Making the game more challenging

[NabsKebabs]

I'm at a stage where I'm finding the game too easy. Tactically, I can take on the AI without any issues as the AI's systems have no complexity to them and the AI can be quite predictable in how it plays out. The opposition team reports that come in to the inbox before the game mean you can do your homework on your opponent in less than a minute. 

And squad building I think is the major exploit in FM. This is how most people have success in the game, they simply make better transfer decisions than the AI who has no idea what it's doing.

I actually really enjoy tactics and don't care much for squad building. I enjoy solving the puzzle of utilizing whatever players I have at my disposal in the best way possible. 

So, I think the way forward for me is to not bother with transfer decisions to make the game more of a challenge and instead assign them to the director of football. This is how most of the big clubs actually operate irl these days anyway.

I've got a few questions before I get started with this:

1. If I assign DOF to sign players, will he sign players recommended from my scouts? Ideally I'd like my scouts to have a big role. 

2. Can I assign some rough criteria ie we need a midfielder or we need a leader?

3. If my DOF's preferred formation is 442, will he try to sign players that are suited to a 442?

[XaW]

I posted this yesterday in another thread about something similar:

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Well, I play in a lot of challenges and I really like the youth-only challenges. Here you cannot buy or loan in any players what so ever while taking on a newly promoted team to the lowest league possible in your choice of country. You can only sign the players who come through the youth intake. I really like this, because it forces you to vary the tactics based on what types of players you get through. Playing a basic 4-4-2 and having succes? Here is a AMC that are miles better than what you have. What do you do? Change the tactic to fit in a potential world beater? Try to mould the player into your tactic? Will you be able to keep him when the biggest clubs come knocking? How will you cope with losing your best player without being able to sign a replacement? All those things are very fascinating to me and provide a very tough challenge that lasts for years. The goal is win the national league and the Champions League of course.

If you are bored or need a new challenge, this will liven up your FM life!

I think this also fits in with what you like in regards to more focus on tactics rather than squad building since we don't sign anyone, at all, ever!

So, come join us!

https://community.sigames.com/forum/29-challenges-sign-ups-experiments/

If you are going the DoF route, I can only say what I've seen on some youtube videos as I've never done so myself. It seems the DoF's are quite stupid in regards to transfer and will buy and sell without much knowing the squad at all. If he sold your only left back, he might not buy a new one... That would be too infuriating for me, I think.

[Hovis Dexter]

I used a DoF when I first started to play the game and found that he was like a kid in the candy store in that he never stopped buying players no matter how large the squad became. 

[herne79]

5 hours ago, NabsKebabs said:

2. Can I assign some rough criteria ie we need a midfielder or we need a leader?

3. If my DOF's preferred formation is 442, will he try to sign players that are suited to a 442

 

5 hours ago, NabsKebabs said:

And squad building I think is the major exploit in FM. This is how most people have success in the game, they simply make better transfer decisions than the AI who has no idea what it's doing.

Pretty much answered your own questions there .

Seriously though it might be a fun experiment.  There's a lot of hyperbole (no offence) about how crap the AI is but little substance.  Try it out.  Who knows, your DoF may actually turn out to be a squad building genius.

 

[Svenc]

Eventually you'll still get the better over AI, as tactically you can have a gigantic Edge over AI that doesn't exist in Football anywhere (arguably the AI also suffers from how defending in this series is simulated, which oft requires Managers to pet a few holes that don't exist in unified, intelligent, zonal defending in Football, which the AI cannot). Additionally, SI have stated numerous times that they are not coding their game/AI for the tactical commited. Depending on which, you are at a Point of no return now no matter how hard you try.

Assigning a DOF will likely just delay the success. It will become a bit of an exercise in Patience to get to the top. Overachieving you will immediately. If you're as commited as I think you are, this will even Show in simple numbers, like the measuarable Edge in shot to Goal conversions (AI averages typically 10%, and as low as 5%). I'm actually under the Impression that the majority likes Things to be that way, despite the criticism that the game "was too much About tactics". If all tactics could do was shifting the odds a few, perhaps not even the most deeply tactical commited would enjoy their favorite aspect as much. They'd invest a significant amount of time after all, for eventually some decisive, but still not quite as big of an Edge. In other words, they want return, and they want games that can be "beaten" -- and they want a clear feel of when they are doing just this. That's not a criticism, btw. It's actually Pretty natural.

[NabsKebabs]

1 hour ago, Hovis Dexter said:

I used a DoF when I first started to play the game and found that he was like a kid in the candy store in that he never stopped buying players no matter how large the squad became. 

I could use the option where I am in charge of finalizing the decision in order to prevent absurd decisions such as stockpiling 3 or 4 left backs for example. 

 

45 minutes ago, Svenc said:

Eventually you'll still get the better over AI, as tactically you can have a gigantic Edge over AI that doesn't exist in Football anywhere (arguably the AI also suffers from how defending in this series is simulated, which oft requires Managers to pet a few holes that don't exist in unified, intelligent, zonal defending in Football, which the AI cannot). Additionally, SI have stated numerous times that they are not coding their game/AI for the tactical commited. Depending on which, you are at a Point of no return now no matter how hard you try.

Assigning a DOF will likely just delay the success. It will become a bit of an exercise in Patience to get to the top. Overachieving you will immediately. If you're as commited as I think you are, this will even Show in simple numbers, like the measuarable Edge in shot to Goal conversions (AI averages typically 10%, and as low as 5%). I'm actually under the Impression that the majority likes Things to be that way, despite the criticism that the game "was too much About tactics". If all tactics could do was shifting the odds a few, perhaps not even the most deeply tactical commited would enjoy their favorite aspect as much. They'd invest a significant amount of time after all, for eventually some decisive, but still not quite as big of an Edge. In other words, they want return, and they want games that can be "beaten" -- and they want a clear feel of when they are doing just this. That's not a criticism, btw. It's actually Pretty natural.

Yeah I would no doubt still have a strong edge and as you say,  it is natural to want that edge as that's the fun - winning.

If I were to pick a top team like Arsenal, I think doing the DOF Challenge would only have a minor effect and I would still be very successful because of the strength of the current squad and my edge in tactics and training. However, if I were to pick Cardiff or Huddersfield, I'm not sure how long it would take to win big trophies like the PL or CL. I could probably the league in around 3-4 seasons if I was in charge of transfers but I genuinely have no idea how long it would take if I wasn't in charge of transfers at all. Maybe close to 10? I suppose it would just depend on how good/useless my DOF is. The major concern being I could end up getting very bored of the save if it's too static.

[Hovis Dexter]

3 minutes ago, NabsKebabs said:

I could use the option where I am in charge of finalizing the decision in order to prevent absurd decisions such as stockpiling 3 or 4 left backs for example.

I think that this would be essential.

[NabsKebabs]

So will my scouts actually have anything to do if I let the DOF take care of transfers?

[Novem9]

7 часов назад, Hovis Dexter сказал:

I used a DoF when I first started to play the game and found that he was like a kid in the candy store in that he never stopped buying players no matter how large the squad became. 

Did you use him in FM19? He is MUCH smarter now

[Hovis Dexter]

46 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

Did you use him in FM19? He is MUCH smarter now

No I've never tried with FM19. Do you recommend doing so?

[Novem9]

56 минут назад, Hovis Dexter сказал:

No I've never tried with FM19. Do you recommend doing so?

I need some advanced options and improves to give him requests, but he is better in general as I said. I play few seasons with him in journeyman. I started in low league where didnt want to waste time for analyse transfers etc and give him all. Well, pretty good. 

Also I checked him by Bayern Munich in Open Beta, was fine too. In FM18 it was terrible at all  

[Novem9]

1 час назад, Novem9 сказал:

I need some advanced options and improves to give him requests, but he is better in general as I said. I play few seasons with him in journeyman. I started in low league where didnt want to waste time for analyse transfers etc and give him all. Well, pretty good. 

Also I checked him by Bayern Munich in Open Beta, was fine too. In FM18 it was terrible at all  

P.S. DoF has one bug - he doesn't sign DoScience and Science staff as I can see. I reported about this to SI, so maybe they will fix this

Possible it was with my DoF only or he not found good DoScience in that moment, anyway I always sign Science guys manually. 

[zlatanera]

I found my DoF wouldn't sign any staff, even to bring us up to the minimum level of coaches recommended by the board, when I was managing Freiburg.

I thought he generally did a decent job on transfers and contracts though, and had a similarly positive experience with Loren at Real Sociedad on FM18.

[ajt]

I mainly use my DoF to negotiate contracts, but I also have him set to sign players for the youth team. He doesn't sign many players, but on the odd occasion he'll sign someone out of the blue who is actually pretty good.

That said I'm not sure I have the patience to let him be the sole arbiter of transfer policy 

[Svenc]

On ‎01‎/‎05‎/‎2019 at 11:42, NabsKebabs said:

If I were to pick a top team like Arsenal, I think doing the DOF Challenge would only have a minor effect and I would still be very successful because of the strength of the current squad and my edge in tactics and training. However, if I were to pick Cardiff or Huddersfield, I'm not sure how long it would take to win big trophies like the PL or CL. I could probably the league in around 3-4 seasons if I was in charge of transfers but I genuinely have no idea how long it would take if I wasn't in charge of transfers at all. Maybe close to 10? I suppose it would just depend on how good/useless my DOF is. The major concern being I could end up getting very bored of the save if it's too static.

You can try it. May depend on how your tactical Edge usually makes you overperform quite a bit. However, FM saves with any Kind of Edge mostly tend to be upward Affairs... to me Bottom to top saves oft fees more like a test in Patience and persistance thus, like an MMO Level grind where you are "rewarded" for sticking around. Maybe the game shouldn't just introduce a DOF -- but a tactical assistant with plenty Options proper. SI actually have the perfect template here in what they are simulating… even though ironically "traditional gaming press" would likely criticize this. The aforementioned simulation vs gaming perspective all over. I've actually seen this concern in a few German traditional gaming Magazine previews of FM 2019: "If this game lets you assign this many duties to your staff and perhaps still be successful -- what's the Point in playing?" 

Quote

In June 2003, Ajax gave him an offer as a manager, however, he decided to join Frank Rijkaard at FC Barcelona and became his assistant manager because Frank Rijkaard had the lack of experience as a top manager at that time. Thus, Frank Rijkaard believed that Ten Cate was able to compensate for his weak points as a manager. Rijkaard explained that "I was a motivator, Henk [ten Cate] was a strategist for the team". Indeed, Ten Cate was responsible for strategies and tactics of FC Barcelona during its training sessions. Together they managed Barça to a Champions League Trophy and two La Liga titles.

That assistant eventually would be AI, so inherently wouldn't have such a big Edge over his Peers. Unfortunately, the biggest edges you can have in the game, which is in the Micro Management of Matches, the AI will never compete in, even if SI tried. It's the same as on any game offering plenty Options to (Micro)tweak, from strategy to Action to anything: Eventually, the human will use them in far more creative and advanced ways… some of which "exploity" by nature. Hearts Of Iron Players conquering the world with Luxembourg, anyone? Indeed, the way I'd Code such an assistant was that (optinally) the actualy bigger Picture decisions would still be for the Player, er, Manager in charge to make. Like, we're one nill up, do we aim for the kill or preserve what we have? What Kind of Football do we want to broadly Play? Who is going to be our main goalscorer/s and how do we generally feed them? Etc.  Not only would this still optionally allow for plenty bad decisions. It may also Benefit all Players playing this, as a) AI in General would Need improving without artificially Holding it back so that everybody can compete and b) players's who've done vice versa, which is struggling with the Micro Details, would be lifted of that burden some.

It would also still be a "game" to beat Play.