Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023

[crusadertsar]

 

Things are starting to look better as the players are gelling better together and tactic getting more fluid. We were only able to come away with a tie (due to a late goal no less) but considering our xG difference and individual player performances I consider it a sign of better things to come. Against the supposedly "better" Barcelona side. You can also see how many chances we had on goal. More than double of theirs. My players just kept the pressure on for the whole game. With many a hit crossbar or close miss. Honestly, watching this match in full was one of a kind edge of the seat experience. And I rarely watch my games in full.

And I actually used the "crazy" 3-4-3 formation here. I feel like since switching to it my team started playing better. Even if it makes me feel a bit more stressed out  But considering we only let one goal in against Barca while playing with only one centreback. I don't know what to think anymore. My 3-4-3 experiment will definitely continue as it got me intrigued.

PS: And we actually had more possession than Barca!

Edited December 12, 2020 by crusadertsar

[crusadertsar]

 

And this is the formation and players I used for the match. Made some slight modifications to the instructions and roles as the match went on. I changed the IF into Attack duty to make it Positive mentality all across the board for my attack, to penetrate this rather defensive Barca side better. Also adding "Dribble Less" as I saw us losing the ball too much during long dribbles in opposition half. After this last change, the passing and possession numbers improved. Also added "More Expressive" to add a bit more roaming and unpredictability for our attack. Here is closer look at detailed stats.

 

Regarding individual performances, Januzaj and Oyarzabal had standout games. They were present everywhere across the final third and in defence even, working hard in our own half (I use "close down more" as individual instruction with all my attackers) and shared in 11 key passes! I really think we could have won this one if only we had a bit more luck on our side in some of the missed shots. 

 

 

And here is my hero. The one and only, Captain Mikel Oyarzabal. Mr.Real Sociedad. My favourite player in any FM game since FM18. And looks like in FM21 will be no different. A true Total Footballer in every sense of the word. I mean he doesn't have a single attribute below 12, and only 5 12s with most being above 13. 

Edited December 13, 2020 by crusadertsar

[DNZ-8]

 

Hey @crusadertsar , how are things moving along with your B-side 3-4-3 tactic? It’s definitely intriguing and I would like to test it out myself. Are you making progress?

[crusadertsar]

1 hour ago, DNZ-8 said:

 

Hey @crusadertsar , how are things moving along with your B-side 3-4-3 tactic? It’s definitely intriguing and I would like to test it out myself. Are you making progress?

Actually just switched to it in last game. The one against Barcelona that I recount in my post above. As you can see it went pretty well. Considering that the tactic is far from fluent. It was a close tie but we actually dominated the game in terms of possession and xG. Judging from this I think I'm going to stick with it as my primary tactic. So expect more updates 

Edited December 13, 2020 by crusadertsar

[DNZ-8]

43 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Actually just switched to it in last game. The one against Barcelona that I recount in my post above. As you can see it went pretty well. Considering that the tactic is far from fluent. It was a close tie but we actually dominated the game in terms of possession and xG. Judging from this I think I'm going to stick with it as my primary tactic. So expect more updates 

That's great! Looking forward to following the updates. As I said I'll give it a try myself as well as soon as I have time. Keep us posted! Thanks!

 

[Sarriball14]

What happened to the Chelsea save, was looking forward to seeing how that developed? 

[BrickCommo23]

Really pleased to have found this thread. I am trying to create something similar on my Arsenal save at the moment. I have ended up slightly amending the base formation as I don't think Arsenal have a natural AMC (I sold Ozil - after giving him a run in the team) so have added an extra body in midfield - so we look like this:

I am hoping the system will create space for Auba on the left hand side  but if not, I will move him up top and rotate in the likes of Smith-Rowe, Nelson and Willian.

If I do set up with an AMC - it looks like this:

Question for @crusadertsaror anyone else -  any thoughts on introducing the DM? Suppose it might lose some of the attacking fun in the final third...

[Joagamecube]

@crusadertsar I really love this thread mate! Been look at it for a while! Love the total football way!

I have been trying to play in a similiar way, also tried out a adjusted version of your 3-4-3, but I have got a couple of questions.
Why use a half-back instead of an anchorman? Is there a reason you don't use 'urgent' pressing? Do you use player instructions?

One thing I also noticed in a game of mine, is that the libero was drawn out of his place by following the striker who was dropping deep to play a simple ball, then another attacker dropped in the space he left and they played a simple troughball to score. Any advice on this? Maybe I should use a regular ball playing defender?

[crusadertsar]

@Sarriball14 Yeah sorry I put the Chelsea save on hold as I really wanted to make the Total Football style work with FM21. Chelsea has some great players but unfortunately lacks in highly technical strikers. I tried to make it work with a pressing forward and you can still create nice overloades at times but in games against higher quality teams you need players that can really hog the  ball and tiki tak it around. Unfortunately Werner nor Tammy Abraham do not really fit into my 3-4-3 as they are not technical enough to play as my striker or inside forward. Even Giroud does not really pass the test. Real Sociedad is a whole other beast. Very technical squad and ideal for possession football from the start.

[crusadertsar]

@BrickCommo23 and @Joagamecube  To answer you both. Indeed DM can be introduced in format like yours and shouldn't take away too much attacking intent. If anything it allows more runners and attackers to be implemented. Especially with the wingbacks. This is actually why I used Half-back role. I was trying to recreate the Pep Guardiola role in that old Cruyff 3-4-3 tactic where out of possession Pep would drop down to play beside sole cebtreback Koeman. So formation would morph into a sort of 4-3-3 in defence.

 

[crusadertsar]

Actually regarding that Koeman's cebtreback role. It has been puzzling me the most. Maybe some of you might hrlpt me with better idea. So far I have to agree with @Joagamecube libero has been too risky. But my problem is that on lower mentality cebtreback, even BPD becomes way too defensive and careful. At the time when I need his individual mentality to be higher in order to get more involved in the buildup and initiate vertical passing. Sort of how BPD does on Positive team mentality. So far with Cautious team mentality I have been hesitating between BPD (Stopper) and Libero (Support). But now libero is not really working out as I too find opposition gets too many through ball opportunities which almost cost me two Euro Cup games that should have been easy to win. 

Any thoughts?

Edited December 13, 2020 by crusadertsar

[Vico Vito Pep]

On 11/12/2020 at 16:09, crusadertsar said:

Oh thats awesome! Hopefully it holds up. I had a rough start of the season. Losing to Real Madrid 2-0. It was close game though. Our xG was actually pretty equal. But nothing like yours. What club you're using?

And which one did you use 4-2-3-1 or 3-4-3?

I used the 4-2-3-1 tactic with Bodø/Glimt. So a bit fluid for me to transition from their usual 4-3-3 setup to 4-2-3-1. I'm regularly getting a XG in the mid 2s anyhow with my emulation tactic. Any how I gave the 4231 Lock Key Overload a go again for fun vs Rosenborg - attaching my 1st Half Stats & Shot Map

[crusadertsar]

@Vico Vito Pep I love those numbers! And against Rosenborg too. Aren't they supposed to be one of the top teams in your league. Keep it up!

And this is what my 3-4-3 did to Atletico Madrid recently. The xG difference wasn't so great but we dominated possession with our stacked midfield. Johan Cruyff had it right, its all about that midfield diamond.

[crusadertsar]

This is the current version I am using. I know I know, I changed from Cautious. But after some tweaking I found that Balanced and the resulting mentalities across the defence and attack seem to work better. Now there is a more gradual change from more cautious mentalities in the back to the mostly positive in the front. Really helps with the vertical Tiki Taka build-up. And we are really solid in the back, rarely leaking goals. Here are the latest results to prove this. That crazy 6-5 win against Slavia Prague was a revelation. Was much too easy for their forward to sneak in behind my libero. So that has been the last time we used the Libero - Halfback combo. Don't know what I was thinking . Since making the switch we had no less than 5 clean sheets. And that's playing with one centreback!

 

Edited December 15, 2020 by crusadertsar

[crusadertsar]

As you can see my idea to emulate Pep's Free 8s role from my FM20 Total Football recreation is alive and still kicking. This time with a pair of Mezzalas in front of the Anchorman. The Two Mikels, Oyarzabal and Merino, are really perfect for this role. Only this time I decided to use two defensive IWBs to move into midfield and take the place of Mezzalas when they attack into their respective halfspaces. So in the end it's a bit of Guardiola-Cruyff hybrid. In attack this helps us overwhelm the opposition with that ideal 2-3-5 shape. That combined with our high pressing is probably why we are dominating possession so much. The only PI I use is "Close down more" on my 6 front players.

Edited December 15, 2020 by crusadertsar

[robterrace]

14 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

As you can see my idea to emulate Pep's Free 8s role from my FM20 Total Football recreation is alive and still kicking. This time with a pair of Mezzalas in front of the Anchorman. The Two Mikels, Oyarzabal and Merino, are really perfect for this role. Only this time I decided to use two defensive IWBs to move into midfield and take the place of Mezzalas when they attack into their respective halfspaces. So in the end it's a bit of Guardiola-Cruyff hybrid. In attack this helps us overwhelm the opposition with that ideal 2-3-5 shape. That combined with out high pressing is probably why we are dominating possession so much. The only PI I use is "Close down more" on my 6 front players.

The pair of Mezzalas is a ballsy option, but, the fact they basically are leaving space in the centre for the wing backs to push to is a fantastic idea, and as such, almost makes it a 1-1-4-3-1 and very Bielsa like in its attacking idea. Of course, defensively, the Mezzala has its use in trying to force the opposition out wide too.

[crusadertsar]

7 hours ago, robterrace said:

The pair of Mezzalas is a ballsy option, but, the fact they basically are leaving space in the centre for the wing backs to push to is a fantastic idea, and as such, almost makes it a 1-1-4-3-1 and very Bielsa like in its attacking idea. Of course, defensively, the Mezzala has its use in trying to force the opposition out wide too.

True I had some defensive concerns. But then when the second best in my mezzala pair is someone like Merino, the opposition is not exactly going to have a walk in the park getting past him and Mikel Oyarzabal. The Two Mikels will just get to them first and take away their shiny ball toy  

Edited December 15, 2020 by crusadertsar

[robterrace]

6 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

True I had some defensive concerns. But then when the second best in my mezzala pair is someone like Merino, the opposition is not exactly going to have a walk in the park getting past him and Oyarzabal. The Two Mikels will just get to them first and take away their shiny ball toy  

Thats where it helps to have a monster in the middle who will work hard and has the strength and fitness to cover every blade of grass. 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

As you can see my idea to emulate Pep's Free 8s role from my FM20 Total Football recreation is alive and still kicking. This time with a pair of Mezzalas in front of the Anchorman. The Two Mikels, Oyarzabal and Merino, are really perfect for this role. Only this time I decided to use two defensive IWBs to move into midfield and take the place of Mezzalas when they attack into their respective halfspaces. So in the end it's a bit of Guardiola-Cruyff hybrid. In attack this helps us overwhelm the opposition with that ideal 2-3-5 shape. That combined with out high pressing is probably why we are dominating possession so much. The only PI I use is "Close down more" on my 6 front players.

Didn't have much chance to test this as most of my players were on the December WC campaign but tried it with junior teams and worked so well I was convinced it would do well with the senior team but this was something akin to Peps Bayern and Man City. Such good work as ever bud. 

[crusadertsar]

1 hour ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

Didn't have much chance to test this as most of my players were on the December WC campaign but tried it with junior teams and worked so well I was convinced it would do well with the senior team but this was something akin to Peps Bayern and Man City. Such good work as ever bud. 

Thanks man. And loly crap! That's a great result even for a U19 team. Cannot believe you almost got 80% possession 

Wow, I would be curious what kind of players and with what attributes you have in your junior team.

Edited December 15, 2020 by crusadertsar

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Thanks man. And loly crap! That's a great result even for a U19 team. Cannot believe you almost got 80% possession 

Wow, I would be curious what kind of players and with what attributes you have in your junior team.

That was the 1st team(Arsenal) was playing Hamburg with over 900 passes completed. Next game in vs Seville at half time I am up 5-0 with these stats. Have to obviously see how it goes in the league but the defensive solidity is excellent.

Edited December 15, 2020 by Crazy_Ivan

[crusadertsar]

@Crazy_Ivan

Nice! Arsenal are well suited for it. I always wondered how Ozil would do in the False9 role.

And I am still amazed how defensively solid it is. Actually better than some tactics I had with four in the back. I consider dropping the Anchorman down as an extra defender when facing formations with two strikers though. And you really need solid players as your IWBs. Going back to Bielsa's idea of playing natural midfielders like Arturo Vidal in that role. 

And as mentioned above, it helps having well-rounded Total Footballers as your Mezzalas. Otherwise you might be overrun. It's very much "playing on the fine edge" kind of tactic. But then if you have a suitable team why not take risks. Pep or Bielsa wouldn't be where they are now if they didn't do that. Johan Cruyff too.

Have fun!

Edited December 15, 2020 by crusadertsar

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

@Crazy_Ivan

Nice! Arsenal are well suited for it. I always wondered how Ozil would do in the False9 role.

And I am still amazed how defensively solid it is. Actually better than some tactics I had with four in the back. I consider dropping the Anchorman down as an extra defender when facing formations with two strikers though. And you really need solid players as your IWBs. Going back to Bielsa's idea of playing natural midfielders like Arturo Vidal in that role. 

And as mentioned above, it helps having well-rounded Total Footballers as your Mezzalas. Otherwise you might be overrun. It's very much playing on the fine edge kind of tactic. But then if you have a suitable team why not take risks. Pep or Bielsa wouldn't be where they are now if they didn't do that. Johan Cruyff too.

Have fun!

Yup aside from the technical abilities, I also look for good aggression, bravery and  work rate in those CM/DM positions. Honestly think you have come very close to completely cracking it.

Edited December 15, 2020 by Crazy_Ivan

[crusadertsar]

3 minutes ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

Yup aside from the technical abilities, I also look for good aggression, bravery and  work rate in those CM/DM positions. Honestly think you have come very close to completely cracking it.

It's something I've been dreaming of doing since FM19 but always struggled against the ME.

Now in FM21 the match engine seems to be suited better than ever for Total Football style. Even better than FM18 I might even say 

[Guest]

12 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

It's something I've been dreaming of doing since FM19 but always struggled against the ME.

Now in FM21 the match engine seems to be suited better than ever for Total Football style. Even better than FM18 I might even say 

Against teams that sit deep it is absolutely brilliant at creating opportunities and domination.

 

[Guest]

On 15/12/2020 at 18:57, crusadertsar said:

It's something I've been dreaming of doing since FM19 but always struggled against the ME.

Now in FM21 the match engine seems to be suited better than ever for Total Football style. Even better than FM18 I might even say 

I have turned off counter-pressing and counter. I found they were causing issues defensively against a lot of teams that weren't parking the bus. The defensive solidity since has been excellent since and whilst yes it has taken some edge off the attacking we still dominate possession and create good chances and if I am chasing a goal I will switch them back on. I just prefer a 3-0 win rather than a 6-3 win. 

You can see where this has led me now. 

Edited December 16, 2020 by Crazy_Ivan

[BrickCommo23]

2 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

I have turned off counter-pressing and counter. I found they were causing issues defensively against a lot of teams that weren't parking the bus. The defensive solidity since has been excellent since and whilst yes it has taken some edge off the attacking we still dominate possession and create good chances and if I am chasing a goal I will switch them back on. I just prefer a 3-0 win rather than a 6-3 win. 

You can see where this has led me now. 

This is great to see. Who are you playing in the AM role? 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, BrickCommo23 said:

This is great to see. Who are you playing in the AM role? 

If you mean the Shadow Striker role, it's Martinelli and the Uruguayan youngster Matias Arezo.

[BrickCommo23]

Just now, Crazy_Ivan said:

If you mean the Shadow Striker role, it's Martinelli and the Uruguayan youngster Matias Arezo.

Nice, thank you. Just wondering if I can make it work with the current Arsenal squad - ie with Martinelli still injured 

[BrickCommo23]

7 minutes ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

If you mean the Shadow Striker role, it's Martinelli and the Uruguayan youngster Matias Arezo.

Oh sorry, are you using the 3 defenders or 4 defenders version? 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, BrickCommo23 said:

Nice, thank you. Just wondering if I can make it work with the current Arsenal squad - ie with Martinelli still injured 

In the current game if it's the first season I like Ceballos. His finishing has improved dramatically since I got him and I use him as my backup False 9 but I also use him as a backup in the AM position. Im in my third season so I have trained him up to play in those spots. As you can imagine I had a huge clear out over the first two seasons.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, BrickCommo23 said:

Oh sorry, are you using the 3 defenders or 4 defenders version? 

This one

 

 

Edited December 16, 2020 by Crazy_Ivan

[BrickCommo23]

18 minutes ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

This one

 

 

Got it, thank you 

[crusadertsar]

@Crazy_Ivanand @BrickCommo23 Me too been really wanting to try this out with Arsenal because it's a club I follow in real life. But dammit there is always too many save ideas with too little time . Every single FM haha. Keeping up with two concurrent save is hard enough right now. And then lately I got a dream to do Lobanovskyi-inspired 3-5-2. 

Edited December 16, 2020 by crusadertsar

[BrickCommo23]

52 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

@Crazy_Ivanand @BrickCommo23 Me too been really wanting to try this out with Arsenal because it's a club I follow in real life. But dammit there is always too many save ideas with too little time . Every single FM haha. Keeping up with two concurrent save is hard enough right now. And then lately I got a dream to do Lobanovskyi-inspired 3-5-2. 

I'm going to come back round to trying to get this to work on my save. 

It'll be the 4231 (or a 41221) version as we don't have a SS in the squad. 

I'll feed back - if you don't mind helping a little you can live vicariously through my save for now... 

[crusadertsar]

Another mini-update for those interested in my Cruyff 3-4-3 Diamond Tactical Experiment

So with the recent FM 21.2 Update I was worried that the tactic would lose its edge. It happened with my previous Total Football tactics. Alas, I was worried for nothing. Real Sociedad keeps on rolling 

As you can see in these results, tactic stood up rather well against the test of a very defensive Atletico Pamplona side. A side that did not want to play football at all. What happens when Total Football and Anti-Football collide?

Actually a rather more positive result than I expected against a parked bus. 

Overall we are 2nd behind Barca in terms of goals scored. But we are 1st in all the possession stats. 

And here are most stats as of the month of January. 4th in LaLiga and tied for points with Barcelona. 

Another highlight of the tactic has been in how it got my Inside Forwards firing on all cylinders. Something that I had difficulty achieving in FM20 before.  So far both of my IFs, Alexander Isak and Januzaj stand at 10 goals each. After playing 16 games. 

I am really loving this player right now. What a complete package and a steal for Real Sociedad he turned out. 

Almost no one else at the start of the game combines all three, raw physical strength, creative intelligence and elegant technique. A perfect example of a Total Football forward.

Edited December 19, 2020 by crusadertsar

[Guest]

It truly is beautiful football to watch the absolute unlocking of packed anti football teams is lovely on the eye. How are you doing defensively and how does it do against the big three?

Oh and another question, are you still using last years training schedule?

Edited December 19, 2020 by Crazy_Ivan

[aritra14]

Just started a Barcelona save, I'll give this a go. 

[Kharza_FM]

8 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

 

Almost no one else at the start of the game combines all three, raw physical strength, creative intelligence and elegant technique. A perfect example of a Total Football forward.

Dortmund kid.. he's a beast in the game.  I loved him in FM 18 too and you are right he is a really good Total Football striker.

[aritra14]

6 hours ago, aritra14 said:

Just started a Barcelona save, I'll give this a go. 

Going fairly well

[aritra14]

U19s have gone crazy with this tactic 

[crusadertsar]

We are even winning with 10 men!

@Crazy_Ivan regarding our defensive play, as you can see below we let in 15 goals in the last 18 games.

It still surprises me that we didnt leak more with this back 3 set up. I mean I just always assumed that playing with less than two centrebacks wasn't a good idea. But I guess not anymore. Yet I can't stress enough how important it is to have defensively solid and highly technical IWBs for this tactic. I ideally I would play very technical natural DMs or centrebacks there like Real's Igor Zubeldia. 

We do have the occasional defensive slip. Especially in the Super Cup lose to Real Madrid. They were playing very wing-focused 4-1-2-3. So I'm not surprised that there we couldn't handle them. I think I'll need to develop another Plan B formation for those kind of tough matches. Would love to hear people's ideas on this.

Edited December 19, 2020 by crusadertsar
Added the results screen

[crusadertsar]

And speaking of Guardiola, we just signed this guy from Man City to make the board happy about my Spanish player signings. I had to admit it felt like quite a coup on our part. And even felt guilty (for just a second) stealing him from Pep. Don't know why he was available for free .

 I think he will do very well if retrained as either IWB on left or right. Or even just playing as our central BPD, subbing for our vice-captain Aritz Elustondo

I think its probably just the case of Man City having too many world-class CBs with Laporte, Ruben Diaz and Stones. Poor Guardiola, he must have big selection headaches in real life 

 

Edited December 19, 2020 by crusadertsar

[Pep468]

2 hours ago, aritra14 said:

Going fairly well

That looks interesting, what’s your roles and formations and TI’s?

[aritra14]

4 hours ago, aritra14 said:

Going fairly well

I settled on this shape after some tinkering, went a bit wider and changed the striker role.

[aritra14]

2 hours ago, Pep468 said:

That looks interesting, what’s your roles and formations and TI’s?

yeah, Messi as a target man 

[aritra14]

2 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Holy molly   ! If thats your U19 results, would love to see that Barcelona First Team does with it. Keep us updated mate!

And that formation shape is beautiful. Guardiola's favourite 2-3-5 in possession!

I have no idea whats going on at the academy 

[aritra14]

Just now, crusadertsar said:

You are not using the 3-4-3 version? This is the other overload one?

This is the one from the Ozil thread of 2016 - was one of my favorite formations across all FMs. Your 1 CB tactic was way too adventurous for me. 

[crusadertsar]

14 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

Oh and another question, are you still using last years training schedule?

Sorry forgot to answer this one. But no I'm not using last year's Total Football schedule. I created another one that's more attribute focused. And hopefully more simple to use. Narrows it down from three different schedules to only two. And more universal that you could apply at any time in the season or pre-season. The aim is to hit and develop all three areas needed for Total Football - physical, tactical and technical. All the time. It's quite intense but seems to work especially well with young footballers. 

For now I don't want to go into too much detail because actually this will be the topic for my next article this upcoming Monday . I'll post the body of it on here as always. 

Edited December 19, 2020 by crusadertsar

[crusadertsar]

And here are probably the best possession stats that I have seen in the game so far. Over 900s passes on our part!  And for most of the match we were actually at 80% possession, only dipping in the last third when I subbed in some fresh youngsters to see if they could get another goal through Getafe's parked bus. Getafe of course did not really want to play football, prefering to sit back in their 5-4-1 with 3 CBs and 2 DMs. 

And I usually don't bother with the fake fans social media comments in the game, but had a bit of a laugh when I read the ones for this one. I guess I'm a "possession nerd" because I really got excited watching that match and seeing our pass completion numbers  So yeah totally agree with Tony Phiwayinkhosi! 

Edited December 19, 2020 by crusadertsar