Adverts on ingame hoardings and the EULA

[4Site]

wonder how much resources was given to coding this in, after all the bugs that sneaked through to the final version of game, nice to see SI have the priorities right.

[TeeWee]

Thing is though, it's in the EULA, so by installing the game, you are giving them permission.

:sigh:

I know it's in the EULA.I'm not arguing any legal issue (assuming that SI have done their homework I can't win this argument in that sense). I'm saying that SI ought to (morally speaking) have made this an optional feature. A single player game, where the ads are at best just some nice dynamic eye-candy, has no business accessing the net and sending information (however anonymous it is) about my machine/behaviour without me being able to shut it off. And no: firewalling or playing off line are not the measures I should be needing to take.

It's in the EULA, so it's ok to do this is simply not good enough. If SI is really convinced this is a good feature, why not make it opt-in (or a bit worse, opt-out). Most players would use it. And it should have been clear that at least a minor but vocal group would take offense to this feature, so why not cater to them as well? In these days, any application which "secretly" and without reason sends information "home" will be suspect to this group. I think it's sloppy that SI forgot about this group.

[rusty_u]

I'm not saying it's OK, I'm just saying that they do have permission.

Personally I would prefer to opt out.

[GillsMan]

:sigh:

I know it's in the EULA.I'm not arguing any legal issue (assuming that SI have done their homework I can't win this argument in that sense). I'm saying that SI ought to (morally speaking) have made this an optional feature. A single player game, where the ads are at best just some nice dynamic eye-candy, has no business accessing the net and sending information (however anonymous it is) about my machine/behaviour without me being able to shut it off. And no: firewalling or playing off line are not the measures I should be needing to take.

It's in the EULA, so it's ok to do this is simply not good enough. If SI is really convinced this is a good feature, why not make it opt-in (or a bit worse, opt-out). Most players would use it. And it should have been clear that at least a minor but vocal group would take offense to this feature, so why not cater to them as well? In these days, any application which "secretly" and without reason sends information "home" will be suspect to this group. I think it's sloppy that SI forgot about this group.

If they make it optional, nobody would have it, and they wouldn't be able to charge any where near as much for advertisers to advertise. And that would defeat the point of putting it in the game in the first place.

[TeeWee]

If they make it optional, nobody would have it, and they wouldn't be able to charge any where near as much for advertisers to advertise. And that would defeat the point of putting it in the game in the first place.

You're a cynic! Whereas I accuse SI of incompetence in this matter, you're actually saying out loud that SI realize that IGA is a rubbish and unwanted "feature" and therefore are unable to make it optional because that would hurt their income position from the ads.

Wow.

[GillsMan]

You're a cynic! Whereas I accuse SI of incompetence in this matter, you're actually saying out loud that SI realize that IGA is a rubbish and unwanted "feature" and therefore are unable to make it optional because that would hurt their income position from the ads.

Wow.

Tbf, I'm sure SI and Sega are realistic about it. No-one actually likes advertising - who enjoys the fact that we have to watch an ad break in between and during programmes? Who likes the fact that their team's kit is adorned by sponsorship? Who actually finds Google sponsored links useful? And so on.

Nobody likes IGA, but I'd be surprised if more games don't have more advertising in them. This is the Communications Age and companies are trying to talk to us in all sorts of different ways. This is one of them.

[Johnnyyen]

But firewalling fm.exe = no net connection as far as it's concerned anyway.

For now. The way things are going, i can see FM 11 preventing us to firewalling FM.

[michaeltmurrayuk]

Is this part of why it takes a lot longer than prior versions preparing a match for viewing? If it has to log in, transmit data, download new files/ads then set them up to display it could be part of the reason at least.

It shouldn't do, as the dynamic ads aren't enabled in the demo.

[Andrew_]

SI/SEGA can do whatever they want because it won't stop people buying their games. DRM, ADs, etc.. and it will just get worse next year.

Want them to stop? Stop buying FM. Drop the sales - they have to start listening to the supposed fans they love so much and the game will get better.

[JonPaulWild]

Yup, thats right, SI and IGA are essentially the New World Order, thus spying on you via Football Manager 2009 to set the wheels in motion for global domination.

I hope everyones tin foil hat is fitting well...

Or on the otherhand, IGA are trying to analyse the effectiveness of their service/product through the collection of analytics from the way in which you click on the adverts. Crazy idea isn't it...?

What I'm afraid of is how this will evolve over time.

It's not impossible whilst the game is processing data that you get adverts appearing on the screen, or other placements within the game.

I think this is the first step of many...

If SI/Sega want to go down the route of IGA in its product then I'm not interested in it - and I don't buy PC games that use such technology.

I understand why websites use advertising, and I accept that although for security issues I do use adblock and no script which block alot of the stuff.

I have no intention of clicking any advert links.

[michaeltmurrayuk]

If they make it optional, nobody would have it, and they wouldn't be able to charge any where near as much for advertisers to advertise. And that would defeat the point of putting it in the game in the first place.

Alternatively, if they did make it optional then you'd possibly be able to charge more for Y people who want/aren't bothered about ads and may click on them, rather than X people being forced to see the ads, but never clicking on them. (I didn't even realise they were clickable until reading this thread).

An interesting question is what the payment method is, per click, per purchase, or mins viewed? I don't know about other people but I'm not always actively looking at the FM window when playing, and tend to leave the game running whilst doing other things.

[ookie]

I'm not really sure what sort of a response you're after ookie? We know what is being traced, we know how it works. We know why it's in there (money), I'm not really sure what an SI/Sega response would add?

Anything.

"We appreciate your concerns, but here is the facts of what this is about" would be nice.

The reason i'm ****y about the silence is because all that says to me is that SI know they've done a wrong'un and havent got the balls to say anything about it.

[GillsMan]

Alternatively, if they did make it optional then you'd possibly be able to charge more for Y people who want/aren't bothered about ads and may click on them, rather than X people being forced to see the ads, but never clicking on them. (I didn't even realise they were clickable until reading this thread).

No, you wouldn't be able to make it more profitable by making the IGA optional. By making it optional, you're reducing the number of people who may see your ad/click on your ad. An advertiser would pay more to reach 100% of FM's audience than, say, 5% (bare in mind, if it's optional and there's no incentive to choose "yes" to the ads, hardly anyone would choose it).

[GillsMan]

Anything.

"We appreciate your concerns, but here is the facts of what this is about" would be nice.

The reason i'm ****y about the silence is because all that says to me is that SI know they've done a wrong'un and havent got the balls to say anything about it.

Can't say I agree with you chap, but you're entitled to your view I suppose.

[Pope of Pot, King of Nothi]

No, you wouldn't be able to make it more profitable by making the IGA optional. By making it optional, you're reducing the number of people who may see your ad/click on your ad. An advertiser would pay more to reach 100% of FM's audience than, say, 5% (bare in mind, if it's optional and there's no incentive to choose "yes" to the ads, hardly anyone would choose it).

Maybe the incentive could be giving regens from your youth academy 10% more PA!

[tony1]

Got a nice little test for this now. Will it work ?

My PC has a multi system boot on it carefully partitioned.

I can choose which OS I want to run at start, so I put FM on my wifes partition ( in Russian, with a full Russian OS)

If it only reads my IP then I will get all adds from Leeds area, if it goes any deeper we shall see what comes up.

Might be interesting to see what adds I get

[TeeWee]

Tbf, I'm sure SI and Sega are realistic about it. No-one actually likes advertising - who enjoys the fact that we have to watch an ad break in between and during programmes? Who likes the fact that their team's kit is adorned by sponsorship? Who actually finds Google sponsored links useful? And so on.

Nobody likes IGA, but I'd be surprised if more games don't have more advertising in them. This is the Communications Age and companies are trying to talk to us in all sorts of different ways. This is one of them.

But the funny thing is, I seem to recall that SI has supposedly partnered with IGA to incorporate a more realistic context based ads in the game. So SI either believes that the option will actually add to the experience and trust the players to activate it, or it does not believe this is the case and thus forces it upon us.

And actually, even if SI or IGA say it's more realistic to have ads served by IGA, it's actually not. What does my location have to do with the ads shown in a MLS match (edit: and me not being from the US)? I mean, shouldn't the ads be triggered by the location of the match and the origins of the competing teams instead of the origins of the manager? :shakes head:

[JonPaulWild]

But the funny thing is, I seem to recall that SI has supposedly partnered with IGA to incorporate a more realistic context based ads in the game. So SI either believes that the option will actually add to the experience and trust the players to activate it, or it does not believe this is the case and thus forces it upon us.

And actually, even if SI or IGA say it's more realistic to have ads served by IGA, it's actually not. What does my location have to do with the ads shown in a MLS match (edit: and me not being from the US)? I mean, shouldn't the ads be triggered by the location of the match and the origins of the competing teams instead of the origins of the manager? :shakes head:

That's a point I made a while back when people were mentioning how realistic adverts would be in the game around the pitch, but in the reality of FM09 it wil not be realistic at all.

If I'm playing a Chinese match or Korean league, I will get adverts in that language surely to be considered realistic? But from what we're reading it looks like I'll get adverts served to me by location or other thing, so I look forward to seeing a local brand product in my area being advertised on a Korean football match in Fm09. *sarcasm*

Maybe we can contact advertisers who advertise in FM that there ads are not welcome?

[Ljuba82]

Got a nice little test for this now. Will it work ?

My PC has a multi system boot on it carefully partitioned.

I can choose which OS I want to run at start, so I put FM on my wifes partition ( in Russian, with a full Russian OS)

If it only reads my IP then I will get all adds from Leeds area, if it goes any deeper we shall see what comes up.

Might be interesting to see what adds I get

...but IP is same for that computer whatever OS you are using.

I think that SI clearly have to say what does the system do!!!

[Super Bladesman]

Anything.

"We appreciate your concerns, but here is the facts of what this is about" would be nice.

The reason i'm ****y about the silence is because all that says to me is that SI know they've done a wrong'un and havent got the balls to say anything about it.

Or... they're madly breaking their necks trying to get a patch ready by Friday, after having only found out last week when the demo that a bunch of old graphics cards couldn't start the game, that mass statistics showed there were problems with injuries and that somehow there was a text duplication issue... and so on...

[Pope of Pot, King of Nothi]

I've been a developer, and had deadlines. It sucks so much, because there's a lot to do, not enough manpower to do it, and people are hollering at you non stop. It's an adrenaline rush much akin to being a formula one race car driver, right?

[SlayerX]

...but IP is same for that computer whatever OS you are using.

Not if you're using a proxy ip or using software that is able to "hide" your ip address.

[ookie]

Or... they're madly breaking their necks trying to get a patch ready by Friday, after having only found out last week when the demo that a bunch of old graphics cards couldn't start the game, that mass statistics showed there were problems with injuries and that somehow there was a text duplication issue... and so on...

problems which shouldnt have been in the demo in the first place.

Miles still had time to go on Setanta news today plugging how great the game is, despite all these problems, by the way

[Andrew_]

Or... they're madly breaking their necks trying to get a patch ready by Friday, after having only found out last week when the demo that a bunch of old graphics cards couldn't start the game, that mass statistics showed there were problems with injuries and that somehow there was a text duplication issue... and so on...

If you're going to reply to people you should really know what you're talking about and not just read a press release from Miles.. It's not all old cards that can't start the game. Some above min spec can't start the game and some can't run 3D... so maybe have a read beforehand

[GillsMan]

problems which shouldnt have been in the demo in the first place.

Miles still had time to go on Setanta news today plugging how great the game is, despite all these problems, by the way

You do realise that Miles is the Studio Director (i.e. PR guy) and not a developer, right?

[ookie]

yes i do.

i also know "How great miles is and the rest of the SI team for their brilliant customer service"

apart from when customers are genuinely concerned about something, it seems

[dpwoodford]

The fix to the tracking problem is to have your firewall block the executable.

[bigalp]

You do realise that Miles is the Studio Director (i.e. PR guy) and not a developer, right?

Which is precisely why he, or a lackey, should be here, relating to the public.

[TeeWee]

The fix to the tracking problem is to have your firewall block the executable.

No. The tracking problem shouldn't even have existed in the first place. It's like subscribing to the newspaper and having the paper boy stand in front of your house peering through the window to check when you are reading the paper. Yes, I can close the curtain to stop him from looking inside, but why is the paper boy looking through my window at all?

[GillsMan]

No. The tracking problem shouldn't even have existed in the first place. It's like subscribing to the newspaper and having the paper boy stand in front of your house peering through the window to check when you are reading the paper. Yes, I can close the curtain to stop him from looking inside, but why is the paper boy looking through my window at all?

So you don't use Google searches then I take it?

[JonPaulWild]

So you don't use Google searches then I take it?

You're comparing coffee to a carpet.

If I buy Fm for around £30 I expect there to be no advertising it it and my privacy issues respected because I've already paid for such product.

With Google I have not paid them a penny but their service is there to use for all, but they do advertise and collect and store date it would seem - I have no problem with that because I'm using their service which is free.

If FM was free - then I'd have no problem with IGA.

[TeeWee]

So you don't use Google searches then I take it?

Oh, please. I know you're intelligent, so stop being purposefully obtuse. Being online by definition means you leave some form of footprint, because it's necessary on a technical level. Besides, it's free for the user, so some form of advertising and tracking is to be expected.

A single player game bought in a box is a whole different ballpark. It's unexpected for this type of software and if it's not necessary for the game to function, than it should be an option. You too admitted the feature is unwanted at best.

My point: FM should not be phoning home while running. I know upping firewall settings will kill the IGA-bit, but FM should not have made it necessary for me to do so in the first place. It has no business doing so. (yes, I know it's in the EULA, etc etc. The point is not should not in a legal sense, but in a moral sense)

[Selleckta]

What a pathetic overreaction to such a minor thing by so few people.

I suppose I can understand why some are finding an issue with this in principle, but in reality the unqualified paranoia when we know exactly what happens, and how, is laughable. This kind of thing happens all the time nowadays, I'd almost go as far as to say it's part of modern life, and for people to react so extremely about it featuring in a computer game, which otherwise should be enjoyed is quite disturbing.

People should try and chill out and maybe just enjoy playing the game a little. Does this all really matter? really?

[Guyatwork37]

You can't claim something is sneaky because "they place it at the end of the EULA". It would be sneaky if they never mentioned it at all.

It wouldn't make a difference if it was at the end, middle or beginning of the EULA becuase 99.5% of people never read it. If one guy didn't post about it, none of you would have known and none of you would be complaining so much.

At least they let you know somewhere. Websites gather much more information about you and they never mention it anywhere, so take your fight up with them first.

This is the same type of "the sky is falling" attitude that makes kids such damn pussies these days.

[Guyatwork37]

Double Post Fail

[treble_yell_:-)]

Fail post period

If your fine with it, don't post in the thread, you're trolling, kindly go play in traffic .

[Guyatwork37]

If your fine with it, don't post in the thread, you're trolling, kindly go play in traffic .

OMFG you're so right. I shouldn't take my valid argument about the IGA and EULA and post it in the EULA and IGA thread. You have brought nothing to this thread.

But hey, if you complain more it will go away.

[GillsMan]

Oh, please. I know you're intelligent, so stop being purposefully obtuse. Being online by definition means you leave some form of footprint, because it's necessary on a technical level. Besides, it's free for the user, so some form of advertising and tracking is to be expected.

A single player game bought in a box is a whole different ballpark. It's unexpected for this type of software and if it's not necessary for the game to function, than it should be an option. You too admitted the feature is unwanted at best.

My point: FM should not be phoning home while running. I know upping firewall settings will kill the IGA-bit, but FM should not have made it necessary for me to do so in the first place. It has no business doing so. (yes, I know it's in the EULA, etc etc. The point is not should not in a legal sense, but in a moral sense)

I get your point, and I wasn't making a point. It's just I find it a little odd that you're happy when it happens on Google, but not when it happens on FM. Don't get me wrong, I understand your distinction, it's just that a lot of the objections come from a moral "protect my privacy" perspective, when in fact it all comes down to the fact that you've paid for FM and don't expect IGA to be there.

Now, I don't think that's an unreasonable POV, and as you said, I have agreed that the feature is not likely to be wanted by most. At the risk of sounding patronising, I think the biggest problem with this is: "change". This is new, for FM at least (IGA has been in games for years), and people don't like that. I'm not belittling anybody's concerns, because I understand your point, but I don't think it's anything to be worried/concerned/angry about personally.

Advertising is all around us and, trust me, it will find ever new ways of worming its way into your life.

[SuperMeppen]

The advertisements does seem to be provided by 3rd parties. Here is an expanded quote from the EULA. It's at the very bottom of the EULA in case anyone wants to find it in their game.

This is from the IGA site:

I would love to know how anyone could justify how having adverts 'enhances the realism' of the game. How has ever played FM and thought 'I really wish there were some advertising hoardings, real ones I can click on and stuff!" It's deplorable, really, especially as this comes with no benefit whatsoever to the consumer (i.e. it isn't costing us any less) who has to put-up with this crap. The "solution" of not being connected to the internet is also poor - I'm sure many people like to play in windowed-mode whilst surfing in the background and stuff.

Poor-form, SI. Guess it shows how corporate they've become.

[arfaern]

You can't claim something is sneaky because "they place it at the end of the EULA". It would be sneaky if they never mentioned it at all.

It wouldn't make a difference if it was at the end, middle or beginning of the EULA becuase 99.5% of people never read it. If one guy didn't post about it, none of you would have known and none of you would be complaining so much.

Are you saying that it is OK that the users that don't/haven't read the EULA don't know about IGA and the permissions they are giving to IGA on their PC. That's the reason why it is sneaky, it is buried at the back of the EULA which 99,99% of users will not read and SEGA knows that is the only way they can get away with it. Putting it up on the box, or as a warning during install saying "we are about to install IGA on you machine which collects info etc." then that would not be sneaky. Then every user which is installing the game would be aware of what he is allowing.

The purpose of it in the EULA wherever with all the legal mumbo-jumbo is to hide it from the average user.[\b]

At least they let you know somewhere. Websites gather much more information about you and they never mention it anywhere, so take your fight up with them first.

Websites collect only information that is there because it is necesery for their functionality, you IP address/browser version/OS version/domain/culture/ISP info/etc. is all need for them to provide exact content to you as the user. FM does not need any such information to provide its functionality except displaying adds, therefore does not add any additional benefit to the user by using such information collection.

This is the same type of "the sky is falling" attitude that makes kids such damn pussies these days.

If me speaking against something I believe is wrong makes me a pussy then I am one proud pussy.

[arfaern]

I get your point, and I wasn't making a point. It's just I find it a little odd that you're happy when it happens on Google, but not when it happens on FM. Don't get me wrong, I understand your distinction, it's just that a lot of the objections come from a moral "protect my privacy" perspective, when in fact it all comes down to the fact that you've paid for FM and don't expect IGA to be there.

Now, I don't think that's an unreasonable POV, and as you said, I have agreed that the feature is not likely to be wanted by most. At the risk of sounding patronising, I think the biggest problem with this is: "change". This is new, for FM at least (IGA has been in games for years), and people don't like that. I'm not belittling anybody's concerns, because I understand your point, but I don't think it's anything to be worried/concerned/angry about personally.

Advertising is all around us and, trust me, it will find ever new ways of worming its way into your life.

If the mighty Google is doing it, that does not make it very nice and it is not the path everyone including SI should follow.

I'am not using Google as my primary search engine because I disagree with their privacy policy which states that google will store you search queries/IP address/coockies and other info for a period of 18 months. There are plenty of other search engines that give out correct search results my favorite being Cuil.

[SuperMeppen]

Goodness me, what a lot of nonsense some people on here talk.

And as for this comment about SI & Sega getting more money and us lot getting nothing, well... if SI generate more funds, they can spend more money on producing the game, testing it, employing new people, trying new ideas etc., so that we can all get an even better game for 2010.

You really are quite delusional if you think the money SEGA will get from this will just be channeled-back into FM.

[TeeWee]

I get your point, and I wasn't making a point. It's just I find it a little odd that you're happy when it happens on Google, but not when it happens on FM. Don't get me wrong, I understand your distinction, it's just that a lot of the objections come from a moral "protect my privacy" perspective, when in fact it all comes down to the fact that you've paid for FM and don't expect IGA to be there.

Now, I don't think that's an unreasonable POV, and as you said, I have agreed that the feature is not likely to be wanted by most. At the risk of sounding patronising, I think the biggest problem with this is: "change". This is new, for FM at least (IGA has been in games for years), and people don't like that. I'm not belittling anybody's concerns, because I understand your point, but I don't think it's anything to be worried/concerned/angry about personally.

Advertising is all around us and, trust me, it will find ever new ways of worming its way into your life.

Three things:

1. IGA shouldn't be in FM and has no added-value to the product for the end-user

2. End user has no out-of-the-box way to switch of IGA

3. Just because advertising is all around us and getting more intrusive every day, doesn't mean I have to like it.

I don't think we actually disagree too much. For the sake of the argument, I'm putting my point of view a touch stronger than I actually feel (though I really think SI should not have put IGA in the product in a "sneaky" manner). I do wish that SI will patch it into an optional feature soon.

[GillsMan]

TeeWee, I don't think we're disagreeing too much either. I agree, you don't have to like it and if people feel that strongly about it they should definitely voice their opinions.

I can see your point about making the IGA optional, although as I've said before, this would kind of defeat the object, as most people would turn it off (after all, no-one would choose to watch ads given the chouice), and Sega would therefore not be able to sell the advertising space for anywhere near the same kind of money.

I can't disagree with you that the IGA has no added value for the end-user, however I think it's fair to say that it wasn't put in for our benefit. It was put in for the company's benefit - they are a business after all.

[SuperMeppen]

TeeWee, I don't think we're disagreeing too much either. I agree, you don't have to like it and if people feel that strongly about it they should definitely voice their opinions.

I can see your point about making the IGA optional, although as I've said before, this would kind of defeat the object, as most people would turn it off (after all, no-one would choose to watch ads given the chouice), and Sega would therefore not be able to sell the advertising space for anywhere near the same kind of money.

I can't disagree with you that the IGA has no added value for the end-user, however I think it's fair to say that it wasn't put in for our benefit. It was put in for the company's benefit - they are a business after all.

Of course it was put in for SEGA's benefit, but sold to the consumer as 'enhancing realism', which is just not true for anybody who plays a league that isn't their actual country of residence. If they were upfront about it, a lot of people probably wouldn't be as up in arms about it. But instead it's being presented as if this is something people have wanted and should be grateful for, and that deserves the contempt it is getting.

[Ljuba82]

I don't like this whole concept!!!

...but culmination of all is that they say "it makes the game more realistic". Such a stinky, sleezy excuse in purpose of making more and more money. Discusting, I have no words....

I played this game for more than decade...but every year I'm more and more disappointed. This game slowly starts to loose all of it's magic.

[ookie]

you know what, i can;t be bothered anymore

[Pangaea]

This is exactly what I feared when I first heard about ads in FM2009. I asked in the betatesters' forum whether this was limited to SI, SEGA, War Child etc, but didn't get an answer (maybe they didn't notice, maybe they didn't want to answer).

I hate advertising from the deep depths of my soul. This alone is enough for me to not buy the game, even if no 3rd party was involved. That fact 3rd parties are involved, and thus somebody are "looking over my shoulder" means, I'm out of principle, find it very hard to justify me buying FM2009, or any future incarnation with the same "feature".

This is a feature "no" user wants, SI is aware of this, and has therefore put it in behind our backs - for the sole reason of making more money (pretty much what Gillsman has written).

That we can turn this off by not being connected to the internet or by installing a firewall (usually a fair expense right there btw) is not good enough. Neither that it's "hidden" in the EULA. The EULA itself is a bad deal btw. We can't read the EULA before we buy the game, and once we have, we have the option of letting the EULA do whatever it wants with our privacy rights, or not installing the game, and thus wasting our money.

(We have to open the box, put the CD/DVD in the drive before we can read the EULA, and once we have, we can't return the game).

Admittedly SI/SEGA isn't the worst in the class, and Steam is less intrusive than SecuROM etc. But that doesn't make this okay. Just because others are breaking moral standards doesn't mean I should (even if to a lesser degree).

This is very, very, very disappointing by SI. I have bought the game since I was a wee kid and had it on floppies. This life-long devotion is now very likely to end.

It's sad to see SI are putting profits over quality on this issue. Clearly not the right way to go. Most will probably not care. But if enough long-time fans stop buying FM, and spreading the word around about it, this is sure to have some consequences long-term.

[ookie]

prepare to bear to brunt pangaea.

well said btw

[crafty bison]

Bottom line is it's very unimpressive. End of.