BWM

[Arsenal457]

I keep getting told this role is bad. Why is this? I’m trying to play a possession based game by the way.

[sporadicsmiles]

No role is bad, it depends on the context. A BWM can be excellent in the correct circumstances. One time it would be a bad choice would be when you are playing a 4231 and the midfield duo has both players roaming from their position, a BBM and BWM for example. Then it is bad because it will leave you exposed centrally. 

[Arsenal457]

1 hour ago, sporadicsmiles said:

No role is bad, it depends on the context. A BWM can be excellent in the correct circumstances. One time it would be a bad choice would be when you are playing a 4231 and the midfield duo has both players roaming from their position, a BBM and BWM for example. Then it is bad because it will leave you exposed centrally. 

That is exactly what I have been using. What would you suggest I change? My CAM is an AP.

[Puluzu]

1 hour ago, Arsenal457 said:

That is exactly what I have been using. What would you suggest I change? My CAM is an AP.

Everything always depends on the rest of the setup, but in most situations In my opinion a CM(d) or DLP(d) depending on what type of player you're using for that role. If it's a technically solid player with good passing go with DLP and if it's not go with CM(d).

[sporadicsmiles]

2 hours ago, Puluzu said:

Everything always depends on the rest of the setup, but in most situations In my opinion a CM(d) or DLP(d) depending on what type of player you're using for that role. If it's a technically solid player with good passing go with DLP and if it's not go with CM(d).

This is good advice.

You really should think about what he should be doing. In a 4231 the biggest weakness will be the space between defense and midfield, especially when you have just lost the ball and are in an attacking to defensive transition. You will want a player who is going to hold his position and so be able to provide cover in that area. So a DLP(D) would do that. A CM(D) the same (and you have more scope to change PIs here). There is no correct answer to be used all the time. It will depend on what players you have and what they are good at, as well as what other roles you have. The best thing to do is start with a CM(D) (just an example, you can start with whatever role you want). Decide what you want this player to do, and then watch him in a match. Focus on what he does. Is he doing what you want? If yes, great. If no, decide what he is doing that you do not want him to do. Then you can either try a different role (if you think that will help), or you can try to edit the player instructions to stop him (or make him) do particular things.

[gcoard]

As mentioned above, it's all about utilizing your team as a whole.  I've had success with:

              DLF - S / CF - S <----- depends on the player, may use a different role, just depends on the player, team overall, and system.  But this is generally the role I've been using here.
IF - S            AM- S         W -A

            DLP - D  BWM - S

WB- A BPD - D CD - D FB - S

                SK -  S

 

I know that my winger is going to really high up the pitch, so the BWM is behind him to sort of clean anything up that's played behind the winger.  But, knowing that the BWM is going to be out of position regularly, my right side fullback has a role (FB - S) that prevents him from being way high up the pitch.  I also use a DLP - D to ensure that we have cover in the middle of the pitch.  And, finally, my right side CD plays in a less risky role (CD instead of BPD).  But, you also need the right players to make this work.  For example, my DLP will have good positioning and above average marking as I need to make sure he is defensively sound.  If he's not, I can't have my other CM out of position (i.e. can't use a BWM) and/or can't let me left fullback get so far forward (i.e. can't use a WB - A).

 

I terms of possession, the BWM - S, when he get's the ball, should look to cycle it back to the playmaker (in this case the DLP, who, in all likelihood, will be slightly behind him, but the AM - S will hopefully not be too far up the pitch, providing another passing option).  You can definitely maintain possession with a BWM, but, again, it all depends on your system as a whole.

[Rashidi]

16 hours ago, Arsenal457 said:

I keep getting told this role is bad. Why is this? I’m trying to play a possession based game by the way.

Like the others have said very well, it depends on the other roles. You just need to understand what the role does by looking at its Player Instructions, there it has close down more hard coded, and tackle harder. This influences how he will behave. If you take each role in that tier and then apply a circle around them to see how far they would leave their position to go close down the BWM has the largest.  So he is likely to move away from the position he is in to go close down someone else. Understanding this helps you incorporate a BWM in your system,

Generally a BWM can work in any system even in a 4231, he just becomes an aggressive ball winner, now understanding that he will move away from a position will help you plan your roles and duties. In this case while he may move around a lot perhaps around him we want players who could cover the spaces in case he is out of position. I have used a BWM in a 4231, in fact I like using him as a support duty playing off another playmaker who may be in a deeper role. Behind him we could have 4 good players who have the mental attributes and positioning to know where to be when we are in a defensive transition.

People generally advise those unfamiliar with roles/duties and how to understand attributes to stay away from BWM in a 4231 situation because you need to understand all this first, and it can be challenging for someone new to tactics. You will find a lot of AI tactics using BWM in them.

[djsmiley]

On 18/04/2019 at 13:40, Rashidi said:

Like the others have said very well, it depends on the other roles. You just need to understand what the role does by looking at its Player Instructions, there it has close down more hard coded, and tackle harder. This influences how he will behave. If you take each role in that tier and then apply a circle around them to see how far they would leave their position to go close down the BWM has the largest.  So he is likely to move away from the position he is in to go close down someone else. Understanding this helps you incorporate a BWM in your system,

Generally a BWM can work in any system even in a 4231, he just becomes an aggressive ball winner, now understanding that he will move away from a position will help you plan your roles and duties. In this case while he may move around a lot perhaps around him we want players who could cover the spaces in case he is out of position. I have used a BWM in a 4231, in fact I like using him as a support duty playing off another playmaker who may be in a deeper role. Behind him we could have 4 good players who have the mental attributes and positioning to know where to be when we are in a defensive transition.

People generally advise those unfamiliar with roles/duties and how to understand attributes to stay away from BWM in a 4231 situation because you need to understand all this first, and it can be challenging for someone new to tactics. You will find a lot of AI tactics using BWM in them.

I could start this again a thousand times 'People generally advise those unfamiliar with roles/duties and how to understand attributes'

If all of can crucially understand attributes then eventually the game will become simple to understand.

Thanks a lot Rashidi 

[Rashidi]

13 minutes ago, djsmiley said:

I could start this again a thousand times 'People generally advise those unfamiliar with roles/duties and how to understand attributes'

If all of can crucially understand attributes then eventually the game will become simple to understand.

Thanks a lot Rashidi 

Yeah generally you will find this advice quite often, people will tell others to stay away from the BWM, when in reality all you need to do is understand what the role does. Its a dynamic role with a large sphere of influence. When using it one just needs to remember that in case transitions seem a bit wonky. They can be really good roles to use

[Arsenal457]

In what way is it misunderstood?

[Cleon]

13 minutes ago, Arsenal457 said:

In what way is it misunderstood?

On older versions of the game, he was a bit of a liability in certain formations and was far too aggressive with his closing down. He was a headless chicken at times and strayed too far away from his original position, he'd get dragged all over the midfield. This is why SI gave the role a rework last year and this year and now the issues that used to exist for the role prior, no longer do.

[Arsenal457]

2 minutes ago, Cleon said:

On older versions of the game, he was a bit of a liability in certain formations and was far too aggressive with his closing down. He was a headless chicken at times and strayed too far away from his original position, he'd get dragged all over the midfield. This is why SI gave the role a rework last year and this year and now the issues that used to exist for the role prior, no longer do.

So how should he be used in a tactic. In what situation would you want to use him?

[Cleon]

2 minutes ago, Arsenal457 said:

So how should he be used in a tactic. In what situation would you want to use him?

It depends really. But I like to use them when I want a bit of bite in the midfield or a player to disrupt the opposition's attacks.

[Arsenal457]

2 minutes ago, Cleon said:

It depends really. But I like to use them when I want a bit of bite in the midfield or a player to disrupt the opposition's attacks.

What do you mean by ‘bite’?

[Rashidi]

1 hour ago, Arsenal457 said:

What do you mean by ‘bite’?

Example:

I want to play a 4231 and i have a strong defence, i could opt for a DLP(S) BWM(S) pair. Now this could be a dangerous combination, but if my defence is secure it can also be very disruptive to the opposition as the BWM is actually on a support duty playing higher up the pitch. That's how i see bite, Cleon may see it differently, but the BWM can be a solid role in any set-up you just need to think of all the roles and duties around it and what you're trying to achieve.

 

[Cleon]

7 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

Example:

I want to play a 4231 and i have a strong defence, i could opt for a DLP(S) BWM(S) pair. Now this could be a dangerous combination, but if my defence is secure it can also be very disruptive to the opposition as the BWM is actually on a support duty playing higher up the pitch. That's how i see bite, Cleon may see it differently, but the BWM can be a solid role in any set-up you just need to think of all the roles and duties around it and what you're trying to achieve.

 

Exactly how I'd have put it

[phnompenhandy]

18 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Yeah generally you will find this advice quite often, people will tell others to stay away from the BWM, when in reality all you need to do is understand what the role does. Its a dynamic role with a large sphere of influence. When using it one just needs to remember that in case transitions seem a bit wonky. They can be really good roles to use

I now avoid using a BWM not because I don't understand roles, but because I do understand my players. I always manage lower league - currently level 14 amateurs. The players are, quite simply, rubbish. In particular any prospective BWM has high aggression but poor decisions and tacking attributes. He's guaranteed to be a liability and get at least a yellow card.

[Cleon]

2 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

I now avoid using a BWM not because I don't understand roles, but because I do understand my players. I always manage lower league - currently level 14 amateurs. The players are, quite simply, rubbish. In particular any prospective BWM has high aggression but poor decisions and tacking attributes. He's guaranteed to be a liability and get at least a yellow card.

Not true. I also play in tier 14 on a side save I have with Boscastle and I use one just fine. He's not been sent off or picked up any more bookings than anyone else. It's likely something you are doing/using that causes it. I see you posting often saying you can't use this or that at lower levels but you can. Player ability is only relevant/comparable to the league you are in, so you can find capable players at all levels for every single role.

[phnompenhandy]

47 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Not true. I also play in tier 14 on a side save I have with Boscastle and I use one just fine. He's not been sent off or picked up any more bookings than anyone else. It's likely something you are doing/using that causes it. I see you posting often saying you can't use this or that at lower levels but you can. Player ability is only relevant/comparable to the league you are in, so you can find capable players at all levels for every single role.

For sure a player's effectiveness is conditioned by the quality of opposition, but wouldn't you say that a player with high aggression but low attributes in other areas is going to commit a lot of fouls, however poor the other side is? It's what I find anyway, in save after save. I'd be interested to know what I need to do to get such a player cease picking up bookings.

[Cleon]

6 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

For sure a player's effectiveness is conditioned by the quality of opposition, but wouldn't you say that a player with high aggression but low attributes in other areas is going to commit a lot of fouls, however poor the other side is? It's what I find anyway, in save after save. I'd be interested to know what I need to do to get such a player cease picking up bookings.

Not every player in the lower leagues has high aggression. The way you're talking, you're making out its all that exists.

[Rashidi]

2 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

BWM has high aggression but poor decisions and tacking attributes.

Here you are confusing the attributes with the role.Any player with those attributes could be a liability if you want him to be sitting in front of defenders

[phnompenhandy]

Just now, Cleon said:

Not every player in the lower leagues has high aggression. The way you're talking, you're making out its all that exists.

Throughout FM19 I must have fired up 20 new saves for lower league management with added databases for various nations. In every single one the AI gives me next to zero midfielders - DMs or MCs. The few that I get or adapt all have a high aggression attribute. It's not been the case before, but it's my consistent experience with FM19.