Mastering Movement - Evolving my 4312

[the SLC]

2 hours ago, Rashidi said:

When you focus down the wings, or play wider, its going to naturally see more crossing from the wingbacks. So you need to sit narrow

yes that is true and has been great for what i wanted but now i want something else. will try a narrow system and see if i can make my DLF the primary creator.

[gcengic]

On 11/03/2019 at 18:49, the SLC said:

Will do. Once kids are in bed and the Mrs is drunk

He said "Bust the NET" not "Bust the NUT" mate. 

 

[the SLC]

2 minutes ago, gcengic said:

He said "Bust the NET" not "Bust the NUT" mate. 

 

if i was planning on doing that i would be getting the mrs involved!!

[Rashidi]

On 13/03/2019 at 18:42, the SLC said:

yes that is true and has been great for what i wanted but now i want something else. will try a narrow system and see if i can make my DLF the primary creator.

That shouldn't be hard, if he has good otb

[the SLC]

17 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

That shouldn't be hard, if he has good otb

i didnt realise off the ball was required for creating. means i bought the wrong kind of player. i went for passing, vision and flair

[Rashidi]

25 minutes ago, the SLC said:

i didnt realise off the ball was required for creating. means i bought the wrong kind of player. i went for passing, vision and flair

Off the ball is an important attribute for any player who is required to be creative. Others need to find him, if his otb is not good, then he doesn't move around as much as other people. OTB + Workrate + passing vision decisions is important. If you want him to keep the ball while under pressure, then balance, agility and composure. 

Always have a priority system for attributes in your head. It makes the game so damn easy when you do.

[the SLC]

1 minute ago, Rashidi said:

Off the ball is an important attribute for any player who is required to be creative. Others need to find him, if his otb is not good, then he doesn't move around as much as other people. OTB + Workrate + passing vision decisions is important. If you want him to keep the ball while under pressure, then balance, agility and composure. 

Always have a priority system for attributes in your head. It makes the game so damn easy when you do.

cheers yet again i shall scout around for a more suitable player

 

[Tyrinko]

After watching episodes about MIC (about 10 times) I am not sure if I am doing the overloading left side correctly, and I don´t know if the DLFa role is ideal to my tactics ( I am totally lost in players roles after reading so much articles) The idea for my game is overload the left side of the pitch with WBs, MEZs and IFs and with DLF on attack duty to create space for my right sided IFa to by main goalscorer. The question is - Is better to use Forward role with MIC instruction + is the BTB midfielder enough support from deep to my IFa? (I was trying to have CMa but it looks like they go to each other way).
Can someone help me with explanation of tactics or tactical tweaks???? 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Tyrinko said:

After watching episodes about MIC (about 10 times) I am not sure if I am doing the overloading left side correctly, and I don´t know if the DLFa role is ideal to my tactics ( I am totally lost in players roles after reading so much articles) The idea for my game is overload the left side of the pitch with WBs, MEZs and IFs and with DLF on attack duty to create space for my right sided IFa to by main goalscorer. The question is - Is better to use Forward role with MIC instruction + is the BTB midfielder enough support from deep to my IFa? (I was trying to have CMa but it looks like they go to each other way).
Can someone help me with explanation of tactics or tactical tweaks???? 

@Rashidi will no doubt give you a better answer and explanation than me, but my guess is that you could do a better job overload-wise with an AP on support instead of IF on the left, DLF on support (instead attack) and perhaps even a DLP in the MCR instead of BBM. All this provided of course that your players are good enough to keep the ball under pressure. Because AP and MEZ can draw oppositon to the left, DLFsup would be also there to help, and then you have a DLP behind as a relatively safe passing option for possession-recycling, which combined should give the attacking IF on the right enough time and space to run into and hopefully exploit.

Btw, not sure if the "pass into space" TI is necessary here.

[Rashidi]

 

3 hours ago, Tyrinko said:

After watching episodes about MIC (about 10 times) I am not sure if I am doing the overloading left side correctly, and I don´t know if the DLFa role is ideal to my tactics ( I am totally lost in players roles after reading so much articles) The idea for my game is overload the left side of the pitch with WBs, MEZs and IFs and with DLF on attack duty to create space for my right sided IFa to by main goalscorer. The question is - Is better to use Forward role with MIC instruction + is the BTB midfielder enough support from deep to my IFa? (I was trying to have CMa but it looks like they go to each other way).
Can someone help me with explanation of tactics or tactical tweaks???? 

You lack a punch in central midfield and you are increasing the burden for the DLF(A), he works very well within my system but he also has comes deep to get the ball. Your issue I bet is congestion, when you get to the final third there is no space. you create the space with movement, that will come with a Mezz on attack duty, because he could drive forward and work with the IF(S).

To overload the left you may even need to consider an overlap, not sure how good your fullbacks are, here I am using the overlap specifically for the higher positioning, its a risk but that's why my Firefox 4123 features an anchorman. The mezzala ideally needs switch ball to other flank, this gives you two routes to goal, if the WB can get up. The BBM is a strange choice, unless he is absolutely great at defending and going up, your other options are a DLP who will help you switch play, a CM(S) who with the get into opposition area, can be another source of trouble for the defence. 

When you use a BBM you expose the WB on the right during a transition.

The goal should be for your side to either fling a ball to the right for the IF(A) to score or the WB down the right flank gets up in close support. To ensure you get that kind of support you need to think about Player instructions for the FB (sit narrower). This makes him pass inside rather than go on a blinding run. Finally while you are using Pass Into Space, it is possible to save it till  you really need it. Here another option is the early cross. The WB on the  left can be given that PI or you can use it as a TI which is good since you are already playing on a standard LOE/DL configuration. Speaking of which, that too is unnecessary. You could be far too deep and your players may not get up in support well enough, all this is causing your team to allow congestion to happen. So you could push the DL up to higher. I assume you have fast defenders.

The reason why is cause I don't think you are generating nearly as many touches in the opposition area as I think are possible with this system.  Personally I use a DLF(A) in my system because I do want him to get forward as well, but with a comes deep to get the ball, I get the best of both worlds. He drops deep helps the buildup, maybe release the ball early to the IF(A) because we have hit early crosses and because he has risky passes on, or he arrives late and finishes off a move. The Attack duty also means that when you camp, he is in and around the box, while your IFs drag a team around.

Another option for extracting more space is with a Mezz/W combo, this works to deliver crosses, so if you want more cutbacks and crosses instead of crosses to heads, then consider playing narrow width. Against defensive teams you may even need to consider overlap right as well. Using the overlap instruction as a creative way to defend with a high press takes some practice but the payback is huge. Its my favourite way of playing cos it closely mimics what LFC do in real life. I do play with custom blocks as well, but you will need to master the basics about movement before you go making huge changes like that. So for now I recommend doing some basic role/duty changes with the addition of one TI.

[Tyrinko]

On 15/03/2019 at 16:11, Experienced Defender said:

@Rashidi will no doubt give you a better answer and explanation than me, but my guess is that you could do a better job overload-wise with an AP on support instead of IF on the left, DLF on support (instead attack) and perhaps even a DLP in the MCR instead of BBM. All this provided of course that your players are good enough to keep the ball under pressure. Because AP and MEZ can draw oppositon to the left, DLFsup would be also there to help, and then you have a DLP behind as a relatively safe passing option for possession-recycling, which combined should give the attacking IF on the right enough time and space to run into and hopefully exploit.

Btw, not sure if the "pass into space" TI is necessary here.

 

On 15/03/2019 at 17:53, Rashidi said:

 

You lack a punch in central midfield and you are increasing the burden for the DLF(A), he works very well within my system but he also has comes deep to get the ball. Your issue I bet is congestion, when you get to the final third there is no space. you create the space with movement, that will come with a Mezz on attack duty, because he could drive forward and work with the IF(S).

To overload the left you may even need to consider an overlap, not sure how good your fullbacks are, here I am using the overlap specifically for the higher positioning, its a risk but that's why my Firefox 4123 features an anchorman. The mezzala ideally needs switch ball to other flank, this gives you two routes to goal, if the WB can get up. The BBM is a strange choice, unless he is absolutely great at defending and going up, your other options are a DLP who will help you switch play, a CM(S) who with the get into opposition area, can be another source of trouble for the defence. 

When you use a BBM you expose the WB on the right during a transition.

The goal should be for your side to either fling a ball to the right for the IF(A) to score or the WB down the right flank gets up in close support. To ensure you get that kind of support you need to think about Player instructions for the FB (sit narrower). This makes him pass inside rather than go on a blinding run. Finally while you are using Pass Into Space, it is possible to save it till  you really need it. Here another option is the early cross. The WB on the  left can be given that PI or you can use it as a TI which is good since you are already playing on a standard LOE/DL configuration. Speaking of which, that too is unnecessary. You could be far too deep and your players may not get up in support well enough, all this is causing your team to allow congestion to happen. So you could push the DL up to higher. I assume you have fast defenders.

The reason why is cause I don't think you are generating nearly as many touches in the opposition area as I think are possible with this system.  Personally I use a DLF(A) in my system because I do want him to get forward as well, but with a comes deep to get the ball, I get the best of both worlds. He drops deep helps the buildup, maybe release the ball early to the IF(A) because we have hit early crosses and because he has risky passes on, or he arrives late and finishes off a move. The Attack duty also means that when you camp, he is in and around the box, while your IFs drag a team around.

Another option for extracting more space is with a Mezz/W combo, this works to deliver crosses, so if you want more cutbacks and crosses instead of crosses to heads, then consider playing narrow width. Against defensive teams you may even need to consider overlap right as well. Using the overlap instruction as a creative way to defend with a high press takes some practice but the payback is huge. Its my favourite way of playing cos it closely mimics what LFC do in real life. I do play with custom blocks as well, but you will need to master the basics about movement before you go making huge changes like that. So for now I recommend doing some basic role/duty changes with the addition of one TI.

Thank you both for your opinions. I was going to use Rashidi´s opinions and change system to this

My LB has PI to hit early crosses and RB to sit narrower. Front three have got PI to press more (left IF has got Get further forward too) - This is because I want to press defenders with my front three to force them kick the ball long, where my midfielders/defenders can win the ball back. I don´t create so many chances (about 2 half chances per game) and our games is about 1-2 goals. I am going to try analyse my faults or if it is because of wrong players for this system. BTW @Rashidi is somwhere your Phoenix system in video/text analyse? When I am looking on Youtube you often has got something like 4-3-1-2 - most similar was Red Pharaoh system with LFC for FM18. Thanks both for your help with tactics to completly lost gamer.

[the SLC]

i have decided on a 4123 formation. all narrow so the only width is that of the wingbacks. 3 strikers is a challenge trying to find the right movement and what roles allow for that. my current front 3 are a DLFs/F9/AF. i cant explain why i have opted for these roles but so far so good. AF main scorer, my DLF most assists. my current DLF is martial so not the best DLF of choice

[the SLC]

@Rashidi

ive reverted back to the 442 with some changes to roles etc. i have stopped the game at a random point during the 2nd half. im wondering if any one can poin tout any glaring issues they see? also included my new formation and 11 playing this game

Edited March 21, 2019 by the SLC

[Robson 07]

On ‎02‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 13:16, Rashidi said:

Now Prevent Short GK distribution changed in FM19 noticeably. Now, you will see a team's formation change slightly as  a result of Prevent Short GK. This will happen when an opposite team decides to play out of defence only. Here your team will take up positions to shut down passing lanes. I actually posted a image on this on Twitter early in FM19 showing this to people. When you play with this instruction, you will see your boys apply pressure.

@Rashidi I've just tried a narrow diamond and think I've noticed something I presume is instruction related.  Prevent short GK distribution.  What seems to happen is that with my formation the strikers split really wide toward the sideline, as they play out, to try and cover the oppo's fullbacks or splitting central defenders.  This seems to instantly open my formation right up and make a high press futile.  The ball just gets passed back to the opposition goalie or someone in deep central midfield who if unchallenged looks and up and just smashes it over the top of my defence for a 1 on 1.  I need to test further but I think if I untick "prevent...." my team goes into defensive phase in a more normal manner.

I also think - and I may be wrong - but if I were using a 4141, 4231, or 442 this problem would not exist as it would be my wide players that push up into the wide areas to perform the prevent.  Just seems really nasty with a narrow diamond. 

Am I right or am I commenting on something else that's doing this?

Edited April 1, 2019 by Robson 07

[Rashidi]

20 minutes ago, Robson 07 said:

Prevent short GK distribution.  What seems to happen is that with my formation the strikers split really wide toward the sideline, as they play out, to try and cover the oppo's fullbacks or splitting central defenders. 

When someone uses that team instruction they have to consider how their formation will play when they play out of the back, which is why prevent short GK only works well with some formations

[Robson 07]

34 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

When someone uses that team instruction they have to consider how their formation will play when they play out of the back, which is why prevent short GK only works well with some formations

Yeah so it would seem therefore a good call by you earlier in this thread.  If anyone has bombed with the 4-1-2-1-2 it may be as simple as unticking that instruction.  There's probably even a way to make it (the diamond that is) work if you know what's going to happen.  For how I was thinking about things it was disastrous obviously until I noted something was amiss and remembered Rashidi's note saying what he has said about formations.

Edited April 1, 2019 by Robson 07

[Rashidi]

Only specific formations work with prevent short GK distribution, otherwise you are asking for trouble. A good bet is to watch how they play the ball out and then determining if your team can pull it off.

[jackal_949]

thanks Rashidi. It was great for me to share it in writing because I don't speak English. I took advantage of this article using google translate.

[Mourinho_Mastermind]

@Rashidi I would like to ask you the opinion on  a 4312 tactic.I tried to emulate the Mourinho 2010  4312 tactic and i think i did good but i would like a second opinion

[HanziZoloman]

Wow dig it out from the caves of FM.

very good stuff, made my first relegation battle free year in Bundesliga after promotion 3 years ago.

@Rashidisometimes I just get ripped apart from big contenders like Dortmund, Bayern and Schalke (playing the coward 4312) did this happen to you too? 

Edited January 10, 2022 by HanziZoloman

[Aoyao]

Fantastic post