Player can’t seem to consistently score penalties!

[James Greensmith]

My wonderkid striker has 15 for penalties and technique but it seems that he can’t consistently score penalties.

He’s taken 5 penalties so far in the season and had only scored 1 (the other 4 have all been saved). I’ve had him on penalty taking for a couple of months during training but he can’t seem to score many.

Is it just bad luck???

Thanks!

[CFuller]

What is his Composure attribute?

[JordanMilly]

36 minutes ago, CFuller said:

What is his Composure attribute?

And his Finishing attribute.

[FrazT]

The fact that he is a wonderkid may explain this as he may not be able to cope with the pressure.  Check his composure attribute, but it might be worth taking him off penalties for a while.

[James Greensmith]

Finishing and composure are both 13

[sporadicsmiles]

Composure and finishing are not that high. Going off my player who is Penalties 15, composure 16, finishing 14, and who rarely misses, these things could be really important. Maybe select a different player to take penalties and see if it makes a difference. 

[JordanMilly]

6 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Composure and finishing are not that high. Going off my player who is Penalties 15, composure 16, finishing 14, and who rarely misses, these things could be really important. Maybe select a different player to take penalties and see if it makes a difference. 

And spend some time training him on his finishing and composure, as that'll make him a better player in general.

[James Greensmith]

What’s best to put him on in training to be a better player in general? Finishing or final third??

[ajt]

i train my young strikers as complete forward attack and usually attacking movement

[Svenc]

At such sample sizes*, only time will tell. Making a judgement here is akin to somebody proposing marriage to the Girl he's just dated twice. Could go well, but could also misfire.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/bayer-04-leverkusen/elfmeterstatistik/verein/15/plus/0?reldata=%262016
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/bayer-04-leverkusen/elfmeterstatistik/verein/15/plus/0?reldata=%262015

 

Penalties in general, even by specialists, aren't anywhere near to a "certain Goal", or at least shouldn't be. On average, they aren't converted roughly 25-30% of the time -- by most specialists roughly 15-20% of the time. I am totally convinced (actually I tested this in Releases past) that even if you edit all Players in the db to have low Penalty, composure, finishing etc. Ratings, most of the penalties would simply go in. And there will be streaks of misses simply by Chance. In particular over the spell of a single Season, where Chance has far more of an Impact than over a couple ones in all Areas of the game.

FM Managers have a disadvantage here, as real Managers can check the ability of Players day-in day out. E.g. Training drills, etc. etc.  Then again, if that were in, it were likely another Edge over the game's AI, unless it is coded to use such drills intelligently and make "intelligent" conclusions off it as well. 

[HUNT3R]

Just FWIW Finishing isn't involved when it comes to taking a penalty. If there's a follow up, then it is. It's Penalty Taking and Composure that's very important. Then there are also hidden attributes as mentioned, but also his Body Language on the day.

[Svenc]

10 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Just FWIW Finishing isn't involved when it comes to taking a penalty. If there's a follow up, then it is. It's Penalty Taking and Composure that's very important. Then there are also hidden attributes as mentioned, but also his Body Language on the day.

Even so, assuming on average the average taker on his Level had a ~75% Chance of scoring. None of the modifiers, whether Attributes, or anything, is likely going to tune that down to like 0%, or 25% or even below 50%. In other words -- most of the Players will have eerily similar stats over time. Plus, over the sample size of just 20, er, 4 shots, even the worst possible taker in the game will frequently score four in sequence. This is juggling with probabilities some -- however, from my experience anyway, there has Always been a Limit. A better taker is some more likely to score, but not by comically big much. And just like in real Football, even he may Sport a bad Season-- or two. 

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/fc-barcelona/elfmeterstatistik/verein/131/plus/0?reldata=%262014
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/fc-barcelona/elfmeterstatistik/verein/131/plus/0?reldata=%262015

[Tiger666]

Kane has missed 4 penalties in a row for me. Pen 19, Composure 17. Considering his performances in real life, if he has low pressure in game, it needs changing.

[Svenc]

18 minutes ago, Tiger666 said:

Kane has missed 4 penalties in a row for me. Pen 19, Composure 17. Considering his performances in real life, if he has low pressure in game, it needs changing.

What if this wasn't pressure, what he had for dinner, -- but rather random Chance? May happen at any time for as Long as SI don't Code a Penalty to be a 100% Chance of going in (this Video Minute 25 onwards).  
 

 

[XaW]

My 17 year old goalkeeper is 3 for 3 this season and he ended with 6 out of 7 last season. And his penalty taking is 2...

You know, and this might shock some people, but small sample sizes can really skew results if you draw conclusions from it.

[Svenc]

23 minutes ago, XaW said:

You know, and this might shock some people, but small sample sizes can really skew results if you draw conclusions from it.

One of the prime reasons why bookies prominently place seemingly "short-term" Trends on their sites (recent scoring streaks, most recent WDL records) etc. too -- they know this can be all Nothing but Chance (and what THEY look at is something else completely).

Btw, you'll likely find he keeps on banging them in even in the longer term (with some "streaks" of misses in between). FM from my experience has never modeled Players not being able to hit a cow's arse consistently at low Attributes vs vice versa. There should be a difference longer term, say over the spread of 100 penalties, between him and a better rated Player. But it won't be the lower rated guy scoring below 50% of his penalties and the "world class" one scoring above 90% or anything near. Perhaps ~70% - ~85% or something like that. FM has Always exclusively simulated "Footballers", so they can all hit a ball eventually -- and the Penalty is that one Scenario where the keeper, any keeper for once has a huge disadvantage against the taker in General. (Would be an interesting Editor Experiment)...

[James Greensmith]

8 hours ago, ajt said:

i train my young strikers as complete forward attack and usually attacking movement

I’ll give this a go. Hopefully they’ll come back better players. Most of my team are wonderkids so I’m expecting them to reach their potential 

[Tiger666]

2 hours ago, Svenc said:

What if this wasn't pressure, what he had for dinner, -- but rather random Chance? May happen at any time for as Long as SI don't Code a Penalty to be a 100% Chance of going in (this Video Minute 25 onwards).  
 

 

Probably the lasagne he had for lunch

[Svenc]

13 minutes ago, Tiger666 said:

Probably the lasagne he had for lunch

Don't buy again, it's a trap.  

Btw, currently playing a fairly hardcore RPG, it were an awesome, albeit unrealistical Experiment, if in RPG style the game were to Display to hit rolls (including all the Adjustments made from Attributes, Body language, Motivation, what have you) when calculating a shot. I doubt you'd ever get a Penalty to near a 100% "to hit Chance", tho, as SI seem to be Looking at "Football numbers" (and Performances). Still.



Even the real world Kane has it in him to not score in a few -- however comparably unlikely it may be. However, we likely will never know. Unlike in-game, he isn't tested particularly often. The real Football world with the real Kane only exists once -- whereas the in-game Football world Restarts with each new save for hundreds of thousands of FM Players. One or two of them may experience even the completely unlikely. Who knows, Maybe even a Martin Palermo.  

[Tiger666]

<3 Pathfinder

[XaW]

3 hours ago, Svenc said:

One of the prime reasons why bookies prominently place seemingly "short-term" Trends on their sites (recent scoring streaks, most recent WDL records) etc. too -- they know this can be all Nothing but Chance (and what THEY look at is something else completely).

Btw, you'll likely find he keeps on banging them in even in the longer term (with some "streaks" of misses in between). FM from my experience has never modeled Players not being able to hit a cow's arse consistently at low Attributes vs vice versa. There should be a difference longer term, say over the spread of 100 penalties, between him and a better rated Player. But it won't be the lower rated guy scoring below 50% of his penalties and the "world class" one scoring above 90% or anything near. Perhaps ~70% - ~85% or something like that. FM has Always exclusively simulated "Footballers", so they can all hit a ball eventually -- and the Penalty is that one Scenario where the keeper, any keeper for once has a huge disadvantage against the taker in General. (Would be an interesting Editor Experiment)...

Exactly, it seems like some people think that a player with 1 in finishing wouldn't hit the earth if not for gravity. However, 1 is the minimum expected from a professional footballer. The same goes for the other stats, some seem to think that a balance of 1 means the player is likely to fall should a slight breeze flow through the stadium, never mind playing at the Britannia, the player wouldn't be able to stand up!

I'v been playing in @Jimbokav1971's challenge for goalkeeper goals, and no one in there have had issues with goalkeepers missing that many pens, as far as I have seen. Of course, there are the odd missing streak, but, and this is without checking anything at all, I think I've seen about a 80% scoring rate for my goalkeepers throughout my saves. And I've not seen much difference when I've had outfield players taking them.

[Jimbokav1971]

As @XaWsays, I've never had a problem withe getting a GK to score goals. That's over multiple long-term saves with multiple players in each save going back to FM14.

I've had a GK score a hat-trick of pens in a league game.

My 1st GK in my FM19 save scored 78 career goals. 
My 2nd GK in my FM19 save scored 70 career goals.
My 3rd GK in my FM19 save has scored 24 career goals at the age of 21.

That being said, my current GK has missed all 3 of his penalties taken in Ligue 1 this season. It could be that something has changed in an update this season, but equally it could be that it's just one of those things and he will go on a scoring streak again soon. 

I should add that my GK has a penalty attribute of 3, composure of 11 and 

Attributes seem largely irrelevant when it comes to deciding the outcome of penalties. 

[Jimbokav1971]

1 hour ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

As @XaWsays, I've never had a problem withe getting a GK to score goals. That's over multiple long-term saves with multiple players in each save going back to FM14.

I've had a GK score a hat-trick of pens in a league game.

My 1st GK in my FM19 save scored 78 career goals. 
My 2nd GK in my FM19 save scored 70 career goals.
My 3rd GK in my FM19 save has scored 24 career goals at the age of 21.

That being said, my current GK has missed all 3 of his penalties taken in Ligue 1 this season. It could be that something has changed in an update this season, but equally it could be that it's just one of those things and he will go on a scoring streak again soon. 

I should add that my GK has a penalty attribute of 3, composure of 11 and 

Attributes seem largely irrelevant when it comes to deciding the outcome of penalties. 

I hoped this would happen. 

[ajt]

5 hours ago, James Greensmith said:

I’ll give this a go. Hopefully they’ll come back better players. Most of my team are wonderkids so I’m expecting them to reach their potential 

i'm managing in switzerland too. since i've upgraded my facilities to 5 star and have great coaches i keep my young players playing in the under 18s/21s until at least age 19 (unless they are good enough for first team already). then i start rotating them into the squad and loan out the ones that didn't make it yet.

make sure you spam "praise > training & conduct" on all of them every few weeks if you aren't already. easy way to keep their morale as high as possible (easy to reach superb/exceptional). and it also seems to impact on them having you listed as favourite personnel too (i think).

oh and you should look into making a custom training schedule with less rest time if you didn't already, i found that the default schedules had way too much time spent resting. and set all youth players to double and see if they start complaining.

oh and to the goalkeepers.. don't forget the legendary chilvert 

[Svenc]

1 hour ago, Jimbokav1971 said:

 

Attributes seem largely irrelevant when it comes to deciding the outcome of penalties. 

They're also overrated when it Comes to consistently scoring Goals. This is and has Always been primarily About the chances, both in type as well as numbers, as that's far more important than the Player who has it. (Which is also some in line with real world Football analysis; there are difference between Forwards on each Level, but Clubs spend gazillions in attempts to go the few crucial extra percentages. Additionally, Ronaldo et all don't score this consistently because they would bury every other shot.

On Occasion their superior technique leads to an added "wonder Goal". However, Ronaldo et all score because they consistently have a bucket load of finishes (up to 7 per match average), mostly from good positions. Part of that is skill (off the ball, touches, etc), part of that is playing for Clubs who are Camping in the opposing half for almost all Season, part of that is superior assisting by superior Players.

Buying another Forward on this game has never, ever been a fix for consistently finishwing woes (if they exist rather than are "imagined"). It's primarily About the type of chances, which are primarily influenced by tactical Things -- on both Ends of the pitches. That said, there should still be a difference between "specialists" and "non-specialsts" in Terms of penalties Long-term. Tempted to go into the Editor for a few Tests...  

[Jimbokav1971]

2 minutes ago, Svenc said:

They're also overrated when it Comes to consistently scoring Goals. This is and has Always been primarily About the chances, both in type as well as numbers, as that's far more important than the Player who has it. (Which is also some in line with real world Football analysis; there are difference between Forwards on each Level, but Clubs spend gazillions in attempts to go the few crucial extra percentages. Additionally, Ronaldo et all don't score this consistently because they would bury every other shot.

On Occasion their superior technique leads to an added "wonder Goal". However, Ronaldo et all score because they consistently have a bucket load of finishes (up to 7 per match average), mostly from good positions. Part of that is skill (off the ball, touches, etc), part of that is playing for Clubs who are Camping in the opposing half for almost all Season, part of that is superior assisting by superior Players.

Buying another Forward on this game has never, ever been a fix for consistently finishwing woes (if they exist rather than are "imagined"). It's primarily About the type of chances, which are primarily influenced by tactical Things -- on both Ends of the pitches. That said, there should still be a difference between "specialists" and "non-specialsts" in Terms of penalties Long-term. Tempted to go into the Editor for a few Tests...  

The whole reason I started letting my GK take penalties back in FM14 was because someone was ranting that the "game was broken" and he couldn't get Messi to score penalties. I wish I had kept a note of who said it. 

Penalties are not right, but they are penalties so.......

[Jimbokav1971]

2 minutes ago, Svenc said:

They're also overrated when it Comes to consistently scoring Goals. This is and has Always been primarily About the chances, both in type as well as numbers, as that's far more important than the Player who has it. (Which is also some in line with real world Football analysis; there are difference between Forwards on each Level, but Clubs spend gazillions in attempts to go the few crucial extra percentages. Additionally, Ronaldo et all don't score this consistently because they would bury every other shot.

On Occasion their superior technique leads to an added "wonder Goal". However, Ronaldo et all score because they consistently have a bucket load of finishes (up to 7 per match average), mostly from good positions. Part of that is skill (off the ball, touches, etc), part of that is playing for Clubs who are Camping in the opposing half for almost all Season, part of that is superior assisting by superior Players.

Buying another Forward on this game has never, ever been a fix for consistently finishwing woes (if they exist rather than are "imagined"). It's primarily About the type of chances, which are primarily influenced by tactical Things -- on both Ends of the pitches. That said, there should still be a difference between "specialists" and "non-specialsts" in Terms of penalties Long-term. Tempted to go into the Editor for a few Tests...  

The whole reason I started letting my GK take penalties back in FM14 was because someone was ranting that the "game was broken" and he couldn't get Messi to score penalties. I wish I had kept a note of who said it. 

Penalties are not right, but they are penalties so.......

[James Greensmith]

On 21/04/2019 at 14:47, ajt said:

i'm managing in switzerland too. since i've upgraded my facilities to 5 star and have great coaches i keep my young players playing in the under 18s/21s until at least age 19 (unless they are good enough for first team already). then i start rotating them into the squad and loan out the ones that didn't make it yet.

make sure you spam "praise > training & conduct" on all of them every few weeks if you aren't already. easy way to keep their morale as high as possible (easy to reach superb/exceptional). and it also seems to impact on them having you listed as favourite personnel too (i think).

oh and you should look into making a custom training schedule with less rest time if you didn't already, i found that the default schedules had way too much time spent resting. and set all youth players to double and see if they start complaining.

oh and to the goalkeepers.. don't forget the legendary chilvert 

Does your u21 compete in a league? I have to constantly arrange friendlies as they don’t play much league action? Perhaps I’ll have to load up more Switzerland leagues?

 

Also, have you got a custom training set up? Or at least an idea of what you use? Thanks!

[ajt]

14 hours ago, James Greensmith said:

Does your u21 compete in a league? I have to constantly arrange friendlies as they don’t play much league action? Perhaps I’ll have to load up more Switzerland leagues?

 

Also, have you got a custom training set up? Or at least an idea of what you use? Thanks!

They don't, it's a bit rubbish isn't it haha. I just schedule friendlies against basel/young boys/zurich/grasshoppers. Like I said any player above 19 that isn't going to get game time with the first team is loaned out.

This is my training routine. I don't know if it's "optimal" but it seems to produce ok results. I use it on the main/u21/u18 squads every week.

A few of the youth I have developed so far: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6

I have 4 stars minimum on all youth coaching categories (my first team coaches are all 4 1/2) and each coach has a minimum of 15 working with youth. Would like to get more 4 1/2 star youth coaches but I can only offer 2.1k p/w wages. Coach calculator if you need one

 

[James Greensmith]

6 hours ago, ajt said:

They don't, it's a bit rubbish isn't it haha. I just schedule friendlies against basel/young boys/zurich/grasshoppers. Like I said any player above 19 that isn't going to get game time with the first team is loaned out.

This is my training routine. I don't know if it's "optimal" but it seems to produce ok results. I use it on the main/u21/u18 squads every week.

A few of the youth I have developed so far: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6

I have 4 stars minimum on all youth coaching categories (my first team coaches are all 4 1/2) and each coach has a minimum of 15 working with youth. Would like to get more 4 1/2 star youth coaches but I can only offer 2.1k p/w wages. Coach calculator if you need one

 

Thanks. I’m in my 5th season with young boys. I’ll give the training schedule a go as some of my better players get tired.

 

i want to try a develop my youth played more and get a better youth recruitment in which I’ve been upgrading both of them over the years