Adverts on ingame hoardings and the EULA

[treble_yell_:-)]

It won't. It will collect the information during activation only. At least that's my understanding of it. The information contains no identifiable information either.

your confusing the IGA with the DRM, the DRM apparently only phones home once

[TeeWee]

It won't. It will collect the information during activation only. At least that's my understanding of it. The information contains no identifiable information either.

That's just for the DRM. I'm asking about IGA now...

[Äktsjon Männ]

You don't buy the lost revenue argument? Really? That argument would only stand if NO copies of FM08 were pirated. I'd be extremely surprised if that was the case.

If you go by that logic you have to assume that all the people who pirated it would have bought it if it hadn't been available to download. This assumption however is not correct at all.

There most probably is lost revenue due to piracy. The amount of it however is not directly tied to the number of illegal downloads.

[arfaern]

If you go by that logic you have to assume that all the people who pirated it would have bought it if it hadn't been available to download. This assumption however is not correct at all.

There most probably is lost revenue due to piracy. The amount of it however is not directly tied to the number of illegal downloads.

Agreed. I believe that there are a lot of people that download the game illegally try it out and uninstall it for good. Therefore you can't really tally them in the lost revenue column.

[GillsMan]

That's just for the DRM. I'm asking about IGA now...

Ah, my bad. Apologies.

If you go by that logic you have to assume that all the people who pirated it would have bought it if it hadn't been available to download. This assumption however is not correct at all.

There most probably is lost revenue due to piracy. The amount of it however is not directly tied to the number of illegal downloads.

This is true, I completely agree. But my point was that some revenue is lost due to piracy - and it's not an unreasonable assumption to assume the ingame advertising is, in part, designed to counter the revenue lost by piracy.

It's the way I've argued that more games companies should go: reduce the price of the game + remove all DRM + add ingame advertising = less incentive to pirate games; plus you make money on the advertising subsidising the loss of the inevitable piracy that will still occur and you subsidise the lower box price.

[TeeWee]

It's the way I've argued that more games companies should go: reduce the price of the game + remove all DRM + add ingame advertising = less incentive to pirate games; plus you make money on the advertising subsidising the loss of the inevitable piracy that will still occur and you subsidise the lower box price.

Eeeek! No, this would be a horror scenario. I want less, not more adware on my computer. Brrr....

[canvey!!]

It sounds to me as though this is exactly the same kind of thing that many websites use.

Log on to your average website and they will be able to see your city, country, what pages you view and how long you're on there.

So not much different to surfing the web.

That's a very good point.

I don't think that SI are really tapping into the full potential of the localised and up-to-date power of it. We could have all sorts of adverts in the game, but instead they've gone for the SI websites and affiliates. The Sims 3, for example, will use current movie posters around the virtual town to advertise the films. Not that I want SI to do something like that, it's just that what they have done is very mild: no reason to suspect espionage!

[treble_yell_:-)]

That's a very good point.

I don't think that SI are really tapping into the full potential of the localised and up-to-date power of it. We could have all sorts of adverts in the game, but instead they've gone for the SI websites and affiliates. The Sims 3, for example, will use current movie posters around the virtual town to advertise the films. Not that I want SI to do something like that, it's just that what they have done is very mild: no reason to suspect espionage!

The FM09 and FMl hoardings in the demo are place holders afaik, the ads will be in the retail version

[saberhagen83]

If you go by that logic you have to assume that all the people who pirated it would have bought it if it hadn't been available to download. This assumption however is not correct at all.

There most probably is lost revenue due to piracy. The amount of it however is not directly tied to the number of illegal downloads.

Exactly. Not to mention there are pirates that actually do buy some of the stuff they DL. One downloaded copy isn't as easy as one lost sale. It's quite hard to say how much they actually loose, who of them would have not bought it anyway, who got it just cause it's free (downloading, playing but not buying) and who actually has bought it.

[Pope of Pot, King of Nothi]

A lot of people download music to see if they like it, and then go and buy the music because they like the warm and fuzzy feeling that comes with owning the cd, the cd case and the booklet!

[McMaster#28]

I think the a lot more people don't though

[theboydonegood]

i think SI have somewhat lost the plot now having being drifting further and further away from the fans orientated developer they started as for a while now, this along with the DRM leaves a somewhat sour taste to be honest.

[pouncer]

3) Having adds in FM which you have bought is like having your new car painted with Coca-Cola ads and paying full price for it.

That is a very good point. The only argument I can think of which would counter it, is the credit crunch one. If less people will buy it, they'll make less profit, so one way to make up for that loss of profit, is to put some advertising in? I don't really know anything about how it all works, but on a basic level that'd make sense to me.

I've got no problem with it though, as long as it doesn't disrupt gameplay. They're hardly going to use this in a negative way, which would effect the player?

We need to remember that SI are trying to sell copies, they arn't fighting against us for goodness sake!

[Andyprime]

are they so unsure 09 will sell they have to subsidise with ads?

[earmack]

Why do games companies think people will LIKE adverts being thrown into games? Possibly they are just bluffing or they've seen the sales for the Sims and think everyone wants to live in a virtual ******** world but WITH adverts just like real life . Yay for capitalism.

Edit: SI's developement costs will have gone up (FM Live), that doesn't really justify them throwing adverts into the game. The game is exceptionally expensive as it is (for a spreadsheet), they shouldn't push their luck liek this.

[pouncer]

are they so unsure 09 will sell they have to subsidise with ads?

Hmm, I don't expect so to be honest. I can't think of any other reason, though, but you're probably right, it wouldn't make a great deal of difference.

[arfaern]

are they so unsure 09 will sell they have to subsidise with ads?

I don't believe that, I think it is more of a case let's try it and see if we can get away with it. If we can great more money for us, if we can't we still have the revenue from our 1M copies x 50 € + FML .

[Eduardo]

If this is true then the game should be retailing at a cheaper price than it is.

[TeeWee]

Has there been an official response yet how this system actually works and if it's an optional feature? I'd dislike FM being adware.

[solstar]

No reply but the adverts are a little silly. If they used the adverts as sponsorships for the teams then great but within the 3D engine it's silly and may get clicked by mistake.

[Eduardo]

No reply but the adverts are a little silly. If they used the adverts as sponsorships for the teams then great but within the 3D engine it's silly and may get clicked by mistake.

Maybe we will get Adblock Plus for FM next haha

[Ljuba82]

WTF...why would I always have to break connection just to stop bloody advertisements???

They don't have right to spam us!!!!

No...it surely can't be done this way, it's breaking the law and someone will proove that!!!

[Guyatwork37]

Some of you people are ridiculous. This isn't Sports Interactive the charitable organization to bring games and little to no cost so that you have something to do. This is a damn company we're talking about, and the bottom line is that they are trying to be as profitable as possible. They make an EXCEPTIONAL product that I'm more than happy to pay $40 for every year. They innovate where they can and the produce something that brings countless hours of entertainment to us.

If they want to put some ads on some boards during the highlights of my games, what should we care that much? Are all of you really clicking the match engine repeatedly? I don't see the big issue.

[Pope of Pot, King of Nothi]

I don't think it's so much the ads that people are concerned with, just the 'Big Brother' style tracking. /shrug

[Valenciaingles]

why would you be so bored as to click on the hoardings.

Thats just really silly.

Try playing the game instead!

[Oktober]

I'm just hoping its properly implemented, and as discretely as possible - I remember that skating one where for a week the entire in-game city turned bright yellow with wall to wall "The Simpsons Movie" ads!

I'm slightly concerned that it'll, for example, realise I'm from Scotland and with only one 'Scottish' option plaster every available surface with "Daily Record" in bright red.

[4Site]

Again people seem to jump to SIs defence with the generic, "oh it won't bother me, so let them do it" mentality.

People seem to lack basic principles nowadays, why should they make more money of me, I'm payin full price for the game aren't I?

Considering that its full price for a game thats a mere patch and data update, with very few new features, and they've been doin the same thing since 2004, I should think if anything I deserve that advertisement revenue...

[shrekiejai]

I guess SI isn't going to comment on this and laugh in the shadows for sneaking that in on us?

[soccerfan415]

Wow, paying money to see advertisements? If they want to advertise in game and make money from us for playing a game then release the game for free. I was considering FM09, this has put me right off

[endtime]

You can always set your firewall to block FM from accessing the Internet after activation. But then someone could say that you're depriving advertisers of potential profits, you dirty thief

Anyway, I think that someone at SI or (probably) Sega is getting a bit greedy.

[Super Bladesman]

I like the ad hoardings, it makes the stadiums look more realistic.

I wonder that if SI do make any money off these hoardings, then they will also make that money off the pirated copies as well - which would be quite neat.

[Dirky Diggler]

I think its been stated somewhere on the boards (Possibly DRM thread) That if it causes that much of a problem the IGA and the first time sending of computer info might be turned off, and then in a 2nd patch you given the option whther you want it on or not. Not 100% sure if I read it right, but I too have a problem with paying full price for a game only to be bombarded with ads in the game. However if they could be stadium specific ads, such as big clubs getting big ads small clubs getting local paper ads and them having realistic sponsers on match day, and maybe even having dynamic real sponsers ingame, maybe that would be cool. But them beaming info in and out of my computer I dont thin kis acceptable, when playing multiplayer games you have no option though

[Super Bladesman]

You won't be bombarded by ads - the only ads in the game are the small 'ad hoardings' around the edge of the pitch on match day.

[DaveRH]

For-profit company wanting to make profit shocker.

I really don't see the issue here. If you're worried about being "spied on" over the internet you have far more information stored on your computer which people can get at through your browser.

[KOP_007]

THIS IS IS NO WAY ACCEPTABLE.

Along with DRM, IGA will be the death of FM.

SI have built up years of good will and they are destroying all that with this game.

I am always connected to the internet, I will not turn off my internet to avoide being spammed by a game I have paid for. Hopefully my firewall will clean this mess up.

[bigdaddydave]

Wow, most of us pay for our tv service (even if it's just tv license) yet we still are forced to see ads how is that fair, if we pay our license fees and/or sky etc. should we be forced to not see those ads?

for those who don't like it I will reapeat what I wrote earlier, delete the ads.fmf file, it is linked to the ingame advertising and I presume ads are incorporated into it's xml file so deleteing it at the very least will stop you seeing them, whether it stops the spying is up for debate but I suspect it will and that the data gathering is part of it's xml structure.

[KOP_007]

Wow, most of us pay for our tv service (even if it's just tv license) yet we still are forced to see ads how is that fair, if we pay our license fees and/or sky etc. should we be forced to not see those ads?

Wow, those adverts aren't specifically targeted at you as a result of being spyed on.

[MSCCG]

I'm not worried about the spying and whatever, I'm worried about them taking advantage of this to make more money when we get nothing. I mean I probably will enjoy the dynamic ads and everything, but still...

I don't mind that it's used to possibly subsidize the piracy issue and everything, but if they make more money than expected from the ads, does the price of FM10 come down?

[DJdeMarco]

for those who don't like it I will reapeat what I wrote earlier, delete the ads.fmf file, it is linked to the ingame advertising and I presume ads are incorporated into it's xml file so deleteing it at the very least will stop you seeing them, whether it stops the spying is up for debate but I suspect it will and that the data gathering is part of it's xml structure.

It isn't the ads being there that is the problem. I'm pretty certain that most people like the boards being there, it's just how they work that is the problem.

After years of constant mouse use, my clicking finger sometimes has a mind of its' own and spasms. This results in my browser opening which is not what I want when I'm in the middle of a must-win top of the table clash. There should be an option to have the clicking feature turned off at the very least. I know that I would never want to click on them, so why should I have to endure this "feature". Is it a gift from SI as a thank you for 15 years playing their game which has left me with an uncontrollable twitch in my fingers.

Secondly, it is the sneaky way this was mentioned at the end of the EULA and does not give the option to not have it installed or to stop it transmitting data to and receiving data from the internet. Well, it does, you can turn your internet off. ****ing genius. This is spyware by another name and I don't want it on my machine so won't be buying the game. Which is a shame as, from the demo, it looks pretty good.

Speaking of the demo, I am actually livid that both the adware and DRM were installed as part of it and if any part of that is left behind after uninstalling the demo I may have to send an invoice for having to clean my PC of this unwanted garbage.

[crouchaldinho]

I'm not worried about the spying and whatever, I'm worried about them taking advantage of this to make more money when we get nothing.

Goodness me, what a lot of nonsense some people on here talk.

Anyone would think that SI & Sega had done something incredibly immoral, like stolen our identities or raised the price ofthe game by 100%, the way you guys talk.

All they have done is put some advertising boards around the pitch, which makes the game quite realistic if anything. It just so happens that you can click on them and be taken to a website, which may log details about your country etc. like any normal website does.

And as for this comment about SI & Sega getting more money and us lot getting nothing, well... if SI generate more funds, they can spend more money on producing the game, testing it, employing new people, trying new ideas etc., so that we can all get an even better game for 2010.

[Dirky Diggler]

Wow, most of us pay for our tv service (even if it's just tv license) yet we still are forced to see ads how is that fair, if we pay our license fees and/or sky etc. should we be forced to not see those ads?

for those who don't like it I will reapeat what I wrote earlier, delete the ads.fmf file, it is linked to the ingame advertising and I presume ads are incorporated into it's xml file so deleteing it at the very least will stop you seeing them, whether it stops the spying is up for debate but I suspect it will and that the data gathering is part of it's xml structure.

Goodness me, what a lot of nonsense some people on here talk.

Anyone would think that SI & Sega had done something incredibly immoral, like stolen our identities or raised the price ofthe game by 100%, the way you guys talk.

All they have done is put some advertising boards around the pitch, which makes the game quite realistic if anything. It just so happens that you can click on them and be taken to a website, which may log details about your country etc. like any normal website does.

And as for this comment about SI & Sega getting more money and us lot getting nothing, well... if SI generate more funds, they can spend more money on producing the game, testing it, employing new people, trying new ideas etc., so that we can all get an even better game for 2010.

Yes Dave, its a good point, but, the content we watch on TV (not ads) that is being shown to us, is of additional value to us, we play a license fee but then get to watch millions of pounds worth (Billions if you have sky movies I guess you could argue) SO the ads in between we are watching are paying for the programmes we like. whereas the ads in the game.... actually, I dont even know where Im going with this, someone help me.....

Crouchy, A game we pay full price for shouldnt have ads in it. Unless the ads add something to the game, which they dont, unless they are team specific dynamic ads which I dont think they will be, for example i will be getting localised ads for things to do in Telford/midlands, even if Im managing at the san siro or the nou camp.

[arfaern]

Goodness me, what a lot of nonsense some people on here talk.

Anyone would think that SI & Sega had done something incredibly immoral, like stolen our identities or raised the price ofthe game by 100%, the way you guys talk.

They have done something that is immoral, just because somebody else is doing it, it does not mean its OK. They are charging you for displaying the adds simple as that, which is not nice. You can have shareware which then has adds and etc and it's free or you can have some thing you purchase without adds.

All they have done is put some advertising boards around the pitch, which makes the game quite realistic if anything. It just so happens that you can click on them and be taken to a website, which may log details about your country etc. like any normal website does.

Like I have already stated there is a huge difference between websites and software installed on your computer which stats it will transmit information without informing you about the information nature, content and instances when it has been sent.

There is only a small step for a developer to implement some new information to be sent form your PC (like key strokes in search to find out what your are looking for) and for it to be downloaded through the Steam automatic update without you ever knowing anything about it.

I know this is unlikely to happen, but it such a small effort that I don't think it is impossible that the idea won't popup in someones head at SEGA or IGA to improve the advertising targeting.

And as for this comment about SI & Sega getting more money and us lot getting nothing, well... if SI generate more funds, they can spend more money on producing the game, testing it, employing new people, trying new ideas etc., so that we can all get an even better game for 2010.

Or they can all go to the BMW dealership and buy new X5's

[tony1]

Goodness me, what a lot of nonsense some people on here talk.

All they have done is put some advertising boards around the pitch, which makes the game quite realistic if anything. It just so happens that you can click on them and be taken to a website, which may log details about your country etc. like any normal website does.

.

As far as I can see it is the other way round. The hoardings are targeted BEFORE you click on them, and localised adds are placed there. This is done by reading your IP address then placing the adds for you.

[crouchaldinho]

You might be right about that Tony. I was reading the bit where it says that it will log and transmit data about your interaction with the advertising. It does also say that it will use your IP to work out your location in order to configure the advertising in the first place.

I still don't think it is particularly a big deal though. Like I said before, as soon as you log onto any website, the owner of that site can see this kind of information.

I would suggest to those that are really upset about this a simple method to solve the problem - deny FM access to the Internet.

[KOP_007]

You don't buy the lost revenue argument? Really? That argument would only stand if NO copies of FM08 were pirated. I'd be extremely surprised if that was the case.

You believe that everyone who pirates the game is a 'lost' customer? Think again, son.

[bigdaddydave]

We really need official clarification on this, if it is just reading your IP and sending localised ads then it is no worse than tv ads targeted to your region, if it is more then we will see. If someone who has the game would be kind enough to use the fmf extractor on the disk to extract the ads.fmf and post the xml contents then we will have more info. I stil lsuspect skinners can get around this.

[playmaker]

I understand that people don't like having adverts thrust upon them, but the hysteria in this thread is amazing. It's not like it is particularly obtrusive or interrupts the game. Personally, I would have preferred to see ten to twelve brands bought on board to provide fixed logos for the hoardings and not connect at all, but I'm not going to lose any sleep about it. In fact I find it more disconcerting that Google Mail picks up on certain keywords in an email and plasters ads all over the screen. Those are ads targetted at me specifically, whereas FM is only targetting my region.

A few points:

Greed - If you you think SI are doing this out of greed then I think you want to take a look at this year's version of EHM - except you can't because the pirated copies so far outweighed the purchased copies that SI failed to make any money and had to stop making the game. In-game advertising ensures that even if the game is pirated that revenue from the advertisers still makes it's way to SI.

Sneaky - Did SI really sneak this in? The hoardings were clearly shown in screenshots in early September and SI provided explanation at that time.

Itchy trigger finger - Seriously, you guys are not five any more. You ought to be able to control a mouse.

Spyware - If collecting your IP address makes software spyware then your operating system, internet browser, anti-virus, firewall, office software, Steam and every other game you play are also spyware. FM will collect no personal information and would be in breach of the EULA if it did.

Paying to be advertised to - Er, in what way? The price we pay is the price for the game - the total amount of game you get has not been dimished so why should you pay less.

Immoral - SI are not making more money from you, they are making it from the advertisers. You are being shown ads in their correct context in the game world. SI have broken no laws, been up front about it and you are not out of pocket or inconvenienced in any way.

[Themistofelis]

You can use a spoofer , i bet watching north Korean ads will be very interesting.

[KOP_007]

Greed - If you you think SI are doing this out of greed then I think you want to take a look at this year's version of EHM - except you can't because the pirated copies so far outweighed the purchased copies that SI failed to make any money and had to stop making the game.

LOL!!! I can't believe people are still falling for that!

[playmaker]

LOL!!! I can't believe people are still falling for that!

So are you suggesting that EHM is still secretly made? Or perhaps that SI pulled a profitable product for no reason?

Miles Jacobson has stood ten feet in front of me and explained that they couldn't understand why EHM was so popular, yet they had sold relatively few copies. He told me (and others in the room) that they discovered that the game had been pirated and most of the copies were not legit. They made no money from the game and decided to pull it. He was pretty angry, and used a good few words that he would never use on the forum. You are asking me to believe that he was faking it rather than take it on face value, when I've looked the man in the eye? I have his word for it or your opinion, which am I going to believe.

EHM is admittedly much more niche and far more susceptible to this sort of problem than FM, but SI would be fools not to consider whether it could happen on a larger scale. I doubt it is the only factor in choosing to advertise in this way, but it is an influence.

On the greed issue, SI are not a charity, they are a business and as a customer who wants them to deliver the best game possible every year, if they want to maximise their profits without hitting my pocket then I really can't see what is wrong with that. They have repeatedly put that money back into the company.