How do you decide what kind of playstyle your team can play?

[Jeroentjee]

Hello you tactical geniuses!

 

I have a bit of a "general" question. Not a "how to improve tactic X" or "how can palyer Y work best" but i think a more basic one. Every playthrough, guide and bookwork related to FM19 starts with "build a tactic that suits your players". Now i have a question. In the examples below, my squad in my thirds season at Leeds, how would you guys say i should let this team play? 

I have been a FM player for years and years, but in this year i am struggling a bit on what tactic or playstyle suits my team the best way. I got promoted in the first season, ended 7th in the premier league and now struggling for 7th/6th. I am having a great time, but i want make decisions a bit more based on knowledge, instead of (how i experience it now) on 50 percent luck, 20 percent guessing and 30 percent actual tactical knowledge. I want to improve that latest percentage to maybe 50 percent, in no way am i asking the people here to make me a tactical genius as well. I just want to see how someone more tactical gifted than me would analyze this squad.

 

Please ask if more screenshots are needed. Again i am not asking "hey build me a tactic!" but i really want to see how analyzing a squad works. Sure if i see the barca team i know they should play a tiki-taka style, when i see Dortmund or Liverpool i would think Gegenpress. But if someone asks me "why?" i wouldnt know the answer. A lot of determination in the squad? Good passing stats? Anyway, i am drifting off. If someone can give me an insight on how you analyze a squad like mine that would be great.

 

Ugh, im wondering off topic alot. I hope someone can help me out!

[Rashidi]

I am doing a piece for the forums, and its a fairly long piece, I have done bits and pieces and think that it will be only ready sometime next week. Generally football is about controlling space. There are 3 areas of the pitch managers look at both thirds and the middle of the pitch. Choosing which area of the pitch to control depends on the quality of the players at your disposal. A good side can probably play a game with counter pressing and go for higher possession by controlling the middle and the opponents third. Just like Man City.

Here you may need a certain kind of players they will need to be technically good enough to keep control of the ball in the final third. So these players will need good first touch, composure, balance decisions and off the ball. The players need to be able to move the ball around under pressure and keep the ball. So passing will also be vital. When i was managing my lower league side i didn't have that luxury, too often my team was below average and all i could afford to do was control  my own third.

When you control your own third you are applying certain principles of defending that can be replicated in FM now. I knew we could be compact and narrow. Defending with 4 at the back who would hold their position without being dragged away and depending on the players in front of them to do the main work. If attacks failed we would then depend on launching quick direct attacks to players charging into space. Sometimes I only had one TM up top to hold the ball up for one more player to catch up with him down the flanks.  We played a brutal defensive game where possession numbers were irrelevant, but we controlled our own area. We defended well from crosses, made long shots impossible and relied on fast breaks.

So what i recommend you do is study your own team.

Can they defend from crosses, are your central defenders good enough for this level of competition? Do they need to play with a DM in front of them? Do you have attacking options?  Sometimes we don't have any attacking options, then it becomes a matter of survival till we strengthen our side to give us more options. The first task should be to identify areas of the pitch you can control. I still have a few days before my topic goes out, but its aimed for players like you.

Analyse your team by doing this:

1. Go to team comparison. Compare your defenders jumping reach and positoning with the rest of the league, split the rest of the league into attackers and defenders. You will need to know if your defenders are fine from open play or from set pieces. If they compare well against attackers but poorly against defenders then you may want to consider carefully setting up your set pieces cos that will be vulnerable

2. Positioning, Concentration and Anticipation are good attributes your defenders will need. These affect how well they defend the space around them

3. Off the ball is an important attribute that influences how a team does when it comes to the use of space. Poor OTB on support players expected to get up the pitch to attack is usually an issue

These are some of the things you should start looking at.

[Cleon]

Quote

Every playthrough, guide and bookwork related to FM19 starts with "build a tactic that suits your players". Now i have a question. In the examples below, my squad in my thirds season at Leeds, how would you guys say i should let this team play? 

Everyone doesn't. In the tactical thread that I did recently, I showed 3 different ways of creating a tactic and none of them was about what suits your players.

A playstyle can be something you work towards, it doesn't have to be something you decide from the off. I think too many people get hung up on what a squad/isn't capable of at the start. You don't have to pay attention to it at all. You can set up a tactical style that doesn't perhaps suit the current set of players you have. It all comes down to you and what you want. If you don't understand tactical styles, to begin with, then you're not really going to be able to select one and understand why it works and what it entails. You need to experiment or start with the shape first. Then when you've sorted the shape out, have a think about what roles you need to use to get the best out of the system you've selected. And then the style will come naturally and then you have the option to perhaps change it or enhance it with the TI's available.

Controlling spaces etc will come later. But this isn't going to be helpful to you at all when you're struggling with the basic components. Stuff like controlling space/pressing traps and so on are complex and will just confuse you even further. 

Also, ignore anyone who says you can't play expressive/expansive football in lower leagues either. Or that you can't create any style of play you want. You're not limited with what you can do at those levels on FM at all. It's one of the biggest myths people have ever created on this forum.

[Rashidi]

If you want to analyse your squad, i think you'd be better off by splitting your side into 3 groups (Defenders), (Midfielders). (Attacking Mids and Forwards). At least you will start analysing them in terms of their positions on the pitch. I don't think anyone can tell you "how to play", but people can help you in analysing your team better. You have been playing for a few seasons so why don't you just share what you've been doing so far. Most of the work behind creating good tactics actually rests on fitting the right player into the system you want.  You are 6th in April with a promoted side, so you must have been doing something right :-)

I will share what i do when i want to analyse my own team. I actually break my side into these groups so that i can understand them more. I focus on defending, supporting and attacking. If in my tactical system i expect any play to support attack and defending they fall into that group.

This is the view i use for my defending group. I prioritise attributes from left to right so here i track these attributes to help me understand my team. This helps me see if they are suited to my style of playing.  If analysing your squad is something you want let me know, and i will help you through, it can be a landmine full of myths.

[Cleon]

38 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

If you want to analyse your squad, i think you'd be better off by splitting your side into 3 groups (Defenders), (Midfielders). (Attacking Mids and Forwards). At least you will start analysing them in terms of their positions on the pitch. I don't think anyone can tell you "how to play", but people can help you in analysing your team better. You have been playing for a few seasons so why don't you just share what you've been doing so far. Most of the work behind creating good tactics actually rests on fitting the right player into the system you want.  You are 6th in April with a promoted side, so you must have been doing something right :-)

I will share what i do when i want to analyse my own team. I actually break my side into these groups so that i can understand them more. I focus on defending, supporting and attacking. If in my tactical system i expect any play to support attack and defending they fall into that group.

This is the view i use for my defending group. I prioritise attributes from left to right so here i track these attributes to help me understand my team. This helps me see if they are suited to my style of playing.  If analysing your squad is something you want let me know, and i will help you through, it can be a landmine full of myths.

Breaking down into stages/groups/time zones etc can be applied to most things on FM I find, especially tactically and from an analytic standpoint. It's much easier breaking things down into smaller things to get a better understanding, especially if you are struggling with a certain aspect.

[Jeroentjee]

2 hours ago, Cleon said:

Everyone doesn't. In the tactical thread that I did recently, I showed 3 different ways of creating a tactic and none of them was about what suits your players.

A playstyle can be something you work towards, it doesn't have to be something you decide from the off. I think too many people get hung up on what a squad/isn't capable of at the start. You don't have to pay attention to it at all. You can set up a tactical style that doesn't perhaps suit the current set of players you have. It all comes down to you and what you want. If you don't understand tactical styles, to begin with, then you're not really going to be able to select one and understand why it works and what it entails. You need to experiment or start with the shape first. Then when you've sorted the shape out, have a think about what roles you need to use to get the best out of the system you've selected. And then the style will come naturally and then you have the option to perhaps change it or enhance it with the TI's available.

Controlling spaces etc will come later. But this isn't going to be helpful to you at all when you're struggling with the basic components. Stuff like controlling space/pressing traps and so on are complex and will just confuse you even further. 

Also, ignore anyone who says you can't play expressive/expansive football in lower leagues either. Or that you can't create any style of play you want. You're not limited with what you can do at those levels on FM at all. It's one of the biggest myths people have ever created on this forum.

Hey Thank you for answering! I have read your guide "quickly", i am going to read that more indept later on, as it looks like a great read. The thing is, that i am really talking about Analyzing a squad. Bustthenet made a good video on that, but i am still struggling a bit and i hope that, with an example like my Leeds squad, it will become much clearer, as i have trouble using information thats been giving to me and applying it on my own information. I always kinda end up with the same formation/tactic as someone has in their guide or video, and thats not something i want to know, i want to know why player X would do good on position Y and in what tactic he would be useable the most! As for the basic component struggling, i am not sure if i am struggling with most basic stuff, but some subjects are still hard for me to understand, thats why i want to further know about the analyzing my squad stuff. I think i have the most trouble in that section.

 

@Rashidi The things you listed about the defenders is understandable. Im basing my current carreer with Leeds on the MoneyBall principle, not that i am doing that great with it but doing that "challange" helped me alot with reading statistics and seeing where my team falls short. Example: when i started at the Premier League for the first time with Leeds, i went on and got to 15th place. But when i got to december, i decided my team had enough caps and statistics to see what went wrong. I noticed alot of fouls, mistakes, crossing attempts going thru the roof of the stadium etc. After changing some stuff in my tactics, buying players that had the statistics i needed or was missing in my current team for "cheap" i ended up 7th in the league with more goals and better play. Now i am at a point i want to further develop myself in the analyzing a team, and seeing "hmm this set of players may be capable of playing great tiki-taka or gegenpress style". 

 

@Rashidi If you could help me thru and analyze the squad and come up with certain gamestyle rules that would suit the players, and how you come up with what role could work with player X, and how other role(s) would make a good combination and such that would be amazing. If you can let me "see" how you would approach this squad and how you would fill in the spots on the field that would help me out ALOT. Can i provide you with anything to help you with that? I dont want to sound ungratefull and throw my save file on here and say "HAVE A LOOK!" but if that would make you answering my question easier for you please let me know and i will provide anything to make it a bit easier for you! Let me know!

 

 

[Rashidi]

Hmm i am only a big fan of statistics to help me decide whether I should buy a player, but when it comes to the game itself, I watch the game. Things like successful cross attempts are irrelevant to me, because the game counts, corners, freekicks..etc as crosses, so i am not going to worry about those numbers. If i were to go through your team and analyse it and then come up with a game style how does that actually help you? I can guide you and you can start analysing based on how you are playing. 

Why don't you pop your tactic up and then people can have a look and then it can be more of a learning experience for you? You need to look at your tactic first and then play it and observe how it is doing. Where are you losing the ball? When you attack when does it break down? "Moneyball" is about assembling the right players for your side. Ultimately the strategy of playing the game has to belong to you. So let's begin with your tactic first.

[Jeroentjee]

1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

Hmm i am only a big fan of statistics to help me decide whether I should buy a player, but when it comes to the game itself, I watch the game. Things like successful cross attempts are irrelevant to me, because the game counts, corners, freekicks..etc as crosses, so i am not going to worry about those numbers. If i were to go through your team and analyse it and then come up with a game style how does that actually help you? I can guide you and you can start analysing based on how you are playing. 

Why don't you pop your tactic up and then people can have a look and then it can be more of a learning experience for you? You need to look at your tactic first and then play it and observe how it is doing. Where are you losing the ball? When you attack when does it break down? "Moneyball" is about assembling the right players for your side. Ultimately the strategy of playing the game has to belong to you. So let's begin with your tactic first.

I kinda used a combination. I used it to see what player fits best or better than other players, i check what player dont perform well and compare them to other players who could do better etc. It makes the game for a bit more fun for me, as i can focus on other things than tactics, my weaker point i think. 

 

Now your question "how does that actually help you". Uploading the tactic and give the tactic to me wouldnt help me. I would copy paste it and try it thats all. But if you can explain how you see the tactic working out, why you put player X on position Y with a X-role in combination with others, that would help me BIG time. For example, say  i give you the Barca squad and i ask you to analyze that. You could probably say well Messi is a key player, your players have high stats for passing, OTB and first touch so maybe Tiki Taka would be a good option. Play a Deep Lying PM in ST to create space for IF(A) messi to come in and score. (this is just a example). I am wondering how someone would do that to my current squad and tell me why.

 

https://ufile.io/2q536b68 This is the Save

https://ufile.io/1yzv97pj This is my Tactic (same as on the screenshot).

 

Now my idea behind this:

For some reason i found that alot of wingers would completely destroy my wingbacks. Certain instances there (the opposition's wingers) average position in a game would be further up the pitch than my defenders during times where my opponement has the ball. So i am a bit more careful with them in this tactic and put one of them on defend duty, and one in support just to fill in the gap that the CM (A) might leave. Phillips was great in the DLP role, and altho its not his best position and role, he does have great games playing there. He is also there for cover. Xadas is originally a AMC, but i think a CM(A) have a bit more penetrating power in the final third, and with his longshots and Philips feeding him with passes he could be a danger. Hoff is a "Hole" player, he fills the gaps wherever needed, and he finishes the midfield trio. He will be behind Xadas, but in front of Philips, for the instances where Xadas isnt reachable for philips his passing. He can be the person to link those two up. Clarke is an amazing player for me. He is there to complete my right attacking side on the pitch, much more attacking than the more supporting left side. Morilla is a spanish wonderkid, normally playing at AMC, but because of his stats i like him to be somewhat of a playmaker on the wings. I dont know if the Advanced playmaker role on AML would be good in this tactic. His passing isnt Xavi like, so i think he is more dangerous when not completely focusing on playmaking, Philips already does that. Kouname is my DLF. He is there to create space for Clarke and Xadas, while also offering a somewhat compareable role as Hoff, a link up player. If Clarke isnt really in a great position, Philips or Morila can first pass towards Kouame to give Clarke the space he needs.

This is kinda how i am thinking while making tactics. I dont have the feeling that they come out when i play matches with is, Clarke for example has just 2 goals in 20 games... Not being natural as an IF, i cant really see him doing good as one. I had this tactic from around 22/12/2020 till 9/1/2021 and had 5 games with it, i drew 2, lost 2 and won 1 match against MK Dons in the FA cup. I drew at arsenal and West hame (both at Home) and lost 0-2 to Manchester United Away. The final game was hopelessly lost at Tottenham with 1-3. Now these may not be too bad of results, as the opponents where very high class clubs, but i didnt feel like i put my vision on the field correctly. This is what i want to learn here, and thats why i asked that question. How would someone more tacticly gifted than me Analyze my current team and how would he use these players and why.

 

Edit: i would understand that, me uploading this save and my tactic, it asks for people to give me tips on how to improve my tactic. That is not really my question. My question is how you guys pick your tactic and line up after viewing a squad for the first time, i gave these files pure for the practical example that i need to really understand what other people do to form their tactic and formation. Its more about the "why would tactic X be the best fit for team Y (y= my leeds in this case xD)", instead of "hey here is my team, gimme tactic/fix my tactic".

 

Edit 2: in my save, after the bad run of 5 games with just 1 win against MK Dons, i changed tactic and things got better, but it feels a bit more random and like i am lucky, with that guess of tactics. Thats kind of the problem, i feel like the tactics i come up with are working because i am lucky and guessing, instead of a calculated choice of players, roles and combinations.

[Rashidi]

When you change tactics, things don't randomly happen on the pitch there is a reason why they happen.

Looking at your tactic you want to draw teams in (lower line of engagement), you want to close them down hard when they enter the zone ( you haven't defined where you want this to happen but based on your line of engagement i would guess in your own half). 

Your current issue when you see statistics is that most of the goals conceded come from the right. I may be wrong, but looking at your system, thats what i would guess.

Now ask yourself how you wanted to play.

Did you want the DLP to do a lot of passes long and short? Did you want him to do a lot of passes into space to release the wide players? Check the match visually to confirm this was happening or check the analysis tab. look for passes completed, passes received, passes completed, interceptions,  tackles made, tackles unsuccessful. Look for tackles as a team then see where all tackles happened. This is the painful way of doing, personally i just check matches as i play, and verify once in a while, like once a season.

Don't do this unless you have played a few matches using the whole system you need to see it happening for one system. 

Without looking at any of your matches and just looking at the tactic......

Unless your defenders are very good, that DLP will be tackling a lot, which could affect his pass completion numbers...now check to see if he is completing a lot of passes. If he isn't this could be indicative of a poor defence. What do you do? Check the WB. Is he often out of position? Do a lot of chances come down the right? Then this may happen because the space needs to be covered by the DLP or the CD, if the WB is out and about.

You need to learn how to watch matches, and if you want the moneyball approach, then you need to look at statistics inside the game and relate them to the game and the tactical system. Moneyball isn't just tactics alone, the stats are drawn up,  then coaches and analysts look at the game itself and then determine whether a player is performing optimally or not. Sometimes you will find cases where your CD is getting low numbers( low headers and tackling), does that indicate he is a poor defender? No, not when the bulk of the defending was done by the players in front of him. In which case we need to look at interceptions. 

Your tactic has a very simple fix, but you will see it once you start connecting the dots and asking yourself why certain things are happening. I know its painful to hear someone say go find out, but i don't want to spoon-feed you cos you asked. And I have not downloaded your save either or your tactic, I just want to guide you to doing it yourself.

 

[Jeroentjee]

1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

When you change tactics, things don't randomly happen on the pitch there is a reason why they happen.

Looking at your tactic you want to draw teams in (lower line of engagement), you want to close them down hard when they enter the zone ( you haven't defined where you want this to happen but based on your line of engagement i would guess in your own half). 

Your current issue when you see statistics is that most of the goals conceded come from the right. I may be wrong, but looking at your system, thats what i would guess.

Now ask yourself how you wanted to play.

Did you want the DLP to do a lot of passes long and short? Did you want him to do a lot of passes into space to release the wide players? Check the match visually to confirm this was happening or check the analysis tab. look for passes completed, passes received, passes completed, interceptions,  tackles made, tackles unsuccessful. Look for tackles as a team then see where all tackles happened. This is the painful way of doing, personally i just check matches as i play, and verify once in a while, like once a season.

Don't do this unless you have played a few matches using the whole system you need to see it happening for one system. 

Without looking at any of your matches and just looking at the tactic......

Unless your defenders are very good, that DLP will be tackling a lot, which could affect his pass completion numbers...now check to see if he is completing a lot of passes. If he isn't this could be indicative of a poor defence. What do you do? Check the WB. Is he often out of position? Do a lot of chances come down the right? Then this may happen because the space needs to be covered by the DLP or the CD, if the WB is out and about.

You need to learn how to watch matches, and if you want the moneyball approach, then you need to look at statistics inside the game and relate them to the game and the tactical system. Moneyball isn't just tactics alone, the stats are drawn up,  then coaches and analysts look at the game itself and then determine whether a player is performing optimally or not. Sometimes you will find cases where your CD is getting low numbers( low headers and tackling), does that indicate he is a poor defender? No, not when the bulk of the defending was done by the players in front of him. In which case we need to look at interceptions. 

Your tactic has a very simple fix, but you will see it once you start connecting the dots and asking yourself why certain things are happening. I know its painful to hear someone say go find out, but i don't want to spoon-feed you cos you asked. And I have not downloaded your save either or your tactic, I just want to guide you to doing it yourself.

 

I understand what you are saying. As i said i am not uploading my tactic/save for people to give me advice on how to perfect the tactic or anything. I just want to see how someone else his process is when he sees a group of players and have to make a formation/tactic for that group of players. And than the big question for me is "Why?". I see team analyses during the "Gamechangers", but its still not clicking. Some people just see a group of players and talk immidiatly how the group of players should play based on strengths and weaknesses. I miss a bit of knowledge to do that, and i thought if i can look at how someone else analyses my squad, i would understand better. 

To react on the things you said:

 

I want to draw the opposing team a bit more, i do that because i want Clarke to make use of his pace, and give him a bit more space for doing that.

The goals/assist conceded are pretty spread out across the board. With no real statistical problem. Ofcourse this will get more clearer after playing more with the tactic. I mean 1 WB S and 1 FB D, we can see where there is space for the opposition. I try to do the analysis 4 times a season, after the first 10 games, at the transferwindow, and before the last 10 games, as i see my team is sometimes struggling when a season is almost over. The last time will be for transfers and selling players, seeing if they are really a value for my team, or just someone that costs 10 million, that does stuff, while i can get a statistically better player for 1 million. My fun is to see if that player can true overclass the 10 million players. This is not always, but i have a lot of players that improved their value 10-40 times, with minimal cost. I have 2-3 players that cost a bit more, but statisticly still undervalued and underused. They are all first team players with me now, and i can sell them with huge profits.

The DLP for me is someone i want to exploit the space on the wings and pass into space. Assist wise he is not doing good. Only 1 assist in 21 premier league games. His passing accuracy is 91 percent and tackles won 96 percent. If i look at how he performed against Feyenoord (3-0) i must say i am pleased. Not too much backwards, some nice longballs and the key passes have been a bit more longer range passes. (ofcourse, am i correct in saying that, or is there something i am missing)

 

As you said i am missing somethings to connect the dots and i am desperatley looking for an answer. I dont want to be spoon-fed with the solution, thats not what my question is about. But i really want to try everything to help me "see" the problems more, i thought to see someone else seeing my team with the attributes with it and bring me with them to analyze those attributes and come up with a fitting way of playing with these group of players would work... If you dont think it will, i understand, and i know that this topic can come off as a "hey make me a tactic!" but thats really not the case. I enjoy the MoneyBall Approach and its something im working on, but next to that, i want to work on how to see things in a team that would connect the team to a certain playstyle. And what you said in a previous post:  If analysing your squad is something you want let me know, and i will help you through, it can be a landmine full of myths.

I think this would be something that helps me, just to see if i see the right things. As i explained shortly above, that was how i see the team making an attack. Maybe you, with your tactical knowledge, see things that proofs my ideas wrong. If you can explain why that would be great. But again, i get what you are saying with spoon-feeding.

[Rashidi]

1 hour ago, Jeroentjee said:

Assist wise he is not doing good. Only 1 assist in 21 premier league games. His passing accuracy is 91 percent and tackles won 96 percent. If i look at how he performed against Feyenoord (3-0) i must say i am pleased.

I wouldn't be focused on assists in his case, i would be looking at his key passes then going into the games to see where those passes were played. Did players do something with the passes he delivered? Or did your attacks break down immediately after that. He will most likely find the player who creates the assist, so check to see if those players have good assists following the key pass he made.

[Jeroentjee]

2 hours ago, Rashidi said:

I wouldn't be focused on assists in his case, i would be looking at his key passes then going into the games to see where those passes were played. Did players do something with the passes he delivered? Or did your attacks break down immediately after that. He will most likely find the player who creates the assist, so check to see if those players have good assists following the key pass he made.

Assists arent really important because he is not in the position to give the killer pass right? That would be more clearly when he would play AMC.

Just a question. What do people have to do to get their save on Gamechangers? Its a show i watch alot and i get the thought behind the setups, but i miss 1 little "click" to really get it. The analysis before filling in the spots and checking what tactic would be good is the click i think i need. I understand there is like a huge list of saves that has been sent in, but just curious. To see one of my own teams getting analysed by someone else would help me.

[Rashidi]

49 minutes ago, Jeroentjee said:

Assists arent really important because he is not in the position to give the killer pass right? That would be more clearly when he would play AMC

Personally I don't care where the assists come from, when i play even my AMC is just expected to generate key passes, because i expect players in wider positions to be free to make assists. Depending on the system you play you can have any number of players generate assists. Its generally a show i do for the patrons of my channel. I get a lot of requests, sometimes i do non patron ones from the community when there is a lull, but i typically am flooded with those kind of requests, hence me doing it with patrons of the channel. Otherwise I won't be able to handle the volume of requests.