(FM 2017) Defending a lead and realism

[Mypos]

Hey guys. I have played this game since CM96/97 off and on and i started playing FM 2017 recently. Before that i played FM 2011 2010 and 2007 a lot. I allways used downloaded tactics and then squad building to get little clubs from bottom to absolute top. I had amazing careers with Shamrock Rovers and Blyth Spartans for instance bringing them the cup with the big ears (as they say here in Holland).

But there was something bugging me and that was the level of how reel it felt to me. For instance in FM2011 with Shamrock Rovers i started doing really well in Europe with alot of talent and then bigger clubs came in and swooped my best players and biggest talents away. That felt very realistic. After that when i played FM2012 and 2013 there was hardly any interest for my players even the time when i did a Youth Challenge with Cork City and half of the Irish national team was made up of my own players no big clubs came in and bought my players. Both those things put me off. Didnt feel realistic anymore.

So now i started with FM2017 and i choose Armagh from Northern Ireland. Its a big challenge again because the Northern Ireland competition is really really low with all semi pro clubs and a reputation like Vanarama National or something. I also decided to stop with using downloaded tactics but create my own. I didnt want any matchengine exploiting tactic anymore. Im quite liking it so far. It added an extra dimension of realism to the game. I only have 2 problems. One it takes up much more time because you need to study your oponents tactics and adapt your own tactics to it. And two (and this is more important to me) its starting to feel less realistic now for me because i have had alot of games in which i choose the right tactics and get up like 2 3 sometimes 4 goals. Then i do some adjusment, often retain possesion, play more narrow, deeper dline but still i get hammered by the opposition and lose the game. Yesterday i had this game, i came 2-0 up, i did retain possesion all was good, im looking at the widge screen of opponent, AI didnt change any formation or role so far i could see, but all of a sudden after 60 min they start scoring and i lose 4-2. Ridiculous. My tactic worked very well untill then, i didnt see any changes made by AI but they score 4 goals. And i have seen this alot. Can somebody explain to me how this works, why it is realistic and what i can do about it?

Thx alot.

Cheers

[herne79]

33 minutes ago, Mypos said:

One it takes up much more time because you need to study your oponents tactics and adapt your own tactics to it.

You don't "need" to do that.  You "can" if that's how you like to play, but if you are confident in your own system then there is nothing wrong in making your opponents adapt to you instead.

27 minutes ago, Mypos said:

And two (and this is more important to me) its starting to feel less realistic now for me because i have had alot of games in which i choose the right tactics and get up like 2 3 sometimes 4 goals. Then i do some adjusment, often retain possesion, play more narrow, deeper dline but still i get hammered by the opposition and lose the game. Yesterday i had this game, i came 2-0 up, i did retain possesion all was good, im looking at the widge screen of opponent, AI didnt change any formation or role so far i could see, but all of a sudden after 60 min they start scoring and i lose 4-2. Ridiculous. My tactic worked very well untill then, i didnt see any changes made by AI but they score 4 goals. And i have seen this alot.

Why are you making changes?  You are 2/3/4 goals in the lead.  Things are going well for you yet you start tinkering and making changes?  Doing nothing is sometimes the best option.  Make changes only if you see there is an actual need on the pitch, otherwise keep your hands off that mouse!

[Svenc]

The key may be understanding the changes you make. The AI almost certainly did make changes, which springs the question whether you can read things or not -- the clues are in the match Play and changed Forward runs, etc.. This is FM 17. Check what the wide midfielders do. Every time you take a lead, flood the middle of the pitch, pick a Formation that does such and is reasonably balanced (e.g. not top heavy 4-2-3-1), put everyone on a defend Duty which encourages them to hold their Possession rather than running forward (far easier to Keep the ball Deep on the pitch, naturally), pick a more cautious mentality, hit retain Possession, play out from the back, keeper distribution roll out to one of the backs, presto. It's best do prepare this and Train it by having it slotted in one of the 3 tactic Slots available -- not merely as it's just a click away then, but because the Team are actually Training it.



Whilst the above shot is from FM 17, I don't have a Video of that release in particular, but that's a roughly approximization of what would be Happening then in Terms of play. 
 

I think even the popular download tactics you used first had similar "shut up shop" Options in place by the time FM17 hit. Which given how effective it is, was likely no surprise -- Teams in Football generally cannot outright kill Opposition Comebacks like that. And yet there were so many complaints how Players would just hoof it all match Long on any of those releases!!!

 

 

Edited September 30, 2019 by Svenc

[Alvaro.pcr]

Bro, in Brazil we have a saying that is not just used in a football context.. It goes: Don't make changes in a winning team. Hahaha

Besides, If your team is a team that plays direct football, then asking them to retain possession mid-game might be completely asking them to change the style of play, which might be the problem causing confusion and break down. Unless your team is more of the slow-build up, lots of passes and ball possession, then its better not to ask them to retain possession in the middle of the game.

Better to only simply change mentality and duties, change some from support -> defend, and some from attack -> support...

Edited September 30, 2019 by Alvaro.pcr

[Svenc]

On 30/09/2019 at 20:04, Alvaro.pcr said:

Besides, If your team is a team that plays direct football, then asking them to retain possession mid-game might be completely asking them to change the style of play, which might be the problem causing confusion and break down. 

That's why you can prepare more than one tactics… however, just hitting "retain Possession" likely won't suddenly make them Forget how to pass a ball / Play football entirelly (I think the Feedback as to cohesion / match preparation is a tad misunderstood). Still better to prepare and actually utilize the tactic Slots available. Whether it's "realistic" or no, Teams can be both fluid in a "direct passing attacking game" as well as "a shut up shop Keep the ball and wind the Clock down" game. It's all utilized by the AI as well -- so that Players can rage when it suddenly stops rigidly defending with all its might and starts attacking 10 minutes from time -- and on the Occasion score with the first couple shots. :P 

Edited October 1, 2019 by Svenc

[Lanko]

On 30/09/2019 at 05:26, herne79 said:

Why are you making changes?  You are 2/3/4 goals in the lead.  Things are going well for you yet you start tinkering and making changes?  Doing nothing is sometimes the best option.  Make changes only if you see there is an actual need on the pitch, otherwise keep your hands off that mouse!

Maybe he didn't word it well, but maybe he meant he made changes to reduce intensity to avoid injuries.

Or maybe with a lead he felt he didn't need to expose his defense and tried to play on the counter... which is what most teams actually do.

And why not? If I'm 3-4 goals in the lead I'll definitely ask my players (or some of them) to Easy of Tackles, Close Down a little less, play slower, probably drop a little deeper too... all which do have high tactical implications. No need to Gegenpress high in the pitch with intense urgency the whole match with a 4 goal lead (though in FM you can).

Edited October 2, 2019 by Lanko

[HUNT3R]

30 minutes ago, Lanko said:

Maybe he didn't word it well, but maybe he meant he made changes to reduce intensity to avoid injuries.

Or maybe with a lead he felt he didn't need to expose his defense and tried to play on the counter... which is what most teams actually do.

And why not? If I'm 3-4 goals in the lead I'll definitely ask my players (or some of them) to Easy of Tackles, Close Down a little less, play slower, probably drop a little deeper too... all which do have high tactical implications. No need to Gegenpress high in the pitch with intense urgency the whole match with a 4 goal lead (though in FM you can).

Sure. I get that approach. I do that as well. When I do make changes, I would change to a saved tactic that's been tried and tested so I have complete faith in the change I'm making. If I don't have one, I keep a very close eye on what's happening.

Take "Retain Possession" for example. It sounds great. You want to keep the ball and run down the clock. It's not as simple as just ticking it and sitting back though. You're reducing passes into space with the TI, so cutting out risky passes. Great, in theory. Players need, more than ever, multiple players to pass to since a lot of the passes will be to feet. Does the role and duty setup ensure that? Or are there now so few passing options that the other, very aggressive pressing team, is now able to win possession even easier than before? Combine in with "Play Narrow" and it could be quite compressed.

[Mypos]

Thx for all the tips guys. Im starting to understand the tactical side a litte bit better now. This micro managing is really alot more realistic but man its also very time consuming. Study about each match before you play and then spend a lot of time looking at the match and hope you can see some patterns or things that go wrong. Are there maybe some pointers you guys can share to use for seeing what goes wrong or right in a match and what you can use to make changes to your tactics?

Last year i was 5th in Danske Bank Premiership and i won the Irish League Cup with Armagh. So i got to play Euro football for the first time. I got Stromgsgodset from Norway. Lost 3-0 at home and 0-0 away but i earned 300000 with it and that its huuuuuuge for my finances. So that was good. Its such a ridiculous challenge though. I cannot even do what i do best and thats squad building because i can only scout in Northern Ireland. And i have the attribute cloack on. But im getting some good youth players now so thats good. I just have to make sure i put them on parttime contracts because those Welsh TNS bastards just stole away my huge keeper talent because he was on a noncontract.

 

Cheers!

Edited October 4, 2019 by Mypos

[Svenc]

5 hours ago, Mypos said:

Are there maybe some pointers you guys can share to use for seeing what goes wrong or right in a match and what you can use to make changes to your tactics?

For what is "going wrong" or "Right" I Keep it simple and actually start by Looking at the end product. Which is the shots. However, obviously not all are equal…  

F'r instance, if my main objective currently was decreasing the Chance of the Opposition of scoring, I'd look that most of their shots are a) outside the box b) not from central positions therein and c) ideally if within the box , mainly from set pieces (a set piece in General is the result of a "succesfully" defended move after all -- plus headers in jam packed boxes should rarer lead to a goal). If every other Opposition attack seems to end up in the box, from Play (or a counter), there must be something wrong.

And vice versa. If my objective is getting a Goal, I'd take a look at the shots that go off for my Team. Ideally, as a reverse from the above, they be a) INSIDE the box b) ideally from central positions therein and c) from actually Play. Both are to be balanced accordingly; as going Forward you will definitely Need to sacrifice some defensive oomph and vice versa.

Now what to Change depends on the Opposition naturally. Are we struggling to get inside the box from play against an opponent parking the bus? Maybe try to create mor width and an overlap down the one flank and add Depth to the field by keepin an added midfielder in the centre of the pitch (defend Duty). Is the opposition getting into our box on every spell of possession because our full back is constantly caught out of position? Maybe put him on a more conservative role/Duty with less Forward running. However, as a simple gauge of whether Things are going Right/wrong….

The AI as Opposition btw isn't capable, and likely won't ever be of "reading" match play on a Micro Level. It likewise though has simple means of increasing/decreasing the likelyhood of scoring/conceding depending on the Situation.

Edited October 4, 2019 by Svenc

[Mypos]

On 04/10/2019 at 16:29, Svenc said:

For what is "going wrong" or "Right" I Keep it simple and actually start by Looking at the end product. Which is the shots. However, obviously not all are equal…  

F'r instance, if my main objective currently was decreasing the Chance of the Opposition of scoring, I'd look that most of their shots are a) outside the box b) not from central positions therein and c) ideally if within the box , mainly from set pieces (a set piece in General is the result of a "succesfully" defended move after all -- plus headers in jam packed boxes should rarer lead to a goal). If every other Opposition attack seems to end up in the box, from Play (or a counter), there must be something wrong.

And vice versa. If my objective is getting a Goal, I'd take a look at the shots that go off for my Team. Ideally, as a reverse from the above, they be a) INSIDE the box b) ideally from central positions therein and c) from actually Play. Both are to be balanced accordingly; as going Forward you will definitely Need to sacrifice some defensive oomph and vice versa.

Now what to Change depends on the Opposition naturally. Are we struggling to get inside the box from play against an opponent parking the bus? Maybe try to create mor width and an overlap down the one flank and add Depth to the field by keepin an added midfielder in the centre of the pitch (defend Duty). Is the opposition getting into our box on every spell of possession because our full back is constantly caught out of position? Maybe put him on a more conservative role/Duty with less Forward running. However, as a simple gauge of whether Things are going Right/wrong….

The AI as Opposition btw isn't capable, and likely won't ever be of "reading" match play on a Micro Level. It likewise though has simple means of increasing/decreasing the likelyhood of scoring/conceding depending on the Situation.

Thx for the advice. Im really trying to get a grip on the tactics. But every time i find something that works, just a few games later it doesnt work at all anymore. For instance i found this tactic now based on my very talented young targetman. So i created this very basic 442 with a shadow striker (i read somewhere the match engine doesnt cope very good with them), direct play, narrow play. Just very basic really. And then for a few matches it works pretty good. But then after 3 matches i get this match with the opposition playing the same formation as others but all of a sudden i create nothing and the opposition outplays me. I just cannot find any consistency in tactics. Its really frustrating.