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I can't get no (Penetration)


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Im looking for some help - I didn't want to hijack Herne's thread but have been using this and Cleon's guides to put my tactic together.  However.....

I (like many) just cant seem to get the striker to work and to create chances - most of my goals are coming from rebounds, free kicks or crosses.  There is no creativity.  My thinking has been that the B2B will support the attacks and make some runs into the box as will the IF on both flanks, however this does not happen.  I have experimented with a winger(s) on the right side but the crossing issues with the ME were infuriating.   What I am seeing is we have good possession, some positive passing, until we get to the box and it becomes static.  I have also tried changing tempo, EOL, but with no luck.  I could see when on Positive mentality, we were too rushed, and a Balanced mentality has allowed us to be a bit more dominant (thinking of Cleon's guide), however, the strikers are just not making the movement or links with play.  So what you see is some lovely short passing around the box and then maybe a long shot at the end.

In terms of the strikers, I have tried DLF(s & a), CS (S) and even AF but none seem to get any movement.

 

I'm starting to get really frustrated and want to get it right (and understand!)

 

Any help is greatly appreciated

 

dy20pt.png

Edited by Fieldsy
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I think you're trying to fit square pegs into round holes with your lineup in a couple of places. I don't think your strategy, structurally, needs major revision (in fact it's a lot more balanced than a lot of what I see people post), but there are a couple of points I would take a look at:

1. Have you chosen appropriate roles for Özil and Ramsey? The AP(A) role dribbles a fair amount, and does so quite aggressively, something that I don't think suits Özil's game. Similarly, Ramsey isn't really a complete, all-action midfielder so much as he's a withdrawn AM.  I would try Özil as an AP(S) and Ramsey as a CM(A). It may seem like fairly aggressive role distributions, but you only have one fullback with an attack duty, and you have a dedicated holding midfielder.

2. What's the thought behind the supporting-role striker? You're Arsenal, so a lot (most, in this year's FM, it seems) of teams are going to well and truly park the bus against you. Having your striker drop deep so Bergwijn can attack the space behind him sounds great in theory, but that presupposes your opponents aren't just retreating to their own box as soon as they lose the ball. I would strongly consider giving the AF role, or a role that makes similarly aggressive runs, to your striker so he can pin back the defense. This should create space in front of the defense (which is where the space is going to be against low-block teams) for your CM(A) and your IFs - I just don't think you're consistently going to find space in behind, which is what the IF(A)/CF(S) duo is looking to manufacture in the first place.

Edited by Sampsiceramos
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Thanks - will try some of this out - in terms of Ozil and Ramsey, Ozil was actually performing well but looking back certainly wasn't getting the final ball in.  Same with the B2B in terms of late runs, I guess your point of it being crowded makes sense.

 

Will try with a AF - my thinking was that everything I have ever read with lone striker roles is that keep a support duty to link with the team and not become isolated - has this now changed in FM19?

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It hasn't changed, per se, but the idea of pinning back the defense has always been around, and has always been particularly relevant for top sides that are going to face a lot of packed boxes. You simply cannot consistently create space behind the defense against teams that defend with 8-9 men in the box, so you take the space you're being given and use it depending on the squad you have available: if you have a Shrek-sized target man, you take the space a deep and narrow team is giving you on the wings, whip in crosses, and hope Shrek wins a header or three; if you have a team with wingers and midfielders that can slot it in from the top of the box, you take the space you're being given in front of the defense and force your opponents to either come forward and close down your players or give up the "golden zone".

It's true that your striker might not look very involved in the play when you use him like so, but that doesn't mean it can't be incredibly effective. The risk of your striker becoming isolated is also somewhat smaller when you have multiple players in the AM strata, and will generally be winning the ball back far up the pitch. I'd rarely advise you to play an AF as a lone striker in a deep 4-5-1, for example, where the risk of him receiving the ball and having absolutely no options is far greater.

Edited by Sampsiceramos
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I agree with some of the points made by Sampsiceramos, specifically on Ozil. Given that he is left-footed, I would use him as an AP on support in the AMR position. The MCL would be a DLP on support, while Lacazette could play either as a DLFsu or F9 in this system (btw, where is Aubameyang?). So if I managed Arsenal using a 4141dm wide system, I'd more or less go with the following setup of roles and duties (as part of my starting tactic):

DLFsu/F9

IFat                                       APsu

DLPsu      BBM/CMsu

HB/AC/DMde

WBsu    CD     CD       FBat

SKde/su

Unlike you, I would definitely use the Counter-attack TI in transition, and would distribute to both CBs and FBs (sometimes could even tell the keeper to distribute quickly).

In possession, depending on the opposition and how they defend in a given game, I would experiment with instructions such as "Work ball into box" and "Be more expressive", occasionally a bit higher tempo, maybe whipped instead of low crosses (especially against defensive sides that "park the bus"). Not necessarily all these instructions at the same time, but rather depending on what I observe watching the match.

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To be honest, the movement of a lone striker in the game is a real concern and will hopefully be improved with the patch. The movement of midfield is generally ok but the striker, despite a number of different roles and duties used. I went back to fm18 and the difference in movement is significant when near the box. FM19 around the box is very static

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It's incrediblt frustrating. I'm using the same formation as OP and I'm fairly successfull but just can't get my striker to score. Last season it was understable because I had some very poor forwards (but still, one scored 7 and the other one just 1 goal whole season!), but I bought Dolberg and he scored 1 goal in 4 games - it was a penalty. 

Sickening. I can't get anything to work :( It sucks out a joy of me.

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I don't have any issues with posession, results and a general play but this lack of goals from striker is killing me.

I tried more creative roles on the left wing and attacking role for striker, but it didn't change anything.

Edited by buachuta
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14 minutes ago, buachuta said:

ofl62tu.png

I've already told this to so many people, but unfortunately I'll have to repeat it once again - your setup of roles and duties is extremely one-dimensional. While that might not be much of an issue defensively, it clearly hinders your attacking potential. Btw, I assume you are Everton (based on a few players' names and blue shirts), which is a good team, but not a top one. The 4th position on the table is a very nice achievement (albeit it's only September 1, i.e. the beginning of the season). I don't know if you always use this tactic, or make tweaks depending on how tough a particular game/opponent is?

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42 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I've already told this to so many people, but unfortunately I'll have to repeat it once again - your setup of roles and duties is extremely one-dimensional. While that might not be much of an issue defensively, it clearly hinders your attacking potential. Btw, I assume you are Everton (based on a few players' names and blue shirts), which is a good team, but not a top one. The 4th position on the table is a very nice achievement (albeit it's only September 1, i.e. the beginning of the season). I don't know if you always use this tactic, or make tweaks depending on how tough a particular game/opponent is?

I don’t have issues with results. Im set up to play posession football, but maybe you have point I should add some creativity and variety to the tactic. I just thought if I put creative player in an IF role, he’ll be the one to feed my CF and IF on the other side. Maybe I need some more penetration coming from the middle of the park as well. 

Back to the drawing board for me I guess. 9 goals in 50 games for my strikers is just unacceptable.

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On 04/02/2019 at 06:05, Experienced Defender said:

I agree with some of the points made by Sampsiceramos, specifically on Ozil. Given that he is left-footed, I would use him as an AP on support in the AMR position. The MCL would be a DLP on support, while Lacazette could play either as a DLFsu or F9 in this system (btw, where is Aubameyang?). So if I managed Arsenal using a 4141dm wide system, I'd more or less go with the following setup of roles and duties (as part of my starting tactic):

DLFsu/F9

IFat                                       APsu

DLPsu      BBM/CMsu

HB/AC/DMde

WBsu    CD     CD       FBat

SKde/su

Unlike you, I would definitely use the Counter-attack TI in transition, and would distribute to both CBs and FBs (sometimes could even tell the keeper to distribute quickly).

In possession, depending on the opposition and how they defend in a given game, I would experiment with instructions such as "Work ball into box" and "Be more expressive", occasionally a bit higher tempo, maybe whipped instead of low crosses (especially against defensive sides that "park the bus"). Not necessarily all these instructions at the same time, but rather depending on what I observe watching the match.

I'm interested in your suggestions here. I've recently got back into FM after not playing since FM12. It's a real slog, particularly given the very obvious ME problems others have mentioned. 

I've been playing around as Arsenal and one point I would note is that Ozil has the 'comes deep' ppm, which with an APMs duty sees him play far too deep too often for my liking (and with lack of proper deep forward movement sees him playing too far away from the two forwards) . Second, I would wonder if swapping the two MC roles would be better (DLP on right and CMs/b2b on left)?

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2 hours ago, dz47 said:

I would note is that Ozil has the 'comes deep' ppm, which with an APMs duty sees him play far too deep too often for my liking

Coming deep to get the ball does not mean he will remain deep all the time. He comes deep because he wants to take part in the build-up as early as possible, but once the ball has moved into the final third, he'll be there to support the attack.

 

2 hours ago, dz47 said:

I would wonder if swapping the two MC roles would be better (DLP on right and CMs/b2b on left)?

Can work, of course. Though in that case I would make the LB a bit more conservative (WBde, IWBde or standard FBsu), lest the left flank be too vulnerable to counter-attacks. A number of combinations can work, provided you take care to have proper defensive cover and overall balance of roles and duties.

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I see your point, but I'm not sure why you would want another player contributing to build up deep when you already have 3 central players (plus possibly fullbacks) to provide this? And my experience is that by constantly coming deep, Ozil will often not get back into a higher position quick enough to provide good support to the FC.

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16 minutes ago, dz47 said:

I see your point, but I'm not sure why you would want another player contributing to build up deep when you already have 3 central players (plus possibly fullbacks) to provide this? And my experience is that by constantly coming deep, Ozil will often not get back into a higher position quick enough to provide good support to the FC.

If so, then simply don't play Ozil :) Because if he tends to come deep (trait), he will do that regardless of position, role and duty. Or give him a role in which his coming deep would not be much of concern for you :brock:

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Yeah I have :) 

One of the main reasons I changed from this (my preferred) formation to a 4231. For me Ozil plays better as AMC support. He comes deep a bit less and can contribute to building play (with the two CMs) leaving the two wide players to operate and provide support higher.

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