Getting the best from my Libero

[Marabak]

Hey guys

Bit of background. I've only just got FM19, really behind the times now. I started a game as Arsenal, and as I wanted to play 2 up front but still retain a 3 man midfield, I've settled on a 32212 formation (see below). This necessitated some recruitment in defence, but I managed to nab De Ligt for £31m and Cahill for (relative) pennies. De Ligt seemed like a perfect Ball-Playing CB, but I thought it was a perfect time to experiment with a new role, the Libero

My logic behind my formation (see attached):

• I wanted to fit my best three attacking players in (Lac, Auba and Ozil). Ozil moves between a Treq or a AP(s) depending on the opposition (weaker/teams with a DM = former, stronger/teams I want to pressure their DM = latter)
• A back three, incorporating a Libero(S) as a new role I've never really used before. He's on Support as I don't want to abandon his fellow CBs too much
• WBs to provide some width, with Bellerin a more natural attacking option on CWB and Monreal a little more conservative on WB(S)
• This leaves a pair of CM. I've gone for a BWM on the CWB side to help cover the CWB bombing forward. A BBM on the other side.

Now, the obvious change is to make the BBM a DLP(D) or something similar, but I once read somewhere that it wasn't a great idea to have ball attracting CMs in front of the Libero and instead to have players as passing options from the Libero. Definitely don't want anyone in the DM strata at the very least.

 

Logic behing my style:

• High defensive line and low block to congest the middle, where my best players are. No point engaging too high as I don't have any pressure on the opposite FBs and I want my Libero to be close to the midfield, so I pushed the line higher
• Play out from the back, distribute to CBs and through the middle, where my best players are and to encourage using the Libero
• Regroup but counter when getting possession. See point one.
• Defend wider and stay on feet, as I have 5 defenders at times, so I don't have as much space in the backline and I can get my WBs to press the opposition wingers instead of tucking in next to my CBs (see my issues later)

I move from cautious/standard/positive depending on the opposition and home/away

 

Things going well:

• Auba is league top scorer with 7, with Laca on 3 (both just league, altogether it's 8 and 5)
• Torreira is one of the top tacklers in the league
• 6th in league for goals scored

 

Things I am having issue with:

• Firstly, I'm not getting great results. (10th in the league after 8 games, For 15/Against 14)
• Conceding quite a lot, with a lot of goals coming from outside the box with my players sitting in the box. I'm not really being hit on the counter or letting shots get away within the box, but I would expect my keeper to have saved more of the shots from outside the area (a low Expected Goals area)
• My WBs still drop into to a tight back 5, giving the opposition wingers loads of room
• My Libero doesn't seem to be doing anything that I wouldn't just expect a standard ball-playing CB to be doing. He rarely steps out of the back line and has attempted not many more passes than his CB compadres (31/90mins c.f. 28 and 29 for Cahill and Socratis) -albeit more of them are successful. Similar tackles as well.
• My WB see an awful lot of the ball. They do seem to be in space quite a lot admittedly, but I was expecting to funnel the ball more through the middle and my team isn't really set up for crossing. My top two assisters are Bellerin (3) and Monreal (2)
• Ozil is playing relatively poor, no assists and generally looks disinterested or other poor body language in games (albeit has three goals)

 

Anyone got any pointers or major flaws in my tactic? Anything too contradictory? How can I get my Libero to be more of a playmaker and actually get involved in the game?

 

(Just to note, I'm off to Download Festival early tomorrow morning, so apologies if I don't reply until I get back on Monday but I thought I'd get my thoughts down on paper whilst they are in my head)

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, Marabak said:

I move from cautious/standard/positive depending on the opposition and home/away

When you change the mentality, do you also change (adjust) any other tactical settings (instructions, roles, duties) or not?

[zlatanera]

Just my opinion but you’d be better off swapping out de Ligt for an attacking midfielder or someone else who has much better dribbling, then training Brings Ball Out Of Defence if you want to see them bringing the ball out. 

Also Ozil as a Trequartista is going to draw the ball away from him.

This one I’m less certain of - I think the  narrowness of the formation congests the middle leading to space out wide hence your wing backs being leading assist providers

[summatsupeer]

I think there's quite a few things that dont make sense in the same tactic.

Firstly on the defensive side your asking them to Regroup but realistically only have 7 player behind the ball, the front 3 will tend to be high.  Your also giving up the flanks due to the formation, if was a 3 CM there would be more help from the outside CM, but with an AM the 2 CM have a lot of work on there hands, especially if ozil doesn't drop to help in the middle.  I think this is what is exposing your defence and leaving lack of cover in front of them.  Also making line of engagement deeper does not make forwards defend deeper, if you move the line behind them then they dont really have to press unless they feel like it. This can make "compressing" pressing plans risky, too high a line with no pressure and you can get beat over the top.

Attack wise, you one dimensional up front with two attack duties, there's a lack of movement with both playing on the shoulder.  Then youve added exploit middle, so even more attacking and less variety.  Unless opponents are defending high there won't really be a direct target for a Lib, so he only option will be the flanks.  Especially as your arsenal so most teams in the league will be defensive against you and likely keeping 5+ outfielders back at all times.

Basically you've taken quite an attacking formation and tried to turn it into a counter attack system.

I would have two systems for arsenal.  541 for when need more help on flanks that can be used against big clubs with more counter attacks or 532 if you have the CMs but lack the wide forwards. Then this 532 AM but with some role and instruction changes to make it more possession orientated and add variety with Laca as a CF-S type.

Edited June 13, 2019 by summatsupeer

[craigd84]

On 13/06/2019 at 09:35, summatsupeer said:

I think there's quite a few things that dont make sense in the same tactic.

Firstly on the defensive side your asking them to Regroup but realistically only have 7 player behind the ball, the front 3 will tend to be high.  Your also giving up the flanks due to the formation, if was a 3 CM there would be more help from the outside CM, but with an AM the 2 CM have a lot of work on there hands, especially if ozil doesn't drop to help in the middle.  I think this is what is exposing your defence and leaving lack of cover in front of them.  Also making line of engagement deeper does not make forwards defend deeper, if you move the line behind them then they dont really have to press unless they feel like it. This can make "compressing" pressing plans risky, too high a line with no pressure and you can get beat over the top.

Attack wise, you one dimensional up front with two attack duties, there's a lack of movement with both playing on the shoulder.  Then youve added exploit middle, so even more attacking and less variety.  Unless opponents are defending high there won't really be a direct target for a Lib, so he only option will be the flanks.  Especially as your arsenal so most teams in the league will be defensive against you and likely keeping 5+ outfielders back at all times.

Basically you've taken quite an attacking formation and tried to turn it into a counter attack system.

I would have two systems for arsenal.  541 for when need more help on flanks that can be used against big clubs with more counter attacks or 532 if you have the CMs but lack the wide forwards. Then this 532 AM but with some role and instruction changes to make it more possession orientated and add variety with Laca as a CF-S type.

The bit i have made bold is the thing i was going to suggest. I used that same attacking triangle on last years at Roma, My poacher would score upwards of 40 per season, my Treq easily 20 and around 20 assists. CF around 20 plus goals.

 

I would also consider making Guendozi a CM D or CM S with holds position. You need him to be more structured when defending closing down those long shots.

[Tom8983]

On 12/06/2019 at 21:25, Marabak said:

Conceding quite a lot, with a lot of goals coming from outside the box with my players sitting in the box.

You've got a big gap in front of your defence. I'd recommend changing one of your midfielders to a defensive duty with a role that can hold position, and/or having a CB on Stopper duty. It might be an idea to up your pressing urgency too, though you risk being drawn out of shape with that.

[Marabak]

Cheers for all of the replies everyone, apologies for the delay in getting back to you but I've been away at a music festival.

Since I posted, I have seen this link which has also given me a lot of food for thought (https://www.footballmanager.com/the-byline/how-utilise-libero-wednesday-wisdom)

 

I'm too shattered to load up my save tonight but hopefully I can have a look at it tomorrow.

[Marabak]

So to update, I've changed Lac to  a CF(S). I've shored up the midfield somewhat by making the Treq into a AP(S) almost permanently and changing the middle two into a BWM(D) and CM(S) (with PI to move into channels and get further forward when we have the ball). I've also trimmed back the TI to what you can see

I've played 5 games since, won all 5 with a aggregate 13:2, albeit they were poor European teams or midtable Prem. I did lose 2:1 to Southampton prior to that (which prompted this post) so that's still a good start.

 

Downsides?

My Lib is still a useless part of the setup, not really contributing to anything. Cahill is a ball magnet in the back three though and is acting quite well as a unofficial ball player

Few goals are coming from outside my front two. Hopefully they wont get injured.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Marabak said:

I have a few questions and suggestions for you, if you don't mind. First the questions...

1. Why much higher DL? Why not just higher?

2. Why Cech as a SK on support when he obviously lacks the attributes needed for the role on this duty ?

3. Why Focus play through the middle?

4. Why don't you use the Counter TI in transition, especially given the type of players you have up front?

5. Why do you prefer Xhaka over Torreira?

Now the suggestions - not to follow them blindly, but just as little food for thought:

- In terms of roles... while Mkhitaryan generally can play in an AP role, in this particular system - and especially taking the libero into account - I'd rather have him as an AM on attack. He could even play as a SS, though in that case Laca would be changed to either F9 or DLF on support, and Bellerin to WB on attack (instead of CWB on attack) to provide pure width on the right flank and deliver crosses into the opposition box, where there should be enough your players at the moment of delivery, ready to act. 

- With players of this quality, I believe Work ball into box would make a lot of sense as a team instruction. Be more expressive is another optional TI to consider.

- In case you decide to play Guendouzi and Torreira (instead of Xhaka), a combo of CMde (in MCR) and BWMsu (in MCL) would bring more defensive stability than the one you currently use. Moreover, my personal preference would be CMde on the right and BBM (or even MEZsu) on the left.

However, if your current tactic produces the results you are satisfied with, then please ignore all the suggestions I offered above 

Edited June 23, 2019 by Experienced Defender

[Marabak]

23 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I have a few questions and suggestions for you, if you don't mind. First the questions...

1. Why much higher DL? Why not just higher?

2. Why Cech as a SK on support when he obviously lacks the attributes needed for the role on this duty ?

3. Why Focus play through the middle?

4. Why don't you use the Counter TI in transition, especially given the type of players you have up front?

5. Why do you prefer Xhaka over Torreira?

Now the suggestions - not to follow them blindly, but just as little food for thought:

- In terms of roles... while Mkhitaryan generally can play in an AP role, in this particular system - and especially taking the libero into account - I'd rather have him as an AM on attack. He could even play as a SS, though in that case Laca would be changed to either F9 or DLF on support, and Bellerin to WB on attack (instead of CWB on attack) to provide pure width on the right flank and deliver crosses into the opposition box, where there should be enough your players at the moment of delivery, ready to act. 

- With players of this quality, I believe Work ball into box would make a lot of sense as a team instruction. Be more expressive is another optional TI to consider.

- In case you decide to play Guendouzi and Torreira (instead of Xhaka), a combo of CMde (in MCR) and BWMsu (in MCL) would bring more defensive stability than the one you currently use. Moreover, my personal preference would be CMde on the right and BBM (or even MEZsu) on the left.

However, if your current tactic produces the results you are satisfied with, then please ignore all the suggestions I offered above 

I'll try to answer your questions, which might be logical in my head but may translate into something entirely different in game

1) I really want to push up and squeeze the opposition, having WBs starting from a much higher position means I get more attacking width (in my head at least). Admittedly, my outer CBs are typically my older, less speedy defenders so this might become an issue at some point. This leads into Q2.

2) Leno is my usual keeper, Cech was just rotated in for a dead rubber Europa game as I already qualified. I could have put him on normal GK duties but I didn't want to create a huge gap between my backline and the keeper in case of balls over the top

3) All my best players are in the centre of the park and I have little width up front. Weirdly, this actually creates a lot of space for my marauding WBs who are often unmarked and play switches out wide to them regularly. I was annoyed by this at first but I've grown to love it

4) Not really sure tbh, I just left it out to stop it being overly complicated.

5) It was a rotated squad in the screenshot, trying to give everyone a little game time. I could have changed the roles subtly but I felt Xhaka could perform well enough as the CM(S). My usual/strong CM pairing is Ramsey and Torreira. I lose Ramsey to Juve at the end of the season though, so things will need a subtle change then (depending on recruitment as well). I felt Guendouzi was better BWM than Xhaka but Xhaka was more visionary so played the more attacking option in this game.

 

With regards to your other comments, I had Work Ball Into Box for a while at the start of the season, but I found my players playing around the box to much instead of taking chances, without it I am noticing more crosses from deep into my front two (possibly confirmation bias) where a Bellerin cross to Auba is deadly.

[Experienced Defender]

2 minutes ago, Marabak said:

1) I really want to push up and squeeze the opposition, having WBs starting from a much higher position means I get more attacking width (in my head at least)

No, it doesn't work that way. The "more attacking width" you are talking about is defined by your WBs' roles, duties and mentality, not the position of the d-line. For example, if you play on positive mentality with a higher DL and have a WB on attack, he will behave in the same way in attack as if you played on a standard or even lower DL so long as his role, duty and mentality are unchanged.

 

6 minutes ago, Marabak said:

Leno is my usual keeper, Cech was just rotated in for a dead rubber Europa game as I already qualified. I could have put him on normal GK duties but I didn't want to create a huge gap between my backline and the keeper in case of balls over the top

Even Leno doesn't quite have attributes for a SK on support (attacking-wise), but is more than suitable for a SK on defend. However, if you still want to have a SK on support, then Leno definitely makes more sense than Cech  

 

11 minutes ago, Marabak said:

I felt Guendouzi was better BWM than Xhaka

I absolutely agree that Guendouzi (as well as Torreira) is a lot better choice for a BWM than Xhaka. Xhaka is more of a DLP. But given that you have a libero, I would recommend against using a DLP in your system (unless you decide to remove the libero).

 

15 minutes ago, Marabak said:

With regards to your other comments, I had Work Ball Into Box for a while at the start of the season, but I found my players playing around the box to much instead of taking chances, without it I am noticing more crosses from deep into my front two (possibly confirmation bias) where a Bellerin cross to Auba is deadly

Your explanation makes sense. I usually use WBiB when managing top teams, and it works well for me, though I tend to offset it somewhat via Be more expressive, so my players have more freedom to think outside the box in the final third.

 

19 minutes ago, Marabak said:

All my best players are in the centre of the park and I have little width up front. Weirdly, this actually creates a lot of space for my marauding WBs who are often unmarked and play switches out wide to them regularly

This (naturally) happens because you are using a narrow formation, where only wide players are WBs, not because you focus play in the middle. I also use narrow formations in my Man Utd save - diamond narrow 442 and your 5212 - and the same happens with my WBs, even though I never use the Focus play through the middle TI. But anyway, if you are pleased with the way your tactic works, then keep it up 

[Warrenwwr]

Seeing the libero in action in this version has been a joy. But it requires so much set up and sometimes the central defence is left vulnerable.

It's not as solid as the attacking inverted wing back. Someone once said that the modern libero is the attacking inverted wing back. Just another way to get those dangerous runs from deep (especially from the DRL position)

I retrain talented midfielders into either the libero or inverted wingback and they can get 10+ goals per season with runs from deep. 

[Nick_CB]

Em 24/06/2019 em 18:52, Experienced Defender disse:

I absolutely agree that Guendouzi (as well as Torreira) is a lot better choice for a BWM than Xhaka. Xhaka is more of a DLP. But given that you have a libero, I would recommend against using a DLP in your system (unless you decide to remove the libero).

Could you explain that to me? Does using a DLP hinder the Libero's performance?

[Experienced Defender]

13 minutes ago, Nick_CB said:

Could you explain that to me? Does using a DLP hinder the Libero's performance?

A playmaker in front of the libero makes the latter less effective from an attacking perspective. If you use a libero, then you use him precisely because you want him to act as a quasi-playmaker. So why would you want to diminish his influence by having another PM in your midfield. 

[Experienced Defender]

@Nick_CB Sorry mate, but you'll have to start your own thread if you want a discussion on your tactic, because this one is solely about the OP's tactic. That's why I had to remove your last comment.