Inverted winger FM 20

[Jyuan83]

Well it seems we are getting it in the AM L/R areas. I remember posting about the differences I found between the IW and IF on FM19 several weeks back but cannot seem to find the post. In any case, the IF was more likely to keep pushing forward into the box while the IW was aggressive at cutting inside and shooting especially on attack duty. The IF did not really cut much, from what I noticed in my hours of gameplay. So what would it bring to us on FM20? I am taking a stab in the dark that the new IW will be cutting inside more aggressively than an IF from higher up on the pitch which would do well to disrupt defences and open up spaces. Any guess about how it would perform?

[FMunderachiever]

1 hour ago, Jyuan83 said:

Well it seems we are getting it in the AM L/R areas. I remember posting about the differences I found between the IW and IF on FM19 several weeks back but cannot seem to find the post. In any case, the IF was more likely to keep pushing forward into the box while the IW was aggressive at cutting inside and shooting especially on attack duty. The IF did not really cut much, from what I noticed in my hours of gameplay. So what would it bring to us on FM20? I am taking a stab in the dark that the new IW will be cutting inside more aggressively than an IF from higher up on the pitch which would do well to disrupt defences and open up spaces. Any guess about how it would perform?

Would the best way forward for the future not just be a generic attacking wide player that you can design to come inside or stay wide?

I'm not sure what different tendencies an IF and IW would have in the attacking midfield positions, except one to have slightly more tendency to run on the outside of defenders, and one to run on the inside of defenders?

[Jyuan83]

A blank canvas wide forward role is what all of us have been crying out for years, the equivalent of the blank WM role except that it is on the AML/R spectrum. However for some reason we get a role that would not be too different from the IF. 

[Johnny Ace]

I think they'll be pretty similar apart from mentality, I think the IF will have a more aggressive mentality & the IW will become the old IF 

[Experienced Defender]

At the moment, a key difference between IF and IW is that IW - unlike IF - can be told to cross more often and is not hard-coded to play risky passes. I guess (and hope) this difference will remain in place once the IW is introduced into the wide forward position (because otherwise the innovation would make little, if any, sense). IW as a wide forward should therefore help achieve what previously was a hybrid between IF and winger - i.e. when you deliberately play a "natural" IF in a winger role in order to get a bit of both roles. 

[Vali184]

The roles are still there because new players to the FM series will understand better how they work from the different descriptions, than having a generic role for each position and customizing it with player instructions. I would love to get rid of the roles and duties and just give each player specific instructions (the ones we have are IMO limited in numbers), but this wouldn't work if you want to attract more players each year.

 

[yonko]

I hope that in FM20 the IF is made to drift infield off the ball from wide areas, as players do IRL. While the IW is someone who starts wide and cuts inside with the ball. 

[FMunderachiever]

25 minutes ago, yonko said:

I hope that in FM20 the IF is made to drift infield off the ball from wide areas, as players do IRL. While the IW is someone who starts wide and cuts inside with the ball. 

totally agree

a real life example would be Sterling IF, Mahrez IW

[Jyuan83]

The thing is that all wide players on attack duty drift infield when the attack progresses further into the box. The only tangible reason for the IW to be in the AMLR slots as said above by @Experienced Defender is to have an option outside to cross more often in addition to cutting inside, sort of like cutting in a bit to deliver an inswinging cross into the box. 

[cocoadavid]

I guess/hope that in FM20 the positioning/off the ball movement of Inverted Wingers in AMRL starata will be different to Inside Forwards. In the current ME players in the AML/R strata always tend to position themselves  between the lines of the area when the ball is in the final third/opposition half, narrowing the width, making it harder to open up compact defenses. I think it is kinda the correct movement for the Inside Forwads - they are called forwards for a reason, trying to get into the box. But the Winger/Inverted Winger role should play differently, because they are called wingers for a reason, too! In the MLR strata the IW and Winger stay wide for a long time, even when the ball is already in the final third, they should behave similarly when played in the AMRL strata.

SI already confirmed here that they are aware of this false behaviour of wingers in the AMLR strata and are looking into this.

Man City is a perfect real life example if you watch a lot of their matches. For example Mahrez usually hugs the touchline, making space for a Mezzala in the half space, even when the ball is already in the final third, and when he receives the ball out wide, only then starts he to drift inside with the ball at his feet, I think he is a perfect example for an Inverted Winger in the AMR position. While Sterling on the other hand, usually tries to get into the box with his off the ball movement, playing more like an Inside Forward/Raumdauter.

[yonko]

18 hours ago, cocoadavid said:

I guess/hope that in FM20 the positioning/off the ball movement of Inverted Wingers in AMRL starata will be different to Inside Forwards. In the current ME players in the AML/R strata always tend to position themselves  between the lines of the area when the ball is in the final third/opposition half, narrowing the width, making it harder to open up compact defenses. I think it is kinda the correct movement for the Inside Forwads - they are called forwards for a reason, trying to get into the box. But the Winger/Inverted Winger role should play differently, because they are called wingers for a reason, too! In the MLR strata the IW and Winger stay wide for a long time, even when the ball is already in the final third, they should behave similarly when played in the AMRL strata.

SI already confirmed here that they are aware of this false behaviour of wingers in the AMLR strata and are looking into this.

Man City is a perfect real life example if you watch a lot of their matches. For example Mahrez usually hugs the touchline, making space for a Mezzala in the half space, even when the ball is already in the final third, and when he receives the ball out wide, only then starts he to drift inside with the ball at his feet, I think he is a perfect example for an Inverted Winger in the AMR position. While Sterling on the other hand, usually tries to get into the box with his off the ball movement, playing more like an Inside Forward/Raumdauter.

The ME views the AMRL positions as Wide Forwards. That's why these players always end up inside the box in the final third. TBH, I want them there. City's wingers also often end up inside the box to score goals when the ball is in the final third. 

[cocoadavid]

4 hours ago, yonko said:

The ME views the AMRL positions as Wide Forwards. That's why these players always end up inside the box in the final third. TBH, I want them there. City's wingers also often end up inside the box to score goals when the ball is in the final third. 

As I've said, for the Inside Forwards I also think that is the correct movement, and yes, City's wingers often end up inside the box, especially Sterling, but not always. and not both of them, usually one of them holds his position out wide much longer than the ME currently allows. Let me show you an example. (This is just a first picture I've found as I have no time to search for more examples, I could come up with a better one, eg. I remember one where Sané or Sterling hugged the touchline on the left wing in a match, even when the ball was already around/inside the penalty area)



Here you can see that one of the winger targets the box (LW), while the RW holds his position out wide.

[yonko]

On 28/09/2019 at 04:55, cocoadavid said:

As I've said, for the Inside Forwards I also think that is the correct movement, and yes, City's wingers often end up inside the box, especially Sterling, but not always. and not both of them, usually one of them holds his position out wide much longer than the ME currently allows. Let me show you an example. (This is just a first picture I've found as I have no time to search for more examples, I could come up with a better one, eg. I remember one where Sané or Sterling hugged the touchline on the left wing in a match, even when the ball was already around/inside the penalty area)



Here you can see that one of the winger targets the box (LW), while the RW holds his position out wide.

This picture is bad example and doesn't support your argument. The play is in the midfield 3rd. The wide forwards are 15-20 yards away from the penalty box. 

When the ball is close to the penalty box, both or one of the wide forwards is inside the box for sure. Pep's strategy has always been that the wide forwards have to provide width for the first two 3rds of the field. In the final third they have freedom to move into the box. 

Check this break down from Henry.

This is the behavior of the AMRL positions currently in the ME. They are considered wide forwards and end up in the box when play is in the final third...as they should.

[Mbianco]

1 hour ago, yonko said:

This picture is bad example and doesn't support your argument. The play is in the midfield 3rd. The wide forwards are 15-20 yards away from the penalty box. 

When the ball is close to the penalty box, both or one of the wide forwards is inside the box for sure. Pep's strategy has always been that the wide forwards have to provide width for the first two 3rds of the field. In the final third they have freedom to move into the box. 

Check this break down from Henry.

This is the behavior of the AMRL positions currently in the ME. They are considered wide forwards and end up in the box when play is in the final third...as they should.

That’s not totaly true. Sterling act as a wide forward, particulary now that he’s playing on the left. He stays wide and than he cut inside without the ball, occupiyng the halfspace while zinchenko make an overlap.

but if man city is attacking down the right, you have marhez who stays wide even in the final third, so the fullback has to cover him, creating space for the n8 who plays in the halfspace. Ok marhez cut inside often, but with the ball in his feet, so he can stay wide and stretch the pitch for the most time.

Obviusly, if your attacking down the left and the ball is in the final third, your opposite winger must cut in, because it makes no sense to have him wide in this situation. But if i’m playing with a winger and i’m using an invertedwingback or a nononsensefullback, he must stay wide, at least when the attack is on his side 

[cocoadavid]

2 hours ago, yonko said:

This picture is bad example and doesn't support your argument. The play is in the midfield 3rd. The wide forwards are 15-20 yards away from the penalty box. 

When the ball is close to the penalty box, both or one of the wide forwards is inside the box for sure. Pep's strategy has always been that the wide forwards have to provide width for the first two 3rds of the field. In the final third they have freedom to move into the box. 

Check this break down from Henry.

This is the behavior of the AMRL positions currently in the ME. They are considered wide forwards and end up in the box when play is in the final third...as they should.

As I've already said, I agree that it is the correct movement for Inside Forwards and Raumdauters in AMRL positions, but I think that does not mean that every role should play like that in the AMRL strata. And as @Mbianco has explained it, when City plays with a left footed player on the right (Mahrez or Bernardo Silva), that player usually stays wide even when the ball in the final third, and when he receives the ball, then he cuts inside with tha ball at his feet. IMO that is how an Inverted Winger should play.
My example with the picture was really not the best one, because I was in a rush and had no time to look for examples, but here are some better ones.

This first picture is a perfect example what Mbianco talked about: City attacking down the right, the ball is already in the final third. RW (Bernardo Silva) staying wide, so that n8 (De Bruyne) has more space. When RW receives tha ball out wide, only then he starts to cut inside with the ball at his feet.

 

 

In all of those examples a left footed right winger hugs the touchline and provides the width,  the fullback behind him plays more centrally and is not ready to overlap in an instant.

PS:
I hope you take this as a constructive discussion, I do not want any of you to take this as a personal attack on your opinion, all of us has pros and cons, I may be right, I may be wrong.

[Jean0987654321]

That was what most FM players was crying out for years but the developers ignored us. Conte's Chelsea played like this. Two wingers drifting inwards in attack and STAYING there unless the ball is turned over

On 26/09/2019 at 20:33, yonko said:

I hope that in FM20 the IF is made to drift infield off the ball from wide areas, as players do IRL. While the IW is someone who starts wide and cuts inside with the ball. 

 

[CARRERA]

On 25/09/2019 at 14:41, Jyuan83 said:

Well it seems we are getting it in the AM L/R areas.

Where did you read about it? Couldnt find it