442 & 4141 for 19.3. Man City 105 points, 100+ Goal Diff. Cardiff 8th.

[Mr U Rosler]

Greetings,

Now the final ME update is out I thought I’d wrap up this year’s tactics into one tidy thread with final versions of both the 4141 and 442 which I have been using this year.

19.3 seems favourable to the 442 with very little downside from playing without a holding midfielder (which is a shame), using a DM and the 4141 remains the more effective option only for relegation candidates as illustrated below.

‘Attacking’ mentality seems to yield superior results and performances for all teams at all levels. Cardiff attacking Home & Away, week in week out, should see them relegated yet even the 442 saw them finish comfortably mid-table. That’s a bit disappointing, I hope the lower mentalities become more relevant next year, with perhaps a Defensive approach yielding better results for weak teams.  

Anyway, onto the 442.

Here we see our two wide midfielders sitting narrow on attacking mentality, they interact heavily with our forwards who are encourage to operate fairly deep often running beyond our strikers for a shot or a reverse across the 6 yard box. Our Wing backs overlap, but we don’t force play into them via over lapping instructions, but allow it happen when they are in plenty of space and a pass to them is the best option. They influence play by pulling defenders out of the central areas which is where most of our attacks are focused.      

Our Central Midfielders are encouraged to join attacks which in theory should leave us exposed centrally but due to the limitations of the match engine it doesn’t as long as we have a fairly strong team.

Goalscoring is spread nicely across the front 6.

 

Behaviours across the team can be classified as follows.

 

Strikers – Creator, Goal Scorer, Disrupter

Wide Midfielders – Runner, Creator, Goal Scorer

Box to Box – Tackler, Passer, Marker

Wingbacks – Runner, Disrupter, Creator

Central Defenders – Marker, Tackler, Header

Half Back (in 4141) – Marker, Tackler, Passer

 

Whilst the above doesn’t relate directly to the match engine it helps me visualize how a tactic will play out and ensure duties are balanced.

 

Employ the 442 with a top team and you steamroll the opposition, Home and Away.

 

My City test saw us average 3.07 goals a game whilst conceding at 0.44. Something has to go terribly wrong for that to be overturned in a 1 off game. (it happened once).

 

Whilst I cannot recommend the 442 for the weakest of teams, Cardiff still stayed comfortably in the division, scored a good number of goals, but conceded too many.

 

However, using the 4141 for Cardiff saw a very solid 8^th place finish and a nice positive goal difference and only 10 league defeats, a strong improvement over the 442.

 

I would recommend the 442 for teams predicted to finish 12^th or above. The 4141 for teams 13^th and below. (Using Premier League as an example).

It becomes tricky to judge this in lower leagues, especially when you’ve been promoted. I’ve often won the league when predicted to finish bottom at 1000-1 odds.

My advice is to move to the 442 as soon as you can get away with it.

If in doubt, start the season with the 4141 and if you find you are challenging for top 6 move to the 442.

 

Patterns of Play (442)

I would say the play is ‘mixed’ with a 65/35% split between Central and Wide play. With 2 Strikers Counter Attacking is an option with approximately 25% of goals coming via this route.

You will see some high shot tallies, 30 or 40+ fairly often. Often 50% of these might be long shots for various reasons namely tendencies in the Match Engine, Direct Free kicks and our focus on central play.

Its all good, 20 long shots out of 40 still leaves 20 shots from inside the penalty area. Long shots themselves are effective, deflections can lead to goals and corners.

The basic premise is just to build up pressure, pepper the goal with shots, get lots of corners and attacking throw in’s and just pin opponents in their own penalty area.

   

 

Mixing and Matching

Whilst I tend not to do this much, situationally I will do so. Perhaps to break a poor run of form, if I’m 3 nil up at half time with the 4141 I might switch to the 442 to turn the screw, i might switch to the 4141 for a tricky away Champions League tie etc. You can use your judgement of course.

But generally, one formation or the other will be optimal for your team at a given time and I’d need a compelling reason to change from it.

 

Beyond that, have fun, feedback welcome!

 

My approach to training is here;

 

No OI’s

 

Left Back to take left corners and thrown ins    

Right Back to take right corners and thrown ins   

Rosler 442 19.3.fmf Rosler 451 19.3.fmf

[Mr U Rosler]

Key Player Attributes

 

False 9 – Off the ball, Technique, Flair, Finishing

 

Wide Midfielder – Dribbling, Passing, Off the Ball, Finishing

 

Box to Box – Passing, Work Rate, Tackling, Long Shots

 

Wingbacks – Work Rate, Stamina, Crossing, Tackling

 

Centre Backs – Jumping Reach, Acceleration, Marking, Tackling

 

Goal Keeper – Aerial Ability, Handling, One on One’s, Reflexes

 

Half Back (in 4141) – Marking, Tackling, Positioning, Passing

[Sinbad7104]

Been waiting for this. Just in time for my FC Girondins de Bordeaux save   Plan on using the 442 mainly and the 4141 for PSG/Monaco/Lyon and maybe Marseille away 

[trueblue.85]

Will give this a try when I start my new save later in the Swedish bottom league

[reerdo]

Perfect timing @Mr U Rosler Was just about to start a Sunderland save to get them back to the Premier League. Although as a stronger team in League One I might still go for the 4141 as my base to start games so we are solid out the gate every week

[Braumiller]

I enjoy following these threads.  @Mr U Rosler out of interest, did you see how Man City performed with your 4141 in comparison to the 442?

[shelboy]

Great. Many thanks Mr Rosler. Looking forward to trying with my Port Vale save which has been going great guns using your previous tactics. Would you recommend still using your SUS 19.2.2 for closing out games or does the 451 tactic do the trick instead?

[Mr U Rosler]

34 minutes ago, Braumiller said:

I enjoy following these threads.  @Mr U Rosler out of interest, did you see how Man City performed with your 4141 in comparison to the 442?

Yes, a lot worse.

Finished 2nd behind Liverpool.

Understandably scored considerably less goals, but also conceded more. Most likely a case of the best form of defence being attack, for top teams at least.

[Mr U Rosler]

37 minutes ago, shelboy said:

Great. Many thanks Mr Rosler. Looking forward to trying with my Port Vale save which has been going great guns using your previous tactics. Would you recommend still using your SUS 19.2.2 for closing out games or does the 451 tactic do the trick instead?

I don't recall doing a SUS tactic, must have been someone else's.

The 4141 should do the job, but unless you're visibly under pressure i'd leave it on the 442 if that's what you're running with. See above, best form of defence is attack!

 

Edited March 9, 2019 by Mr U Rosler

[shelboy]

Many thanks. Makes sense to me, Ah yes it was Optimal Primal who posted the SUS for v2.

[Tha Real behanger]

Do you train the players in the positions they are? So the striker as false 9 and the mc as a box to box?

[Mr U Rosler]

13 minutes ago, Tha Real behanger said:

Do you train the players in the positions they are? So the striker as false 9 and the mc as a box to box?

Generally yes, although I find advanced forward good for strikers 

 

[Tha Real behanger]

3 minutes ago, Mr U Rosler said:

Generally yes, although I find advanced forward good for strikers 

 

Yes thank you, I was looking through the schedules and now picked the one that train the most for the key attributes per position.

Do you prefer a left foot wide midfielder for the left side or is a right foot wide midfielder better?

 

[Hovis Dexter]

Off topic but an interesting screen shot in your first post. With some, mainly, wide players being unhappy, or supporting you or being against you. There's probably a whole soap opera going on with some players wanting to play more often. :)

[Mr U Rosler]

49 minutes ago, Tha Real behanger said:

Yes thank you, I was looking through the schedules and now picked the one that train the most for the key attributes per position.

Do you prefer a left foot wide midfielder for the left side or is a right foot wide midfielder better?

 

Prefer left on left, right on right. But not a big deal in this set up and being 'wrong footed' has its advantages. 

I'll always train the weaker foot on wide midfielders, should be able to get weaker foot to at least 'reasonable'. 

[Mr U Rosler]

42 minutes ago, Hovis Dexter said:

Off topic but an interesting screen shot in your first post. With some, mainly, wide players being unhappy, or supporting you or being against you. There's probably a whole soap opera going on with some players wanting to play more often.

Test seasons are done on 'holiday' mode with the AM in charge. 

Same Match Engine without the nuances of team talks, substitutions etc so performance is similar with the scope for improved results when you take charge properly. 

AM won't hand out new contracts or rotate much so at end of test half of squad is upset! 

[Hovis Dexter]

I see. Thank you. Wouldn't want those reactions in real life!

[Sinbad7104]

Plugged it in at the Nimes game, the plan was to just use the 442 and 4141 against the big teams. I was unhappy with the 2 draws though so decided start using the 442 at home and 4141 away and been happy with how things have turned out since.

I will still use the 4141 at home to the bigger teams obvs.  Got absolutely no money as it stands so its very much square pegs in round holes at the moment.

[Sinbad7104]

PSG who?  

[JJSaxton]

Best tactics I've used on any version of Football Manager!

Used the 4141 in the Championship with Leeds and won the title the first year. Then finished 4th in my first season back in the premiership.

The 442 was released and I switched to this due to the number of wonderkid strikers I had managed to purchase, haven't looked back since. Now in my 6th season and winning pretty much every competition entered.

Thank you for sharing these tactics!! 

[Sinbad7104]

So end of season 1.. We've done the double.. beaten PSG 3 times this season..Had the best defence in the league and 2nd best attack..All with a squad that don't really suit the tactic that great.

Some player stats for the season. 

 

Edited March 11, 2019 by Sinbad7104

[Sinbad7104]

Used a mixture of the two tactics as mentioned before in all the games except the highlighted ones. 

 

The board has given me £15mil to spend so hopefully with the right players I can turn some of them draws into wins!

 

Also been using the training to go with it with a slightly modified performance week.

 

Top top man Mr Rosler!

[Sinbad7104]

Just took over Newcastle in 2020 and will be using this, the finances are in tatters, due to fail FFP and the squad aint in great shape. 

My plan is to introduce a 'Fibra' DNA to the club. Hard working team that's solid at the back and hard to beat.

The plan is to use the 442 at home 4141 away again.

Hopefully that'll stop me getting bored for a couple of seasons.

 

 

For those who aint familiar with Fibra I recommend checking out 

 http://fmgrasshopper.com/fm17 

https://strikerless.com/2017/07/25/instilling-fighting-spirit-into-your-squad/

[Sinbad7104]

First season at Newcastle done, won't clog up the thread with more screenshots but a respectable 4th up from their 7th place last year. 

Slowly started with the squad rebuild tactic held out well couldn't buy a win against the big 6 though, think that was more down to bringing in a few players mid season etc

[Alexpuk2002]

Is this tactic still working on the latest match engine. Looks like the 442 at home and the 4141 away combo seemed to be working.

I am struggling to find a tactic that works since the update to 19.3.

[JJSaxton]

21 hours ago, Alexpuk2002 said:

Is this tactic still working on the latest match engine. Looks like the 442 at home and the 4141 away combo seemed to be working.

I am struggling to find a tactic that works since the update to 19.3.

Still working great for me. Started again with Leeds trying to bring through youngsters and had a lot of 17 year olds in the squad and still ran away with the title. Played predominantly 442 but switched to 4141 if I was in a bad patch of form. Worked a treat. 

[Meph]

The 442 seems to be very effective overall. I started a Man Utd career and didnt concede a goal until game 12 and even that came in a 6-1 win over Arsenal. Since then, 15 clean sheets in 31 games. If I was to nitpick, I'd say the strikers are the issue. It's very difficult to find strikers that can be overly effective as an F9, I did a search in fact specifically for F9's and the highest valued player on the search was 55k (so basically, a list of about 10 nobodies showed up!) Are there any recommendations for people who fit in the F9 role effectively? Rashford and Lukaku very hit and miss, brought in Aspas in the summer (Had never had him, thought I'd give him a go) flogged him in January without  a single goal to his name, albeit he rarely started though). I'd been hoping for a change to the good tactics on here where one was created with 2 men up front so it;s a shame I can't get the best out of the strikers (and yes, I've tried creating my own with no joy).

[Walrus]

Going to try and recreate these for FMT as can’t download/upload to iPad at the moment  (no laptop for iTunes).

Will report back as have loved these tactics for years. 

[Meph]

Won the quadruple with Man Utd first season +93 GD,(114 scored, 21 against) 34 wins, 2 draws, 2 defeats, 104 points.

[Monkfish2004]

The thing I'm still struggling with this year's game is this attacking mentality. Do people really leave it on 'attacking' when they are 1-0 up away from home and there are 85+ mins on the clock???

[Fribbe]

17 hours ago, Monkfish2004 said:

The thing I'm still struggling with this year's game is this attacking mentality. Do people really leave it on 'attacking' when they are 1-0 up away from home and there are 85+ mins on the clock???

No, but you should almost always go into a game with an attacking mentality

[dimartino]

Em 18/04/2019 em 22:08, Monkfish2004 disse:

The thing I'm still struggling with this year's game is this attacking mentality. Do people really leave it on 'attacking' when they are 1-0 up away from home and there are 85+ mins on the clock???

It's just my experience, and maybe bad luck, but it seems that whenever I change to counter or defensive to protect a narrow lead, or even a two goal lead, I tend to concede. Just a few days ago I was with a confortable 2-0 lead in a Gotenborg-Sirius (I'm Sirius), by minute 80 I went on defensive to hold the lead. Minute 85: 1-2, minute 94: 2-2. And it happens alot. Now I Just leave it on attacking, and it seems I tend to score more when they start to take more risks.

[Hovis Dexter]

When I'm looking to hold on to a lead I normally switch to balanced and change the two CWBs to support. Seems to work for me.

[Monkfish2004]

Thanks for sharing. Probably going to take some experimenting to find the right balance, but this aspect feels like a big difference to other FM versions where it seemed easier to close out a game

 

[Sinbad7104]

I plan on coming back to this once they fix the mac issues and I can play again! Been a solid tactic no matter who I've used it with. Taken over a team in Portugals second division and I just know this 4141 will give me a solid base to build a team around. 

[Walrus]

On 21/04/2019 at 04:48, Sinbad7104 said:

I plan on coming back to this once they fix the mac issues and I can play again! Been a solid tactic no matter who I've used it with. Taken over a team in Portugals second division and I just know this 4141 will give me a solid base to build a team around. 

Don’t think there are any more updates planned. 

[efrumttr]

This tactic is awesome. Just won League Two with Accrington Stanley using the 4141. 1000-1 preseason odds and the lowest wage budget in the league. 

My only issue is that my team picked up LOTS of cards - we ended up with 126 yellow cards and 7 reds. That's partially down to my team's low defensive attributes though.

Edited May 5, 2019 by efrumttr

[erik86]

Blimey! I tried the 4-4-2 with Reading and first league game I thump Derby 7-1! 

[Glassy]

There's no point using anything else but the 442 tactic. And I mean any other tactic on the FM forums, it's the best one by a mile. I've won everything with Spurs. In fact, it's so good it just get's too easy after 2-3 seasons with a good side. 

[MegaAlbin_88]

Hi! Do you train the players in the role the play? or do you use any other individual schedules per role?  like wide midfielders as wingers.

Gonna give this tactic a go

[Glassy]

I trained everyone to the roles I was playing them in. BBM, F9 etc etc. Even in the youth sides so they were ready when they came into the 1st team. 

[MegaAlbin_88]

6 hours ago, Glassy said:

I trained everyone to the roles I was playing them in. BBM, F9 etc etc. Even in the youth sides so they were ready when they came into the 1st team. 

thanx for the reply. will do as you say

[Glassy]

Another example of the ridiculousness of this tactic!

Season 1

Started with Dundee. Predicted to struggle. Sitting 2nd in the SPL Wigan approached me in a relegation fight. A Championship side interested already! I took the job (Still got manager of the year in the SPL). Finished 14th with Wigan. Joined them when they were 21st in the Championship. What a 1st season!

Season 2

Great start to the season. Sitting in 2nd when I get approached by Stoke. Weirdly they're sitting in 10th, but the manager has resigned. I take the job and finish 6th. Straight into the Europa in our first season. 

Season 3

Starts a bit all over the place due to buying & selling quite a few players, but about 3rd way through the season everything clicks. Massively!
- Lose in the semi-final of the Europa against Liverpool by 1 goal (We Knocked out Hertha, Dortmund and PSG!!!)
- Finish 4th in the league. CL in my first full season with Stoke.
- WIN the FA Cup! Thumping Chelsea in the final. 
- Manager of the year!

This tactic takes the ****! I'll have won the league with Stoke in the next 2-3 seasons! 

[Scruffer23]

Has anyone had any luck in the prem using the 442 ??

[Hovis Dexter]

1 hour ago, Scruffer23 said:

Has anyone had any luck in the prem using the 442 ??

Well the OP did with City!

[Glassy]

LOL!!!

Edited May 19, 2019 by Glassy

[Scruffer23]

19 hours ago, Glassy said:

LOL!!!

What’s your starting 11 bud and do you use roslers training schedules ??

[Glassy]

2 hours ago, Scruffer23 said:

What’s your starting 11 bud and do you use roslers training schedules ??

I'm at Barcelona now mate!  Offered the job after winning the league with Stoke!

I do full rotation though. So basically two teams. I have my first team which I use for key games. Away games, tought CL games, semi's etc. Then a 2nd fully rotated team which is a mix of youth players and old players close to retirement. I used it for League Cup (Up to semi-s), easy PL home games, easy FA Cup and Europa/CL games. 

Here's examples of my teams from the PL winning season though:

1st Team:

2nd Team:

Mitrovic, Ontiveros, Aarons are the key players. Morilla also superb. 

I leave the training to the Assistant Manager... I just control the individual training. 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Glassy

[Scruffer23]

Seem to be conceding a lot of late goals has anyone else had this problem if so how did you fix it 

[Glassy]

If I've got a 2 or more goal lead after the 70th minute I change to 'Cautious'. I also try not to do more than 1 sub at a time. 1 at 65, then 70 then 75. If I have a 2 goal lead or more at 85 I got to 'Defensive'. Just commons sense stuff really