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4-2-3-1 -- Possession


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Hey Guys I need you help on creating my bayern 4-2-3-1 tactic. I want to play a high pressing possession based style of football.

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So this is my Squad on Season 2. I have to say, that i tried out several things already like switching around attack dutys on the top 4, going for CD's instead of BPD's and WB's instead of CWB's. On game stats its looking pretty ok, most of the time i can achieve 55-65% possession and many shot from inside the box as you can see.

But it is just not successful, so i got sacked :-(

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so before starting another save i want to clear up a few things on my end.

  • what are pors and cons about offensive and defensive width?
  • is 4-3-2-1 even a good setup for what i want to achieve?
  • how to set up the "out of possession"

and whatever you think could help me 

thanks :-)

 

 

Edited by CARRERA
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First off, 4231 is a very top-heavy formation, so setting roles and duties up can be tricky. There is nobody in DM, only 2 players in CM and even 4 up front. So using both fullbacks in a CWB role is potentially very risky, even if they are on support duty (let alone attack). I personally would avoid playing a fullback in any role that is more attack-minded than FB on attack or WB on support (an IWB on attack can be an option sometimes, but you need to be very careful with it).

On the other hand, I like how you set up the 2 CMs :thup:

My general recommendation for a 4231 is no more than 2 attack duties among the front four. While you did set them up according to this "principle", I would say that you assigned attack duty to "wrong" roles. Simply put, a winger on attack tends to work better with the lone striker also on attack (my preferred roles are PFat and DLFat, but others can also work depending on various factors and types of the players). Another good combination is both winger and striker on support (PFsu, DLFsu or F9), and IF on attack (the AMC in this case can be a TQ for example or AP on either duty, again depending on the player playing in the position).

Let's now analyze your team instructions. You said:  "I want to play a high pressing possession based style of football". Looking at your team instructions, it seems to me that you are trying to emulate - or at least put some principles to use - Herne's style of play from his great and highly instructive thread on a 4123 wide tiki-taka (am I right?). Which (if so) is nice, but that brings as back to your setup of roles and duties again.

So now I'll analyze your starting 11 from the screenshot you posted, to see which setup of roles could work with these guys in a possession and high-pressing-based 4231...

Based on what I saw here, my preference would be to use Coman as a winger on support on the right, while Gnabry would be an IF on attack on the left. Lewandowski can generally play any striker role, but in this particular system I would most likely use him as a DLF on support, so that he can act both as a goal-scorer and provider/creator, freeing up space for the attacking IF (Gnabry) and helping the AMC (Havertz) in the build-up phase. Havertz can be either a trequartista or AP on support, so you can experiment a bit to see what suits him better in different situations.

Now, let's take a look at the 2 CM guys... While Thiago playing as a DLP is basically a good choice, I have some doubts over Goretzka as a BBM, mainly because of his relatively poor positioning (only 10), but that can be offset by playing the RB (Kimmich) in a bit more conservative role (in this case I would opt for FB on support with the "stay narrower" PI). Alaba's most logical role in this setup would be a WB on support (although he could also sometimes be used as an IWB on support, if you want to compensate for the "lack of bodies" in the central midfield area).

As for the CBs, I would use both on defend duty (as you do), but would play only Hummels as a BPD, because he is both an intelligent and technically gifted player. Pavard can also be a BPD, but having both CBs as BPDs is a bit too much and is generally not advisable. Neuer is definitely "born" to be a SK, though I would have him on support duty (rather than attack).

What concerns me a bit is your extremely urgent pressing, which is a sort of overkill when used together with higher DL and LOE and on a high mentality (positive in your case). This can be even more of a problem given that you play in a system with no direct cover (protection) for the back-line (i.e. nobody in a DM position). And while your CBs are very intelligent and of high quality in general, none of them is a "Speedy Gonzales".

So, let's summarize... This is how I would set a primary tactic - which would likely require certain tweaks based on who you play against and how a particular match is developing -  for these 11 players:

Roles & duties

DLFsu

IFat          TQ/APsu           Wsu

DLPde    BBM

 

(I)WBsu    BPDde    CDde     FBsu

SKsu

(Starting) Team instructions:

In possession - shorter passing, play out of defense, work ball into box (and sometimes be more expressive); crosses can be whipped, though I would leave them on default (mixed).

In transition - distribute to CBs and FBs, counter (because it would be a pity not to utilize the pace and technical skill of your forwards), counter-press (though in tougher games it can backfire, so be cautious when using it)

Out of possession - higher DL, higher (or standard) LOE, use tighter marking (instead of a high pressing intensity), use offside trap and prevent short GKD; I would keep defensive width on default (standard), based on the overall strengths and weaknesses of your defense.

3 hours ago, CARRERA said:

- what are pors and cons about offensive and defensive width?

Narrower def width means that you are deliberately allowing opposition more space on the flanks, which is a good idea when your defenders are really good in dealing with crosses (jumping, heading, positioning, marking, strength and balance are key attributes IMO). The opposite is true for wider def width - you want to prevent the opposition from pumping crosses into your box as much as possible, because you don't have enough confidence in your defenders' aerial abilities, so you look to engage them in wide positions. The cons here is that you are leaving more space in the middle due to a (slightly) greater distance between your players (key defensive attributes - anticipation, acceleration, positioning, concentration, marking, tackling, composure, decisions).

Attacking width really depends on what you want to achieve and how the opposition are defending against you. Against a team like Bayern, most opponents will naturally look to defend deep and tight, so I would look to avoid narrow att width. Start with standard (i.e. default) and increase it (to wider) when you want to stretch the oppo defense in order to (hopefully) free some more space in the central areas of the final third.

3 hours ago, CARRERA said:

- is 4-3-2-1 even a good setup for what i want to achieve?

Honestly, I would rather go with a 4141dm wide with your Bayern team, but you can give 4231 a try, why not :thup:

 

3 hours ago, CARRERA said:

-  how to set up the "out of possession"

Already answered :brock:

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I'd just like to point out even if you improve your tactic, does the players attributes fit your style?

Are the CBs quick and reliable enough to cover all the space around them?

Do your forwards have the mental attributes to play a possession style? The off the ball movement to find space, the composure & decisions to be patient and pick the best options etc.

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18 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

First off, 4231 is a very top-heavy formation, so setting roles and duties up can be tricky. There is nobody in DM, only 2 players in CM and even 4 up front. So using both fullbacks in a CWB role is potentially very risky, even if they are on support duty (let alone attack). I personally would avoid playing a fullback in any role that is more attack-minded than FB on attack or WB on support (an IWB on attack can be an option sometimes, but you need to be very careful with it).

First of all thank you for your detailed review on my post. I can undertand here that CWB is very offensive, but i feel like that i wont get enough Overlaps im im just playing with WB on Support for example. Also i didn't really feel, that conceiding goals was a real problem because i played a lot of games 0:0 or just conceided 1 goal. All the Teams were playing pretty defensive so i thought a bit more power down both flanks would help me to score.

 

18 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Let's now analyze your team instructions. You said:  "I want to play a high pressing possession based style of football". Looking at your team instructions, it seems to me that you are trying to emulate - or at least put some principles to use - Herne's style of play from his great and highly instructive thread on a 4123 wide tiki-taka (am I right?). Which (if so) is nice, but that brings as back to your setup of roles and duties again.

I've read that thread, but basicly im trying to archieve a good tactic for my bayern save on every fm (my favourite team) and since they always play some kind of dominant possession play its obviously close to it.

 

19 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Based on what I saw here, my preference would be to use Coman as a winger on support on the right, while Gnabry would be an IF on attack on the left. Lewandowski can generally play any striker role, but in this particular system I would most likely use him as a DLF on support, so that he can act both as a goal-scorer and provider/creator, freeing up space for the attacking IF (Gnabry) and helping the AMC (Havertz) in the build-up phase. Havertz can be either a trequartista or AP on support, so you can experiment a bit to see what suits him better in different situations.

I've had that Setup for about 50% of the time playing and either changed AMC (AP) to support or attack because i always felt that havertz didnt have any impact on either Duty. He was neither taking nor creating chances at least from what I saw.

19 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Now, let's take a look at the 2 CM guys... While Thiago playing as a DLP is basically a good choice, I have some doubts over Goretzka as a BBM, mainly because of his relatively poor positioning (only 10), but that can be offset by playing the RB (Kimmich) in a bit more conservative role (in this case I would opt for FB on support with the "stay narrower" PI). Alaba's most logical role in this setup would be a WB on support (although he could also sometimes be used as an IWB on support, if you want to compensate for the "lack of bodies" in the central midfield area).

what other role would fit to a DLP on this formation? I could see using the DLP on Support and a basic CM on Defend.

19 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

In transition - distribute to CBs and FBs, counter (because it would be a pity not to utilize the pace and technical skill of your forwards)

Yeah I thought about this as well because bayern does actually play pretty fast forward from time to time, will give it a try. hopefully it doesnt kill the relatively patient play style im trying to achieve

19 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Out of possession - higher DL, higher (or standard) LOE, use tighter marking

Why would you use tighter marking? While i can see, that extremly urgent is to much on the pressing end, isnt tighter marking also an "high risk" mentality?

19 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Honestly, I would rather go with a 4141dm wide

is it because of the players, or because of the 4231 is a "bad" formation? When i started that safe i looked at the this years squad i thought this was the best suited formation since one of the best players (james) was a AMC

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8 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

I'd just like to point out even if you improve your tactic, does the players attributes fit your style?

Are the CBs quick and reliable enough to cover all the space around them?

Do your forwards have the mental attributes to play a possession style? The off the ball movement to find space, the composure & decisions to be patient and pick the best options etc.

actually i didnt took a look, but if bayern cant, who else would? I mean if bayern wasnt able to play a possession based game, it would be huge missdesign on player creation.

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8 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

I'd just like to point out even if you improve your tactic, does the players attributes fit your style?

Are the CBs quick and reliable enough to cover all the space around them?

Do your forwards have the mental attributes to play a possession style? The off the ball movement to find space, the composure & decisions to be patient and pick the best options etc.

All good and logical questions here :thup:

I have to admit that I'm concerned a bit about his wide forwards' tactical intelligence (Coman and Gnabry). No doubt they are very talented guys with great potential, but having some more experience up front (apart from Lewandowski) is always advisable for this style of play.

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1 hour ago, CARRERA said:

I can undertand here that CWB is very offensive, but i feel like that i wont get enough Overlaps im im just playing with WB on Support for example.

As I already said, you can use a FB (or even IWB) on attack duty in a 4231, but the setup I recommended was based on your selection of the starting 11 (not mine). If I managed Bayern, I would perhaps pick different players for certain positions (and probably even a different formation, like 4141dm wide) that might allow me to use my fullbacks in a more aggressive manner (because they would be better covered defensively). So you can have overlaps in a 4231, but you need to consider the whole picture, not just individual players or roles. After all, achieving overlaps (either through a TI or "naturally") makes sense only if those overlaps add something really meaningful to your game and team's performance. The same goes for underlaps, of course (or any other element of tactics).

 

2 hours ago, CARRERA said:

Also i didn't really feel, that conceiding goals was a real problem because i played a lot of games 0:0 or just conceided 1 goal. All the Teams were playing pretty defensive so i thought a bit more power down both flanks would help me to score.

I understand what you mean. Again, "more power down the flanks" - via overlaps, focus play or in some other way - do not guarantee in and of itself that you'll break down an ultra-defensive opponent. If you have watched Rashidi's Youtube videos - which I highly recommend - you could have seen that in his Liverpool save he sometimes tweaks his 4231 to make it very risky and adventurous in terms of roles and duties when trying to break down ultra-defensive sides that don't even want to attempt a counter-attack. Here he goes even so far as to use - among other things - a mezzala on attack duty in a 4231 (which is enormously risky and I myself would never dare to play so aggressively), but Rashidi knows perfectly well when, why and how he needs to do that without incurring too much risk. So if you feel you are as good a tactician and master of FM as Rashidi, go ahead :thup: ;)

Otherwise, you can try to be a bit more progressive in your approach when you encounter so stubbornly defensive opposition. Rather than trying to be a "bigger Rashidi than Rashidi", you can just for the moment stop insisting on slow and patient possession football at all costs and instead do a couple of small (but potentially effective) tweaks such as upping the tempo a notch (to higher), passing to standard (default) instead of shorter (and allowing players to "be more expressive" if you already haven't). 

2 hours ago, CARRERA said:

've had that Setup for about 50% of the time playing and either changed AMC (AP) to support or attack because i always felt that havertz didnt have any impact on either Duty. He was neither taking nor creating chances at least from what I saw.

Have you tried him as a trequartista? And do you use player instructions (not only for him but in general)? PIs can be a useful tactical tool if used in the right way. For example, I would allow Havertz to roam from position when playing him in any role in the AMC position in a 4231. 

 

2 hours ago, CARRERA said:

what other role would fit to a DLP on this formation? I could see using the DLP on Support and a basic CM on Defend.

But which player would you use as a CM on defend (alongside a DLP)? Of course you can play the combo of DLPsup and CMdef (or DLPdef and CMsup/BBM/CAR), but which particular combination you should use depends on the players you (intend to) play there.

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2 hours ago, CARRERA said:

Why would you use tighter marking? While i can see, that extremly urgent is to much on the pressing end, isnt tighter marking also an "high risk" mentality?

I would prefer tighter marking over more or extremely urgent pressing as a less risky way of putting additional pressure on opposition when they have the ball, especially when I play on a higher team mentality (positive, attacking or very attacking), because with a higher mentality all tactical settings also become comparatively "higher". So for example, if you play on a lower mentality (cautious for example) and set DL and LOE to higher, and then just change the mentality to a higher one (balanced, positive etc.) - your DL and LOE will automatically get additionally higher. The same goes for pressing intensity, as well as tackling (get stuck in will be more aggressive on higher mentalities than it is on lower ones). I hope you understand what I mean?

 

2 hours ago, CARRERA said:

is it because of the players, or because of the 4231 is a "bad" formation? When i started that safe i looked at the this years squad i thought this was the best suited formation since one of the best players (james) was a AMC

No, there are no "bad" formations (or good, for that matter). The "best" formation is always the one that suits your players best. I used a 4231 in FM18 with Tottenham and it worked very well. 

Where is James Rodriguez now in your Bayern save? He returned to Real from loan or what?

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Yeah, so today i once again gave a lot of things a try. I started a whole new Savegame. I turned one CD down from BPD, and went with WB's on support. Switched around dutys up fron tonce again. And tweaked TI#s here and there a bit.

I tried the Counter in transition for example which kind was ok, but leads to a huge loss in possession which im not willing to give away. Also I tuned down pressing from Extreme to just aggressive and lowered CD's a bit on pressing PI.

I also tried a 4231DM Wide with a SV and DLP on DM Position.

 

But long story short I will give up on this formation because i think it simply is not good for possessional play, since everything is super clumped up the pitch where AMC, Striker and bot CM's wil just be in the same spot. also there is not enough movement to justify a short-passing-game around the box. Or lets say it the other way round once the enemy is set up the ME is not able to provide through balls or lob passes into the box like bayern would do irl. 4231 i think should perform very well on a fast attacking gegenpress playing style but thats not what im looking for.

 

So i will give 4141 a try.

 

21 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I would allow Havertz to roam from position

yeah i had roam on AMC and Striker because i thought it would create some more room or pulling defenders out of their position. Oh and yeah james went back to real because i wanted to go on with harvertz.

btw: 90% of the time Bayern is Facing opponents with 5 defenders. even a lot of 541 formations on devensive mentality i face. very frustrating after all.

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1 minute ago, CARRERA said:

I tried the Counter in transition for example which kind was ok, but leads to a huge loss in possession which im not willing to give away

Honestly, I doubt it was the counter TI that led to the "huge loss in possession. Maybe some other TIs or roles. Because I regularly use the counter TI with all the teams I manage, and have never noticed any problem with losing possession. I mean, of course my team will lose possession sometimes, but not as a result of the counter TI (at least not to any significant extent). Plus, when you are a top team like Bayern, there won't be many opportunities for you to counter-attack anyway, as most teams will hardly be willing to give you the necessary space. Maybe a couple of times during a game will you see attempts by your players to counter-attack.

 

8 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

yeah i had roam on AMC and Striker because i thought it would create some more room or pulling defenders out of their position

Why both on roam? AMC (AP) yes, but the lone striker then should be a bit more static (and AFAIK, DLF already has the hard-coded "move into channels" PI, so you don't need to further augment his movement by adding the roam PI). But if you use a support-duty striker in a 4141/433, then you can tell him to roam.

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4 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Honestly, I doubt it was the counter TI that led to the "huge loss in possession. Maybe some other TIs or roles.

Yeah but they also to perform counter attacks without having it checked from time to time if its possible.

 

5 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Why both on roam? AMC (AP) yes, but the lone striker then should be a bit more static (and AFAIK, DLF already has the hard-coded "move into channels" PI,

Idk, those tweaks should be about do i win the CL final or not. And not a general thing if a team like bayern is able to beat some low tier sides of german bundesliga. Creativity and skill of the players should be high enough to unluck the defense here and there and not just from penalties or set pieces.

And of course tictical wise there are always options to play and try with, but i dont feel like the tactical thing was a complete mess or some weird fancy stuff. I think it still was pretty solid and basic. the only thing is the ME is not able to unlock the defense if you are not doing quick attacks. at least not on a 4231 formation. and honestly i doubt on any other. Maybe Positive is just not high enough of a mentality but idk... Like for example, shouldnt a B2B mitfielder join the box from time to time? why doesnt he on FM. why senseless crosses being made all the time even if you tell them to either and or go to byline / do them less.

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On 07/03/2019 at 00:57, Experienced Defender said:

So, let's summarize... This is how I would set a primary tactic - which would likely require certain tweaks based on who you play against and how a particular match is developing -  for these 11 players:

Roles & duties

DLFsu

IFat          TQ/APsu           Wsu

DLPde    BBM

 

(I)WBsu    BPDde    CDde     FBsu

SKsu

(Starting) Team instructions:

In possession - shorter passing, play out of defense, work ball into box (and sometimes be more expressive); crosses can be whipped, though I would leave them on default (mixed).

In transition - distribute to CBs and FBs, counter (because it would be a pity not to utilize the pace and technical skill of your forwards), counter-press (though in tougher games it can backfire, so be cautious when using it)

Out of possession - higher DL, higher (or standard) LOE, use tighter marking (instead of a high pressing intensity), use offside trap and prevent short GKD; I would keep defensive width on default (standard), based on the overall strengths and weaknesses of your defense.

So, I've actually spent the last few days on reading hundrets of pages / posts and whatever. I got much deeper into a lot of things like what exactly mentalities do, what passing actually is about and so on.

I did even play half a Season with exactly your Tactic and also watched some games at full time with this and other tactical aproaches. I even won the Champions League on one of the Saves. The thing is tho, it still doesnt work againts lower sides on the league, it seems to be incredibly difficult to score a goal if a team is defending the box with 9 players.

So when i watch the match on full mode i can kinda see what the problem is, we are doing senseless cross after cross, there is no penetration neither by passes nor by the players themselves. I've tried to bring in more directness on pasing from my playmakers / the whole team and also tried slightly lower the pressing line. But what happens is i just press less, but the enemy does still stay at his box so i simply just get more space on my own half.

So if anyone could actually help my to create tactic on this that actually works agains lower sides, i would really appreciate it. There are basicly just 2 things i want to maintain: it must be 4-2-3-1 Wide or 4-2-3-1 DM Wide formation (unless there is an issue with those formations in terms of ME), and the team needs to play a possession based style of play.

 

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Where are Boateng, Martinez, Tolisso and Muller? Have you sold them? Ribery and Robben, what about them?

2 hours ago, CARRERA said:

if anyone could actually help my to create tactic on this that actually works agains lower sides, i would really appreciate it. There are basicly just 2 things i want to maintain: it must be 4-2-3-1 Wide or 4-2-3-1 DM Wide formation (unless there is an issue with those formations in terms of ME), and the team needs to play a possession based style of play

I fear you are asking too much. You want someone to help you create a tactic that will automatically work against different types of opposition, and you still keep insisting not only on a certain playing style (possession) but also a formation, even if that particular formation is probably not quite suitable for your team at the moment :rolleyes:

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10 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Where are Boateng, Martinez, Tolisso and Muller? Have you sold them? Ribery and Robben, what about them?

They are all there, that save from the opening post is gone for a long time.

10 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

You want someone to help you create a tactic that will automatically work against different types of opposition

Actually i just need help in breaking down a defense, i dont have any problems against other type of teams (as i said, i won the CL where teams actually try to play football)

 

10 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

you still keep insisting not only on a certain playing style (possession) but also a formation, even if that particular formation is probably not quite suitable for your team at the moment

Its because I want to copy bayern IRL formation wich is actually one of the above mentioned in most of the games. But maybe you can give me some insights why this formation wouldnt suit bayerns players. Personally I think they have great players for each of the spots. But maybe i just cant see it because i watch bayern every weekend on Tv and FM maybe is different i dont know. 

I'm just desperate you know :P

 

btw: does managerial support / the experience level you set at the beginning of the game makes a difference? Because i always start on a lower level that would be required to get a job at bayern usually.

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2 hours ago, CARRERA said:

They are all there, that save from the opening post is gone for a long time.

So James Rodriguez is also there, right? But not Havertz?

 

2 hours ago, CARRERA said:

Actually i just need help in breaking down a defense, i dont have any problems against other type of teams (as i said, i won the CL where teams actually try to play football)

 

The problem with this is that you never know in advance how exactly a defensive opponent will defend (and generally play) against you, so there isn't an instant tactic that can be applied to each single case. You need to watch matches and understand what's happening on the pitch and make appropriate tweaks accordingly. That's how I play. I do a lot of analysis prior to each game to identify both strengths and weaknesses of the opposition and - based on that - make a couple of tweaks to my basic tactic here and there. And of course, a lot of times I also have to tweak the tactic during a match.

 

2 hours ago, CARRERA said:

Its because I want to copy bayern IRL formation wich is actually one of the above mentioned in most of the games. But maybe you can give me some insights why this formation wouldnt suit bayerns players. Personally I think they have great players for each of the spots. But maybe i just cant see it because i watch bayern every weekend on Tv and FM maybe is different i dont know

I don't watch Bayern every weekend, but I did watch both ECL games with Liverpool. I think in these two games Bayern played a sort of 4213dm wide (in FM terms), rather than standard 4231. Maybe in Bundesliga they play a 4231, though I would assume it's rather a deep version (with 2 DMs) than standard (with CMs). The key problem with the standard 4231 wide is that you don't have too much room to be creative with roles and - especially - duties, due to the top-heaviness of the system. Rashidi showed in his Liverpool video diaries how one can play using a 4231 when trying to break down ultra-defensive opposition. He uses an extremely risky setup of roles/duties in such situations, but he perfectly understands the game and hence knows when and in which way he can employ that high-risk version of 4231 to good effect.

My suggestion to you would be to try with an attacking version of 4213dm wide. It's a "defensive" bottom-heavy formation, but in combination with an attacking setup and higher mentality - it can produce some interesting play. And offers more variety in terms of roles and duties than standard 4231.

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3 hours ago, CARRERA said:

does managerial support / the experience level you set at the beginning of the game makes a difference? Because i always start on a lower level that would be required to get a job at bayern usually.

Really don't know. I've never thought about that.

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2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

So James Rodriguez is also there, right? But not Havertz?

yes, i start 1 or 2 new saves a day, so i basicly only play until winter and in some cases a full season. I do it because i want to find a tactic from where i can work with.

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

The problem with this is that you never know in advance how exactly a defensive opponent will defend (and generally play) against you, so there isn't an instant tactic that can be applied to each single case. You need to watch matches and understand what's happening on the pitch and make appropriate tweaks accordingly. That's how I play. I do a lot of analysis prior to each game to identify both strengths and weaknesses of the opposition and - based on that - make a couple of tweaks to my basic tactic here and there. And of course, a lot of times I also have to tweak the tactic during a match.

yeah im doing that, im far away from skipping throght on key highlights. as i said i watched many games even on full. I've proberbly read every thread on this forum and many other stuff i found on the internet. I've even completely read the "lines and diamonds" thing. 

Gamewise, its happening always the same. 9 defenders inside the box, the enemy does either play 541, 4141 flat, 5321 most of the time with defensive or cautious mentality if they are a top site like dortmund or leverkusen. So everything is very narrow, flanks are getting blocked, shots are getting bocked. 

What I've done so far is

  • using different setups from cautious to positive
  • faster and lower tempo
  • playing wider and narrower
  • higher and lower press
  • and mixed all this up - really, i did every possible thing i could imagine and / or got inspired with from a post or whatever. I dont exxagerate if i tell you that i almost played for 25 hours easily the last few days

but lets be honest, lets say im completely new to the game i pick my fav team, pick a pre-set tactic und get sacked every single time until winter break? You cant expect every player being a rocket scientist to figure out how to win (with possession / tiki taka) with a top team. Im really close to consider it bad game design. 

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I don't watch Bayern every weekend, but I did watch both ECL games with Liverpool. I think in these two games Bayern played a sort of 4213dm wide (in FM terms), rather than standard 4231. Maybe in Bundesliga they play a 4231, though I would assume it's rather a deep version (with 2 DMs) than standard (with CMs). The key problem with the standard 4231 wide is that you don't have too much room to be creative with roles and - especially - duties, due to the top-heaviness of the system.

yes they played with martinez vs liverpool on league they mostly play with goretzka as a more offensive role or tolisso if he isnt injured. You are right, its more like a 4231 DM, maybe i give this a try, always stepped away from it because its not their ideal position.

 

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Rashidi showed in his Liverpool video diaries how one can play using a 4231 when trying to break down ultra-defensive opposition. He uses an extremely risky setup of roles/duties in such situations, but he perfectly understands the game and hence knows when and in which way he can employ that high-risk version of 4231 to good effect.

yes ive seen that video aswell. As hes playing on attacking with slightly shorter passing, which actually is quite direkt and fast. as you can see on possession stats. 54% i think vs a hard defending low side. Also you can see that there is basicly no ball cycling around the players, its just direct fast forward passing. I can do this as well, but thats not quite what im looking for (maybe tho the only way to beat the game). I think you are quite familar with Premier League just thinking of man city, they dominate such an opponent with 70% and they will score with passing combinations inside the box, i mean tiki taka, its pep :D - guess you know what i mean. 

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

My suggestion to you would be to try with an attacking version of 4213dm wide. It's a "defensive" bottom-heavy formation, but in combination with an attacking setup and higher mentality - it can produce some interesting play. And offers more variety in terms of roles and duties than standard 4231.

ill try that

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oh, btw and i even found out that the team shape is still affecting mentality of the players. it basicly works the same as it did on fm18 the difference tho is you cant switch it just like this you have to change it by dutys.

Ive noticed it on attacking on "fluid" defenders will have "average" mentality while on "highly structured" they have cautious. Also you can see the creativity familarity changes

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10 hours ago, CARRERA said:

i start 1 or 2 new saves a day, so i basicly only play until winter and in some cases a full season. I do it because i want to find a tactic from where i can work with.

Wait a minute... if I understand you correctly, you start 1 or 2 new saves every single day, and all these saves are with Bayern ??? :stop:

 

10 hours ago, CARRERA said:

I think you are quite familar with Premier League just thinking of man city, they dominate such an opponent with 70% and they will score with passing combinations inside the box, i mean tiki taka, its pep :D - guess you know what i mean. 

Yeah, I am very familiar with EPL and perfectly understand what you mean. You are right, that's how Pep's City play. Though I'm not a fun of that style. I prefer the type of attacking football played by Solskjaer or Klopp (really not because I'm a LFC fan). Pep's style is a bit boring to me, I like more concrete and fast action :brock: :D

 

10 hours ago, CARRERA said:

btw and i even found out that the team shape is still affecting mentality of the players. it basicly works the same as it did on fm18 the difference tho is you cant switch it just like this you have to change it by dutys.

Ive noticed it on attacking on "fluid" defenders will have "average" mentality while on "highly structured" they have cautious. Also you can see the creativity familarity changes

Interesting. I really haven't payed attention to that. Good to know.

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I have a suggestion for you. I have devised two very similar tactics - based on your players at Bayern -  that employ the 4213 dm wide system in an attacking way, with which I would try to break down very defensive opposition that you are struggling against. Now, given that you already tend to start so many saves with Bayern, you could start yet another save in which you can test my tactic against weaker teams, just to see if it can help with unlocking ultra-defensive sides. I don't know whether and how it's gonna work, but you can give it a try anyway (if you want, of course).

The tactic no.1

DLFsu

APsu                                 RMD

BBM

HB        REG

CWBat     BPDde    CDde      WBde

SKsu

The players I would use as the starting 11 and player instructions for them:

GK/SKsu - Neuer

DL/CWBat - Alaba

DR/WBde - Kimmich - sit narrower

DCL/BPDde - Hummels or Boateng - stay wider, dribble less, less urgent pressing

DCR/CDde - Sule - take fewer risks, less urgent pressing / Hummels or Boateng - less urgent pressing

DMCL/HB - Martinez - mark tighter, less urgent pressing

DMCR/REG - Thiago - get further forward, mark tighter

MC/BBM - Tolisso or Goretzka - shoot more often, mark tighter, more urgent pressing

AML/APsu - Rodriguez or Ribery

AMR/RMD - Muller

ST/DLPsu - Lewandowski - roam from position, more urgent pressing

Team instructions:

Mentality - Attacking

In possession - shorter passing, play out of defence, work ball into box, be more expressive, overlap right

In transition - counter, counter-press, take short kicks, distribute quickly to CBs and FBs

Out of possession - higher d-line, much higher LOE, use tighter marking, use offside trap, prevent short GKD

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The tactic no.2

DLFsu

APsu                                 IFat

BBM

HB        REG

CWBat     BPDde    CDde      FBsu

SKsu

The players I would use as the starting 11 and player instructions for them:

GK/SKsu - Neuer

DL/CWBat - Alaba

DR/FBsu - Kimmich - sit narrower, hold position

DCL/BPDde - Hummels or Boateng - stay wider, dribble less, less urgent pressing

DCR/CDde - Sule - take fewer risks, less urgent pressing / Hummels or Boateng - less urgent pressing

DMCL/HB - Martinez - mark tighter, less urgent pressing

DMCR/REG - Thiago - get further forward, mark tighter

MC/BBM - Tolisso or Goretzka - shoot more often, mark tighter, more urgent pressing

AML/APsu - Rodriguez or Ribery

AMR/IFat - Rodriguez or Robben

ST/DLPsu - Lewandowski - roam from position, more urgent pressing

Team instructions:

Mentality - Attacking

In possession - shorter passing, play out of defence, work ball into box, be more expressive

In transition - counter, counter-press, take short kicks, distribute quickly to CBs and FBs

Out of possession - higher d-line, much higher LOE, use tighter marking, use offside trap, prevent short GKD

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Edit: sorry, I forgot to mention one more team instruction that I would use in both tactics - Dribble less. To encourage the players to try and break opposition defense through a quick and creative interchange of passes (including one-twos), rather than dribbling too much and thus risking losing the ball when faced with a tight and packed defense. Of course, players whose roles have hard-coded dribbling PIs (and those with such traits) will still dribble, but slightly less than they otherwise would.

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1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

Now, given that you already tend to start so many saves with Bayern, you could start yet another save in which you can test my tactic against weaker teams, just to see if it can help with unlocking ultra-defensive sides. I don't know whether and how it's gonna work, but you can give it a try anyway (if you want, of course).

as i am sitting here watching bayern leading 6:0 after 70 minutes against mainz i will if course give it a try, starting new save ;-)

Can i have some insights tho why you decided to use a wide playmaker on AML/R?

Also why the right right FB needs to sit more narrow and the left defender be more wide?

 

I'll give you a feedback on the tactics later

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4 hours ago, CARRERA said:

Can i have some insights tho why you decided to use a wide playmaker on AML/R?

Not wide PM but advanced PM (wide PM is in wide midfield). And not in AML/R, but just in AML. Honestly, given that James Rodriguez is left-footed, I would prefer to have him as an AP on the right, so that he would cut inside and dictate play in the final third. But the "problem" is Alaba, because he is a left back, and I see him as an ideal choice for a CWB. So I wanted to pair him with an AP on the same side of the pitch, which in this case is the left. If Alaba was a right back, then James would be APsu on the right. But he isn't. 

 

4 hours ago, CARRERA said:

Also why the right right FB needs to sit more narrow

For two reasons. In attack - to be better available to central players as a passing options during attacking build-ups. Defensively - to cover for the regista who is encouraged to get further forward and be more occupied with playmaking duties further up the pitch. However, in the first tactic (with Muller as RMD), the RB (Kimmich) is WB on defend, but the "overlap right" TI increases his mentality slightly and thus makes him be more involved in attacks while still being defensive enough to protect the flank. That's a sort of "compromise" that should make good balance. 

 

4 hours ago, CARRERA said:

and the left defender be more wide?

The left CB is told to stay wider only when your team has the ball, so that he covers on the flank for the attacking CWB (Alaba) who will bomb forward most of the time. And there is Martinez as the HB to drop between your CBs and virtually act as a "third defender" that serves as additional protection against possible counter-attacks by opposition, which allows Alaba to be so much attacking. Without a HB, the left CB would not be told to stay wider in possession, and Alaba would also have to be less attack-minded. So you need to consider everything in the context of the tactic as a whole.

 

4 hours ago, CARRERA said:

I'll give you a feedback on the tactics later

Let's hope it finally works :brock:

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1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

Let's hope it finally works :brock:

Ok, I'm done with half a Season, unfortunately i got sacked at the end of the 1st period before winter break. I also have some stats for you, but i will have a few comments first. So essentially the same happened as always box got loaded with 9 Defenders + 3-4 of my players. Unfortunately there are some huge flaws on ME regarding crosses and AMR/L movement and some very badly scripted / pre set other things (there are some nice threads on ME forums)

Just a few Examples:

  • Crosses: you can see the attacker to wait for the defender to come and block the cross, they sometimes wait for like 3-4 seconds. In addition to that wide players will always cross when the passed a scertain point at the pitch (you basicly have to kill your tactics to stop them cross into the scripted block, will come to that later). So in a normal possession play wide defenders try to overlap and maybe pass back to the overlapped person which will almost never happen on FM, maybe some will try passes sidewards but w/e ill get back to this later because it is a huge part of the problem we face
  • Headers: the enemy is playing a long ball, your player hast like 25% of the pitch around him completely free. What will happen is he is heading the ball to the nearest enemy "so pressure is contious" It happens so often, it must be pre set aswell.
  • AMR/L: this is the biggest problem no matter what you do they will ALWAYS stick to the enemy FB and as a defensive tactic is very narrow they will never stay wide wich will stop the FB to play a pass instead of a cross and will also denie all space in the middle of the pitch.

The ME is so badly designed that you basicly not fighting your opponets but rather the engine at least if you want to apply a certain style of play. I guess the thing is the engine is so old that its not possible to replicate modern football so they had to implement at lot of pre set and scripted animations along the years. So you bascicly have to play what the ME is made for -> fast attacking footbool like liverpool plays it. And this heavily shows up if you playing a top site. 

 

Ok, back to the stats

Tabelle.thumb.jpg.cb7934402228f232465f498ea9b7c6c1.jpg

 

So non of the Bayern players is at the top 5 of anything except neuer for clean sheets

 

1088735214_PlayerStats.thumb.jpg.1391549b16eefb3ba7eb09096f687a15.jpg

 

As mentioned earlier, since attacking mentality with slightly shorter passes is still more direct than average on standard, so i didnt expect to have too much.

 

possession.thumb.jpg.971ce21c56d7e4bc6130765d88ccc1d5.jpg

 

Goals.thumb.jpg.96b2746be102975c67da767a67f53f28.jpg

Conceded.thumb.jpg.200669ba11bd2041822c500d6a7bd536.jpg

as you ca  see we were not even able to score 1 goal per match on average and even worse, 50% of those goals were from set pieces (penalty, freekicks, corners). So basicly we only scored EIGHT goals from actual play.

And you honestly have to admit, the tactic you provided may not be perfect but it cant be as bad that a team like bayer is only able to score 8 goals in 17 bundesliga matches especially not on a high risk mentality. 

 

Meanwhie tho i also figured out that "Pass into Space" does not only force people to pass into space, it actually also forces players to move into that space which wasnt clear to me. And i will test around on this because it could create the movement i am looking for. But honestly im quite disapointed by FM 19 eventhough i liked the previous versions. If i look around i can see many people having the same problem with top sites and noone is able to provide a solution to this. All Threads about certain styles of play of from lower side teams which dont face defensive sites or from older versions of the FM. Maybe i will also try some formations without AMR/L beacause they are one of the main problems this style of play doesnt work.

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If I had more time, I would start a save with Bayern to test the tactic myself and see where the problem lies and what should be tweaked. But unfortunately I don't, because I rarely manage to play more than 2 matches a week, so in the best-case scenario, I would be able to play the first official game of the season as late as three weeks from now. 

Btw, have you used these my two tactics in all matches or only against much weaker opposition?

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1 minute ago, Experienced Defender said:

If I had more time, I would start a save with Bayern to test the tactic myself and see where the problem lies and what should be tweaked. But unfortunately I don't, because I rarely manage to play more than 2 matches a week, so in the best-case scenario, I would be able to play the first official game of the season as late as three weeks from now. 

Btw, have you used these my two tactics in all matches or only against much weaker opposition?

Actually i used it against all Teams, actually it won against some of the better Teams. 

Properbly the only Chance Is to sit deep aswell and try to counter them, because a high press simply doesn’t work if I win the ball back when they are all in their own half. 

if you press high the main goal achieve must be creating space at the other teams line to play througballs into the box or at least some kind of pass into the box. I’m not quite sure on how to do it or if it even is possible. 

I still have some ideas in me about some more structured shapes to hopefully create more gaps, because on a fluid shape it definitely doesn’t work. 

 

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4 hours ago, CARRERA said:

Actually i used it against all Teams, actually it won against some of the better Teams. 

I created it only for weaker/much weaker teams that play very defensively. But as you see, it obviously worked better against the stronger opposition. Which is a bit strange, but that's how things stand :)

Anyway, I'm sure there's a way to do it. I believe just a few tweaks here and there would make it work. That's why I analyze everything in detail and watch all my matches in full. 

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1 minute ago, Experienced Defender said:

Anyway, I'm sure there's a way to do it.

Yes there is and i actually found the key to break down defensive sites without giving up the possession or implement a complete different style from what i want my team to play. First of all I have to take back what i said about the ME, i mean there are still some flaws but it is not as bad as i said it would be. Though I have to admit that certain things are very poorly explained by the game also the tactic creation is not as intuitive as i may look like.

I may post a much more detailed Thread about this topic later or these days but basicly you have to understand 4 things:

  • What does Mentality do: That there are different settings pre set already some are visible, some are not (why not make all visible?!). There a Basicly 9 Steps on the most of the sliders, which are in terms of Tempo for example Extremly low - much lower - lower - slightly lower - standard - slightly higher - higher - much higher - extremely high. While the position of the slider may vary "higher" for example will always be higher no matter what mentality you chose. Also you might not be able to achieve every step on every mentality. For example you cant play a extremely low tempo on Standard or higher mentality unless you also decrease passing range.
  • Whats it with the passing: That shorter passes are not about directness and direct passes are not about length or to say, short passes can be quite direct and direct passes can be quite short. Also that horizontal and vertical compactness of the Team will affect passing length and directness 
  • Team Shape is still a huge thing: This was the actual Key thing to understand, that Team Shape is still one of the most important things to apply if you want to applay a certain style of play may it be more direct, counter or possession based. The only difference to FM18 is basicly that you cant set it just like that but it will be automatically set by assigning duties - the effect it has tho is the same as it always has been. And this I have to admit could have saved me a lot of time, but there is nothing ingame that gieves a hint what it does and that actually is a thing. Until now i thought that they removed the impact of shape and just showing it for fun.
  • What does Team Shape do: not 100% accurate but pretty compact in a few words: Team Shape is about your vertical depth and creative freedom. So the more Strict you hare the more depth your formaton gets which will create space, vice versa with fluid.

So basicly the conclusion to my problem was to increase both vertical depth and horizontal width to create more space.  I still have to finetune roles and PI / TI a bit but the basic shape of my team is set.

 

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  • 7 months later...
On 08.03.2019 at 00:58, Experienced Defender said:

I would prefer tighter marking over more or extremely urgent pressing as a less risky way of putting additional pressure on opposition when they have the ball, especially when I play on a higher team mentality (positive, attacking or very attacking), because with a higher mentality all tactical settings also become comparatively "higher". So for example, if you play on a lower mentality (cautious for example) and set DL and LOE to higher, and then just change the mentality to a higher one (balanced, positive etc.) - your DL and LOE will automatically get additionally higher. The same goes for pressing intensity, as well as tackling (get stuck in will be more aggressive on higher mentalities than it is on lower ones). I hope you understand what I mean?

 

No, there are no "bad" formations (or good, for that matter). The "best" formation is always the one that suits your players best. I used a 4231 in FM18 with Tottenham and it worked very well. 

Where is James Rodriguez now in your Bayern save? He returned to Real from loan or what?

Experienced Defender could you share your FM 2018 4231 tactic ? Im playing fm 2018 now.

 

Edited by yaşar
ı added something.
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