4-3-3 Half Back (Pep's Barca)

[mp_87]

6 minutes ago, Sticx said:

Iniesta came with that PPM so I wouldn't say you want to stay away from it at all. His role is almost impossible to replicate on FM however. That trait needs very high decision making, vision, and composure to pull off, but it is nice to have when it works.

Yeah of course you might want and benefit from a specific player to have that PPM, or maybe a centre back with long passes/switches it to the flank as an added weapon in your play. Personally for me I have found over the years that killer passes, long passes, and runs with ball often PPM's straightaway cause me concern, and if they don't unlearn them I usually get rid. If I want riskier/longer passes (real life eg. De Bruyne's style of play within this type of system) I'll set it via PI's rather than be somewhat straightjacketed by PPM.

[yonko]

5 hours ago, Sticx said:

Iniesta came with that PPM so I wouldn't say you want to stay away from it at all. His role is almost impossible to replicate on FM however. That trait needs very high decision making, vision, and composure to pull off, but it is nice to have when it works.

Successful possession style of play requires high number in those attributes too. It's not just decisions, vision and composure. There is also passing, technique, first touch, anticipation, off the ball and teamwork. Xavi, Iniesta and Messi have 19s and 20s in those attributes. That's why they were the best and most successful in that style. It was designed and based on their best qualities.

Check now Silva and KDB at City what attributes they have.

[pauly15]

 

[Sticx]

One of the worst PPM's is shoots from distance. Any time a player with that trait gets anywhere near the box they shoot even though I instruct to work into box. It's incredibly frustrating.

[yonko]

Nothing new really. This has always been the case with PPMs or Player Traits. They need to be considered when building a tactic to play specific way.

[pauly15]

11 minutes ago, yonko said:

Nothing new really. This has always been the case with PPMs or Player Traits. They need to be considered when building a tactic to play specific way.

The frequency has been dramatically increased from the beta. There's analysis on YouTube and in the ME bugs thread. 

In systems that build slowly and have players getting more touches in more areas of the pitch, the current frequency has a big impact. For example your AP won't be part of the build up and play a killer ball when it's on, they will try it just about every time they touch the ball. 

As an aside, it's made this tactic go from a click and go sextuple winner every year to a coin toss to win any game. 

[yonko]

Just now, pauly15 said:

The frequency has been dramatically increased from the beta. There's analysis on YouTube and in the ME bugs thread. 

In systems that build slowly and have players getting more touches in more areas of the pitch, the current frequency has a big impact. For example your AP won't be part of the build up and play a killer ball when it's on, they will try it just about every time they touch the ball. 

That may be because SI have tweaked the ME in terms of through balls. There was common complain there were missing from earlier in the Beta, while there were too many crosses instead. I'm sure they will tweak it again until they get the balance right in future patch. 

Regardless, PPMs have always been essential when creating tactics and need to be considered.

[pauly15]

34 minutes ago, yonko said:

That may be because SI have tweaked the ME in terms of through balls. There was common complain there were missing from earlier in the Beta, while there were too many crosses instead. I'm sure they will tweak it again until they get the balance right in future patch. 

Regardless, PPMs have always been essential when creating tactics and need to be considered.

Agreed 100% - it's just that increasing PPM frequency to its current rate (perhaps) to help create chances is causing more problems that it has fixed imo.

When I uploaded this tac to fmscout on the beta I included this:

Which was a rough guide. But now the ppms are just completely mad. 

If I were doing that same table again there would be a lot more in the "bad" / "all" section. Basically.... Every PPM I think!

[pauly15]

PEP-BALL 2010. Nailed it.

 

Problems solved:

• Striker auto-piloting to CF regardless of role? Not a problem... he's dead.
• Every striker role  to 'move into channels'? No worries, don't use one.
• "prevent short GK distribution" should be renamed "push IF high and FB deep, allowing simple pass to full-back", but I've solved that little issue;) 
• AP(s) in CM pressing  at less urgent? Not a problem my good man, he now plays higher.
• Don't want 7 players rushing the ball? Remove counter-press. 
• BPD launching it? Not an issue, make him a DC... maybe give him some "runs with ball often"?
• Urge to vomit at the formation screen? No problem! Go to preferences and turn off match preview.
• Too many long balls? too many switches out wide? Not a problem! Get yourself a blindfold / wait for the patch! 

PPMS:

AP(a): drops deep to get ball, runs with ball through centre.

IFs: cut inside, get forward whenever possible, beat offside trap

AP: plays 1-2s, dictate tempo, refrain long shots

MC: look for pass instead of scoring, 1-2s, play way out of trouble

HB: Simple

DW: Hug line, get forward whenever possible, 1-2s, refrain long shots

DCs: do simple stuff

GK none.

You're welcome

[Gegenklaus]

29 minutes ago, pauly15 said:

PEP-BALL 2010. Nailed it.

 

Problems solved:

• Strikers auto-piloting to CF: not a problem... he's dead.
• Every striker role  to 'move into channels'? No worries, don't use one.
• "prevent short GK distribution" should be renamed "push IF high and FB deep, allowing simple pass to full-back", but I've solved that little issue;) 
• AP(s) in CM pressing  at less urgent? Not a problem my good man, he now plays higher.
• Don't want 7 players rushing the ball? Remove counter-press. 
• BPD launching it? Not an issue, make him a DC... maybe give him some "runs with ball often"?
• Urge to vomit at the formation screen? No problem! Go to preferences and turn off match preview.
• Too many long balls? too many switches out wide? Not a problem! Get yourself a blindfold / wait for the patch! 

PPMS:

AP(a): drops deep to get ball, runs with ball through centre.

IFs: cut inside, get forward whenever possible, beat offside trap

AP: plays 1-2s, dictate tempo, refrain long shots

MC: look for pass instead of scoring, 1-2s, play way out of trouble

HB: Simple

DW: Hug line, get forward whenever possible, 1-2s, refrain long shots

DCs: do simple stuff

GK none.

You're welcome

Haha, those gifs man.

[yonko]

This is not 433 anymore, is it?

Which role is "Xavi" and which role is "Iniesta"?

Is the AP-A the main scorer like Messi was? 

I haven't seen most of the problems you say you have found solution for. The only problem is with ST or AM (if you go strikerless) movement and combination play with the CMs in the final third.

[pauly15]

1 minute ago, Gegenklaus said:

Haha, those gifs man.

[pauly15]

18 minutes ago, yonko said:

This is not 433 anymore, is it?

Which role is "Xavi" and which role is "Iniesta"?

Is the AP-A the main scorer like Messi was? 

I haven't seen most of the problems you say you have found solution for. The only problem is with ST or AM (if you go strikerless) movement and combination play with the CMs in the final third.

Really? They're all... omnipresent for me.

the AP(a) is the false 9, the Ap(s) is iniesta. 

It's not accurate because you basically play at 1000 miles a minute, but it's (laughably) far far closer than I can get with a 4-3-3.

[yonko]

25 minutes ago, pauly15 said:

Really? They're all... omnipresent for me.

the AP(a) is the false 9, the Ap(s) is iniesta. 

It's not accurate because you basically play at 1000 miles a minute, but it's (laughably) far far closer than I can get with a 4-3-3.

Can you show some clips?

So the Xavi role is the CM-S?

Who gets the most goals?

[pauly15]

57 minutes ago, yonko said:

Can you show some clips?

So the Xavi role is the CM-S?

You can't use a playmaker role as it ups the passing directness which is already oversensitive in this ME. 

[yonko]

2 hours ago, pauly15 said:

You can't use a playmaker role as it ups the passing directness which is already oversensitive in this ME. 

What is the problem with that?

I haven't seen any problem.

[pauly15]

 

[pauly15]

Sadly this is still not possible with the current ME. Gonna play some fallout 76 for a while!

[abdi1721]

Just now, pauly15 said:

Sadly this is still not possible with the current ME. Gonna play some fallout 76 for a while!

Actually testing this with Barcelona on my save. I moved back the Wm to CWB-At and it's been playing great football. Gotta play a few more games, but I love it so far.

[pauly15]

1 hour ago, abdi1721 said:

Actually testing this with Barcelona on my save. I moved back the Wm to CWB-At and it's been playing great football. Gotta play a few more games, but I love it so far.

I doubt that. Offensively it plays ok but CWBs cause other problems. Does the opposition goalkeeper have an easy 'playing out' option (from goal kicks) to their FB every time? (your IF marks high, WBs deep, and MCs tight?) Either that or an easy pass to their DMC?

Prevent short GK kick on:

 

Prevent short GK kick removed:

With both settings it's unworkable. Whether you pick tight marking on or off for the WBs / IFs, play wider or tight marking for the CM... each present their own problem.

players don't position themselves well. Ideally you want more players 'half-half' making all playing out options risky for the GK. If they want to play out they should have to take more risk that shown above.

[yonko]

2 hours ago, pauly15 said:

Sadly this is still not possible with the current ME. Gonna play some fallout 76 for a while!

I thought you said you nailed it a few hours ago. 

What happened?

[pauly15]

2 hours ago, yonko said:

I thought you said you nailed it a few hours ago. 

What happened?

I un-nailed it! It's un-nailable as:

none of the attacking midfield roles mimic a f9 closely enough;

strikers regardless of role make a bee line for CF when in possession;

Stopping short GK kicks is unworkable in a 4-3-3 or anything that resembles it;

You can't find the right balance for passing length without stuffing up too many other things

And more

[pelidaaq]

I don't know too much english but I'll get a try in purpose to reply Guardiola's Way (if you can teach me some things and words in your language I'll apreciate that). The first  tactic it's the 2010/2011 commonly used  in many matches and the other ones are the try to reply the 3-4-3 from season 2011/2012 against Villareal, Barcelona scored five goals in that match. My AM and my IF have "gets into oposition area". The only problem I have it's the Xavi role because my AM it's my "Pichichi" and performs creating chances and taking chances. I don't know how to choose between RPM or CM because Xavi was the heart of that build up phase, definitely it's not DLP because this role have the instruction "hold position" and Xavi roams a lot. But Xavi didn't have awesome physical atributes, because he didn't run like Kanté, he always complete triangles with other players. 

https://www.guidetofm.com/tactics/choosing-roles-duties

I took some information of that web and I think that Xavi and Messi give us more than just passes and dribbles.

[denen123]

On 24/10/2018 at 10:00, pauly15 said:

A fairly common tactical idea in a 4-3-3 is the role of the #10 in pressing. Typically, the front 3 will cover/squeeze the four defenders, and the #10 will push in tightly on the opposing #6. At present, when you select an "advanced playmaker" their maximum pressing is capped at "less urgent", even when your tactics are set to the most aggressive pressing options available. It makes it difficult to achieve a fairly standard idea. Here's an example:

The 9 and 7 have done their jobs, the 11 is roughly in the right area, however the #10 (despite having tight marking and maximum pressing, never pushes in enough, allowing them to play out easily:

A midfielder receives the ball under no pressure. 

 

Every 4-3-3 I've played in/coached asked our #10 in midfield to push in tight on the opponent's #6 as their role in the press. If they don't, it's quite easy to play out through the free player. 

I've tried to work around this by setting my #10 to tightly mark the specific #6, however it is not always this specific in reality. What is meant by "pick up the 6" is that your #10 will simply be tight on the opponent midfielder who drops in to get the ball from their defence. 

Use a generic AM on support & play on his TI's to get the pressing you desire. With specialist roles you expect specialist treatment. What you're asking your 'advanced playmaker' to do is, to be a master with the ball & a bull dog without(would Ozil, for example, do such? Messi, sometimes, not everytime. Dybala?) Sometimes attributes(workrate) might help, but that's about it, really.

[abdi1721]

On 03/06/2019 at 12:21, pelidaaq said:

I don't know too much english but I'll get a try in purpose to reply Guardiola's Way (if you can teach me some things and words in your language I'll apreciate that). The first  tactic it's the 2010/2011 commonly used  in many matches and the other ones are the try to reply the 3-4-3 from season 2011/2012 against Villareal, Barcelona scored five goals in that match. My AM and my IF have "gets into oposition area". The only problem I have it's the Xavi role because my AM it's my "Pichichi" and performs creating chances and taking chances. I don't know how to choose between RPM or CM because Xavi was the heart of that build up phase, definitely it's not DLP because this role have the instruction "hold position" and Xavi roams a lot. But Xavi didn't have awesome physical atributes, because he didn't run like Kanté, he always complete triangles with other players. 

https://www.guidetofm.com/tactics/choosing-roles-duties

I took some information of that web and I think that Xavi and Messi give us more than just passes and dribbles.

Any player instructions on the players in the tactics

[pelidaaq]

I want to know how do you manage with the Xavi role. I try with a CM (S) but I think it´s Centalmidfielder in automatic because Xavi helps to build up the ball and sometimes he is in the same line with Busquets, sometimes he is the first pass option to playing safe and sometimes he tryes "stretchin play?"(is this off ball movement?= for me it's desmarque) like the first goal agains Real Madrid. That match ends 5-0. 

 

Here its my first tactic. 

PPM:

SK (A): Tries to play way out of trouble

BPD (D) : Tries to play way out of trouble, marks opponent tightly

CWB (S): Gets forward whenever is possible, hugs line, run with ball down his side, plays one-twos

DLP(D): Comes deep to get the ball, likes to switch the ball to other flank, 

CM (S):  Comes deep to get the ball,likes to switch the ball to other flank, tries killer ball often, plays one-twos, dictates tempo. Could be arrives late into opposition area

AP (A): tries killer ball often, plays one-twos, dictates tempo, likes to switch the ball to other flank

IF (S): gets into opposition area, places shots, move into channels, likes to try to beat offside trap, plays one-twos

AM(S): tries killer ball often, plays one-twos, dictates tempo, gets into opposition area, places shots

4-1-5-0 MC Abierto - Personalizada .fmf

[Czarus]

2 hours ago, pelidaaq said:

Here its my first tactic. 

PPM:

SK (A): Tries to play way out of trouble

BPD (D) : Tries to play way out of trouble, marks opponent tightly

CWB (S): Gets forward whenever is possible, hugs line, run with ball down his side, plays one-twos

DLP(D): Comes deep to get the ball, likes to switch the ball to other flank, 

CM (S):  Comes deep to get the ball,likes to switch the ball to other flank, tries killer ball often, plays one-twos, dictates tempo. Could be arrives late into opposition area

AP (A): tries killer ball often, plays one-twos, dictates tempo, likes to switch the ball to other flank

IF (S): gets into opposition area, places shots, move into channels, likes to try to beat offside trap, plays one-twos

AM(S): tries killer ball often, plays one-twos, dictates tempo, gets into opposition area, places shots

4-1-5-0 MC Abierto - Personalizada .fmf 43.67 kB · 2 downloads

how are your results?

[pelidaaq]

I' ve  been directing Celta de Vigo for four seasons. The first season I only win the King's Cup, the second one League and Cup, the third one League, Cup and UCL; and the four one is still played.

[andre62]

@pelidaaq Can you share the 3 cm's tactic please?

[zlatanera]

5 hours ago, pelidaaq said:

I want to know how do you manage with the Xavi role. I try with a CM (S) but I think it´s Centalmidfielder in automatic because Xavi helps to build up the ball and sometimes he is in the same line with Busquets, sometimes he is the first pass option to playing safe and sometimes he tryes "stretchin play?"(is this off ball movement?= for me it's desmarque) like the first goal agains Real Madrid. That match ends 5-0. 

Xavi's a playmaker. Everything ran through him in midfield. Most likely DLP-Su in the CM position, perhaps a RPM. 

Your point about "Stretching the play" - if we're understanding each other then yeah, it's related to Off The Ball. Which is a highlighted attribute for both of the playmaker roles I mentioned (whereas DLP-De uses Positioning instead).

[pelidaaq]

@andre62I upload my two tactics of 3-1-3-3. I hope you help me to analize those tactics to decide which of them are the best option for the game,

@pauly15 please upload your tactic because I want to know your each player instruction.

@zlatanera I think so, the playmaker job depends on your player atributes, so if you have a player in a playmaker role but he doesn't have the ideal atributes to do that role he won't be able to play like a playmaker. The DLP (D) or (S) role have the instruction of HOLD POSITION, so  Xavi didn't do that because he roams a lot of position. He didn't was a RPM because he doesn't have enough physical atributes to do that. It's true that he cover a lot of space in a match like 10 km but he cover that terrain walking not running like Kanté.

 

In these scene, Xavi comes deep to get the ball and build up the ball up the pitch. He scores a goal like plays one-twos and intelligente movemente. If he was a DLP he wont be able to do that because this role have the option HOLD POSITION. If he was a roaming playmaker he will leave more holes in formation and mark thighly his opponents. He applied some defensive pressure in this scene. I believe that Xavi was a CM in support or automatic duty. Because he have a free movement in some moments in the match but he provide some defensive cover in some moments. The RPM doesn't provide that cover. Xavi also play safe and RPM role doesn't do that.

3-1-3-3-0 MC Abierto - Personalizada .fmf 3-1-3-3-0 MC Abierto 2.fmf

[zlatanera]

@pelidaaq yeah the “Hold Position” TI on DLP-Su doesn’t seem to be too restrictive though, because Su duties are the most affected by the team mentality whereas the De duty is a lot more static. My DLP-Su in my Lyon team often ended up on the edge of the box and got about 5 goals a season without any traits to get forward. I’ve seen the Xavi role replicated with DLP-Su, traits (dictates tempo, plays one-twos, comes deep perhaps but not tries killer balls), and low Flair attribute (to get his simplistic style of play). But I understand your reasoning too

[pelidaaq]

@zlatanera Can you share your tactic please? I mean upload your tactic file. 

[CJ_Randell]

Am I the only one who can’t get half backs to work? My centre backs split but my half back doesn’t drop into the space when I have possession. Tried playing with wing backs in line with the DM, at FB position. I’ve used a HB along with a Regista as two DM’s. He still joins attacks in a midfield position. 

[zlatanera]

9 hours ago, pelidaaq said:

@zlatanera Can you share your tactic please? I mean upload your tactic file. 

Well my tactic I mentioned is a Leonardo Jardim recreation, so not what this thread is really about. I was just stating that DLP-Su isn't as static as the Hold Position PI might suggest. 

And when I referred to the Xavi role being recreated partially by giving the right traits and attributes, I was referring to this tactic, which I have used a lot on FM17 and 18 to great success:

 

3 hours ago, CJ_Randell said:

Am I the only one who can’t get half backs to work? My centre backs split but my half back doesn’t drop into the space when I have possession. Tried playing with wing backs in line with the DM, at FB position. I’ve used a HB along with a Regista as two DM’s. He still joins attacks in a midfield position. 

From my understanding he's only meant to drop between the CBs in the buildup phase, after that he pushes into the DM position and the CBs tuck in again. 

[pelidaaq]

@pauly15 can you upload your tactic file?

[TiMOVELi]

On 09/06/2019 at 00:30, zlatanera said:

Well my tactic I mentioned is a Leonardo Jardim recreation, so not what this thread is really about. I was just stating that DLP-Su isn't as static as the Hold Position PI might suggest. 

And when I referred to the Xavi role being recreated partially by giving the right traits and attributes, I was referring to this tactic, which I have used a lot on FM17 and 18 to great success:

 

From my understanding he's only meant to drop between the CBs in the buildup phase, after that he pushes into the DM position and the CBs tuck in again. 

@zlatanera Have you managed to get this to work on FM19? I've looked at the @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!'s Invincible tactic as well as this one and seems near enough impossible to reproduce the style of play or the kind of results when transferred on to this years version. 

[zlatanera]

5 hours ago, TiMOVELi said:

@zlatanera Have you managed to get this to work on FM19? I've looked at the @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!'s Invincible tactic as well as this one and seems near enough impossible to reproduce the style of play or the kind of results when transferred on to this years version. 

Haven’t tried it. Went back to FM18 because I was tired of all the Mac issues

[pelidaaq]

Si sus defensas andan mal por alto, entrenar este aspecto para no sufrir con balones largos y si sus defensas son muy lentos (< 12) entrenarlos en velocidad o reducir la línea defensiva.

Armen bien sus jugadas de córner de ataque y defensa que de esos aspectos, no me he ocupado en esta táctica.

 

Jugadas preferidas*

PCI(A): Intenta sacar el balón jugado

DCT (D): Intenta sacar el balón jugado, marca muy de cerca al rival

CRC (S): Sube en cuanto  puede, corre con el balón por su banda (I o D), se pega a banda, hace paredes *

MCI (D): Intenta sacar el balón jugado, intenta pases largos, intenta cambiar el balón a la otra banda, intenta pases definitivos, marca el ritmo, marca muy de cerca al rival *

CM (S): baja a recibir el balón, intenta cambiar el balón para la otra banda, hace paredes, intenta pasar el balón, marca el ritmo

OAD (S): baja a recibir el balón, hace paredes, intenta pases definitivos, marca el ritmo

MP (S): baja a recibir el balón, se mete al área rival, hace paredes, intenta pases definitivos, coloca los tiros, marca el ritmo *, intenta regatear al portero*

DLI (S): Recorta hacia adentro desde ambas bandas, coloca los tiros, se mueve entre líneas, se mete al área rival, intenta romper el fuera de juego*, intenta regatear al portero*, hace paredes*

 

If your defenses have little jumping range, train this aspect to avoid suffering with long balls and if your defenses are too slow (<12) to train them in speed or reduce the line of commitment.

I made a good combination of their attacking and defense corner plays, which, in those themes, I have not dealt with in this tactic.

 

PPM:

SK (A): Tries to play way out of trouble

BPD (D) : Tries to play way out of trouble, marks opponent tightly

CWB (S): Gets forward whenever is possible, hugs line, run with ball down his wing (R or L), plays one-twos*

HB(D): likes to switch the ball to other flank, tries to play way out of trouble, try killer passes often, dictates tempo, shoots from distance, marks opponent tightly*

CM (S):  Comes deep to get the ball, likes to switch the ball to other flank, tries killer ball often, plays one-twos, dictates tempo

AP (S): Comes deep to get the ball, tries killer ball often, plays one-twos, dictates tempo

AM(S): Comes deep to get the ball, tries killer ball often, plays one-twos, gets into opposition area, places shots, dictates tempo*, like to round keeper*

 IF (S): Cuts inside from both wings, gets into opposition area, places shots, move into channels, plays one-twos likes to try to beat offside trap*,play one-twos*, like to round keeper*

*Opcional *Optional

 

Barcelona 2010-2011.fmf Netherlands 1974.fmf

[pelidaaq]

@Rashidi what do you think about these tactics? Recently I changed the AP (S) in am position for a AaP (A) in midfield. The idea is provide width with wide players (for that reason I have my IF with stay wider instruction) and with the three midfielders create game, create and explote spaces. For that reason I suggested the PPM for all of my 5 midfield roles ( IF, AP, CM,AM) in porpuse to create spaces for these three midfielders. And in some moments of the game. The IF will break the line with the movement into channels or it's unnecessary to teach them that movement?

I have a much higher line of engagement and the line of pressing in higher. I try this in purpose to have more space to attack with my players. If I play with a line of pressing much higher I lose meters to exploits space between CB and FB. What do you think?