Everything TOTAL Football (From Cruyff's 343 to Guardiola's Overloads) - UPDATED Feb 28, 2023

[crusadertsar]

1 hour ago, JahRastafari said:

Really enjoying this thread @crusadertsar! How is the experimenting going with the 3-4-3? New update coming? 
I'm planning a game with Ajax during the upcoming holidays using a 3-4-3 with the new CB role and a 4-3-3 to counter opposition formations flusskrebs mentioned above. 

I'm in a process of making some tweaks actually to make it more stable defensively (especially on the wings). Should post some results on here in the coming weeks. Drawing more inspiration from Van Gaal's version of 3-4-3 diamond too 

Edited November 25, 2021 by crusadertsar

[indyvidu]

3 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

I'm in a process of making some tweaks actually to make it more stable defensively (especially on the wings). Should post some results on here in the coming weeks. Drawing more inspiration from Van Gaal's version of 3-4-3 diamond too 

haha was also doing the same... making a mix between them...  van Gaal was less fluid, more structured. Looking forward what you are making of it... Im still tweaking it match by match too. 

[crusadertsar]

Introducing FM22 "Hard Mode"

My advise to any new Football Manager player, don't be afraid of change. If your tactical approach isn't working, don't keep doing the same thing hoping for different results. That's madness. Sometimes even the most logical tactics don't work. You might feel compelled to stick with the tactic to the bitter end. After-all, you've invested valuable time coming up with the formation and recruiting suitable players. And most of the time it's not your fault. On paper the theory is sound. And the players suit the tactic perfectly. Yet, the style you chose is one that most opponents in your league are able to counter easily. As they say, don't come to a gun fight with a knife. Even the best knife in the world won't help. The reasons for tactical failure could be many. But the solution isn't to persist with same approach until you lose your virtual job.

This is more or less the tactical approach that I have been trying since the start of the Beta. You can read more about it in my previous update.

While it has been quite productive in the beginning, it became more leaky and less consistent the more I played with it. I tested this formation with two very good teams, Real Sociedad and Porto. Both teams had relatively strong technical squads. While Sociedad was lacking in pace on the wings, Porto's squad seemed perfect for this style. Nevertheless after about 3-4 in-game months, I was not happy with the results. With both teams underperforming, I decided to hit the reset button. I felt like I needed both a tactical change and a change in my choice of club to test 3-4-3 Diamond with. I was definitely not ready to give up on Cruyff's diamond. Instead, I decided to incorporate some of the advise found on Sports Interactive forum and come up with the following formation.

Above is the modified formation, that I finally settled on. Still a 3-4-3 Diamond at its heart, but with a few very important changes which I will discuss soon. It might not look like Cruyff's original Barcelona tactic but more importantly it still plays like it when in possession.

So without further ado, I am leaving my Beta saves behind and presenting the club I will be using for the remainder of my FM22 Total Football experiment. The one and only, Los Leones! The Athletic Club de Bilbao. One of the most unique managerial experiences that any FM player could, and should, experience. It is a save that I repeat almost every year in Football Manager, going back to FM14. There is a good reason why. It is probably the most fun you will have in any version of the game. Even if you are new to the game. Especially if you are new to the game. It's the save I recommend if you want to learn more about the advanced elements of the game. Elements such as negotiating contracts, developing your scouting network and assessing your team to come up with the most suitable tactic.

 

Athletic Bilbao - Football Manager's Secret Hard Mode

When new FM players ask me what is the single best way to learn the ropes in the game, or to take your game to the next level, I always suggest the same thing. Start a save with one specific club in the game (and stick with this save for at least one season). Trust me you will thank me for it later. The cool thing about this method of learning the game is that it works for any version of the game, whether it is the newest 2022 iteration or my personal favourite FM2014. Also this club that I want you to choose will always be the same. The one and only, Athletic Bilbao. The unofficial "Hard Mode" of Football Manager.

In my opinion, the most effective way to improve your skills at anything is through persistent challenge. This way you have no choice but try to use all of the tools at your disposal. And if you do not succeed from the start then you must persevere until you achieve your goal. Furthermore, it triggers a self-perpetuating cycle. The satisfaction you get from such hard-won success will breed more desire to experience it all over again.

A save with Athletic Bilbao will offer you a fair amount of challenge. And the the high you will get from the eventual success will feed right into this positive reinforcement loop. It's something that keeps my Athletic saves fresh and going far longer than any campaign I had with big clubs like Barcelona or Man City. It's rather simple, Bilbao's Basque only policy forces you to focus on developing your youth talent from within.

The option of buying Basque players from other Spanish clubs, like Sociedad or Osasuna, is always there of course. But the history of fierce rivalries between the Basque-region clubs adds some extra challenge. The way that rivalries are coded in the game, it's assured that prizing promising talent from rival clubs will be next to impossible or, at best, very pricy. So even 20 years into the save, and with a sizable transfer budget, you still won't be able to "buy" your way to victory.

I always play my Athletic saves as a youth academy challenge. Meaning that I avoid signing Spanish players who are 16 y.o or younger. While such players can gain Basque nationality and can therefore play for Athletic, I stick with a more purist approach of giving a chance to the players that come through our own academy or cantera (fittingly "quarry" in Spanish). Sometimes infrequently I will sign a player who comes from a cantera of one of the other Basque clubs (especially the big ones like Eibar, Real Sociedad, Osasuna and Alaves). But that is only if I have no Athletic youngster to fit the role required by our tactic. Our own kids will always get priority over any similarly skilled youngster from another club. Being part of Atheltic Bilbao is not just about belonging to a football club, but more about being part of the Bilbao family.

Promoting local talent and building from within is at the heart of Athletic Bilbao philosophy. Such local-biased approach to team building is a breath of fresh air in our current globalized footballing world ruled by TV money deals and the constant pursuit of next big wonderkid. It also what makes each Athletic save into one of the most unique experiences in Football Manager. Back in the days of FM14, it's what drew me to managing this club from the picturesque Bay of Bay of Biscay region encompassing parts of Spain and France.

I always liked developing youth talent in FM games, and at Athletic Bilbao youth development is everything. It's the main meal and not simply an appetizer of your managing experience.

Furthermore, managing Athletic can turn into a superb learning experiences when it comes to critically assessing the strengths and weaknesses of your squad, and deciding which players to build your tactic around. You have no choice but to get good at this aspect of the game because of having to deal with a limited pool of players. No longer will you be able to dismiss a player simply because his ability score is 2.5 stars and not 3.

Sometimes you will find yourself holding onto the player long past the time you would normally do in any other save because there are just no other candidates for his role. A player languishing in your B team, could suddenly become your first choice striker. You will learn to be flexible with your expectations and think more along the lines of real football managers. Don't choose a player because he has 5 star potential but because he has the best set of attributes to perform his specific role in the tactic. An Athletic save will teach you how to build a team with very good depth and how to use the reserve system properly to develop your youngsters. Finally, you will appreciate your current players more once you are no longer driven by the pursuit of the next 5 star wonderkid.

And when you do finally decide to pull that transfer trigger scouting for the next big Basque wonderkid becomes a separate game in itself. Developing an extensive scouting network early in your save can reap rewards years into your save. Finding the next Spanish international superstar from a small regional Basque club is almost as rewarding as getting that Golden Generation youth intake.

Anyway, I digress. If there is enough interest I could discuss my scouting tips in a future update. For now lets examine the latest modification of my 3-4-3 Diamond tactic and why I think Athletic Bilbao is such a good fit for it.

As you can see, I made a few modifications to give more defensive solidity to the formation. The first major change involved moving the wingers back to the ML/MR positions like in the original iteration of the tactic. Then dropping one of the midfielders into the DM position as a DLP, required the mezzala to move up into the AMC position as a AM(S). This way the balance of the original diamond could be preserved. So when the DLP moves up when in possession and the supporting AMC (Munian) drops (has a comes deep to get ball trait) an asymmetric diamond is formed. To compensate for the more conservative midield, both WMs are very offensively-minded players with good pace and aggressive traits such as "Get Further Forward" (Berenguer) and "Move into Channels" (I.Williams). Nevertheless they possess relatively high attributes in positioning, acceleration and workrate. Meaning that they will readily drop back into their defensive positions in MR/ML strata when not in possession. Not being in advanced strata gives them the advantage in defence. They should be better at getting back into their defensive positions during the opposition counter-attack. And like in the previous version of the tactic I use the same specific marking instruction. So the wingers will be marking opposition wingbacks or fullbacks. 

 

NEXT UPDATE: More notes on how the tactic is performing with the new club. Analyzing the beautiful depth of Athletic Bilbao. The 1st/2nd team rotation - key to success in La Liga.

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2021 by crusadertsar

[endadc]

excellent, good timing. was really struggling with tactics. 

[endadc]

How did you get slightly lower on attacking? i can only get on positive

[crusadertsar]

30 minutes ago, endadc said:

How did you get slightly lower on attacking? i can only get on positive

Not sure. Are you playing with today's ME update? I took this screenshot last night before the update. It's possible that they made some changes to mentalities. Do you still get attacking mentality for support strikers like False 9 and AMC on support?  

Edited December 7, 2021 by crusadertsar

[endadc]

4 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Not sure. Are you playing with today's ME update? I took this screenshot last night before the update. It's possible that they made some changes to mentalities. Do you still get attacking mentality for support strikers like False 9 and AMC on support?  

On attacking team mentality AM support is very attacking individual mentality, F9 is very attackin and PF is attacking. The new new team mentality individually is:

SK: Positive

DCL: Balanced

DC: Cautious

DCR: Positive 

DLP: Positive

HB: Balanced 

WM: Attacking

SS: Very Attacking 

AMs: Very Attacking 

PF: Very Attacking 

Is this what you have?

[endadc]

Look forward to your update and you should do a scouting post too. 

Any player instructions?

[Sarriball14]

16 hours ago, endadc said:

Look forward to your update and you should do a scouting post too. 

Any player instructions?

I’d also like to see the scouting set up, never really had be that specific when it comes to scouting in my saves so it would be good to get some tips

[endadc]

Hi crusader 

there is a good fm22 Bilbao thread and someone uses a similar tactic although totally different style. Changes in the match engine could impact but is definitely worth a look 

[crusadertsar]

47 minutes ago, endadc said:

Hi crusader 

there is a good fm22 Bilbao thread and someone uses a similar tactic although totally different style. Changes in the match engine could impact but is definitely worth a look 

Yeah i think i know what thread you are talking about. Will take a look. It's funny how came up with similar formation. Given Bilbao's lack of good fullbacks (both first choices have long-term injuries) three in the back seems like a perfect system in first season.

[crusadertsar]

Building Another Diamond - New Save, New Inspiration

 

The idea behind the tactic is rather simple. To be honest I was inspired quite a bit by Louis van Gaal's own take on 3-4-3 Diamond. Having taken over Ajax in the footsteps of Johan Cruyff, he surprisingly came up with a style that was rather similar to what Cruyff was doing at Barcelona in early 90s. To say that van Gaal was inspired by his one time fierce rival is probably an understatement. But you definitely would not want to say this to him in his face.

Nevertheless, Louis van Gaal's masterful use of of 3-4-3 diamond led to Ajax's second golden period of success. With the staunch Dutchman at the helm the team experienced unprecedented era of success throughout the mid-1990s. A golden era which was capped with a 1995 Champions League trophy. Domestically, Ajax were impossible to play against. Throughout 1994-1995 season they were undefeated, retaining the title with a record of 27 wins, seven draws and no losses. All the while scoring an incredible 106 goals. That's an average of 3.12 per game! 3-4-3 Diamond was king again. But how did Louis van Gaal's diamond differed from Johan Cruyff's.

The style Louis implemented at Ajax was more direct and attack-minded than what Cruyff developed at Barca. It was much more varied with more intense focus out wide. Not surprising given the quality that van Gaal possessed in the winger positions. Both George and Overmars were generational talents.

In his prime, Marc Overmars was an "the archetypal winger" possessing incredible pace, vision, dribbling and two-footedness. He could get the better of most slower defenders and either score or assist goals. In fact pace and acceleration were such an important part of his game that they earned him his nicknames TGV and Roadrunner. Finidi George was a player in much similar mold. He is still considered to be one of the greatest wingers to have come from Nigeria. In addition to being extremely fast and very good dribbler, George was also tall (6 ft 3 in) which aided him in getting on to the end of crosses from his opposite wing partner.

With two world-class wingers patrolling the flanks it is not surprising that van Gaal decided to go with an out-and-out striker upfront. Although it could be argued that Patrick Kluivert was the most complete Dutch striker of all time. He possessed the physique (pace and height) of a Targetman married to strong technical skills and football intelligence of a graceful Trequartista. All in all, a very versatile player. Kluivert used his height, and strong physique to dominate aerial balls with one of the best headers in the game. Aside from his sharp eye for goal, he also possessed good vision couple with tactical understanding of playing in several other positions across the pitch. And van Gaal knew how to fit his young Dutch prodigy into his 3-4-3 diamond.

Although Louis van Gaal's striker did not play like a simple poacher, neither was he a False 9 that Cruyff used at Barcelona (with Laudrup, prior to arrival of Romario). Ideally I would play a Complete Forward on attack duty here. Or you do not have a complete enough player, a Pressing Forward or Advanced Forward. Basically you want someone who is not afraid to get in the face of opposition defenders and really pin their defensive line back. But at the same time he should be intelligent enough to realize that dropping back to support the midfielders is necessary during build up sometimes. Hence, you will definitely want a well-rounded forward with decently high attributes in both Teamwork and Workrate.

Meet my newest acquisition from the rival Real Sociedad. Kuki (my personal nickname for him because I cannot hope to pronounce his name correctly). And our future young Basque star to lead Athletic to continental glory. Hopefully he will do for Atheletic what Kluivert did for Ajax.

Behind our striker is where my system appears to differ a little from van Gaal's and Cruyff's. Both of their Diamonds employed some kind of shadow striker in AMC position. Litmanen at 1995 Ajax and Bakero at 1992 Barcelona. As per in-game description of shadow striker, you'll want one of your hardest workers in this role. If not THE most hardworking attacker. Similarly to the sole central striker, you do not want a player that disappears during transition or out-of-possession phase. Athletic's Raul Garcia still remains a great example of a shadow striker, even if his physical attributes declined somewhat.

Winning the ball high up the field and transitioning quickly into attack, were important elements in both van Gaal's and Cruyff's tactics. Hence I decided that in the FM22 to help us achieve this, it is better to have another hard-working midfielder in the AMC position. Having two attacking midfielders in close proximity to the striker will firstly help to pick up any headers or layoffs coming from the striker. Secondly having as many as five players (once your fast wingers join in) in advanced positions should make our pressing game much more effective. But rather than having two shadow strikers attacking the same space and moving into the same space, I opted for another more supportive midfielder. This way we could create a sort of staggered sideways diamond (or rectangle if you will). The combination of an attack and support duty helps in creating more varied and complimentary movements.

In the image above, note how most of our shots are coming from within the penalty area. Then in the bottom left panel you can see our player average positioning. In order to help create that distinct diamond shape in possession, there are some specific player instructions that I use.

Having my attacking midfielders stay wider while the wide midfielders stray narrower ensures that they are more compact. Thus they can make themselves more readily available for short passes and one-twos. Also it helps us overload both half-spaces at the same time. The right wide midfielder, Inaki Williams, is additionally told to "get further forward" to better exploit the space created by the supporting attacking midfielder.

The only other PIs I use are "close down more" on my Half-Back and DLP. And "stay wider" on the Ball-playing Defender.

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by crusadertsar

[Cult of Football Manager]

Fair play to develop a tactic like this with probably one of the hardest teams to test and develop a tactic with. Great stuff mate look forward to see how it all comes together and how your results turn out!

[Sarriball14]

3 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Building Another Diamond - New Save, New Inspiration

 

The idea behind the tactic is rather simple. To be honest I was inspired quite a bit by Louis van Gaal's own take on 3-4-3 Diamond. Having taken over Ajax in the footsteps of Johan Cruyff, he surprisingly came up with a style that was rather similar to what Cruyff was doing at Barcelona in early 90s. To say that van Gaal was inspired by his one time fierce rival is probably an understatement. But you definitely would not want to say this to him in his face.

Nevertheless, Louis van Gaal's masterful use of of 3-4-3 diamond led to Ajax's second golden period of success. With the staunch Dutchman at the helm the team experienced unprecedented era of success throughout the mid-1990s. A golden era which was capped with a 1995 Champions League trophy. Domestically, Ajax were impossible to play against. Throughout 1994-1995 season they were undefeated, retaining the title with a record of 27 wins, seven draws and no losses. All the while scoring an incredible 106 goals. That's an average of 3.12 per game! 3-4-3 Diamond was king again. But how did Louis van Gaal's diamond differed from Johan Cruyff's.

The style Louis implemented at Ajax was more direct and attack-minded than what Cruyff developed at Barca. It was much more varied with more intense focus out wide. Not surprising given the quality that van Gaal possessed in the winger positions. Both George and Overmars were generational talents.

In his prime, Marc Overmars was an "the archetypal winger" possessing incredible pace, vision, dribbling and two-footedness. He could get the better of most slower defenders and either score or assist goals. In fact pace and acceleration were such an important part of his game that they earned him his nicknames TGV and Roadrunner. Finidi George was a player in much similar mold. He is still considered to be one of the greatest wingers to have come from Nigeria. In addition to being extremely fast and very good dribbler, George was also tall (6 ft 3 in) which aided him in getting on to the end of crosses from his opposite wing partner.

With two world-class wingers patrolling the flanks it is not surprising that van Gaal decided to go with an out-and-out striker upfront. Although it could be argued that Patrick Kluivert was the most complete Dutch striker of all time. He possessed the physique (pace and height) of a Targetman married to strong technical skills and football intelligence of a graceful Trequartista. All in all, a very versatile player. Kluivert used his height, and strong physique to dominate aerial balls with one of the best headers in the game. Aside from his sharp eye for goal, he also possessed good vision couple with tactical understanding of playing in several other positions across the pitch. And van Gaal knew how to fit his young Dutch prodigy into his 3-4-3 diamond.

Although Louis van Gaal's striker did not play like a simple poacher, neither was he a False 9 that Cruyff used at Barcelona (with Laudrup, prior to arrival of Romario). Ideally I would play a Complete Forward on attack duty here. Or you do not have a complete enough player, a Pressing Forward or Advanced Forward. Basically you want someone who is not afraid to get in the face of opposition defenders and really pin their defensive line back. But at the same time he should be intelligent enough to realize that dropping back to support the midfielders is necessary during build up sometimes. Hence, you will definitely want a well-rounded forward with decently high attributes in both Teamwork and Workrate.

Meet my newest acquisition from the rival Real Sociedad. Kuki (my personal nickname for him because I cannot hope to pronounce his name correctly). And our future young Basque star to lead Athletic to continental glory. Hopefully he will do for Atheletic what Kluivert did for Ajax.

Behind our striker is where my system appears to differ a little from van Gaal's and Cruyff's. Both of their Diamonds employed some kind of shadow striker in AMC position. Litmanen at 1995 Ajax and Bakero at 1992 Barcelona. As per in-game description of shadow striker, you'll want one of your hardest workers in this role. If not THE most hardworking attacker. Similarly to the sole central striker, you do not want a player that disappears during transition or out-of-possession phase. Athletic's Raul Garcia still remains a great example of a shadow striker, even if his physical attributes declined somewhat.

Winning the ball high up the field and transitioning quickly into attack, were important elements in both van Gaal's and Cruyff's tactics. Hence I decided that in the FM22 to help us achieve this, it is better to have another hard-working midfielder in the AMC position. Having two attacking midfielders in close proximity to the striker will firstly help to pick up any headers or layoffs coming from the striker. Secondly having as many as five players (once your fast wingers join in) in advanced positions should make our pressing game much more effective. But rather than having two shadow strikers attacking the same space and moving into the same space, I opted for another more supportive midfielder. This way we could create a sort of staggered sideways diamond (or rectangle if you will). The combination of an attack and support duty helps in creating more varied and complimentary movements.

In the image above, note how most of our shots are coming from within the penalty area. Then in the bottom left panel you can see our players average positioning. In order to help create that district diamond shape in possession, there are some specific player instructions that I use.

Having my attacking midfielders stay wider while the wide midfielders stray narrower ensures that they are more compact. Thus they can make themselves more readily available for short passes and one-twos. Also it helps us overload both half-spaces at the same time. The right wide midfielder, Inaki Williams, is additionally told to "get further forward" to better exploit the space created by the supporting attacking midfielder.

The only other PIs I use are "close down more" on my Half-Back and DLP. And "stay wider" on the Ball-playing Defender.

 

Are you still using the same training schedules?

[crusadertsar]

3 hours ago, Sarriball14 said:

Are you still using the same training schedules?

Yes 

[Sarriball14]

30 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Yes 

What about for the B,C and youth teams?

[crusadertsar]

1 minute ago, Sarriball14 said:

What about for the B,C and youth teams?

I never control training for those. But they do run the same tactic as the First Team.

[RenegadeMaster]

Hi @crusadertsar, looking forward to seeing how you get on with your Bilbao save. 

Just started a save with Salford last week and and promoted to league one, the intention of the save to win the CL by implementing a total football philosophy. 

[endadc]

Just loaded up a save for the weekend, looking forward to your updates. 

[crusadertsar]

MINI-UPDATE: A Story of One Match

 

 

Latest results with the most recent "Christmas Tree" version of the tactic at Athletic Bilbao. 

The game against Real Madrid. AWAY game at  Santiago Bernabéu.

Our first real serious opposition and a test of the tactic. It was a match that I was dreading because I felt that there were two ways that it could go. Either REALLY bad or just a little bad. In the end we did a lot better than I expected! So guess the tactic is not too bad after-all. I was especially surprised by how solid defensively the formation was. We really should have conceded way more goals against the strong Real Madrid side. Especially if you look at how many more shots and ball possession they had. We just were a bit more lucky and clinical in our chances. Actually MUCH more clinical as we only had half of the shots they had. So I am hoping this is a good sign for how the tactic will do against lesser opposition.

At some point I was even hoping that we could win. Up to the 76th minute mark (Hazard's goal from a freekick) Athletic was actually leading 3 to 1. 

Then in the last 3 minutes of the match, still leading 3-2, I told the boys to start wasting time and not to play as wide. And by some Football Manager magic, Real Madrid get a game-tying goal. At 2nd minute of added time! 

It was positively heart-wrenching. Totally ball-crushing

Felt like we had our 3 points robbed from under our very feet.

But at least Los Leones managed to get 1 point which is still 1 more than 0. And my wonderkid Jon "Kukki" Karrikaburu scored his first goal! In real style and against Real Madrid of all teams. Couldn't have asked for a better start for the 18 year old. And as another concession prize, I can gloat in the knowledge that every single one of our goals was a result of open play passing combinations while all but the last of Real Madrid's 3 goals (that Benzama long-distance strike was really a sight to behold) resulted from set-pieces. I guess we still need to work on our set-piece defence strategies 

How do you draw out the last dying minutes of those really tight games where you are an underdog but somehow leading miraculously? Any tips are welcome

 

Added fun note below. I don't usually follow fake social media in the game. But that comment by CM made me laugh out loud  Gotta use that one in real life next time I talk about Everton blowing another lead. 

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by crusadertsar

[crusadertsar]

On to next match. And a 2-0 victory against our bitter Basque rival - Real Sociedad! What a game! 

A very interesting match. Another one that had me on the edge of my seat for more than half of it. At first it seemed like a cakewalk. We were actually leading 2-0 by 27 minute mark. Both goals thanks to our club hero Inaki Williams. But then before the end of the period Inaki's temper got the better of him and he earned a red card and an early shower. Proving for once and for all that you can be both a hero and a villain in the same match. 

In the end thanks to some hard work, tactical adjustments, careful substitutions, a few miracle saves by Unai Simon (and more than a bit of luck) we survived unscathed.

On to the next match! Against Barcelona 

Goazen Lehoiak!!!

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by crusadertsar

[endadc]

much better start than me, i had barca and sociedad and drew with barca and lost to sociedad. 

[crusadertsar]

19 minutes ago, endadc said:

much better start than me, i had barca and sociedad and drew with barca and lost to sociedad. 

Drawing with Barca is still a good accomplishment. They are a very tough team to play. I lost to them actually.

[endadc]

i know it was a last minute equaliser so im still a little annoyed lol. I love how solid defensively it is but sometimes there seems to be a gap between midfield and forwards. do you find that?

[endadc]

Finished First season in 4th, ended up increasing defensive line and line of engagement to bridge the gap but needed to switch to a  4312 with about 10 games to go to get 4th. Signed a bunch of 16 yr olds at the end of the season.  

[crusadertsar]

22 hours ago, endadc said:

i know it was a last minute equaliser so im still a little annoyed lol. I love how solid defensively it is but sometimes there seems to be a gap between midfield and forwards. do you find that?

I have been telling my wide midfielders to play narrower to help with giving more support between the forwards and the defensive midfielders. At the same time my two advanced midfielders are told to play wider and close down more. I find it's a good way to ensure that we press hard from the front and that wide spaces are better defended. 

My wide midfielders still tend to go wide once we have the ball. "Run wide with the ball" PI helps with this immensely. So far Inaki Williams is flourishing in this system. He scored 4 goals in four games. And Berengeur is great at assisting. He is my leader in assisting goals so far, aiding on four of them

Edited December 12, 2021 by crusadertsar

[endadc]

11 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

I have been telling my wide midfielders to play narrower to help with giving more support between the forwards and the defensive midfielders. At the same time my two advanced midfielders are told to play wider and close down more. I find it's a good way to ensure that we press hard from the front and that wide spaces are better defended. 

My wide midfielders still tend to go wide once we have the ball. "Run wide with the ball" PI helps with this immensely. So far Inaki Williams is flourishing in this system. He scored 4 goals in four games. And Berengeur is great at assisting. He is my leader in assisting goals so far, aiding on four of them

inaki ended up season top scorer, i did sign kuki but i think my one might be a lower end PA. Look forward to your updates 

[crusadertsar]

49 minutes ago, endadc said:

inaki ended up season top scorer, i did sign kuki but i think my one might be a lower end PA. Look forward to your updates 

Yeah Kukki can be hot or cold depending on how lucky you are in drawing a good potential at the start. But especially in getting a good determination attribute which is always random.

While alot of his mental attributes are random when you start a save, if you get a good starting potential with a decent determination (above 12) you can pretty much mold him into a very complete striker. 

I was lucky enough to get one with excellent workrate, teamwork and other mental attributes like anticipation and off the ball. Also, my Kukki's technicals and physical attributes practically make him 1st team ready from the start. I forsee that he will push my poor Asier Villalibre into 2nd choice striker role before the end of this season. Jon can be a truly special young player.

However, what i noticed alot in many of my saves in both FM21 and FM22, is that determination is very important in how fast and well a young player develops.

Sometimes you get a wonderkid newgen with tremendous potential who sadly stagnates because his determination is too low. In older games it was very easy to fix this with mentoring by a player with much higher determination than the youngster. Nowdays however, in the last two versions of the game at least, this does not seem such a surefire solution. The increases in determination happen so slowly that (unless you have a very young 15-16 y.o player) you probably won't see any significant increase. Despite constant mentoring for months or even years. So in a 19 year old with low determination (below 6) his attribute probably won't rise much above 10. 

I guess it's just one of those things that SI is trying to make more realistic. In real life, most young players' personality and approach to training has been set by the time they are in their late teenagehood. Just as it is in all of us.

Although it's a part of the game that i kind of like. Makes you really appreciate that one trully special player who despite his young age has a very mature approach to the game and is head and shoulders above most of his peers in his dedication in training.

 

Edited December 12, 2021 by crusadertsar

[Sarriball14]

How is everyone getting on with the tactic? I’m playing as Bilbao, but I’m finding it a real struggle, being absolutely dominated every game. Don’t get me wrong when we score a goal it’s beautiful football but chances are few and far between, some of the results I’m getting even at home against considerably weaker opposition has left me wondering if I’m missing something here 

[crusadertsar]

10 minutes ago, Sarriball14 said:

How is everyone getting on with the tactic? I’m playing as Bilbao, but I’m finding it a real struggle, being absolutely dominated every game. Don’t get me wrong when we score a goal it’s beautiful football but chances are few and far between, some of the results I’m getting even at home against considerably weaker opposition has left me wondering if I’m missing something here 

Not sure what to tell you. Other than that's it's not really meant to be a plug and play type of tactic that wins most games without your constant input.

Personally, I have been watching most games on comprehensive highlights and making little tweeks like dropping the defensive line or going from attacking to balanced mentality for some games (for Real Madrid). It's still a very narrow system which gives it a natural disadvantage against most teams that pack their wings using 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3. Honestly if I wanted to get easy wins or to break scoring records I would probably go with something like a 4-2-3-1 or even simple 4-4-2. But for me the fun is in making a more unique formation successful rather than winning with something that everyone is using right now.

So yeah use this tactic at your own peril I guess 

[endadc]

22 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Personally, I have been watching most games on comprehensive highlights and making little tweeks like dropping the defensive line or going from attacking to balanced mentality for some games (for Real Madrid). It's still a very narrow system which gives it a natural disadvantage against most teams that pack their wings using 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3. Honestly if I wanted to get easy wins or to break scoring records I would probably go with something like a 4-2-3-1 or even simple 4-4-2. But for me the fun is in making a more unique formation successful rather than winning with something that everyone is using right now.

 

how is your season going? i'm just starting 2, i sold Muniain for 44, he just became so disruptive. 

[gokalpcakir1]

56 dakika önce, crusadertsar said:

Not sure what to tell you. Other than that's it's not really meant to be a plug and play type of tactic that wins most games without your constant input.

Personally, I have been watching most games on comprehensive highlights and making little tweeks like dropping the defensive line or going from attacking to balanced mentality for some games (for Real Madrid). It's still a very narrow system which gives it a natural disadvantage against most teams that pack their wings using 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3. Honestly if I wanted to get easy wins or to break scoring records I would probably go with something like a 4-2-3-1 or even simple 4-4-2. But for me the fun is in making a more unique formation successful rather than winning with something that everyone is using right now.

So yeah use this tactic at your own peril I guess 

I want to try your tactic. Can you leave the file attachment?

[Sarriball14]

1 hour ago, crusadertsar said:

Not sure what to tell you. Other than that's it's not really meant to be a plug and play type of tactic that wins most games without your constant input.

Personally, I have been watching most games on comprehensive highlights and making little tweeks like dropping the defensive line or going from attacking to balanced mentality for some games (for Real Madrid). It's still a very narrow system which gives it a natural disadvantage against most teams that pack their wings using 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3. Honestly if I wanted to get easy wins or to break scoring records I would probably go with something like a 4-2-3-1 or even simple 4-4-2. But for me the fun is in making a more unique formation successful rather than winning with something that everyone is using right now.

So yeah use this tactic at your own peril I guess 

Don’t get me wrong the football at times is amazing to watch, but also very easily carved open through the middle a lot. Think I need to adjust a few things to make us more solid defensively. Im not looking for easy wins at all, this is one of the first saves where I’ve really tried to focus on the footballing side of things. Just struggling to see how I can be more solid in defense without messing around with the formation whilst trying to keep the playing style the same 

[endadc]

1 minute ago, Sarriball14 said:

Don’t get me wrong the football at times is amazing to watch, but also very easily carved open through the middle a lot. Think I need to adjust a few things to make us more solid defensively. Im not looking for easy wins at all, this is one of the first saves where I’ve really tried to focus on the footballing side of things. Just struggling to see how I can be more solid in defense without messing around with the formation whilst trying to keep the playing style the same 

I agree, i love these saves, although this year it seems a lot more difficult. Defensive line and team mentality seem like good tweaks, i pushed LOE and defensive line to maximum in the first season after a few difficult losses and in my second season im dropping an AMC into midfield to support until i can build the team to support this.  

[linguistpilot]

@crusadertsarHave you tried going with 4-3-3 as the starting formation? I am playing as Barca, started with the diamond 3-4-3 you have been working on, but it was pretty erratic because so many teams play with wingers now (compared to the 80s/90s). So I tried a 4-3-3 that shifts to 3-4-3 in possession, with one of the back four moving into midfield to occupy the half-space (Sergi Roberto as an Inverted Wingback), freeing up a central midfielder (Pedri/Gavi/Coutinho as Mezzala) to move forward into the no. 10 slot, creating a diamond and at times overlapping the false nine (Aguero/Memphis). This has worked brilliantly, precisely the kind of play I expected from this kind of tactic. It's in keeping with what Cruyff did apparently, his 3-4-3 shifted like this to 4-3-3 in defense when appropriate.

Edited December 13, 2021 by linguistpilot

[endadc]

3 hours ago, linguistpilot said:

@crusadertsarHave you tried going with 4-3-3 as the starting formation? I am playing as Barca, started with the diamond 3-4-3 you have been working on, but it was pretty erratic because so many teams play with wingers now (compared to the 80s/90s). So I tried a 4-3-3 that shifts to 3-4-3 in possession, with one of the back four moving into midfield to occupy the half-space (Sergi Roberto as an Inverted Wingback), freeing up a central midfielder (Pedri/Gavi/Coutinho as Mezzala) to move forward into the no. 10 slot, creating a diamond and at times overlapping the false nine (Aguero/Memphis). This has worked brilliantly, precisely the kind of play I expected from this kind of tactic. It's in keeping with what Cruyff did apparently, his 3-4-3 shifted like this to 4-3-3 in defense when appropriate.

An alternative formation can help keep a good league position while you develop squad. Can you screenshot your tactic and instruction. 

[crusadertsar]

6 hours ago, linguistpilot said:

@crusadertsarHave you tried going with 4-3-3 as the starting formation? I am playing as Barca, started with the diamond 3-4-3 you have been working on, but it was pretty erratic because so many teams play with wingers now (compared to the 80s/90s). So I tried a 4-3-3 that shifts to 3-4-3 in possession, with one of the back four moving into midfield to occupy the half-space (Sergi Roberto as an Inverted Wingback), freeing up a central midfielder (Pedri/Gavi/Coutinho as Mezzala) to move forward into the no. 10 slot, creating a diamond and at times overlapping the false nine (Aguero/Memphis). This has worked brilliantly, precisely the kind of play I expected from this kind of tactic. It's in keeping with what Cruyff did apparently, his 3-4-3 shifted like this to 4-3-3 in defense when appropriate.

Interesting idea. I actually have a 4-4-2 that I use sometimes. But as I already mentioned in one comment above I much rather focus on 3-4-3 diamond and not play 4-3-3. I prefer focusing my energies on a unique formation that's not used by everyone. I am little tired of 4-3-3 because I used it so much in previous FMs when recreating Pep's overlaps. And I find that in attack it can get a little stale and predictable.

Edited December 13, 2021 by crusadertsar

[crusadertsar]

15 hours ago, gokalpcakir1 said:

I want to try your tactic. Can you leave the file attachment?

Unfortunately I haven't had access to my computer all weekend. But should be able to upload for you on here late tonight after work. 

@endadc Regarding a season update, for the same reason as above, I haven't played that much since posting my last update. Currently alternating between 3rd and 4th place in late October. So far won or drew more than lost. But that could change fast haha.

Edited December 13, 2021 by crusadertsar

[endadc]

10 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

 

@endadc Regarding a season update, for the same reason as above, I haven't played that much since posting my last update. Currently alternating between 3rd and 4th place in late October.

No worries at all

[linguistpilot]

20 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Interesting idea. I actually have a 4-4-2 that I use sometimes. But as I already mentioned in one comment above I much rather focus on 3-4-3 diamond and not play 4-3-3. I prefer focusing my energies on a unique formation that's not used by everyone. I am little tired of 4-3-3 because I used it so much in previous FMs when recreating Pep's overlaps. And I find that in attack it can get a little stale and predictable.

I hear you. Plus the new Wide CB role has really made the back three more interesting. Maybe FM23 will bring a "Narrow FB" role that would shift to create a back three in possession? Or maybe I'm dreaming.

Not for nothing, but seems like Xavi was reading this thread ahead of the Osasuna game on the weekend:

[endadc]

1 hour ago, linguistpilot said:

 

Not for nothing, but seems like Xavi was reading this thread ahead of the Osasuna game on the weekend:

We really need those three points. Xavi will do well. 

[Bradz FM]

I'm a huge fan of Total Football philosophy and have tried to re-create the 2-4-3 diamond in many editions of FM. I'd been using it since the start of FM22 with a team from the Dutch 2nd division. When I got promoted it was hard to ascertain if the tactic  was effective or if it was just because my players were far inferior. I decided to try a Ralf Rangnick inspired save at United. After having huge success with what I done I decided to try merge some principles of the 2 ideologies and chose Athletic Club as the club to try it with.

I hadn't read this thread in a few weeks so amazed to see the 3-4-3 being implemented at Athletic. 

I'm looking to be a little more direct in possession at times but also want to be able to switch back to a more pure Cruyff 3-4-3 when we want to keep the ball.

The main issues I've had with my shape in my other save was the DM seems to just nullify the central CB as a passing option at times and almost seems like a waste having them both on the field. I have a few ideas that I will try and post when I progress some games.

[crusadertsar]

23 minutes ago, Trevomac said:

I'm a huge fan of Total Football philosophy and have tried to re-create the 2-4-3 diamond in many editions of FM. I'd been using it since the start of FM22 with a team from the Dutch 2nd division. When I got promoted it was hard to ascertain if the tactic  was effective or if it was just because my players were far inferior. I decided to try a Ralf Rangnick inspired save at United. After having huge success with what I done I decided to try merge some principles of the 2 ideologies and chose Athletic Club as the club to try it with.

I hadn't read this thread in a few weeks so amazed to see the 3-4-3 being implemented at Athletic. 

I'm looking to be a little more direct in possession at times but also want to be able to switch back to a more pure Cruyff 3-4-3 when we want to keep the ball.

The main issues I've had with my shape in my other save was the DM seems to just nullify the central CB as a passing option at times and almost seems like a waste having them both on the field. I have a few ideas that I will try and post when I progress some games.

Great! Looking forward to shooting some ideas around friend 

[Collectivism]

Would absolutely love the download for this; looks fantastic.

[crusadertsar]

2 hours ago, Collectivism said:

Would absolutely love the download for this; looks fantastic.

Here you go! Enjoy. The latest version of my "Christmas Tree" 3-4-3 Diamond

Also @gokalpcakir1

Total 3-4-3 Diamond.fmf

[Bradz FM]

So I played the first 14 league games last night. Given my gripes  over the DM and CB kinda offering the same passing option at times I moved the DM into a striker role in a couple of pre-season games to give more of a 3-4-1-2  along with trying something similar to Crusadartsar's 3-4-2-1. I was tweaking alot during games in pre-seaon.

I ended up starting the season using the 3-4-2-1 but changing to something closer to the 3-4-3 i was using in my other save and was amazed with how well better defenders aided the system. In my other save, we kept getting caught out at the back post of crosses, probably down to bad aggression, bravery and anticipation in my defenders.

I started the game against Real Madrid with the 3-4-1-2 and played very fast, direct football but reverted to the 3-4-3 with very low tempo and time wasting to try see the game out. They managed to pull 1 goal back but we got a 3rd to secure the victory.

Below is my starting setup. The green highlighted positions are the roles that I'm at least 75% happy with. The others get tweaked a fair bit. Mostly it involves moving the half-back up the the midfield strata with him becoming a DLP(D). The CM(A) is sometimes changed to a mezzala (A). I can't decide which striker role is best. Unfortunately I lost Inaki to a broken ankle after the Real Madrid match so it limits my options. I've also moved my shadow striker slightly to the left at time when using a DLF(s) as I find the DLF gets the ball more frequently when the SS isn't directly behind him.

Another thing I have done to try see out games is moved the 2 wide midfielders back to wing-backs. This also lets me use some of our full-backs to give them game time.

 

This is the pass map for the Derby. I just can't get the SS and Striker involved enough.

[crusadertsar]

58 minutes ago, Trevomac said:

So I played the first 14 league games last night. Given my gripes  over the DM and CB kinda offering the same passing option at times I moved the DM into a striker role in a couple of pre-season games to give more of a 3-4-1-2  along with trying something similar to Crusadartsar's 3-4-2-1. I was tweaking alot during games in pre-seaon.

I ended up starting the season using the 3-4-2-1 but changing to something closer to the 3-4-3 i was using in my other save and was amazed with how well better defenders aided the system. In my other save, we kept getting caught out at the back post of crosses, probably down to bad aggression, bravery and anticipation in my defenders.

I started the game against Real Madrid with the 3-4-1-2 and played very fast, direct football but reverted to the 3-4-3 with very low tempo and time wasting to try see the game out. They managed to pull 1 goal back but we got a 3rd to secure the victory.

Below is my starting setup. The green highlighted positions are the roles that I'm at least 75% happy with. The others get tweaked a fair bit. Mostly it involves moving the half-back up the the midfield strata with him becoming a DLP(D). The CM(A) is sometimes changed to a mezzala (A). I can't decide which striker role is best. Unfortunately I lost Inaki to a broken ankle after the Real Madrid match so it limits my options. I've also moved my shadow striker slightly to the left at time when using a DLF(s) as I find the DLF gets the ball more frequently when the SS isn't directly behind him.

Another thing I have done to try see out games is moved the 2 wide midfielders back to wing-backs. This also lets me use some of our full-backs to give them game time.

 

This is the pass map for the Derby. I just can't get the SS and Striker involved enough.

Really nice analysis and reasoning! And results! Congrats on beating Real Madrid. Some good food for thought for my own tactic. 

I also started to move my DLP and BWM into midfield strata. In the last two games our possession and chance creation improved. Got a 2-0 victory over Alaves and 4-0 thrashing of Eiche. 

But major change has been changing the team mentality from Attacking to Balanced. Overall, I feel we play more solid game with less opposition players being able to get behind my high defensive line. And our attacking intent and chance creation don't seem to suffer that much.

[Bradz FM]

3 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Really nice analysis and reasoning! And results! Congrats on beating Real Madrid. Some good food for thought for my own tactic. 

I also started to move my DLP and BWM into midfield strata. In the last two games our possession and chance creation improved. Got a 2-0 victory over Alaves and 4-0 thrashing of Eiche. 

But major change has been changing the team mentality from Attacking to Balanced. Overall, I feel we play more solid game with less opposition players being able to get behind my high defensive line. And our attacking intent and chance creation don't seem to suffer that much.

Excellent stuff. Great results. I am kinda wondering is the only way to make the system work by constantly tinkering. All my games have been tight scorelines. Any dropped points have been away from home so maybe I will drop the mentality for these games.

I've just had a breath-taking display against Barcelona. It was one of those game where we missed a penalty and although we dominated, I felt we were destined to lose. They went ahead so I changed both wide midfielders to inverted wingers and changed the roaming playmaker to an advanced playmaker. I increased the width and upped the tempo and passing directness. We turned the game around before I dropped to positive mentality and slowed things down.

 

They were playing Minguea and RB so I set up my OI's to tight mark everyone except Mingueza. I didn't see it doing anything amazing during the game but after a quick analysis, I pin pointed 3 times where we tackled him to win the ball or pressured him into a pass to a tighly marked player who instantly lost possession

 

Another interesting note is that the B team and under 19 team are perfoming well using the default tactic

[crusadertsar]

9 minutes ago, Trevomac said:

Excellent stuff. Great results. I am kinda wondering is the only way to make the system work by constantly tinkering. All my games have been tight scorelines. Any dropped points have been away from home so maybe I will drop the mentality for these games.

I've just had a breath-taking display against Barcelona. It was one of those game where we missed a penalty and although we dominated, I felt we were destined to lose. They went ahead so I changed both wide midfielders to inverted wingers and changed the roaming playmaker to an advanced playmaker. I increased the width and upped the tempo and passing directness. We turned the game around before I dropped to positive mentality and slowed things down.

 

They were playing Minguea and RB so I set up my OI's to tight mark everyone except Mingueza. I didn't see it doing anything amazing during the game but after a quick analysis, I pin pointed 3 times where we tackled him to win the ball or pressured him into a pass to a tighly marked player who instantly lost possession

 

Another interesting note is that the B team and under 19 team are perfoming well using the default tactic

Great work in the comeback! I always feel like those are the most satisfying wins. When you come back from a goal deficit.

In my experience seeing  positive performance from your B team and youth team is a good sign that the tactic is solid. 

 

[Bradz FM]

24 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Great work in the comeback! I always feel like those are the most satisfying wins. When you come back from a goal deficit.

In my experience seeing  positive performance from your B team and youth team is a good sign that the tactic is solid. 

 

Cheers. I know the C team is in an unplayable league but I can't see an option to make them use the tactic, although it probably doesn't really matter anyway.