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Completely unrealistic conversations?


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I've had this issue a couple of times this save, where it seems the game doesn't acknowledge context when a player comes to you with an issue. Here's the latest example.

My backup goalkeeper has been with the club for a long time, used to be the best in the league but only good enough as a sub now. He comes to me and tells me he feels he's accomplished all he can here and wants to move on. I say I'll let him go, but need a replacement first. He says no, I want to go NOW. So it doesn't end on good terms. I don't want an unhappy player in my very cohesive squad so I offer to cancel his contract by mutual consent, as he's only got 6 months left, no one will buy him as he's 34 and worth £4.2k, and has clearly demanded that he wants to leave immediately. He comes back to me fuming that I'm trying to end his contract early when I know that he's getting to the end of his career and this is probably his last big contract. 

How does this make any sense? I now have a highly influential player angry at me which is upsetting some of the rest of the squad, when I'm doing what he asked in the first place. 

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31 minutes ago, Whalix said:

How does this make any sense?

Mutual termination means he gives up 50% of his remaining earnings. You said you'd transfer him, so that's what you need to do.

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There is a very big difference between selling a player and essentially sacking him. From the player's point of view, he has assured money for the duration of his contract with you, and clearly believes another club will come in and pay for him. That gets him likely a sign on bonus, and a new contract. Compare that with terminating the contract. He will earn 50% of his wages, and be without a club. It is not really close to the same thing.

It is hard to draw real world parallels with football. If I was working at a company and asked to move to a different branch (for a better job, closer to home, whatever reason) and they said no (or yes but give me some time) and then proceeded to offer me a contract termination, I would be rightly annoyed. Not exactly the same, but you can see where it comes from. 

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4 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

and clearly believes another club will come in and pay for him.

It is hard to draw real world parallels with football.

9 hours ago, warlock said:

You said you'd transfer him, so that's what you need to do.

Ah, I think this clears it up. I realise now that the game won't be able to be 100% realistic.

I'm managing in the League of Ireland, where it is an extreme rarity to see a club pay any kind of fee for a player. 99% of contracts are no longer than a year, and the players are either re-signed or move to another club for free at the end of the season.  Frustrating when you're one of the lower clubs, as your talent is routinely picked off for free by the couple of bigger clubs.  But what also happens when a player wants a move, he knows no one is going to offer a fee for him, so the contract is terminated mutually and off he goes.

So when he demanded a move immediately, I used my realistic League of Ireland logic: release from contract and let him go somewhere else. Not my FM logic: try to actually transfer him. Lesson learned! Thanks guys.

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12 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

There is a very big difference between selling a player and essentially sacking him. From the player's point of view, he has assured money for the duration of his contract with you, and clearly believes another club will come in and pay for him. That gets him likely a sign on bonus, and a new contract. Compare that with terminating the contract. He will earn 50% of his wages, and be without a club. It is not really close to the same thing.

It is hard to draw real world parallels with football. If I was working at a company and asked to move to a different branch (for a better job, closer to home, whatever reason) and they said no (or yes but give me some time) and then proceeded to offer me a contract termination, I would be rightly annoyed. Not exactly the same, but you can see where it comes from. 

If the player thinks another club will come in for him, then it's just wrong for him to reject the mutual termination. If it's terminated, then more clubs might come in for him because there's no transfer fee and more publicity, he can still get that new contract and possibly a bigger signing-on bonus with no transfer fee, AND he still gets 50% of the remaining wages from his old contract as well! The only reason the player should turn it down is if he thinks he's going to struggle to get a new contract elsewhere on comparable terms and the money is more important to him than playing time etc, in which case he probably shouldn't be asking to move in the first place but rather seeking to see out his contract without renewing.

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The other thing here, is if you've promised to transfer him, all you need to do is offer him out a couple of times. If no one bids, no one bids. Then they (usually) get back in their box and stop whining - or at the very least give you more time to sell.

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It's more the way the conversation plays out tbh. If a player has requested to leave, you offer him out without any takers and you then offer mutual termination, the response should be "I appreciate the offer, but I don't want to give up the extra money" rather than the dramatic tantrum. Offering mutual termination is giving the player another avenue to leave, not trying to screw them over which is how it seems to be taken.

Anyway I'll be going now, I'm sure you'll want me for something else soon.

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Without reading all the details of this specific example, I have to say that many conversations are not only unrealistic but also illogical.

Three examples among many common situations:

1. The board decides to waste money on something huge, but then denies you something minor due to "financial problems"

2. A player under-performed terribly and accepted your fine, but then rejects your claim that he is under-performing in a conversation next day.

3. You have money to spend, but the potential transfer player refuses to negotiate with you saying that you don't have money to offer (before even listening to your offer).

Thought not a top priority, SI developers could take a look on this, maybe polishing a bit the algorithms would help a lot here.... Cheers.

Edited by phd_angel
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Conversations are tricky...

About the OP's case, though, it makes sense that the player wasn't happy... Asking for transfer doesn't mean wanting to leave ASAP no matter the way. Mutual termination should be the last resort to get rid of an unhappy or unwanted and unsellable player.

 

BTW, I'm currently managing in North Korea, and I think I'd have the "if you don't drop this, you and your family will get transfered to a 'training camp'" option when players complain or ask for a raise... ;)

 

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On 20/05/2019 at 06:33, phd_angel said:

Without reading all the details of this specific example, I have to say that many conversations are not only unrealistic but also illogical.

Well AIs don't really exist; that's a rant I had in another thread, so let's leave it there. And FM's "AI" has no memory of past events, which allows the board to criticize you for letting a player leave... when they were the ones to accept the offer after ignoring your protests. That's one of the reasons why the Promises system  never plays in your favour: it doesn't really benefit you. It's a promise from you to someone else, not from someone else to you. I avoid it completely: I'd rather take the negative morale hit than tie my fate to something that elusive. You get criticized for things you never had a hand into. It's still easier to tell players to just shove it and crank your Level of Discipline sky high: that way, at least you'll know why they're pissed off! :lol:

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On 13/05/2019 at 00:52, Whalix said:

I've had this issue a couple of times this save, where it seems the game doesn't acknowledge context when a player comes to you with an issue. Here's the latest example.

My backup goalkeeper has been with the club for a long time, used to be the best in the league but only good enough as a sub now. He comes to me and tells me he feels he's accomplished all he can here and wants to move on. I say I'll let him go, but need a replacement first. He says no, I want to go NOW. So it doesn't end on good terms. I don't want an unhappy player in my very cohesive squad so I offer to cancel his contract by mutual consent, as he's only got 6 months left, no one will buy him as he's 34 and worth £4.2k, and has clearly demanded that he wants to leave immediately. He comes back to me fuming that I'm trying to end his contract early when I know that he's getting to the end of his career and this is probably his last big contract. 

How does this make any sense? I now have a highly influential player angry at me which is upsetting some of the rest of the squad, when I'm doing what he asked in the first place. 

It's not the worst example of dynamics in the game, but player interaction has been an issue since it was added to the game years ago. This year they are practically schizophrenic.

Player - "I'm too good for this club and need to leave"
Manager - "I understand, I'll set your transfer fee 1.5x your value and let you go when a bid comes, that's fair for what you're worth to us"
Player - "Nobody will pay that for me, be reasonable and sell me for half my value"
Manager - "If you're that good people will pay it"
Player - "I am that good, I'm just not worth much. I'm now insulted and storming out, but I'm a professional so won't say more. Except when I tell the press you're a ****."
Manager - .....
 

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