Caixa Futebol Academy: Youth Development & Adapting Tactics

[OJ403]

21 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Alright mate. Firstly what a quality thread.

Just a quick question about the deals really. I get why your selling the players, but find the fact that the upfront fee is nothing abit odd, or at least Ive not encountered it before.

Any chance you could explain why? I'm sure its a really good reason, just I can't figure it out.

Cheers

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

7 minutes ago, OJ403 said:

Alright mate. Firstly what a quality thread.

Just a quick question about the deals really. I get why your selling the players, but find the fact that the upfront fee is nothing abit odd, or at least Ive not encountered it before.

Any chance you could explain why? I'm sure its a really good reason, just I can't figure it out.

Cheers

A couple of reasons, really. We've got plenty of money in the bank, so we don't need the revenue right away. The big one is that spreading out the revenue makes Financial Fair Play easier to achieve (as we run at a loss without transfer revenue) and - it's purely anecdotal - but we seem to be able to negotiate larger fees when it's future installments. 

[OJ403]

1 hour ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

A couple of reasons, really. We've got plenty of money in the bank, so we don't need the revenue right away. The big one is that spreading out the revenue makes Financial Fair Play easier to achieve (as we run at a loss without transfer revenue) and - it's purely anecdotal - but we seem to be able to negotiate larger fees when it's future installments. 

Cheers mate. Knew youd be able to explain it. Hadnt considered the ffp at all, I'm usually pretty direct and rather take the money upfront. In fact, the only clauses I usually take are high percentage of next sale and a buy back; explains why I've broke ffp a few times.

Quality advice. Cheers

[zlatanera]

As a huge fan of instalments, both outgoing and incoming, I enjoy seeing someone else use them so much. I started to do it after I got a Norwegian team into a dominant financial position a couple years back and noticed we were paying huge tax bills because of our transfer revenue, I've never really managed a club with FFP issues though. 

I also like to spend using instalments when I need to have a big window. Better to overpay and pay it off over 4 years than miss out on the one guy you really need in the here and now. 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

7 hours ago, zlatanera said:

As a huge fan of instalments, both outgoing and incoming, I enjoy seeing someone else use them so much. I started to do it after I got a Norwegian team into a dominant financial position a couple years back and noticed we were paying huge tax bills because of our transfer revenue, I've never really managed a club with FFP issues though. 

I also like to spend using instalments when I need to have a big window. Better to overpay and pay it off over 4 years than miss out on the one guy you really need in the here and now. 

Yes, the FFP is interesting in this save. Benfica have a huge amount of debt, so high interest costs. That actually comes to an end in he upcoming summer so I am not sure what's going to happen. They've been paying a £100m+ interest only loan. I'm not sure if they're going to repay the full amount next year.

Ah yes, tax is another reason to do it. Large profits are overrated, in comparison to reinvesting or spreading the money out.

We're expanding our stadium now as well, but remain a long way from being anywhere near sustainable.

[zlatanera]

4 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Yes, the FFP is interesting in this save. Benfica have a huge amount of debt, so high interest costs. That actually comes to an end in he upcoming summer so I am not sure what's going to happen. They've been paying a £100m+ interest only loan. I'm not sure if they're going to repay the full amount next year.

Ah yes, tax is another reason to do it. Large profits are overrated, in comparison to reinvesting or spreading the money out.

We're expanding our stadium now as well, but remain a long way from being anywhere near sustainable.

A big expansion? Do you expect to fill it?

I’m always finding stadium improvements seem to hang too much debt around the clubs neck in short term, with Freiburg got a new 35k seater stadium (original is around 25k) with a lot of room for expansion but it’s not likely we’d ever need it all given the size of the city. I didn’t like seeing one of the few debt-free clubs around suddenly have a £30m debt though. 

It did give me an excuse to sign pretty much every 18 year old in the former  Yugoslav countries and loan them out for fees though!

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

On 20/04/2019 at 14:45, MadOnion said:

I wonder how Dantas will do in the RPM role since his flair is quite low (at least on FM19 it is)

You also said said:

Have you considered toying with the 343 total football? It hurts me seeing all that potential in Fernandes being used as an all-around FB. Would love to see you giving it a go.

Something like:

Your idea of pushing Gedson Fernandes up into midfield inspired me.

It's a bit more pragmatic than a 3-4-3 but creates an aggressive 2-3-5 shape in attack.

[denen123]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! Huge fan of your work. The Ajax/Sacchi threads are gems. Hope you never run out of ideas. 

Quick question: if you identify that your Center-backs have cover/stopper qualities, what PPM's do you usually train them on to fully maximize them. At least, what you like to use, not necessarily, the best one  to use, for each type of defender. Hope you can understand my question. Thank you.

[Brian]

I have found your topic about Universality inspiring and it come the closest to Total Football in terms of creating the right players. As I found my way in training the players to become ''Total'', I always struggle to find the right tactics for the players. How do you tackle this? 

[MadOnion]

On 22/04/2019 at 13:15, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Your idea of pushing Gedson Fernandes up into midfield inspired me.

 

How is he performing? I take it he is a bit more aggressive than Luis?
I'd still like to see the 4 of them in midfield on the full-time basis. Since you're an Arsenal fan, how about the W-M formation? Cleon's been using it in this series with great success.

Edited May 3, 2019 by IPS Temp Admin

[MadOnion]

Something isn't right when quoting posts. It has happened again when a huge white space is somehow inherited in the quote.

@herne79 do you think you can help with the formatting? @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! had a similar issue on the previous page.

[herne79]

56 minutes ago, MadOnion said:

Something isn't right when quoting posts. It has happened again when a huge white space is somehow inherited in the quote.

@herne79 do you think you can help with the formatting? @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! had a similar issue on the previous page.

Can't help.  I tried editing your post but it won't get rid of the white space so something's on a wonk.  Sometimes these things just sort themselves out (technology ) but I'll flag it to the board admin in case Gizmo's been fed after midnight again and they need to fetch the water.

[MadOnion]

11 hours ago, herne79 said:

Can't help.  I tried editing your post but it won't get rid of the white space so something's on a wonk.  Sometimes these things just sort themselves out (technology ) but I'll flag it to the board admin in case Gizmo's been fed after midnight again and they need to fetch the water.

Thanks, I can't even edit my own post, which means I can only edit my last post or the markup is broken.

[herne79]

7 hours ago, MadOnion said:

Thanks, I can't even edit my own post, which means I can only edit my last post or the markup is broken.

Should be fixed.  Your quote above looks ok now.  Let me know if there are further problems.

Basically the issue related to copying over HTML that had a hardcoded width and height embedded into it, resulting in an HTML layer that was basically invisible but sitting on "top" of the quote/edit/etc. links.

Whatever that means .

[False9]

Great thread!  Theres something very Sir Alex Ferguson about the way you structured the club, developing the academy and the domestic transfer strategy.

You were also ahead of the game with Felix as he's one of the best young players in Europe now. Have you thought about trying him in a similar role to real life?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

On 22/04/2019 at 20:51, denen123 said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! Huge fan of your work. The Ajax/Sacchi threads are gems. Hope you never run out of ideas. 

Quick question: if you identify that your Center-backs have cover/stopper qualities, what PPM's do you usually train them on to fully maximize them. At least, what you like to use, not necessarily, the best one  to use, for each type of defender. Hope you can understand my question. Thank you.

Good question. I think there is an element of factoring in player attributes, but also considering the team on the whole.

For example, earlier in this save we used Ruben Dias who is aggressive, brave, strong, good in the air and has great leadership so perfect for the stopper role. He was outstanding in our earlier tactical systems, build on strong defence and counter-attack and the dominant diamond, but despite training for years he never improved his technical ability so stopped fitting the system as we became more expansive so was ultimately sold to Inter.

I often use Stopper or Cover duties to cover gaps depending on what's ahead of them.

For example, in the early 4-2-3-1 I used a Stopper behind Krovinovic as I was worried Krovinovic was a bit lightweight so the stopper shut any space there.

The following year, the 3-man shield with Fejsa in the centre meant I had no concern about space so played a flat line.

Always consider your selection in the context of your overall team mentality and shape, as well. As a general rule, I'm more likely to use a Stopper in systems with a more conservative mentality. Standard or below really, as not to make them suicidal in an already aggressive system. If Attacking, then a more Structured shape to keep them back.

I'll also often use cover, just to stagger the defence a bit to create passing triangles. Particularly when playing with a 2-man double pivot ahead of them.

Hope that helps, it's a pretty brief answer to a fairly broad topic!
 

On 22/04/2019 at 21:15, Rooks said:

I have found your topic about Universality inspiring and it come the closest to Total Football in terms of creating the right players. As I found my way in training the players to become ''Total'', I always struggle to find the right tactics for the players. How do you tackle this? 

Thank you. Yes, it's all been built upon the foundations of that early thread. 

Apologies, would you mind clarifying the question? I'm not sure I understand. Most of the thread is about finding the right tactics for the players, but not sure I'm reading that right! 

 

On 22/04/2019 at 22:20, MadOnion said:

 

How is he performing? I take it he is a bit more aggressive than Luis?
I'd still like to see the 4 of them in midfield on the full-time basis. Since you're an Arsenal fan, how about the W-M formation? Cleon's been using it in this series with great success.

It's an interesting one. He's performing reasonably well, but I think I prefer him at right back. I haven't got FM loaded at the moment but I think that this system shoulders quite a lot of attacking responsibility on the advancing midfielders and it suits João Felix extremely well, but I keep finding Fernandes in situations where perhaps Embalo, Jota, Felix or any of the more attacking players would be better suited.

I've got a couple of friendlies left to experiment and I've stalled the transfers of Trincão, Grimaldo and Sousa, as I'm not yet convinced.

As for the W-M, it's a cool shape but not something I'd see the benefit of using in the modern game. In the same way as a Sweeper, the W-M was used at a time where the offside rule meant that attackers needed two outfield opposition players between themselves and the opposition goal, rather than the one we have today which meant the defensive shape was much more efficient. I've not read Cleon's thread and I'm sure he's got it working, but I'd be beyond petrified by a system with one centre back in today's game.

 

11 hours ago, False9 said:

Great thread!  Theres something very Sir Alex Ferguson about the way you structured the club, developing the academy and the domestic transfer strategy.

You were also ahead of the game with Felix as he's one of the best young players in Europe now. Have you thought about trying him in a similar role to real life?

Thank you. Many of the ideas used in running the club originally come from the legendary @SFraser threads. He was a Man Utd fan and undoubtedly took great inspiration from Sir Alex, and pulled it off perfectly 

Yes, it's fantastic to see Felix develop into one of the most exciting players in Europe. I've not seen too much game time, but he seems to be playing behind the striker in an Attacking Midfield role. Depending on what happens with the 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1 could be an interesting option. Stay tuned.

Currently feeling pretty inspired by this superb blog post about Pele and the great Brazil teams, and a lot of the pieces would fit.

Edited April 26, 2019 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[False9]

Ozil - following from @denen123s question about centre backs, I notice you've gone for Ball Playing Defenders. What made you go for that change? elsewhere on the forums the role has been criticised a lot for long balls?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

14 minutes ago, False9 said:

Ozil - following from @denen123s question about centre backs, I notice you've gone for Ball Playing Defenders. What made you go for that change? elsewhere on the forums the role has been criticised a lot for long balls?

Another interesting question, thanks very much. Personally, I love the Ball Playing Defender.

The simple reason I chose it is that we play against a lot of opponents who sit deep and don't press as all, so my centre backs are completely free to bring the ball forward and the ball playing defender role facilitates that as best as possible.

An important disclaimer is that I cannot get them to dribble out of defence with any regularity but when they do it's a very effective way to draw out an opposition midfielder and create a gap to progress.

Regarding the issue with the longer passing. That's true, but the extent varies depending on your overall system. Given we play shorter passing, retain possession and pass out from the back, the passing is already pretty tidy.

This would be the difference, were we to play a typical Central Defender:

In match, we rarely see a long ball. Here are Pinto's passing stats from the Champions League Final.

..and Victor Bobsin's.

 

In fact, with vision, anticipation, decisions and technical ability like Bobsin, I would have no issue whatsoever with a few more direct passes, if they're on.

[axehan1]

Still going strong with my Benfica save.

I have settled on a very strong possessions based tactic that sees us almost strangle the opposition whereby we sit almost entirely on average in the opposition half on a game by game basis.

A very solid 60% possession that also sees us score a very healthy amount of goals.

Almost 3 goals a game spread evenly between the front 3 and the 2 Mezzalas.

Long shot attempts are still an issue when a pass seems the better option.I understand that we are camped in the opposition half 90% of the time but the space always is there for a pass

The last game a routine 4-0 win at home to FC Arouca, exactly what i'm looking for, 65% possession, camped in the opposition half, aggressive closing down and when we win the ball back triangles everywhere.27 shots,16 on target but 10 from outside the box.Maybe i'm being picky,my mezzalas have shoot less often and try risky passes but every now and then they let fly for no reason(is it a mezzala trait??)If a player has a long shot trait then I can't complain if he takes the odd long shot.I'm trying to get some of them to learn traits like refrains from taking long shots and looks for pass rather than score to see if we can "Arsenal" our way and walk the ball into the net.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

21 minutes ago, axehan1 said:

Still going strong with my Benfica save.

I have settled on a very strong possessions based tactic that sees us almost strangle the opposition whereby we sit almost entirely on average in the opposition half on a game by game basis.

A very solid 60% possession that also sees us score a very healthy amount of goals.

Almost 3 goals a game spread evenly between the front 3 and the 2 Mezzalas.

Long shot attempts are still an issue when a pass seems the better option.I understand that we are camped in the opposition half 90% of the time but the space always is there for a pass

The last game a routine 4-0 win at home to FC Arouca, exactly what i'm looking for, 65% possession, camped in the opposition half, aggressive closing down and when we win the ball back triangles everywhere.27 shots,16 on target but 10 from outside the box.Maybe i'm being picky,my mezzalas have shoot less often and try risky passes but every now and then they let fly for no reason(is it a mezzala trait??)If a player has a long shot trait then I can't complain if he takes the odd long shot.I'm trying to get some of them to learn traits like refrains from taking long shots and looks for pass rather than score to see if we can "Arsenal" our way and walk the ball into the net.

Very nice!  How's the Mezzala and Winger combo working out? Never tried that one.

What season are you in?

[axehan1]

Season 21/22,the Mezalla,Winger combo for me works a treat.For instance when I play Felix(Mezzala) and Trincao(Winger) on the left they are a"classic" partnership,Trincao keeps the width while you have Felix with his natural tendancy to get into the box,meanwhile the right handside (depending on who the opposition is/how strong they are)would have Luis as a more withdrawn Mezzala due to his ppm's allowing Embolo to play as an inverted winger due to his natural tendancy to cut inside off of the wing.

 

There are knock on effects depending on who plays in what position for example a more withdrawn Mezzala will allow me to turn a wingbacks duty to attack to keep the width,i'm loving it.

a routine victory in the group stage in Europe.Bale and Ronaldo where hitting from distance.

[Brian]

On 26/04/2019 at 22:24, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Thank you. Yes, it's all been built upon the foundations of that early thread. 

Apologies, would you mind clarifying the question? I'm not sure I understand. Most of the thread is about finding the right tactics for the players, but not sure I'm reading that right! 

Well, I struggle to find the right tactics to the players. In theory, the players are 'total' so they could play any tactic. I still have Donny v/d Beek, Hakim Ziyech and David Neres in my Ajax save 2020 and they are by far my key players in the squad. That's also the point where I struggle. I tried Ziyech in the AMR slot with Treq or IF and in the AM slot as a AM and even in the CM slot as RPM or CM-S+PI's. That's why I read and re-read this topic, but maybe the coin didn't flip the right direction yet in terms of understanding how to find the right tactics for the players. 

Hope this makes the question more clear now. 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

9 hours ago, Rooks said:

Well, I struggle to find the right tactics to the players. In theory, the players are 'total' so they could play any tactic. I still have Donny v/d Beek, Hakim Ziyech and David Neres in my Ajax save 2020 and they are by far my key players in the squad. That's also the point where I struggle. I tried Ziyech in the AMR slot with Treq or IF and in the AM slot as a AM and even in the CM slot as RPM or CM-S+PI's. That's why I read and re-read this topic, but maybe the coin didn't flip the right direction yet in terms of understanding how to find the right tactics for the players. 

Hope this makes the question more clear now. 

My advice would be to start with something simple. Work out how you want to play, given the players you have and build an overall tactic which suits that.

Van de Beek is a classic, intelligent, technical player. Ziyech similar, but more attacking and left footed. Neres is an excellent wide player, either left wing or cutting in from the right.

Look at the rest of the team and see how they can fit in.

Try something simple, like 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 whilst you find your feet and then perhaps try to put your stamp on something more.

[axehan1]

The U19's win the league for the 5th year in a row ensuring the conveyor belt into the first team is steamrolling along

However the Champions League is killing me.

A 1-5 away defeat(undeserved) was way to much to claw back in the second leg.

I will get there in the end.

[axehan1]

Little update,so after 2 seasons of getting knocked out of the 1st knockout round of the Champions League we start season 6 with this demand from the board.

I'm hoping that this is due to our reputation growing in the game.

[axehan1]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal!,any idea what makes a player change from professional to model professional?I've just noticed 2 of my players are now classed as model professional (from professional) without any tutoring.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

1 hour ago, axehan1 said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal!,any idea what makes a player change from professional to model professional?I've just noticed 2 of my players are now classed as model professional (from professional) without any tutoring.

Pure speculation but I've noticed it happen with age. I'm not sure if there's a particular cut-off point for Model Professional - i.e I think there might be for Born Leader, if I remember correctly - or whether it's just that you tutor them to a point where they are professional and then they increase over time to Model Professional through being in a Professional squad. But yea, I've noticed the same thing..

[MadOnion]

I think, in FM (not sure if it was 18 or 17), if a player is tutored by a Model Professional or a Model Citizen, they become professional or perfectionist until the age of 23. After that they become Model Professional/Model Citizen.

In FM19, things are a lot different, since the old tutoring model is gone.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

 

Quick update - you join me at the mid-point of the 2023/24 season, having just retained the World Club Championship and preparing for a second-half of the season competing for a hat-trick of Champions Leagues, and the Euro 2024 with Portugal.

The 4-2-3-1

Those of you following my tactical threads over the years will probably have noticed the influence of the Dutch/Ajax model and then the Barcelona model in my tactical preferences, particularly in the use of 4-3-3 with a 1-2 midfield set up based largely on the logic explained here.

For the past couple of seasons, we've enjoyed great success using an Iniesta-Xavi-Busquets inspired 2-1 setup.

This facilitates very effective buildup play and allows wingbacks to bomb forward, but I've always felt Florentino Luis could play a more advanced role.

Searching for a solution, we've experimented with Dantas in a 6 role with João Felix and Florentino Luis pushing ahead,

As yet, the system has never quite clicked. It's always resulted in excessive attacking responsibility on Florentino Luis or under-utilising João Felix as a box-to-box midfielder.

The 4-2-3-1 gives a number of benefits:

• Florentino Luis moves into midfield, in a role which suits him.
• João Felix oscillates between midfield and attack, giving us an extra man in the attacking line.
• The Dantas - Luis double pivot controls the midfield, recycles possession and frees our wingbacks to move forward.

In many systems, Deeplying Playmaker (Defend) would be a somewhat negative choice of playmaker. However, in the context of an Overload system, Fluid shape, passing Through the Middle and the absence of any individuals on Attack duty, it becomes quite aggressive.

He's going to sit, holding midfield and orchestrating attacking play, with lots of passing options ahead of him.

My personal preference is to play with - at most - one playmaker. This comes from experimenting with the Pep's Barcelona tactic and observing - purely a subjective personal opinion - the team prioritising the more attacking playmaker, altering the way I wanted to play. This means that my Number 10 role is simply Attacking Midfield (Support). The objective is for the Number 10 to act as an all-round attacker, described in this article about the Brazilian 'Ponta de Lança' rather than a specialist playmaker, creating a 4-2-4 shape.

This system again utilises some of the more intricate mentality mechanisms, we have discussed earlier in the thread.

• Overload mentality & Fluid shape means the team aggressively attacks and defends as a unit.
• The absence of an individual with Attack duty slightly increases the mentality across the team.
• Exploit the Middle increases the mentality of Central Defenders and Midfielders on Defend duty.
• Overlapping Wingbacks increases the mentality of Wingbacks and reduces the mentality of the Inside Forwards.

This results in a few characteristics.

• The team aren't quite all equal, but they're very close. For those still thinking in 'notches' everyone's within 2 notches of each other.
  • The entire team attacks and defends together and is aggressive and expansive in both
• The Wingbacks and Attacking Midfielder (Support) have the highest mentalities in the team.

• The Inside forwards are a 'notch' lower.
• The goalkeeper, central defenders, midfielders and striker are a 'notch' lower again, as the core of the team.

Shame there's not an easier way to show this within the interface.

This creates the 4-2-4 shape in attack, but more of a 4-5-1 in defence.

So far, we're flying.

 

..including a few absolute demolition jobs.

The first team squad all seem to be right at their peak now.

..and we rotate into a 4-3-3 regularly, particularly in the league and domestic cup games.

With some real depth in the squad throughout.

B Team look OK, a couple of regens starting to look like they might challenge to break into the squad.

 

After the youth intake drought, my U19s have all been brought in from elsewhere.

All in all, we're gearing up nicely for the later stages of the Champions League and Euro 2024. Depending on how this goes down, it could be the natural end of this save or perhaps a new direction. Will see. Although, I'd certainly like to do a few more game analysis before finishing up, time permitting.

Edited May 9, 2019 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[False9]

14 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

All in all, we're gearing up nicely for the later stages of the Champions League and Euro 2024. Depending on how this goes down, it could be the natural end of this save or perhaps a new direction. Will see. Although, I'd certainly like to do a few more game analysis before finishing up, time permitting.

Hope to see you carry on posting. This has been superb to follow. Will you think about FM2019 yet?

The 4-2-3-1 looks interesting. I love the simplicity. I notice you switched from a Deeplying Forward to Complete Forward. I wondered what's the thinking behind that?

[thedue99]

Loving the look of your 4-2-3-1 what PIs if any do you use?

[MadOnion]

That XI though  My favourite thread on here.
Dantas, Gedson and Martinez look absolute beasts.

I always though Jota was underwhelming on FM19 since he's a bit selfish and isn't as intelligent as others. How does he perform for you?
Shame that Rulli isn't a Model Professional anymore. His attributes have decreased a bit too.

[axehan1]

8 hours ago, False9 said:

Hope to see you carry on posting. This has been superb to follow. Will you think about FM2019 yet?

The 4-2-3-1 looks interesting. I love the simplicity. I notice you switched from a Deeplying Forward to Complete Forward. I wondered what's the thinking behind that?

He would occupy the same space as the AM.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

13 hours ago, False9 said:

Hope to see you carry on posting. This has been superb to follow. Will you think about FM2019 yet?

The 4-2-3-1 looks interesting. I love the simplicity. I notice you switched from a Deeplying Forward to Complete Forward. I wondered what's the thinking behind that?

Thank you  I'm still not convinced by FM2019, but I might be forced into it if I start a new save. Something I've noticed is the quality of newgens coming through in South America so it'd be interesting to try a save in Brazil or Argentina and be able to start bringing them through before 18 due to the transfer restriction.

I've run saves in Brazil before, and the long season facilitates youth development very well but my concern is running out of challenge without competing in the Champions League.

As for the deep-lying forward vs complete forward, @axehan1 nails it. Play a bit further forward to create space for my 10 but also roam and hold up the ball.

 

11 hours ago, MadOnion said:

That XI though  My favourite thread on here.
Dantas, Gedson and Martinez look absolute beasts.

I always though Jota was underwhelming on FM19 since he's a bit selfish and isn't as intelligent as others. How does he perform for you?
Shame that Rulli isn't a Model Professional anymore. His attributes have decreased a bit too.

Thank you  Yea, it's a lovely team. Everyone's peaking at the same time.

Jota has ranged from good to superb throughout this save, but I'm pretty comfortable he's in the right role now. He broke into the side as a winger and performed incredibly well, scoring and assisting and I thought he was going to be a superstar. The earliest iteration of the 4-3-3 had him as a Ramdeuter, hoping that he was going to become a Ronaldo-esq goalscorer from the flank. He did very well but was inconsistent. I think he even actually won the Balon d'Or, or something big. As time's gone on I've always felt he's a little wasted as a pure winger, but also not quite the main-man as Ramdeuter so I like him most as an Inside Forward (Support) using his ability with either foot to cut inside and either cross, pass or shoot.

Obviously attacking players always get the plaudits but he's currently 3rd in the World Footballer of the Year:

2nd in World Player of the Year:

2nd in Balon d'Or:

And in World Team of the Year:

[axehan1]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! I think I count 170 goals between your front 5 for your current seasontake a bow son!!!!

I may have to have a bash at Overload.

[axehan1]

On ‎09‎/‎05‎/‎2019 at 18:35, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

 

Quick update - you join me at the mid-point of the 2023/24 season, having just retained the World Club Championship and preparing for a second-half of the season competing for a hat-trick of Champions Leagues, and the Euro 2024 with Portugal.

The 4-2-3-1

Those of you following my tactical threads over the years will probably have noticed the influence of the Dutch/Ajax model and then the Barcelona model in my tactical preferences, particularly in the use of 4-3-3 with a 1-2 midfield set up based largely on the logic explained here.

For the past couple of seasons, we've enjoyed great success using an Iniesta-Xavi-Busquets inspired 2-1 setup.

This facilitates very effective buildup play and allows wingbacks to bomb forward, but I've always felt Florentino Luis could play a more advanced role.

Searching for a solution, we've experimented with Dantas in a 6 role with João Felix and Florentino Luis pushing ahead,

As yet, the system has never quite clicked. It's always resulted in excessive attacking responsibility on Florentino Luis or under-utilising João Felix as a box-to-box midfielder.

The 4-2-3-1 gives a number of benefits:

• Florentino Luis moves into midfield, in a role which suits him.
• João Felix oscillates between midfield and attack, giving us an extra man in the attacking line.
• The Dantas - Luis double pivot controls the midfield, recycles possession and frees our wingbacks to move forward.

In many systems, Deeplying Playmaker (Defend) would be a somewhat negative choice of playmaker. However, in the context of an Overload system, Fluid shape, passing Through the Middle and the absence of any individuals on Attack duty, it becomes quite aggressive.

He's going to sit, holding midfield and orchestrating attacking play, with lots of passing options ahead of him.

My personal preference is to play with - at most - one playmaker. This comes from experimenting with the Pep's Barcelona tactic and observing - purely a subjective personal opinion - the team prioritising the more attacking playmaker, altering the way I wanted to play. This means that my Number 10 role is simply Attacking Midfield (Support). The objective is for the Number 10 to act as an all-round attacker, described in this article about the Brazilian 'Ponta de Lança' rather than a specialist playmaker, creating a 4-2-4 shape.

This system again utilises some of the more intricate mentality mechanisms, we have discussed earlier in the thread.

• Overload mentality & Fluid shape means the team aggressively attacks and defends as a unit.
• The absence of an individual with Attack duty slightly increases the mentality across the team.
• Exploit the Middle increases the mentality of Central Defenders and Midfielders on Defend duty.
• Overlapping Wingbacks increases the mentality of Wingbacks and reduces the mentality of the Inside Forwards.

This results in a few characteristics.

• The team aren't quite all equal, but they're very close. For those still thinking in 'notches' everyone's within 2 notches of each other.
  • The entire team attacks and defends together and is aggressive and expansive in both
• The Wingbacks and Attacking Midfielder (Support) have the highest mentalities in the team.

• The Inside forwards are a 'notch' lower.
• The goalkeeper, central defenders, midfielders and striker are a 'notch' lower again, as the core of the team.

Shame there's not an easier way to show this within the interface.

This creates the 4-2-4 shape in attack, but more of a 4-5-1 in defence.

So far, we're flying.

 

..including a few absolute demolition jobs.

The first team squad all seem to be right at their peak now.

..and we rotate into a 4-3-3 regularly, particularly in the league and domestic cup games.

With some real depth in the squad throughout.

B Team look OK, a couple of regens starting to look like they might challenge to break into the squad.

 

After the youth intake drought, my U19s have all been brought in from elsewhere.

All in all, we're gearing up nicely for the later stages of the Champions League and Euro 2024. Depending on how this goes down, it could be the natural end of this save or perhaps a new direction. Will see. Although, I'd certainly like to do a few more game analysis before finishing up, time permitting.

If you decide to finish would you put your save up for others to continue?I'd like to have a look at it.

[steakfaced]

8 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Thank you  I'm still not convinced by FM2019, but I might be forced into it if I start a new save. Something I've noticed is the quality of newgens coming through in South America so it'd be interesting to try a save in Brazil or Argentina and be able to start bringing them through before 18 due to the transfer restriction.

I've run saves in Brazil before, and the long season facilitates youth development very well but my concern is running out of challenge without competing in the Champions League.

As for the deep-lying forward vs complete forward, @axehan1 nails it. Play a bit further forward to create space for my 10 but also roam and hold up the ball.

 

Thank you  Yea, it's a lovely team. Everyone's peaking at the same time.

Jota has ranged from good to superb throughout this save, but I'm pretty comfortable he's in the right role now. He broke into the side as a winger and performed incredibly well, scoring and assisting and I thought he was going to be a superstar. The earliest iteration of the 4-3-3 had him as a Ramdeuter, hoping that he was going to become a Ronaldo-esq goalscorer from the flank. He did very well but was inconsistent. I think he even actually won the Balon d'Or, or something big. As time's gone on I've always felt he's a little wasted as a pure winger, but also not quite the main-man as Ramdeuter so I like him most as an Inside Forward (Support) using his ability with either foot to cut inside and either cross, pass or shoot.

Obviously attacking players always get the plaudits but he's currently 3rd in the World Footballer of the Year:

2nd in World Player of the Year:

2nd in Balon d'Or:

And in World Team of the Year:

It's criminal that bobsin is only a reserve on this list

[False9]

11 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Thank you  I'm still not convinced by FM2019, but I might be forced into it if I start a new save. Something I've noticed is the quality of newgens coming through in South America so it'd be interesting to try a save in Brazil or Argentina and be able to start bringing them through before 18 due to the transfer restriction.

I've run saves in Brazil before, and the long season facilitates youth development very well but my concern is running out of challenge without competing in the Champions League.

As for the deep-lying forward vs complete forward, @axehan1 nails it. Play a bit further forward to create space for my 10 but also roam and hold up the ball.

Thanks ozil and axehan. Interesting to understand. I am learning my way around tactics so its interesting to see your approach. Theres a lot to learn.

Brazil would be interesting, but I also agree about the lack of top level club competition. Which side would you pick?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

23 hours ago, thedue99 said:

Loving the look of your 4-2-3-1 what PIs if any do you use?

Sorry - I missed this one. Let me get to the end of the season and I'll do a detailed write up. Very simple in terms of PIs though. Just goalkeeper distribution and a few attacking runs here in the '3' and that's about it. Centre backs encouraged to dribble out of defence, sometimes do but rarely.

 

11 hours ago, axehan1 said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! I think I count 170 goals between your front 5 for your current seasontake a bow son!!!!

I may have to have a bash at Overload.

I was actually hoping somebody would. Obviously I've put a lot of time into building the squad specifically for this so I am wondering how replicable the results are. A few others have had success via PMs but I've not seen much sustained over a few seasons.

The challenge is the early implementation. You've either got to be very careful in choosing the right team, or spend 3-5 seasons building up to it.

If it helps, I'd previously had similar results with Liverpool (hence why I thought about the Ramdeuter role for Jota):

 

..and initially Napoli.

..and it all originally stemmed from the Bielsa thread, if you want a few more examples 

Goal counts have always been huge. It's the best football I've seen. In fact, this is the best side I've had now. The stats are fairly significantly overstated here by the quality of the league and the big european clubs have also failed to build or develop so we're the best club side in the game by a mile at the moment.

 

4 hours ago, axehan1 said:

If you decide to finish would you put your save up for others to continue?I'd like to have a look at it.

I don't have a problem with that in principle. Let me get to the end of the season and make the decision as to where to go from here.

Some form of increased challenge is going to be the only thing that'd keep me at Benfica at the moment. There's a lot of the traditional big European clubs requiring a major rebuild - I'll update on this shortly - but moving clubs is always extremely hit or miss for me.

 

3 hours ago, steakfaced said:

It's criminal that bobsin is only a reserve on this list

Aye. He's my Bonucci. Did have a couple of injuries last season and I always notice re-trained players are often neglected in the various team of the year nominations. Pinto still pops up as a right back in the Benfica Best XI despite having not played there in 7 years and hundreds of appearances at Centre Back 

 

 

 

 

 

 

4

22 minutes ago, False9 said:

Thanks ozil and axehan. Interesting to understand. I am learning my way around tactics so its interesting to see your approach. Theres a lot to learn.

Start simple. Either pick a club you know or take the time to get to know a squad very well.

Pick a style of play that suits them and play something simple. 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1, 4-4-2 variants, 3-5-2 etc are balanced staples that most squads can manage. Depending on what version of FM you're on, I've actually put together a couple of different templates and happy to share. Nothing fancy, just basic systems that work and you can build upon.
 

22 minutes ago, False9 said:

Thanks ozil and axehan. Interesting to understand. I am learning my way around tactics so its interesting to see your approach. Theres a lot to learn.

Brazil would be interesting, but I also agree about the lack of top level club competition. Which side would you pick?

As you can see through the history of my saves, I like the big clubs with some history. I've a soft spot for Santos and Flamengo in Brazil. Santos has been done to death and you just end up praying for a Pele-esq newgen so maybe Flamengo.

I'm not sure why but in FM 2019 they don't seem to be playing at the Maracana. Not aware of the real-life situation but that could be a huge potential club.

I'm unsure of their existing academy prospects, so it'd be a fairly different save to this one. They'd not have the same infrastructure in place but would have earlier access to - in this save, at least - the most talented pool of newgens in the game.

[BnadnerB]

The modern day SFraser!

Threads are just a joy to read, its none of the monotonous do this, this, this, this, this, this, this and you will have success. Its just thinking about Football at face value, rather than as a computer game!

Extremely inspirational my friend @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! 

[axehan1]

Am I cursed in the 1st knockout round of the Champions League

We even played the better football but for some reason the away leg of the first knockout round has seen us on the wrong end of 3-0 scoreline.

Looks like we'll have to wait till next season for another crack.

But wait....

A stunning second leg sees us smash Bayern in a 4-0 demolition job.

[denen123]

On 16/03/2019 at 22:42, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

5 Year Update

For those still following along so far, thank you for your patience. Work, life, travel and study has put Football Manager to a back seat for the past few months but this game has been ticking along slowly in the background whenever time has allowed but I've been nowhere near able to maintain regular updates.

This game has been one of the most enjoyable, to date. I would highly recommend Benfica to anyone looking for a talented young squad of players to bring through.

The Overhaul

Last time out, we won the league and had a respectable Champions League campaign reaching the knock-out phase, playing a 4-4-2 diamond with a dominant midfield.
 

 

Talented players from the academy were introduced with increasing regularity over the course of the season.

 

 

Despite a great season, Talisca started forcing a move within weeks of returning to the club. The most daunting decision being to cash in on midfield colossus Ljubomir Fejsa to make way for 5'6", 18-year old playmaker Tiago Dantas from the academy. Cervi and Krovinovic also sent out on paid loans to Sevilla and Manchester City respectively in the hope of appreciating value as they develop. Fabregas joins to tutor and re-enforce the new style of play, alongside a couple of youngsters to keep the conveyor belt running.

 

 

The First Team - 2019/2020

 

We entered the season with an average age of less than 21-years old, captained by 22-year old Ruben Dias:

We adopted the 4-1-4-1 that has been employed by the Academy and B Team for the past 2-years, giving some sense of familiarity with the system. The biggest change is probably the shift from a physically dominant team, to a preference for intelligent technical players.

 

The squad developed exceptionally as a group over the course of the season. Training remaining unchanged from the Tactical training from the last 2 years.

Dominance of Portuguese domestic competition became yet more comprehensive.

 

Cementing our status as the most exciting young squad in Europe, dominating an ageing Barcelona team to win the Champions League.

For the sake of actually getting this update out, rather than delaying until I have more time, I am not going to go into the typical in-game analysis of the 4-1-4-1 as it's the same as has been done before, but with more developed players.

Some observations from the season were:

• Excellent possession play, triangles everywhere and naturally dominates games.
• Regularly excellent attacking play in the 2-3-5 shape, however occasionally shut down by more physical midfield blocks.
• Jota (João Felipe) has developed into an electric attacking player with excellent dribbling, flair, agility and acceleration.
• The introduction of Florentino Luis massively improves the balance of the team with his intelligence, work rate and physicality. Covers right back, holding midfield and central midfield.

 

The Portugal job & the Olympics

 

The save took an interesting turn when Portugal crashed out of Euro 2020 early, presenting an opportunity to take this project to an international stage.

 

 

The first challenge was the Olympic Games in Japan. The Portugal U-23 squad was absolutely head and shoulders ahead of the opposition, so I decided to open the floodgates with a high-octane 4-3-3.

The objective was to play high-intensity pressing, with quick, short passing and build up play through a technical midfield.

• Overload gives us high mentalities across the team, high closing down, high line and high tempo.
• Team Instructions give us the shorter passing and build up play.
• Shifting to a 4-3-3 gives Jota more attacking freedom to cut inside with Guerreiro overlapping on the left.
• Gedson Fernandes playing in the front 3 adds physicality and work-rate to our pressing and facilitates Florentino Luis to come in at right back.

Results were exceptional and some of the play was excellent.

 

 

 

The Centurians

 

The squad is now certainly evolution, rather than revolution. Keeping talented players at the club became the priority.

 

 

After enjoying the style of play experimented with during the Olympics, I decided to translate that back to club level.

 

 

Continued game time at the appropriate level is continuing to drive players development, maintaining the tactical training emphasising mental attributes.

 

 

The presence of Gedson Fernandes in the front 3 and Florentino Luis at the back solidified the setup greatly, resulting in our strongest league campaign yet.

 

 

Managing to break a goalscoring record which stood since 1947.

 

 

However unfortunately falling at the last hurdle to a Real Madrid side we could really have beaten, but our lightweight midfield was exposed.

 

 

Redemption & the World Cup

 

Delighted with the way the team is playing, our squad and tactics are now certainly evolution rather than revolution. Essentially rotating the right flank of the team clockwise put the defensive and physical influence of Florentino Luis into a central position. Gedson Fernandes reverts to his more familiar role of wingback, and João Felix takes a creative inside forward role on the right of the attacking trident. Tiago Dantas remains the playmaker, but with the solidarity of Luis behind.

 

 

Development continued, with the majority of the squad now playing at an extremely high level in comparison to the league.

 

 

The result being a repetition of the 100-point season:

 

 

..and the return of the Champions League.

 

 

Entering the World Cup on the crest of a massive wave, we kept the system the core of the team uses week in, week out.

 

 

Interestingly, there's quite a contrast between the relative ability when players are rated domestically in Portugal vs internationally at a World Cup.

 

 

Finishing off the year with style 

 

 

What next?

At this moment, I'm not sure. I've started keeping an eye on managerial movements in the major leagues around Europe as I quite fancy a new challenge, potentially taking a couple of players with me into a new league. At the moment, nothing fits so I'll be sticking with Benfica.

Experimenting in the pre-season with a 3-4-3 but undecided if it's going to work in the Champions League.

 

 

Embalo has had a couple of fantastic seasons pushing into the first team and is now ready to start and his pace and power will add to the attack. That'll cause a re-shuffle with at one big name needing to leave the club. I'm not sure who yet, but it'll be a similar evolution next season.

If there's interest, I can do a couple of match analysis when I have time. It's quite a basic 4-3-3 but played with overload and a group of players who have been working towards this style for a number of years.

I'm really interested to hear if anyone's tried Benfica in FM2019, and whether this set of overload 4-3-3s works in other people's team or whether it's just the level of dominance Benfica have reached.

This may rank as my top 3 of your Threads, so if it eventually stops here, know that you've done so much for the community. Hope you can start FM19 so we can steal more of your ideas😂. Joking. 

Last question: I see you've used a Halfback in a couple of your formations. I've avoided the role because of the issues it caused in FM17. I've confirmed from friends that it(issues) still persisted in FM18. I just want to know how you've got the Halfback working for you, if the issues still bother you & how you utilize it(HB) in your tactics. This will be really helpful for me & i believe, others.

 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

5 hours ago, BnadnerB said:

The modern day SFraser!

Threads are just a joy to read, its none of the monotonous do this, this, this, this, this, this, this and you will have success. Its just thinking about Football at face value, rather than as a computer game!

Extremely inspirational my friend @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! 

Thank you very much  As mentioned a couple of times, a lot of this comes from SFraser's excellent threads 

 

11 minutes ago, denen123 said:

This may rank as my top 3 of your Threads, so if it eventually stops here, know that you've done so much for the community. Hope you can start FM19 so we can steal more of your ideas😂. Joking. 

Last question: I see you've used a Halfback in a couple of your formations. I've avoided the role because of the issues it caused in FM17. I've confirmed from friends that it(issues) still persisted in FM18. I just want to know how you've got the Halfback working for you, if the issues still bother you & how you utilize it(HB) in your tactics. This will be really helpful for me & i believe, others.

 

Thank you 

In FM 2017 and before, the Half Back would drop deep into the between the centre backs, but the centre backs failed to spread wide if you had players in the DL/R strata so they'd end up bunched up like this:

In FM 2018, the Half Back drops deep and the centre backs do spread out, however the issue is that they are slow moving back into the centre as the attack develops so you are particularly vulnerable to counter attacks for a period and has resulted in the occasional hairy moment.

Both my centre backs are quick and intelligent which mitigates the issue a fair bit. I probably wouldn't do it unless I was very confident in them.

Ultimately it's just a trade-off as to whether you want that build up play and are prepared to accept the risk that comes with it. At the moment, we don't need it. Particularly in the league sides sit deep and barely press us at all. Hence why I've asked Ball Playing Defenders to dribble forward with the ball in an attempt to draw out an opposition midfielder and create some space.

Hope that answers the question 

[denen123]

It does.

Thanks alot

[zlatanera]

I always feel like playing on Overload / Very Attacking is something that needs to be earned...and I barely make it past season 2 in most of my saves. I'm either starting up with Benfica or Ajax on FM19 and will work towards Overload, but when I tried it out a little with Roma from season 1 I just found that despite the high familiarity we weren't playing like it. I still feel like there's a benefit to having a team playing together for an entire year before you can really get something out of the more ambitious styles, unless your squad is already perfectly suited for it like when I played Lyon with a 433 Jardim replication (which I think I mentioned on this thread). 

On thing new on FM19 I do enjoy is that - I think, but I'm not certain, that its only when you have Play Out Of Defence selected - from a goal kick centre backs split wide and your DM will drop between them to receive the ball as your full backs push high up. When I played a 442 with two DMs it looked practically bizarre, the DMs and CBs forming a back four, the FBs pushing up so it looked like we had 3 players on each flank, and nobody at all in the centre. 

[axelmuller]

very nice job. how is Umaro Embalo the ballon d'or winner looking at the moment? seems not to be in the Portugal squad, or does he represent cape verde or something else.

[buachuta]

Is there anyone from followers who's playing FM 19? I'm obviously very impressed by the work of @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! and I wonder how can "very fluid" style of football (it's author's trademark after all ) be emulated in this year's version of the game. 

 

Is it just about the freedom we give to our players, is it compactness or maybe it's just roles? Would love to see O-zil's ideas implemented in FM19  

[zlatanera]

17 minutes ago, buachuta said:

Is there anyone from followers who's playing FM 19? I'm obviously very impressed by the work of @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! and I wonder how can "very fluid" style of football (it's author's trademark after all ) be emulated in this year's version of the game. 

 

Is it just about the freedom we give to our players, is it compactness or maybe it's just roles? Would love to see O-zil's ideas implemented in FM19  

His tactics are generally formed on pretty sound principles, you can just translate them directly in the new ME and perhaps make minor tweaks. If he has a Higher Defensive Line, bump up the Line Of Engagement by the same amount, and I've yet to see him play a style where you wouldn't select Counter-Press (could debate if to use Counter or not). I used his Sacchi 4411 but with the AM and ST duties swapped and got good results even in the earliest, worse ME. 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

3 hours ago, zlatanera said:

I always feel like playing on Overload / Very Attacking is something that needs to be earned...and I barely make it past season 2 in most of my saves. I'm either starting up with Benfica or Ajax on FM19 and will work towards Overload, but when I tried it out a little with Roma from season 1 I just found that despite the high familiarity we weren't playing like it. I still feel like there's a benefit to having a team playing together for an entire year before you can really get something out of the more ambitious styles, unless your squad is already perfectly suited for it like when I played Lyon with a 433 Jardim replication (which I think I mentioned on this thread). 

On thing new on FM19 I do enjoy is that - I think, but I'm not certain, that its only when you have Play Out Of Defence selected - from a goal kick centre backs split wide and your DM will drop between them to receive the ball as your full backs push high up. When I played a 442 with two DMs it looked practically bizarre, the DMs and CBs forming a back four, the FBs pushing up so it looked like we had 3 players on each flank, and nobody at all in the centre. 

Yes, certainly. Over the years I've moved from Standard to Control to Attacking to Overload and that experience has been helpful each time I'm starting with a new team and being able to gauge a style that could suit the players.

I can't really comment on FM2019, but I'm sure they're gradually improving the way build up play works. Based upon my experience in this save, the AI needs to press more effectively in order to make that kind of build up necessary.

 

1 hour ago, axelmuller said:

very nice job. how is Umaro Embalo the ballon d'or winner looking at the moment? seems not to be in the Portugal squad, or does he represent cape verde or something else.

He's a very strong, quick, intelligent player. Excellent dribbler. He adds a really different dynamic to the attack. I'll post a screenshot next time I am on FM.

He's in the Portugal team. He was maybe a squad player during the last World Cup but I think he'll be our highest rated player going into Euro 2024.

 

1 hour ago, buachuta said:

Is there anyone from followers who's playing FM 19? I'm obviously very impressed by the work of @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! and I wonder how can "very fluid" style of football (it's author's trademark after all ) be emulated in this year's version of the game. 

 

Is it just about the freedom we give to our players, is it compactness or maybe it's just roles? Would love to see O-zil's ideas implemented in FM19  

It should definitely be do-able.

Start with either a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 using a simple combination of roles and lots of Support duties. That seems to be how FM2019 determines "fluid".

Assign mentality based on how you'd like the team to play and then freedom based on their intelligence as footballers. It should be very simple.

Happy to offer some pointers, if you want to be more specific about what you're trying to do.

 

1 hour ago, zlatanera said:

His tactics are generally formed on pretty sound principles, you can just translate them directly in the new ME and perhaps make minor tweaks. If he has a Higher Defensive Line, bump up the Line Of Engagement by the same amount, and I've yet to see him play a style where you wouldn't select Counter-Press (could debate if to use Counter or not). I used his Sacchi 4411 but with the AM and ST duties swapped and got good results even in the earliest, worse ME. 

Most should work, so long as you've got the right players to suit the system 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

13 hours ago, axelmuller said:

very nice job. how is Umaro Embalo the ballon d'or winner looking at the moment? seems not to be in the Portugal squad, or does he represent cape verde or something else.