To be honest it’s the same as @crusadertsar tactic with a mez on support and bbm on support

Im playing Southampton and have Ward-prowse in the mez position and I bought Jude Bellingham so he and Armstrong rotate in the bbm role

I would say I haven’t found that they perform above average but they are part of the tactic rather than the key. Most of my goals come from the striker and the 2 wide men. After seeing a lot of people asking about 433 tactics this really does play like a 433 but also gives you solidity of a 5 man midfield

The last game I played I won and actually went top of the league but have played a game in hand but the tactic is massively over achieving for me so far and also producing good football which gets commented on by the media almost every press conference so I couldn’t recommend highly enough tho I would strongly suggest the defensive tweaks I mentioned as it’s made a massive difference to me

I have no idea how to take screenshots etc to add pics to show the league table etc but it really is working for me

Thanks mate, appreciate it. 

Screenshots are generally just hitting F12 by the way. 

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On 16/01/2020 at 12:53, BrickCommo23 said:

I am so pleased to have found this thread - it's exactly what I have been trying to create on my save with Arsenal - massively helpful - thank you.

I'm actually just entering summer after my second season so will have a pre-season to test these and settle them in but, in the meantime, could I ask - do these look like what you suggest? I think I have followed the overload aspects but I have also added an Anchor Man as I really want to give license to (probably) my two best players, Olmo and Fernandes to run amok and cause problems.

Looking to create a home (with AML/R) and an away 4141 version.

Welcome any initial thoughts and I'll report back after a meaty pre-season! 

20200116180743_1.thumb.jpg.03020183f135df8580473f123dd950ef.jpg20200116180808_1.thumb.jpg.feb3f5df5ce62a7da06ba57c5cf0cb64.jpg

Thanks! I'm glad that the thread is helping you. I like the idea of the advanced winger version for home games. With the right roles it can be as defensively solid as the flat 4-1-4-1. Especially if you get wingers that are hard working enough to track back and press. In fact, it is something that I am starting to see as essential for my tactic to work. Hardworking well rounded forwards are key for split press to work. 

But both formations should look like 4-3-3 in possession. I would maybe change mezzala to attack in the flat version to give more penetration from the midfield. Anchorman should be good as long as you have a creative player there who can pass. I play a balwinning midfielder on support with instruction to hold position so about the same effect probably. Any combination of creator, runner and destroyer should work especially if you are using well rounded total football dna players.

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5 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Thanks! I'm glad that the thread is helping you. I like the idea of the advanced winger version for home games. With the right roles it can be as defensively solid as the flat 4-1-4-1. Especially if you get wingers that are hard working enough to track back and press. In fact, it is something that I am starting to see as essential for my tactic to work. Hardworking well rounded forwards are key for split press to work. 

But both formations should look like 4-3-3 in possession. I would maybe change mezzala to attack in the flat version to give more penetration from the midfield. Anchorman should be good as long as you have a creative player there who can pass. I play a balwinning midfielder on support with instruction to hold position so about the same effect probably. Any combination of creator, runner and destroyer should work especially if you are using well rounded total football dna players.

Thank you. Just about to start preseason, going to take my time with it and hopefully get something rocking 

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5 hours ago, Corndog4669 said:

I’m trying to create a style with Swansea, I’m using the 4-1-4-1 base tactic and haven’t made any changes to it yet. I’m really struggling to score goals, defensively it works pretty well. 9 CS in 16 games but goals are really hard to come by. Any advice?

@Corndog4669 and other readers. I had the same problem too. But I have recently made some changes to integrate some of the suggestions I got from the community (thanks to @mdougalamong others) and the tactic is working even better. I think it has more bite now. We are not going to be breaking any records but we are solidly 2nd in goals scored. And getting a variety of goals, not that many from set pieces. I changed some of the roles around to make it more balanced. I also might end up pushing my wingers higher in order to implement bielsa/pep style inverted wingbacks. At the same time my midfield had solidified into a destroyer, creator, runner triangle. The theme for the new improved tactic is definitely balance in defence and attack. As long as we win games I am happy. 

By the way i will be writing about this and some other aspects of the tactic on my next update. Should come out on Monday. So hopefully people are still interested in this long journey of tactical tinkering. 

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1 hour ago, crusadertsar said:

@Corndog4669 and other readers. I had the same problem too. But I have recently made some changes to integrate some of the suggestions I got from the community (thanks to @mdougalamong others) and the tactic is working even better. I think it has more bite now. We are not going to be breaking any records but we are solidly 2nd in goals scored. And getting a variety of goals, not that many from set pieces. I changed some of the roles around to make it more balanced. I also might end up pushing my wingers higher in order to implement bielsa/pep style inverted wingbacks. At the same time my midfield had solidified into a destroyer, creator, runner triangle. The theme for the new improved tactic is definitely balance in defence and attack. As long as we win games I am happy. 

By the way i will be writing about this and some other aspects of the tactic on my next update. Should come out on Monday. So hopefully people are still interested in this long journey of tactical tinkering. 

Ahh amazing, I’m so into this philosophy and way of playing, so I’ll definitely be interested in your journey and what you’ve managed to come up with! 

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So happy to find this thread! Looking to start a new Arsenal save and this is exactly the type of style I want then to play. Interested in @nick1408 version with the WP (Ozil?) as an option. Will get stuck in today and report back.

quick question though - I usually play touch but am going full fat version as want to play the public beta. Is there any particular training routines any of you use?

thanks in advance

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I dont want to take over the great thread from @crusadertsar but i thought id at least share the couple of tweaks ive gone for that seemed to have worked for me.

As you can see the initial tactic with just the 1in possession instruction of be more expressive ive also added pass into space, low crosses, run at defence and work ball into box.  Then the in transition phase ive added counter and distribute to centre backs to the instruction of counter press.  Then lastly in the out of possession phase ive added get stuck in and prevent short gk distribution to what was already set and removed play offside trap (which i combat the through balls with tight marking and hard tackling and show onto weaker foot of any striker i come up against)

As you can see in the screenshots im scoring quite freely and not conceding too much (ish). My average possession isnt the best but tbh the changes ive made are more to do with trying to recreate the all action style that Bielsa's Athletic team had and watching the games id say im definitely seeing a sort of organised chaos of players moving all over the place esp the IW on attack with the PI added roam from position and stay wider.

Anyway back to the excellent work that @crusadertsar has dne with this tactic and im really looking forward to see how he improves it as he goes on

2020-01-19.png

2020-01-19 (11).png

2020-01-19 (10).png

2020-01-19 (7).png

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On 19/01/2020 at 05:24, jdubsnz said:

So happy to find this thread! Looking to start a new Arsenal save and this is exactly the type of style I want then to play. Interested in @nick1408 version with the WP (Ozil?) as an option. Will get stuck in today and report back.

quick question though - I usually play touch but am going full fat version as want to play the public beta. Is there any particular training routines any of you use?

thanks in advance

Looking forward to your report back. Regarding training routines. I alternate between gegenpress style preset and possession training. Also adapt according to the game. For example before away game against underdog team i will focus on set pieces because we probably won't have that many chances from open play as they will park the bus.

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A little update from me. 

I've created a very long but also very easy pre-season schedule to try and get the confidence and understanding up as high as possible before the season proper. 

These are the results (scores look good but notice the opposition)

20200120222135_1.thumb.jpg.cbdb19177d2125f80ab411723b5d4d14.jpg

And a bit more detail from my 'trickiest' game to date:

20200120222148_1.thumb.jpg.6ff8ff57a614d24aa8fb6ca974920ceb.jpg

Generally speaking I think I am finding similar to others - not dominating on the possession aspects but we are lightning quick going forward and creating loads more CCCs than I have managed with other tactics. 

This is the system at present. Pepe is constantly rated as being played massively out of position but is doing very well - his low rating in the above is because he missed 3 CCCs which is annoying but I am pleased he was getting in so regularly. 

20200120222129_1.thumb.jpg.f58295cba6a9b4c7793d5bda9ebf4c36.jpg

I have also experimented with pushing the ML/MR up to AML/AMR but it was less effective in terms of possession but also goal scoring opportunities. 

I think I would like to get the possession a bit better as it feels like I will pay for that against better opposition.

I think my next tweaks are to shorten the passing and lower the tempo (both by 1 notch) but add pass into space (perhaps).

Anyway - welcome any thoughts or views...

Edited by BrickCommo23
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1 hour ago, BrickCommo23 said:

A little update from me. 

I've created a very long but also very easy pre-season schedule to try and get the confidence and understanding up as high as possible before the season proper. 

These are the results (scores look good but notice the opposition)

20200120222135_1.thumb.jpg.cbdb19177d2125f80ab411723b5d4d14.jpg

And a bit more detail from my 'trickiest' game to date:

20200120222148_1.thumb.jpg.6ff8ff57a614d24aa8fb6ca974920ceb.jpg

Generally speaking I think I am finding similar to others - not dominating on the possession aspects but we are lightning quick going forward and creating loads more CCCs than I have managed with other tactics. 

This is the system at present. Pepe is constantly rated as being played massively out of position but is doing very well - his low rating in the above is because he missed 3 CCCs which is annoying but I am pleased he was getting in so regularly. 

20200120222129_1.thumb.jpg.f58295cba6a9b4c7793d5bda9ebf4c36.jpg

I have also experimented with pushing the ML/MR up to AML/AMR but it was less effective in terms of possession but also goal scoring opportunities. 

I think I would like to get the possession a bit better as it feels like I will pay for that against better opposition.

I think my next tweaks are to shorten the passing and lower the tempo (both by 1 notch) but add pass into space (perhaps).

Anyway - welcome any thoughts or views...

That right wing of Pepe and Bellerin is downright lethal! Exactly the pairing I would look when looking for a combination for unlocking the side after a successful overload. As Man Utd Pepe is somewhat of a bogie player for me, as he just always manages to break through and get into a scoring opportunity. It's almost got to the point where when I see him with the ball during a highlight, I start holding my breath in dread haha

Edited by crusadertsar
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On 19/01/2020 at 12:18, mdougal said:

I dont want to take over the great thread from @crusadertsar but i thought id at least share the couple of tweaks ive gone for that seemed to have worked for me.

As you can see the initial tactic with just the 1in possession instruction of be more expressive ive also added pass into space, low crosses, run at defence and work ball into box.  Then the in transition phase ive added counter and distribute to centre backs to the instruction of counter press.  Then lastly in the out of possession phase ive added get stuck in and prevent short gk distribution to what was already set and removed play offside trap (which i combat the through balls with tight marking and hard tackling and show onto weaker foot of any striker i come up against)

As you can see in the screenshots im scoring quite freely and not conceding too much (ish). My average possession isnt the best but tbh the changes ive made are more to do with trying to recreate the all action style that Bielsa's Athletic team had and watching the games id say im definitely seeing a sort of organised chaos of players moving all over the place esp the IW on attack with the PI added roam from position and stay wider.

Anyway back to the excellent work that @crusadertsar has dne with this tactic and im really looking forward to see how he improves it as he goes on

2020-01-19.png

2020-01-19 (11).png

2020-01-19 (10).png

2020-01-19 (7).png

I will try and post a longer update this week but just wanted to ask a couple of questions as I am also managing the Saints (my hometown club - only side I play with on FM 😁)

1. Did you sign Almada and Onguene in the 1st window? How much did you pay?

2. Danny Ings - does he blow hot and cold for you. I signed Davie Selkie in the 1st window as I had an idea to play a 442 with a TM. He has 16 goals in 21 appearances. Ings has 5 in 15 by comparison.

I am currently experimenting with Wingers in this tactic. 9 goals scored in the last 3 games... 4-4 draw with Spurs suggests I might have some more work to defensively, I have a WB (Att) at LFB and I he keeps getting caught out positionally with diagonal balls from their left wing or midfield.

 

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9 hours ago, WhiteRose74 said:

I will try and post a longer update this week but just wanted to ask a couple of questions as I am also managing the Saints (my hometown club - only side I play with on FM 😁)

1. Did you sign Almada and Onguene in the 1st window? How much did you pay?

2. Danny Ings - does he blow hot and cold for you. I signed Davie Selkie in the 1st window as I had an idea to play a 442 with a TM. He has 16 goals in 21 appearances. Ings has 5 in 15 by comparison.

I am currently experimenting with Wingers in this tactic. 9 goals scored in the last 3 games... 4-4 draw with Spurs suggests I might have some more work to defensively, I have a WB (Att) at LFB and I he keeps getting caught out positionally with diagonal balls from their left wing or midfield.

 

Hi

No I’ve just got to the January window so managed to buy Almada for 4.8 mil and Onguene for 22mil plus a few bonuses. I have sold vestergaard for 17mil to Wolves and Shane Long for 2mil which has covered the cost in the main because I had only bought Dani Olmo and Bellingham in the summer and had sold a few so I’ve basically broke even. So the position and results so far have been without Almada and Onguene as they have only played one game which incidentally I’ve just lost to Wolves at home to drop down to 4th

As for Danny Ings ye I’m sort of in the same boat he is hit and miss he actually has 13 goals for me but tends to score in bursts then goes missing for few games after. Tbh I’m actually hoping that he hits a few patches of form before the end of the season and I would possibly look to cash in if I could get a good bid. The dream would be to replace with Haaland as I’m trying to replicate Bielsa Athletic Bilbao team and think Haaland has a lot of the attributes a prime Fernando Llorente had back then.

Tactically still seems to be working and must admit every time I’ve had a slight go at changing the wide men’s roles I lose a lot from the tactic and I honestly couldn’t say enough for me at least that to keep the wide men in the midfield strata rather than move them up one but give them individualised instructions to make them play like attackers

How are you finding the current squad eg. Hojberg, Ward-prowse, Redmond etc I’m torn with the idea of sticking with them and trying through my training programmes to improve (they all have good attributes) and then the idea of encouraging offers and changing the squad in the summer (even though they are doing well I think I could improve)

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21 hours ago, BrickCommo23 said:

A little update from me. 

I've created a very long but also very easy pre-season schedule to try and get the confidence and understanding up as high as possible before the season proper. 

These are the results (scores look good but notice the opposition)

20200120222135_1.thumb.jpg.cbdb19177d2125f80ab411723b5d4d14.jpg

And a bit more detail from my 'trickiest' game to date:

20200120222148_1.thumb.jpg.6ff8ff57a614d24aa8fb6ca974920ceb.jpg

Generally speaking I think I am finding similar to others - not dominating on the possession aspects but we are lightning quick going forward and creating loads more CCCs than I have managed with other tactics. 

This is the system at present. Pepe is constantly rated as being played massively out of position but is doing very well - his low rating in the above is because he missed 3 CCCs which is annoying but I am pleased he was getting in so regularly. 

20200120222129_1.thumb.jpg.f58295cba6a9b4c7793d5bda9ebf4c36.jpg

I have also experimented with pushing the ML/MR up to AML/AMR but it was less effective in terms of possession but also goal scoring opportunities. 

I think I would like to get the possession a bit better as it feels like I will pay for that against better opposition.

I think my next tweaks are to shorten the passing and lower the tempo (both by 1 notch) but add pass into space (perhaps).

Anyway - welcome any thoughts or views...

This is interesting!  Just started an Arsenal save and have begun using @crusadertsarlatest version as a base.  Only 3 games in but as you can see it hasn't been a strong start!  A lot of the squad are on holiday or injured, but we have been pretty average so far:

91046454_2020-01-21(6).thumb.png.912b6f713d667c99b82e08fff8f0aade.png252746482_2020-01-21(5).thumb.png.882f30bfb2d5eee67958ccbc5b097e8f.png

only in the 3rd game have we created more than the other team:

1070095038_2020-01-21(4).thumb.png.7432a3b9a73e4adae84c6afa667042e4.png

Thinking I might have to add some more friendlies into the pre-season!  And drop the wide players back, at least from home.

Question - do you shift mentality through the game depending on the situation, or just stick with positive/attacking?

 

 

2020-01-21.png

Edited by jdubsnz
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20 hours ago, BrickCommo23 said:

A little update from me. 

I've created a very long but also very easy pre-season schedule to try and get the confidence and understanding up as high as possible before the season proper. 

These are the results (scores look good but notice the opposition)

20200120222135_1.thumb.jpg.cbdb19177d2125f80ab411723b5d4d14.jpg

And a bit more detail from my 'trickiest' game to date:

20200120222148_1.thumb.jpg.6ff8ff57a614d24aa8fb6ca974920ceb.jpg

Generally speaking I think I am finding similar to others - not dominating on the possession aspects but we are lightning quick going forward and creating loads more CCCs than I have managed with other tactics. 

This is the system at present. Pepe is constantly rated as being played massively out of position but is doing very well - his low rating in the above is because he missed 3 CCCs which is annoying but I am pleased he was getting in so regularly. 

20200120222129_1.thumb.jpg.f58295cba6a9b4c7793d5bda9ebf4c36.jpg

I have also experimented with pushing the ML/MR up to AML/AMR but it was less effective in terms of possession but also goal scoring opportunities. 

I think I would like to get the possession a bit better as it feels like I will pay for that against better opposition.

I think my next tweaks are to shorten the passing and lower the tempo (both by 1 notch) but add pass into space (perhaps).

Anyway - welcome any thoughts or views...

is this season 2? just looking at the squad

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2 hours ago, jdubsnz said:

is this season 2? just looking at the squad

About to start season 3. I won the league in first season but then patches etc completely nailed my tactic and I came second in season 2.

I am experimenting with the mentality - currently on positive. May try attacking given the solid formation..

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4 hours ago, mdougal said:

Hi

No I’ve just got to the January window so managed to buy Almada for 4.8 mil and Onguene for 22mil plus a few bonuses. I have sold vestergaard for 17mil to Wolves and Shane Long for 2mil which has covered the cost in the main because I had only bought Dani Olmo and Bellingham in the summer and had sold a few so I’ve basically broke even. So the position and results so far have been without Almada and Onguene as they have only played one game which incidentally I’ve just lost to Wolves at home to drop down to 4th

As for Danny Ings ye I’m sort of in the same boat he is hit and miss he actually has 13 goals for me but tends to score in bursts then goes missing for few games after. Tbh I’m actually hoping that he hits a few patches of form before the end of the season and I would possibly look to cash in if I could get a good bid. The dream would be to replace with Haaland as I’m trying to replicate Bielsa Athletic Bilbao team and think Haaland has a lot of the attributes a prime Fernando Llorente had back then.

Tactically still seems to be working and must admit every time I’ve had a slight go at changing the wide men’s roles I lose a lot from the tactic and I honestly couldn’t say enough for me at least that to keep the wide men in the midfield strata rather than move them up one but give them individualised instructions to make them play like attackers

How are you finding the current squad eg. Hojberg, Ward-prowse, Redmond etc I’m torn with the idea of sticking with them and trying through my training programmes to improve (they all have good attributes) and then the idea of encouraging offers and changing the squad in the summer (even though they are doing well I think I could improve)

I only managed to loan Vestergaard - 17m is great business! Have kept Long (I like his workmate when defending a lead). I have both Almada and Onguene extensively scouted but am determined to stay in the black financially, if I can get Almada for that price then all well and good but Onguene will have to wait until the summer. Danso has been excellent and I will almost certainly trigger the option in the loan contract. 

I also have Haaland on my radar but not on any shortlist.... 

I play my wingers in the midfield strata - it seems to work ok but none of Redmond, Boufal or Djenepo are great defensively.... its a work in progress! 

As regards the rest of the squad, JW-P has been excellent (7.61 av rating - 6 goals, 10 assists playing as the Mezzala) and is the subject of interest from Spurs. Its end Jan 2020 in my save. Hojberg and Redmond have also played consistently well and since I recalled him from loan - so had Stuart Armstrong. I don't think the squad needs major surgery - the board vision makes life a little more challenging but I quite like that (and tbh have played Fm that way for a while now as regards signing younger players) - priorities in the summer are on the flanks and adding some pace to the back line - those balls over the top are a killer!!

I will tray and post a longer update with screenshots (when I can figure out/remember how to do that) over the next day or so. I keep thinking about starting a Saints thread....

Edited by WhiteRose74
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