Creating A Tactic - Step By Step

[Rashidi 3,001]

41 minutes ago, Cleon said:

The role behaves exactly like the IWB does with or without multiple DM'S. It was an issue on FM18 but on FM19 it isn't. If anything, the bug for FM19 is that the IWB doesn't act like a WB when it should in various shapes. Not the other way around.

Thats the description on the tin. No changes were made to how the IWB was behaving between FM18 and FM19, its behaving the same way. What you are seeing are the effects of the player instructions of the role kicking in, such as Sit Narrower and Roam From Position. There are limiting factors to getting an IWB to work as designed and one of them is the number of DM's used in a system.  

 

[Cleon 1,798]

28 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

Thats the description on the tin. No changes were made to how the IWB was behaving between FM18 and FM19, its behaving the same way. What you are seeing are the effects of the player instructions of the role kicking in, such as Sit Narrower and Roam From Position. There are limiting factors to getting an IWB to work as designed and one of them is the number of DM's used in a system.  

 

Nope it plays the exact same way regardless, whether you use one or two DM’s. It plays different than it does on Fm18. You can check yourself. I even just loaded the game before and looked. They behave very different on both games. 

Also majority of all roles had changes and tweaks under the the hood for FM19. They basically all had some kind of changes.

Ive been using the role 12 seasons in this system, you haven’t. I know how the game works as well, I’m not some thicko like you’re making out. You’re just full of sweeping statements.

And grats on linking the description, if you bothered to even read the thread you’d see it was already posted by me. I know how the role is designed, I was one of two people who gave detailed analysis of the bugs the role had. 

What I’m seeing regular is the IWB playing the exact same way, regardless of the number of DM’s I know what I’m seeing. 

Now if you’re going to reply and just post the same again, can I suggest you don’t waste your time, as it’ll be wasted on me. 

[Jack Joyce 1,159]

1 hour ago, Cleon said:

Nope it plays the exact same way regardless, whether you use one or two DM’s. It plays different than it does on Fm18. You can check yourself. I even just loaded the game before and looked. They behave very different on both games. 

Also majority of all roles had changes and tweaks under the the hood for FM19. They basically all had some kind of changes.

Ive been using the role 12 seasons in this system, you haven’t. I know how the game works as well, I’m not some thicko like you’re making out. You’re just full of sweeping statements.

And grats on linking the description, if you bothered to even read the thread you’d see it was already posted by me. I know how the role is designed, I was one of two people who gave detailed analysis of the bugs the role had. 

What I’m seeing regular is the IWB playing the exact same way, regardless of the number of DM’s I know what I’m seeing. 

Now if you’re going to reply and just post the same again, can I suggest you don’t waste your time, as it’ll be wasted on me. 

As you said earlier Cleon, this may be a bug in FM19 if they're coming in to the middle like this when the area is already occupied by 2 DMs. Out of curiosity, does this still happen when both DMs are using the role 'defensive midfielder'? They may be coming inside because you are utilising half-backs, which have role-specific movement that may allow the IWBs space to move inside. 

I don't want to take this thread off-topic but if you have more info on how this works with different roles please either PM me or start a bug thread, as I don't think this was an intended change to the role's behaviour. Thanks!

[Cleon 1,798]

10 minutes ago, Jack Joyce said:

As you said earlier Cleon, this may be a bug in FM19 if they're coming in to the middle like this when the area is already occupied by 2 DMs. Out of curiosity, does this still happen when both DMs are using the role 'defensive midfielder'? They may be coming inside because you are utilising half-backs, which have role-specific movement that may allow the IWBs space to move inside. 

I don't want to take this thread off-topic but if you have more info on how this works with different roles please either PM me or start a bug thread, as I don't think this was an intended change to the role's behaviour. Thanks!

I’ll try just two pure defensive midfield roles when I get home later. Either way, I have a lot of PKM’s and saved games from my 12 seasons so I can gladly pass the info on with all the data I still have. But it’s 100% not an issue in this set up with the HB and anchor.

Strangely enough, on FM18 they behave very different though.

[Jack Joyce 1,159]

45 minutes ago, Cleon said:

I’ll try just two pure defensive midfield roles when I get home later. Either way, I have a lot of PKM’s and saved games from my 12 seasons so I can gladly pass the info on with all the data I still have. But it’s 100% not an issue in this set up with the HB and anchor.

Strangely enough, on FM18 they behave very different though.

Yeah I have a feeling it'll be down to the use of halfbacks. If they're only coming inside in situations when it makes sense to it may not be an issue at all. Thanks for checking!

[kingking 408]

This guide is to long mate. The best Guides/Tutorials are ones that can explain complex ideas into simple concise explanations 

the basics of creating a tactic can be explained with less words for example..

Stronger Teams are recommended to  use Attacking Possession-Style Football

Barcelona, Liverpool, City, Real Madrid  

4-1-4-1 DM 

4-2-3-1

Weaker Teams are recommended to Defensive Counter-Attacking Direct Football

Atletico madrid, Leicester 

4-4-2

4-2-3-1

that is a something you should explain at the beginning 

Edited May 3, 2019 by kingking

[Cleon 1,798]

15 minutes ago, kingking said:

This guide is to long mate. The best Guides/Tutorials are ones that can explain complex ideas into simple concise explanations 

the basics of creating a tactic can be explained with less words for example..

Stronger Teams are recommended to  use Attacking Possession-Style Football

Barcelona, Liverpool, City, Real Madrid  

4-1-4-1 DM 

4-2-3-1

Weaker Teams are recommended to Defensive Counter-Attacking Direct Football

Atletico madrid, Leicester 

4-4-2

4-2-3-1

that is a something you should explain at the beginning 

If you say so. Why not go and create your own thread then? Show us all the complex ideas and condense it a few short sentences that show/explain how the work. Can’t wait to see your stuff.

[Cleon 1,798]

POST 6 UPDATED WITH THE FINAL PART OF THE SERIES

[Rien102 79]

Great read Cleon!  I got a question though.  With both side backs often getting narrow, does this create a lot of wing to wing lateral balls?  I am thinking of this mainly on longer possession times, when the team is trying to pry the defense...

[Cleon 1,798]

5 hours ago, Rien102 said:

Great read Cleon!  I got a question though.  With both side backs often getting narrow, does this create a lot of wing to wing lateral balls?  I am thinking of this mainly on longer possession times, when the team is trying to pry the defense...

Side backs? The IF's? If you're on about the IF's then I still have width on the left side of the pitch with the wingback who provides the width. I also have runners from central too and the Mez also plays wide at times as shown in the examples in the post I added yesterday.

I don't see one style of play constant, we have a real mix of different ways to attack. The side can be patient and probing or they can be aggressive and direct and all this happens naturally due to the roles and settings used. Sometimes there might be wing to wing play as shown in the examples I posted about the IF's in the 6th article. It's a real mix of different styles we play.

[buachuta 16]

Wonderful thread.

 

One thing I'm struggling with this year is how to make a lone striker effective. It drives me mad seeing his ratings 6.5 or lower and sadly it happens too often. I have a great team and goals are well spread but my strikers never scored more than 15 league goals. How's your doing @Cleon? Wonder if it's something I'm doing wrong or should I accept my lone striker is there to make a space for wide players and provide support rather than being lethal goalscorer.

 

Just my weird fetish as I love my central striker to be a top scorer, but I can't get it to work like that.

[Rien102 79]

Il y a 5 heures, Cleon a dit :

Side backs? The IF's? If you're on about the IF'

I was thinking of wing to wing plays between the left and right backs.

[Cleon 1,798]

2 hours ago, buachuta said:

Wonderful thread.

 

One thing I'm struggling with this year is how to make a lone striker effective. It drives me mad seeing his ratings 6.5 or lower and sadly it happens too often. I have a great team and goals are well spread but my strikers never scored more than 15 league goals. How's your doing @Cleon? Wonder if it's something I'm doing wrong or should I accept my lone striker is there to make a space for wide players and provide support rather than being lethal goalscorer.

 

Just my weird fetish as I love my central striker to be a top scorer, but I can't get it to work like that.

My striker scores around 25 goals in 40 games every season. But my striker isn't my main source of goals, it's the IF's, Mez and the CM who are the scorers for me.

If you want the striker to score, then he needs supply and support to help him get the goals. I wrote this which will likely help you further and is really in-depth;

https://teaandbusquets.com/blog/what-makes-a-goalscorer

2 hours ago, Rien102 said:

I was thinking of wing to wing plays between the left and right backs.

Not really complete wingback to inverted wingback as the roles don't really link up like that. And if that did happen it would likely be to the IF's instead.

[Cleon 1,798]

@buachuta

[Kuchiki 41]

1 hour ago, Cleon said:

@buachuta

Oh wow! those are some really impressive stats.

[roggiotis 62]

The 2 GKs played 85 games ! How many games the season has ? 

[Rien102 79]

Il y a 3 heures, Cleon a dit :

Not really complete wingback to inverted wingback as the roles don't really link up like that. And if that did happen it would likely be to the IF's instead. 

Ok.  Thanks for the swift answer and thanks for the entire thread.  It was as pleasurable to read it as it was informative!

[Cleon 1,798]

27 minutes ago, roggiotis said:

The 2 GKs played 85 games ! How many games the season has ? 

87 if I reach the Copa Lib final and the Brazilian Cup final.

[roggiotis 62]

Seems that Traore 10 goals 16 assists and 8.21 is a key player. Is he IWBs or CWBa ?

Can you post an overview-profile ss ? I want to see the pros-cons

 

[Cleon 1,798]

52 minutes ago, roggiotis said:

Seems that Traore 10 goals 16 assists and 8.21 is a key player. Is he IWBs or CWBa ?

Can you post an overview-profile ss ? I want to see the pros-cons

 

Sure when I’m home tomorrow. Traore is the IWB. He gets a lot of assists because of linking up with the IF and CM when he drives in field. He creates space with his running and drags people out of position. 

[Cleon 1,798]

@roggiotis

[roggiotis 62]

Great !

I see you train him as a CWB-A ,but in DR or in WB-R position ?

Good versatility ,the potential for retraining suggests WB-R, but why don't you retrain in DL-position since you play W-M ?

 

[Cleon 1,798]

58 minutes ago, roggiotis said:

Great !

I see you train him as a CWB-A ,but in DR or in WB-R position ?

Good versatility ,the potential for retraining suggests WB-R, but why don't you retrain in DL-position since you play W-M ?

 

I already have left-sided players, so don't need to retrain him really. I train him for CWBA in the DR positions

[zemaniano85 30]

@Cleon thanks for you effort to put all these threads on, I am a eagerly follower, I just get hungry of FM every time I read your threads.

[Cleon 1,798]

32 minutes ago, zemaniano85 said:

@Cleon thanks for you effort to put all these threads on, I am a eagerly follower, I just get hungry of FM every time I read your threads.

Thanks. Makes it all worth while if I know people like the stuff I write

[robot_skeleton 94]

@Cleon do you set something specific for set pieces, or just leave it on default? Is it something you care about?

[Cleon 1,798]

2 minutes ago, robot_skeleton said:

@Cleon do you set something specific for set pieces, or just leave it on default? Is it something you care about?

I always leave set pieces default and never touch them. 

[herne79 4,810]

18 minutes ago, Cleon said:

I always leave set pieces default and never touch them. 

Sadly I can only upvote this once.

[Double0Seven 542]

So im crazy for trying weird stuff and "surprising" my AI managers? Maybe I overestimate AI managers...

[robot_skeleton 94]

19 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Sadly I can only upvote this once.

Because it can be exploitative?

[Gee_Simpson 345]

Wow, I really expected the experts to use their own set piece tactics  Pleasantly surprised at this one. 

[Cleon 1,798]

14 hours ago, robot_skeleton said:

Because it can be exploitative?

This is one of the reasons I don't touch them yeah. Plus I do okay with them as default. I'd rather focus on what the tactic does instead of set pieces. There's nothing wrong with combining them both but for me, if I stumbled across something that worked too well, it would ruin the entire game.

[Zemahh 1,129]

Set piece creator is, in my opinion, the most inconvenient thing in the game. As much as I like min-maxing and paying attention to every little detail, I absolutely hate setting up set pieces. I like the fact there's many different scenarios, but having to go through all of them for every change you want to make, is way too tiresome. And then, when you finally set them up, you have to do it all over again if you ever make a new tactic from scratch or change the personnel.

[yolixeya 177]

On 09/05/2019 at 12:58, Zemahh said:

Set piece creator is, in my opinion, the most inconvenient thing in the game. As much as I like min-maxing and paying attention to every little detail, I absolutely hate setting up set pieces. I like the fact there's many different scenarios, but having to go through all of them for every change you want to make, is way too tiresome. And then, when you finally set them up, you have to do it all over again if you ever make a new tactic from scratch or change the personnel.

Yeah, mee too. Usually I leave it and then after some time I finally will have patiance to set it up again.

Set piece creator also needs some advanced options. The corners in game don't really look like corners IRL. You can not score a goal like Ronaldo scored against Ajax where other players are making a block and he comes around unmarked. Corners in game are just players scattered to diferent positions and roles. It doesn't give impression that they are working as a team.

[Gee_Simpson 345]

@Cleon Do you not even bother with setting up defensive set pieces? 

[Cleon 1,798]

3 hours ago, Gee_Simpson said:

@Cleon Do you not even bother with setting up defensive set pieces? 

Nope, nothing.

[AlexcH 1]

Amazing thread. I have been reading so many of your articles @Cleon. They are so genius. They have really made my approach to FM more fun.

Thanks!

 

 

[axelmuller 22]

amazing.

Garrinchinha what a name for a football player.

on the side note. what has happened to Tea and busquets it dont seem to work.

[AceCream 38]

1 hour ago, axelmuller said:

amazing.

Garrinchinha what a name for a football player.

on the side note. what has happened to Tea and busquets it dont seem to work.

Yeah I was gonna ask. I always timeout when trying to connect to tea and busquets :/ :/ 

[robot_skeleton 94]

Cleon seems to have left twitter and the community for good, which is a heartbreak :/ and teaandbusquets went with him.

[Gee_Simpson 345]

12 hours ago, robot_skeleton said:

Cleon seems to have left twitter and the community for good, which is a heartbreak :/ and teaandbusquets went with him.

Really? 

[Gee_Simpson 345]

I should have taken screenshots of his articles on T&B that I have bookmarked 

[Experienced Defender 2,283]

13 hours ago, robot_skeleton said:

Cleon seems to have left twitter and the community for good, which is a heartbreak :/ and teaandbusquets went with him.

How do you mean? 

[robot_skeleton 94]

28 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

How do you mean? 

I wasn't on twitter myself for the last few months but regularly checked if he had FM updates and a few weeks ago he announced he would deactivate his account and said goodbye. Then his site was no longer accessable. I do hope however that he comes back, he was truly awesome.

[Gee_Simpson 345]

20 minutes ago, robot_skeleton said:

I wasn't on twitter myself for the last few months but regularly checked if he had FM updates and a few weeks ago he announced he would deactivate his account and said goodbye. Then his site was no longer accessable. I do hope however that he comes back, he was truly awesome.

He has disappeared and came back a few months later before, so hopefully this is just a break for him like before. 

[Experienced Defender 2,283]

25 minutes ago, robot_skeleton said:

I wasn't on twitter myself for the last few months but regularly checked if he had FM updates and a few weeks ago he announced he would deactivate his account and said goodbye. Then his site was no longer accessable. I do hope however that he comes back, he was truly awesome.

Me too, mate. He is one of the few people here that so many of us have learned plenty of highly useful stuff that has helped us improve our knowledge and understanding of the game. 

 

7 minutes ago, Gee_Simpson said:

He has disappeared and came back a few months later before, so hopefully this is just a break for him like before. 

Let's hope so. 

[Joey Numbaz 166]

Did he say why? I hope he's OK. I wasn't paying attention to Twitter much the last few weeks. Bummed like everyone else. Was especially looking forward to his upcoming series on building with youth, taking his Ajax stuff from a few years ago a step further.

[Justified 175]

Slightly drama queen-esque I have to say.

Fair enough if you don't want to contribute anymore but to delete your accounts and so noone can read your work is a little childish.

[herne79 4,810]

48 minutes ago, Justified said:

Slightly drama queen-esque I have to say.

Fair enough if you don't want to contribute anymore but to delete your accounts and so noone can read your work is a little childish.

We don't know what's going on so we shouldn't start jumping to conclusions.  

All we can do is wish him well, hope that whatever direction he's now going in is the best for him and if this is indeed the end of his contributions here to thank him for everything he's done for us.

And if you want to read his work, all you need do is look up his threads on this forum.

[Joey Numbaz 166]

Also there’s the way back machine, archive.org that has most of everything. I’ve even found linked images that no longer work in some tactical threads here, at that site. When they say everything you put on the Internet is forever, a big part of that is because of archive.org.