Caixa Futebol Academy: Youth Development & Adapting Tactics

[Armistice]

I love your analysis mate.

[craiigman]

6 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Very limited PIs.

• Goalkeeper distribution - to centre backs in possession system & to flanks in counter.
• Striker moves into channels.
• Wingers get forward more.
• DM(D) and DLP(D) close down less.

Sorry which system has a DM(D)?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

13 minutes ago, craiigman said:

Sorry which system has a DM(D)?

Sorry, MC(D)

[roggiotis]

@O-zil

How did you manage the MC(D) to close down less ?

[TheJanitor]

[Yoeri]

@kpsia518

Why would U create a 2vs1 on the flank? It's very possible that the second player of yours, would activate that your opponent has to send another defender to you. That makes 2:2. I prefer 1:1 above 2:2, especially if you have a winger with a high attribute for technique. 

[Yoeri]

14 hours ago, kpsia518 said:

comprehensive,yes i did.

may be i do more test on Mezzala.But i not sure is Mezzalas roaming this big  all the green area :

 

so far i know AP did.

 

I would use a Segundo Volante attack

[mistuhg]

@O-zil

Thanks for the very informative post, I'll be following along keenly.

I wanted to ask you what your thoughts were on loaning out youth players and if you had anything that you specifically looked for in a player before you would send him out on loan.

I remember reading an old post by SFraser a year or two ago and he said that he wouldn't be loaning out a player unless his determination was at least a 15. I personally thought this was maybe a bit much to ask, however any time I have actually loaned out a youth player I noticed that they don't seem to develop as much as what they would have done if I had just kept them and trained them at my own club so perhaps SFraser was correct.

 

[kpsia518]

12 hours ago, Yoeri said:

@kpsia518

Why would U create a 2vs1 on the flank? It's very possible that the second player of yours, would activate that your opponent has to send another defender to you. That makes 2:2. I prefer 1:1 above 2:2, especially if you have a winger with a high attribute for technique. 

yes i agree that,& that can be one of the part in the plan.

its can be a "decoy".
i pull them down side so some space will be empty.I can get some body stepping in.

If AI not following me that mean i got freerun to the goal

 

[craiigman]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! I just booted up a SLB save, this was my staff:

Did you sign some new guys to bump it up to that? Your post suggests was already like that?

[steakfaced]

Ah I love your threads but tbh, they're frustrating in a sense that all I want to do is play fM for hours after I read them.

A few questions however.

My main concern with things like this is I get bored once I win. I currently have a Andlercht/Belgium save going similar and in season 2 we've made it to the CL Qfs again, the only thing that will take us beyond is heavy investment..not sure if I want to do that tho as I prefer to promote but the ability isn't completely there and the players get high enough, but can only fetch fees of maybe 20m.

Are you at all concerned that such easy success with such a young team will lead you to being bored? I've always contemplated an SLB save cuz quite frankly, their youth academy is stacked in game. They also just won the U-19 Euros, with a few players mentioned here. I fear that I'll just...be pushing out the older players as soon as possible to use my younger new ones haha.

Either way, love this thread and the old Cruyff one and followed it closely. Cheers for everything you share here.

[Yoeri]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! with what program are you setting up those lines in your analysis?

[ChrisBones1990]

Have inspired me to start a benfica save, havnt done one since fm15

[okereke]

En 28/7/2018 a las 4:44, kpsia518 dijo:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

what role should i use on this CM.

CM pushing forward :


CM freedom roamming in this area.



2 vs 1 in wide area.




The SC track 2 def to him,winger staying wide.



CM freedom roamming in this area.CM Running beyond the defensive line.




so what role should i use on this CM ?
AP-At is best fit,but AP-At didn't run beyond the defensive line.
CM-At sitting more centre,Don't know he run beyond the defensive line or not.

or should i use AM-at ?
 

Which software did you make those graphics with?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

End of 2017/18 Season Update

 

 

We certainly didn't set the world alight but the ruthlessly efficient league form continued after the winter break with a winning run stretching all the way to March, as good as deciding the title right there.

 

 

Tying up the title a few games early meant an opportunity to hand out a few late league debuts and try an experimental starting team.

 

 

Until that point, the first team stayed reasonably consistent.

 

 

After finishing off PSG, unfortunately Barcelona proved a step too far in the Semi Final.

 

 

..but managing a comeback victory in the first leg was one of the highlights of the season.

 

 

Barcelona went on to be defeated by Pep's Man City in the final, who also picked up a league title pretty much establishing themselves as the main powerhouse in Europe at the moment.

 

 

The disadvantage of our Champions League run has been vultures circling the first team.

 

 

Going to be an interesting summer in the transfer market!

 

 

Lots of positive developments on the players coming through.

I'm going to play out the summer holiday season and do a development update at the start of pre-season.

 

[Tcufrog]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! can you explain why you use WB's on attack in your 4-4-2?  I use FB's in mine or else my flanks are left wide open. Thanks!

[Jean0987654321]

4 hours ago, okereke said:

Which software did you make those graphics with?

He didn't make those graphics. He got that off of a site

[Joey Numbaz]

On 21/07/2018 at 07:56, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Central Midfielders move into the channels, get forward more and run with the ball

That quote is from your possession tactic ... does that mean "dribble more" or did you mean, "run wide with the ball" and just leave out wide by mistake? I assume you meant dribble more since you already have wingers out there, but I've seen less intuitive things work 

Also, thanks for writing this up, I like to build with youth and this is a great read.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Joey Numbaz

[JoOSTAR]

2 hours ago, Joey Numbaz said:

That quote is from your possession tactic ... does that mean "dribble more" or did you mean, "run wide with the ball" and just leave out wide by mistake? I assume you meant dribble more since you already have wingers out there, but I've seen less intuitive things work 

Also, thanks for writing this up, I like to build with youth and this is a great read.

Pretty sure that it's "dribble more", because there are screenshots of his CM's and it shows the "dribble more"

 

[Joey Numbaz]

1 hour ago, JoOSTAR said:

Pretty sure that it's "dribble more", because there are screenshots of his CM's and it shows the "dribble more"

 

Hah, yeah, just noticed that, thanks!

[kpsia518]

On 31/07/2018 at 03:31, Jean0987654321 said:

He didn't make those graphics. He got that off of a site

any idea how to get my winger make this run more ? (cut inside 40~45 degree,down to the deep line,not run straight line to the deep )

i saw my winger got many change to make this run when i face a bus parking AI.

but he just didn't make that run,he just pass the ball

 

[westy8chimp]

10 minutes ago, kpsia518 said:

any idea how to get my winger make this run more ? (cut inside 40~45 degree,down to the deep line,not run straight line to the deep )

i saw my winger got many change to make this run when i face a bus parking AI.

but he just didn't make that run,he just pass the ball

 

Its as much about the supplier as the winger. Ill mention u in my recent thread as i have an example of this movement. 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Excuse me, everyone. Fallen a little behind on responding to queries.

 

On 28/07/2018 at 22:36, mistuhg said:

@O-zil

Thanks for the very informative post, I'll be following along keenly.

I wanted to ask you what your thoughts were on loaning out youth players and if you had anything that you specifically looked for in a player before you would send him out on loan.

I remember reading an old post by SFraser a year or two ago and he said that he wouldn't be loaning out a player unless his determination was at least a 15. I personally thought this was maybe a bit much to ask, however any time I have actually loaned out a youth player I noticed that they don't seem to develop as much as what they would have done if I had just kept them and trained them at my own club so perhaps SFraser was correct.

 

 

Good question.

Watch this space.

I am experimenting with loaning players out for 100% of their wages and a small monthly fee.

 

 

Over the year that is £2.5m revenue at zero cost whilst - potentially - developing the player and increasing his value.

Potentially an interesting way to keep up with the big money clubs.

 

On 29/07/2018 at 20:35, craiigman said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! I just booted up a SLB save, this was my staff:

Did you sign some new guys to bump it up to that? Your post suggests was already like that?

Yes, brought in a couple of coaches and scouts. Always fill up the quota. Nothing crazy, pretty much restricted to scouts available for free. There's a bunch of good ones coming from South America. If you're after names then I can have a look next time I fire up the save!

 

On 30/07/2018 at 08:21, steakfaced said:

Ah I love your threads but tbh, they're frustrating in a sense that all I want to do is play fM for hours after I read them.

A few questions however.

My main concern with things like this is I get bored once I win. I currently have a Andlercht/Belgium save going similar and in season 2 we've made it to the CL Qfs again, the only thing that will take us beyond is heavy investment..not sure if I want to do that tho as I prefer to promote but the ability isn't completely there and the players get high enough, but can only fetch fees of maybe 20m.

Are you at all concerned that such easy success with such a young team will lead you to being bored? I've always contemplated an SLB save cuz quite frankly, their youth academy is stacked in game. They also just won the U-19 Euros, with a few players mentioned here. I fear that I'll just...be pushing out the older players as soon as possible to use my younger new ones haha.

Either way, love this thread and the old Cruyff one and followed it closely. Cheers for everything you share here.

 

Everyone plays differently and personally I enjoy creating styles of football in the match engine, more than achieving a particular challenge.

Most of my saves are 2-3 seasons with a top quality side, playing a particular way. This time adding developing players from a young age should at least increase that to 4-5 seasons, maybe more if I go to Portugal or another club.

I'm not anticipating a particular challenge but I am excited to see what I can create in the match engine with players trained specifically from such a young age.

 

On 30/07/2018 at 12:15, Yoeri said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! with what program are you setting up those lines in your analysis?

Mac equivalent of paint 

 

On 30/07/2018 at 20:13, Tcufrog said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! can you explain why you use WB's on attack in your 4-4-2?  I use FB's in mine or else my flanks are left wide open. Thanks!

 

Good question.

The decision of the role - wingback vs. fullback - is purely down to personal preference based on the Player Instructions template.

• Wingback offers a little bit more in attack - dribbling, staying wide, crossing more etc.
• This suits Grimaldo and Gedson Fernandes well.
• Wingers roam from position so wingbacks guarantee attacking width and both central midfield players hold position so we have good cover.

Wouldn't be overly committed to this choice, if I see any reason to change. If I went for fullbacks I'd stop wingers roaming and maybe add a midfield runner.

Attack vs Support (vs Defend) decision comes down to the balance between Team Mentality, Team Shape and Team Instructions.

In the Standard, Structured system:

• Standard mentality gives us a balanced start point.
• Structured team shape makes attackers more attacking and defenders more defensive, reducing Individual Mentality slightly.
• Look for the Overlap slightly increases their individual mentality back to neutral.

This combines to mean a Support role, looks like this:

 

 

In the Structured Counter system:

• Counter mentality slightly reduces Individual Mentality.
• Structured team shape makes attackers more attacking and defenders more defensive, thus further reducing Individual Mentality slightly.
• Look for Overlap is no longer enough to counter-act both of these factors.

An Attack duty, counter balanced by a Control mentality and Structured shape comes out quite balanced.

 

 

1 hour ago, kpsia518 said:

any idea how to get my winger make this run more ? (cut inside 40~45 degree,down to the deep line,not run straight line to the deep )

i saw my winger got many change to make this run when i face a bus parking AI.

but he just didn't make that run,he just pass the ball

Maybe try experimenting with a couple of different ideas:

• Use a role with the instruction Cut Inside With Ball.
• Use a player with 'cuts inside from x wing' as a trait and give them some creative freedom.

Inverted Winger can stay wide, get forward, cut inside with the ball and cross more? TI low crosses.

Inside forward can do the same without cross more. Winger can do the same without cutting inside. Wide Midfielder will do whatever the hell you want but no player is ever going to be seen as suitable for the role! 

[Fritz13]

Hi @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

Saw you got £250K per month for Joao Carvalho and was wondering what you default setting (via Responsibilities) for offering players out for was?

[zlatanera]

@kpsia518 try inside fowards with "stay wider" selected. I've been using a possession tactic with two IF (one Su, one At) "Stay Wider" and they get fed by one of my dual playmakers to make similar runs, often then cutting it back to my CF-Su or the opposite sided IF. As ÖP suggested, I have Low Crosses ticked as well.

@Fritz13 If you have a good player and you're offering to a top league (or Championship due to the money), if you offer 100% wages and 250k for both used and unused, you'll usually get bites. I doubt your staff members will go for that deal as often as a player would

Edited August 1, 2018 by zlatanera

[craiigman]

4 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Excuse me, everyone. Fallen a little behind on responding to queries.

 

 

Good question.

Watch this space.

I am experimenting with loaning players out for 100% of their wages and a small monthly fee.

 

 

Over the year that is £2.5m revenue at zero cost whilst - potentially - developing the player and increasing his value.

Potentially an interesting way to keep up with the big money clubs.

 

Yes, brought in a couple of coaches and scouts. Always fill up the quota. Nothing crazy, pretty much restricted to scouts available for free. There's a bunch of good ones coming from South America. If you're after names then I can have a look next time I fire up the save!

 

 

Everyone plays differently and personally I enjoy creating styles of football in the match engine, more than achieving a particular challenge.

Most of my saves are 2-3 seasons with a top quality side, playing a particular way. This time adding developing players from a young age should at least increase that to 4-5 seasons, maybe more if I go to Portugal or another club.

I'm not anticipating a particular challenge but I am excited to see what I can create in the match engine with players trained specifically from such a young age.

 

Mac equivalent of paint 

 

 

Good question.

The decision of the role - wingback vs. fullback - is purely down to personal preference based on the Player Instructions template.

• Wingback offers a little bit more in attack - dribbling, staying wide, crossing more etc.
• This suits Grimaldo and Gedson Fernandes well.
• Wingers roam from position so wingbacks guarantee attacking width and both central midfield players hold position so we have good cover.

Wouldn't be overly committed to this choice, if I see any reason to change. If I went for fullbacks I'd stop wingers roaming and maybe add a midfield runner.

Attack vs Support (vs Defend) decision comes down to the balance between Team Mentality, Team Shape and Team Instructions.

In the Standard, Structured system:

• Standard mentality gives us a balanced start point.
• Structured team shape makes attackers more attacking and defenders more defensive, reducing Individual Mentality slightly.
• Look for the Overlap slightly increases their individual mentality back to neutral.

This combines to mean a Support role, looks like this:

 

 

In the Structured Counter system:

• Counter mentality slightly reduces Individual Mentality.
• Structured team shape makes attackers more attacking and defenders more defensive, thus further reducing Individual Mentality slightly.
• Look for Overlap is no longer enough to counter-act both of these factors.

An Attack duty, counter balanced by a Control mentality and Structured shape comes out quite balanced.

 

 

Maybe try experimenting with a couple of different ideas:

• Use a role with the instruction Cut Inside With Ball.
• Use a player with 'cuts inside from x wing' as a trait and give them some creative freedom.

Inverted Winger can stay wide, get forward, cut inside with the ball and cross more? TI low crosses.

Inside forward can do the same without cross more. Winger can do the same without cutting inside. Wide Midfielder will do whatever the hell you want but no player is ever going to be seen as suitable for the role! 

Hate that about the WM role. I love using it, and while I don't care too much about the circle colour, it's mildly infuriating that no player is ever suitable to play there, even after a whole reason playing it. It's a strange role in the game, and idea if it has any hard coded actions?

[craiigman]

21 minutes ago, zlatanera said:

@kpsia518 try inside fowards with "stay wider" selected. I've been using a possession tactic with two IF (one Su, one At) "Stay Wider" and they get fed by one of my dual playmakers to make similar runs, often then cutting it back to my CF-Su or the opposite sided IF. As ÖP suggested, I have Low Crosses ticked as well.

@Fritz13 If you have a good player and you're offering to a top league (or Championship due to the money), if you offer 100% wages and 250k for both used and unused, you'll usually get bites. I doubt your staff members will go for that deal as often as a player would

On the loan thing, you set % not price though?

[zlatanera]

5 hours ago, craiigman said:

On the loan thing, you set % not price though?

You set % wages, but the monthly fee is price. I usually ask between £100k and £250k depending on the quality of player and the interested parties - in South America I could barely get fees, but if I'm in a top European division I'll often take in £10-20million per window just on loan fees.

[Joey Numbaz]

13 minutes ago, zlatanera said:

You set % wages, but the monthly fee is price. I usually ask between £100k and £250k depending on the quality of player and the interested parties - in South America I could barely get fees, but if I'm in a top European division I'll often take in £10-20million per window just on loan fees.

You can have your settings default to a % of the players value for the monthly fee (which is on top of the wage%). Which is useful if you let the Director of Football or someone else negotiate loans.

One thing I'll do is look at the prospective club and see what they pay players of a similar quality in salary. If my guy is making a lot less, a realistic monthly fee to ask for is something that bridges that gap.

Edited August 1, 2018 by Joey Numbaz

[zlatanera]

@Joey Numbaz forgot about that setting! I don't like it as I find you'll struggle to get more than £250k monthly fee for any players valued £10-40million as the lower valued ones are targeted by poorer clubs whilst the higher valued ones tend to be on higher wages which usually leads clubs to move around their finances leaving less to spend on the fee. 

[Joey Numbaz]

Yeah, it's just a nice default to have. You can always edit it before offering the player out. I am rarely loaning out players worth that kind of money anyway 

[craiigman]

On 28/07/2018 at 09:56, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

My apologies, that's not clear.

I mean allowing for the fact that you're - probably! - not going to turn someone from 10 Determination and Balanced personality into a Model Citizen with 20 for Determination in one tutoring.

Let me give an example.

If I've got a 16 year old with 10 for Determination and a Balanced personality and a Model Citizen available with 20 in Determination.

It is reasonably unlikely that Determination would increase from 10 to 20 in the approximately 6-month period, not to mention Professionalism and all the other hidden attributes and this would leave you in a situation where you are unable to immediately use the same Model Citizen tutor again to finish the job.

Instead, if I choose a tutor with - say - 15 in Determination and Spirited - or any positive personality, Fairly Professional, Resolute, etc - then this is more achievable.

The youngster can then be tutored by the Model Citizen with a more realistic chance of success.

You could even go around a 3rd time, almost totally mitigating the risk of a failed tutoring.

Keeping players happy isn't too difficult with Professional players. They're in my B Team so the B Team Manager deals with it and it looks like they're picking up the odd game.

Good luck 

Hey mate couple questions on the B team. Did you find you got any kick back from players in moving them to the B team? Also does the B team budget come out of the 1st team budget?

[martywigham]

Hey Ozil, great work again.

 

Just wondering about PPMs in this and what you look to train players to do. I'd guess there would be liberal use of 'Plays short simple passes' for the defenders and 'Plays one-twos' for most of the others, but are there any others you like to go for in terms of movement etc.? 

[Duke313]

On 21/07/2018 at 12:56, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Introduction to Possession Football

 

  Hide contents

Remaining player instructions are very minimal.

• Goalkeeper distributes ball to centre backs
• Central Midfielders move into the channels, get forward more and run with the ball
• Wingers get forward more
• Striker moves into the channels

 

 

For the CM (S) when you say run with the ball, do you mean the 'dribble more' instruction?

[zlatanera]

3 hours ago, Duke313 said:

For the CM (S) when you say run with the ball, do you mean the 'dribble more' instruction?

See below, and also a screenshot earlier in the thread (I think its one the first page)

On 31/07/2018 at 18:07, JoOSTAR said:

Pretty sure that it's "dribble more", because there are screenshots of his CM's and it shows the "dribble more"

 

 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

***Added 2018/19 Pre-Season development update to post 3***

[drigaco]

Off topic but how do you select tactics for the youth team? I can't select on the tactics screen nor the youth tasks screen.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

24 minutes ago, drigaco said:

Off topic but how do you select tactics for the youth team? I can't select on the tactics screen nor the youth tasks screen.

Staff responsibilities > Under 19s > Set Tactics.

You can either set the same as the first team, let the U19 Manager decide or set a formation.

[steakfaced]

4 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Staff responsibilities > Under 19s > Set Tactics.

You can either set the same as the first team, let the U19 Manager decide or set a formation.

But don't you set a different set of tactics specifically for them? Or is that just your third option in your first team, and when passing days you have it active?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

1 minute ago, steakfaced said:

But don't you set a different set of tactics specifically for them? Or is that just your third option in your first team, and when passing days you have it active?

I set a 4-1-4-1 formation for the U19s which means João Tralhão - U19 Manager - selects the mentality, roles, instructions etc but allows me to control certain things such as using MR/L rather than AMR/L so players build up familiarity their and Dantas selected as a DM etc.

When I give young players an option in the cups that's First Team so obviously I have full control over the tactics.

I don't move players between squads for each game, I use Squad Filters to pick players from the U19s and B Team. Sometimes there will be another match happening at the same time in either of the other teams so I plan ahead and make sure any players I wish to select for the cup match do not play either match.

Selecting players for the U19s and B Team seems to work similarly to "use current team selection when possible" when on holiday.

[steakfaced]

3 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

I set a 4-1-4-1 formation for the U19s which means João Tralhão - U19 Manager - selects the mentality, roles, instructions etc but allows me to control certain things such as using MR/L rather than AMR/L so players build up familiarity their and Dantas selected as a DM etc.

When I give young players an option in the cups that's First Team so obviously I have full control over the tactics.

I don't move players between squads for each game, I use Squad Filters to pick players from the U19s and B Team. Sometimes there will be another match happening at the same time in either of the other teams so I plan ahead and make sure any players I wish to select for the cup match do not play either match.

Selecting players for the U19s and B Team seems to work similarly to "use current team selection when possible" when on holiday.

Ah cheers, it must be me being still on fM17 that I can't do this  btw, I read over parts of this thread literally every single day.

[drigaco]

4 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

I set a 4-1-4-1 formation for the U19s which means João Tralhão - U19 Manager - selects the mentality, roles, instructions etc but allows me to control certain things such as using MR/L rather than AMR/L so players build up familiarity their and Dantas selected as a DM etc.

When I give young players an option in the cups that's First Team so obviously I have full control over the tactics.

I don't move players between squads for each game, I use Squad Filters to pick players from the U19s and B Team. Sometimes there will be another match happening at the same time in either of the other teams so I plan ahead and make sure any players I wish to select for the cup match do not play either match.

Selecting players for the U19s and B Team seems to work similarly to "use current team selection when possible" when on holiday.

So you created that possession tactic just to play in cups with youngsters or you will get into that in the  future?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

3 hours ago, drigaco said:

So you created that possession tactic just to play in cups with youngsters or you will get into that in the  future?

That's the way we are going.

The point I am trying to get across is that the existing squad - particularly Fejsa, Jardel, Luisão and Jones - are exceptional players but suit a different style of play.

The youngsters coming through can play the way I want them to, within reason depending on their ability. As they develop I intend to develop the style of play further.

[Joey Numbaz]

I have been messing around with the possession tactic as one of my three tactics this season. I've got a very good team. Won the EPL the year before, and lost in the Champions League Quarterfinals on away goals. This year we are a solid second (United is just so good come 2021, just amazing signings), and back in the Champions League QFs, we'll see how we do against Bayern, who has dropped to 3rd place in the Bundesliga.

After watching France in the World Cup, I've taken my team the route of prevent goals at all costs and score enough to win. 30 games into the EPL season we have allowed just 18 goals, scoring 57 (United are 74-16, just amazing).

Anyway, the possession tactic is super defensive with my players. But first some perspective.

I adopted this great defense first tactic for this season, although I've made the sweeper a libero-attack and the DLP plays on support  most of the time, not defend, for me. My point is that, this is a very intentional defense first tactic. It's created one clear cut chance every 68 minutes, allowed one every 98 minutes. Against similar rated teams I'm up 14-10, against smaller, I'm up 22-15. Obviously my players are good and I assume they just finish better than my opponents which is why my goal differential is much better than my chance differential. Those numbers are over 2470 minutes.

My second tactic is based on Cleon's art of attacking a 3-4-3 that the game calls a "5-1-1-3 DM WB Wide Asymmetric M (CL)". This is supposed to be much more attacking, though in 757 minutes, I create a chance every 58 minutes and allow one every 94 minutes. Interesting how it doesn't play that much differently than The Great Wall of Italia. I only tend to use it if I am looking for goals. It's 5-6 against similar teams and 8-2 against smaller teams. I should probably use it more when playing teams down the table. But I digress.

I gave the other numbers just to give some perspective of what my team does with other tactics. Pretty similar when deployed in appropriate situations. The 4141 possession tactic here seems to really be a defense first tactic to the extreme. One chance every 103 minutes. One allowed every 124 minutes. In 621 minutes, 6 chances for, 5 against. 3-3 vs. similar teams, 3-2 vs. smaller teams.

I thought seeing some perspective on how it plays out compared to some others might help you with tweaking it to do what you want or spotting some things earlier, since you've only been able to play it in Cups so far.

In table format:

Tactic                                  MinUsed    Min/Ch    Min/ChA    Ch v. SIm  ChA v Sim  Ch v. Sm   ChA v. Sm

Great Wall of Italia                  2470          68            98               14              10               22              15

Cleon Attacking 343                 757           58            94                5                 6                 8                2

Benfica possession                      621         103          124               3                 3                 3                2

I understand that everything plays different based on the players, etc. But by design I have some very versatile players and I am always tweaking and adapting systems. This one seems to be great defensively, especially for closing out games, but could use something to push the offense a little.

I have noticed this with my youth teams too. They are great and win a lot. I've won the EUFA youth league a few times, etc. But with this tactic, I see a bunch of games where we outshoot an opponent, 16-5 or something, get 3 chances (I assume only 0-1 is a CCC though) but only 5 shots on goal and draw 1-1 or 0-0 or something.

Edited August 12, 2018 by Joey Numbaz

[Joey Numbaz]

Yeah, all that stuff I said yesterday, I might have to take it all back.

Holy cow has the possession tactic performed well the last couple of games. Maybe 621 minutes and 6 months of practice isn't quite enough to get perfect with it. But 6 months, 2 weeks and 143 more minutes of playing it? Now it's insane. I guess my sample size was smaller than I realized.

Manchester City, who isn't great anymore, was beating us 3-0, so I switched to this late to just keep it from getting any worse and we played well. So then I used it the next game against Stoke after going up 1-0 and it played great. But then, in the Champions League Quarterfinal v. Bayern, we were up 2-0 at halftime so I went to this again. We dominated the second half, scored two easy goals and played excellent possession soccer. I am really becoming a fan of this.

Since that post in 143 minutes we've created 6 chances and allowed 0.

This is now at a chance every 63 minutes - I created 6 chances the first 621 minutes - and 6 more in the last 143. And we've now only allowed one ever 152 minutes.

Sorry for the premature comments. Nothing to see here. Carry on. Updated chart because why not?

Tactic                                  MinUsed    Min/Ch    Min/ChA    Ch v. SIm  ChA v Sim  Ch v. Sm   ChA v. Sm

Great Wall of Italia                  2664          63            95               18              12               24              16

Cleon Attacking 343                 838           55            83                6                 8                 9                2

Benfica possession                      764          63           152               5                 3                 7                2

I might have to move this to the main tactic. But who knows, maybe it works better as a change of pace. Zig one way then zag at halftime with this?

Edited August 12, 2018 by Joey Numbaz

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Evolving Tactics
 

Let's start with a bit of context, from the 2017/18 season.

 

Starting Team

 

 

Alternating to a counter attacking 4-4-1-1 when the going got tough.

 

League Table

 

 

Champions League

 

 

Key observations: 

1. The title was won by a solid defensive foundation.
   • Relied heavily upon our defence in the Champions League, shutting out Real Madrid and Paris St Germain to reach the semi-finals.
     
     
      
2. Attack was efficient, yet unspectacular.
   • We were very effective against teams who came forward to attack us.
   • Significantly less effective at breaking down teams who sit deep.
   • Tactics in the Portuguese league are reasonably conservative, facing a relatively high proportion of 2 DM formations.
     
     

 

Transfers

 

 

Transfer strategy was to negotiate up and ultimately accept lucrative offers for first team players.

1. Opening opportunities for young players coming through.
2. Establishing a strong financial foundation.

Lautaro Martinez was brought in for the first team as a potential long-term option at striker.

 

 

Lautaro Martinez was chosen for his high potential ability, intelligence - specifically anticipation, decisions and off the ball movement - and well rounded attributes.

 

2018/19 Squad

 

 

Our squad for the 2018/19 season is now pretty much the same defence, a similar midfield and a new look attack.

 

Tactics

 

[Insert diamond related cliche here] 

 

 

There are a few reasons for choosing to play a 4-4-2 diamond.

• We sold our wingers over the summer
  • Felipe & Trincão are coming through but not quite ready to be relied upon
• Accommodates our best players
  • Xadas & Krovinovic in the midfield, alongside Fejsa
  • Cervi plays in a central role
  • Martinez & Talisca up front
• Can be effective against 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 variants.

 

Playing Style

 

Last season our strategy was direct passing, aiming to exploit the pace and skill of attacking players before the opposition can organise their defence.

This season we switch to a Control mentality in exert greater control - obviously - over opponents.

• 4-4-2 diamond is naturally strong in midfield
• Xadas and Krovinovic are both technically skilled, intelligent and hard working
• Opponents in Portugal typically sit quite deep so this allows us to take the game to them.

Last season a Structured team shape to make attacking players more attacking and defensive players more defensive to facilitate a more direct game.

In this system, a Fluid team shape would give us greater creativity and control over central areas.

• Creativity coming from a higher degree of creative freedom
• Control over the centre coming from attacking and defending as a unit.
  • Attackers having a lower mentality making them more likely to be involved in midfield.
  • Defenders having a higher mentality - again - making them more likely to be involved in midfield.

The issue with this is that a number of our key players have quite specialist sets of attributes.

• Jardel & Dias are excellent defenders but - with low passing, technique, first touch & vision - have limited technical ability.
• Talisca is a dangerous attacking player but - with low team work, work rate & defensive attributes - is not inclined to track back, nor would he be effective.

As a result, we line up in a Flexible team shape encouraging players to balance their individual duty with the team mentality and their position on the field as well as giving them a balanced level of creative freedom.

Additional team instructions are:

• Play Out of Defence
  • Rulli is instructed to Distribute to Fullbacks
  • Fullbacks then either dribble forward with the ball themselves or pass into midfield
• Look for Overlap
  • Increases the mentality of my fullbacks
• Exploit the Middle
  • Increases the mentality of my DC(D)s and MC(D) increasing compactness with the Fullbacks & Midfielders on Support duty.

Once again using @fmFutbolManager's Mentality Calculator spreadsheet, we can see how these combine to distribute positive yet balanced mentality throughout the team.

 

 

Players & Roles

 

 

Our core defensive unit is intelligent, brave, strong and good in the air and sets up in a simple DC(D) - DC(D) - MC(D) triangle.

In this instance I choose an MC(D) over a DM(D) to avoid reducing our defensive line and I have a personal preference for using players in bands.

 

 

Ahead of our defensive core we have a midfield unit of intelligent, technical and hard working players.

Our wide Central Midfielders are Carrilero (Support):

 

 

Shuttling between the lines of midfield is perfect for this system:

• Moving into the AM strata to create a 3v2 against opposition 2x DM formations.
• Dropping deep alongside the holding midfielder to create a solid defensive block.
• Covering lateral spaces in the absence of an additional wide player on the flanks.
• Both are asked to Run Wide with the Ball to add some dynamism to our attack.

Notice how the combination of Team Mentality, Duty and Shape gives them a balanced, yet expansive Individual Mentality - exactly as I like a midfield to play.

 

 

Finally we have a 3-man attacking unit.

• Franco Cervi is an Attacking Midfielder (Support) asked to dribble more, aiming to cause havoc ahead of the opposition defenders.
• Lautaro Martinez is a Complete Forward (Support) roaming from position to create space for others and take advantage of space wide.
• Talisca is an Advanced Foward (Attack) as he has the best finishing and movement of the three.

 

In the Match Engine

 

 

Welcome to Benfica vs Porto, one of the key matches deciding the Primeira Liga.

 

 

Porto line up in the 4-2-3-1 DM which we struggled to break down - drawing 0-0 home and away with Porto - last season.

 

Defensive Shape

 

 

Porto are looking to build an attack through their wingback, Alex Telles and we have formed out default medium block defence.

• Solid four man defence.
• Diamond midfield shifts across, shielding the defence.
• Carrileros take wider positions, closely supporting the wingback.
• Cervi drops into midfield.
• Martinez drops deeper, pressuring the opposition DMs.

The strong medium block defence doesn't put pressure on Porto high up the field. Instead it limits their options:

1. Attempt to attack wide and cross.
2. Go in-field to their defensive midfielders and attempt to build from there.

This is also a good example of why I do not like 4-4-2 diamond for high-pressing defensive set ups, unless I have extremely hard working & intelligent strikers.

1. Opposition fullbacks are in acres of space so act as an immediate 'pressure valve' for the opposition.
2. The distance any player would have to travel to press means a) they'd open a gap and b) the ball would be long-gone by the time they got there.

 

 

When Porto try to attack wide, we see this shape.

• Right sided Carrilero is again tucked in very close in support of the wingback.
• Fejsa is marking the opposition AM whilst our centre backs have a 2v1 ahead of the attacker.
• Cervi and Martinez have both dropped deep, putting pressure on opposition DMs should they wish to recycle possession.

 

 

Alternatively, when they go centrally they just run into heavy traffic.

 

Attacking Shape

 

 

Similarly to Porto, we also build up through our fullbacks.

• Porto have a reasonably strong defensive structure.
• Their Wingers are defending narrow which would be an issue if we were looking to play through our defensive midfielder.
• Fernandes is under no pressure and has plenty of space to take the ball forward himself.
• Our right sided Carrilero - in this instance Luis - can attack a really dangerous position outside of the opposition DM.
  • The opposition could press with the left back and leave space for Fernandes to overlap.
  • ..or the DM and open space for Cervi.
  • ..or the DC and Talisca has an open run at goal.
• As play develops we also have Xadas and Grimaldo both in fairly open space on the opposite flank.

 

 

This time we attack through the middle.

• Porto once again have a strong defensive set up.
  • Their AMC is putting pressure in Fejsa, who is OK but not the best on the ball.
  • Their AMR/L are tracking our wingbacks and cutting off a pass.
  • They have 2 DMCs shielding their back four.
• Despite all of this, look at the space Florentino Luis finds himself in.
• Our Carrilero's have advanced towards the AM strata, creating a 3v2 in "Zone 14".
• This time he is our pressure valve.
• One pass and we have escaped the Porto press.
• Once we hit Luis - again - we have options.
  • Fernandes will be making an overlapping run on the right and difficult to mark for the AML
  • DMCs shifting across opens space for either Cervi or Xadas.
  • Centre back coming forward leaves a striker free.

 

 

Another similar scenario. This time Cervi on the ball in the Attacking Midfield position.

• Again, Porto are well structured defensively.
  • AMR, AML and AMC have all dropped back into midfield.
  • Cervi is under pressure in a crowded midfield.
• Again, the Carrilero advances into that AM position in the half-space and is in acres of space.
• Again, Luis has options.
  • Draw the fullback and play Fernandes in behind to cross.
  • Attempt to play a through ball to Talisca if the central defender presses.

 

 

2018/19 League Table

 

 

Champions League

 

 

Summary

 

• Goals scored, up.
  
  
   
• Goals conceded, down.
  
  
   
• Possession %, up.
  
  

 

Very solid season indeed 

Although something tells me that next season we might line up a little differently..

 

 

Edited August 11, 2018 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[Gegenklaus]

Nice update, Özil and cool new system. Funnily enough I have just read this from spielverlagerung: https://spielverlagerung.com/2018/08/10/how-to-break-a-low-5-4-1-block-with-guardiolas-positional-play/#comments

The suggested system, that AO writes about in that article, looks quite identical with your new system. At least the structure of it - especially the use of the carrielos and the diamond - and using a number 10 to pin a DM and two strikers to pin down the centerbacks and the WB's to hold the width and stretch opponents fullbacks. I am experimenting with a system like that - with the main purpose to break down those Burnley busses with Liverpool.

Keep us updated!

[steakfaced]

3 hours ago, Gegenklaus said:

Nice update, Özil and cool new system. Funnily enough I have just read this from spielverlagerung: https://spielverlagerung.com/2018/08/10/how-to-break-a-low-5-4-1-block-with-guardiolas-positional-play/#comments

The suggested system, that AO writes about in that article, looks quite identical with your new system. At least the structure of it - especially the use of the carrielos and the diamond - and using a number 10 to pin a DM and two strikers to pin down the centerbacks and the WB's to hold the width and stretch opponents fullbacks. I am experimenting with a system like that - with the main purpose to break down those Burnley busses with Liverpool.

Keep us updated!

Hah I have this open in my tabs!!

 

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! thanks for the update! I love how you look at the game and an interesting setup for the following season. Unfortunately on FM17 and can't use the new midfield positions, but it's good to see your formation change so easily and fluid. The mentality calculator has changed my life but one quick question;

Where does it say look for overlap increases mentality? My understanding is exploit the flanks / middle increases it, but as there's no option on the calculator for look for overlap, it wouldn't change it. If true, I need to re-evaluate how I play. I'm currently doing a City save and made a few tweaks to the way I play after losing the league but winning everything else. I didn't realize the ePL had a wage cap and I might have to make up for the loss of 5 points later whoops  I've never actually been a big team like this before so I got carried away with the wages of two new signings (plus everyone returning from loan)

Have you ever considered using the half back? As far as I know its the only player available to truly split the CBs in a buildup system like that. I tend to use that role just for build up, but find sometimes he doesn't stay far back enough and acts similar to a DM/S

 

Will you be breaking down the two legs against City? And a final question, who were the two losses?

Edit: Where were you playing Filipe? It says he plays at MR..

Edited August 12, 2018 by steakfaced

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

10 hours ago, Gegenklaus said:

Nice update, Özil and cool new system. Funnily enough I have just read this from spielverlagerung: https://spielverlagerung.com/2018/08/10/how-to-break-a-low-5-4-1-block-with-guardiolas-positional-play/#comments

The suggested system, that AO writes about in that article, looks quite identical with your new system. At least the structure of it - especially the use of the carrielos and the diamond - and using a number 10 to pin a DM and two strikers to pin down the centerbacks and the WB's to hold the width and stretch opponents fullbacks. I am experimenting with a system like that - with the main purpose to break down those Burnley busses with Liverpool.

Keep us updated!

Ah, yes. That's interesting. Thank you for sharing.

I actually have not faced a 5-4-1 in Portugal but the principles are similar.

 

6 hours ago, steakfaced said:

Hah I have this open in my tabs!!

 

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! thanks for the update! I love how you look at the game and an interesting setup for the following season. Unfortunately on FM17 and can't use the new midfield positions, but it's good to see your formation change so easily and fluid. The mentality calculator has changed my life but one quick question;

Where does it say look for overlap increases mentality? My understanding is exploit the flanks / middle increases it, but as there's no option on the calculator for look for overlap, it wouldn't change it. If true, I need to re-evaluate how I play. I'm currently doing a City save and made a few tweaks to the way I play after losing the league but winning everything else. I didn't realize the ePL had a wage cap and I might have to make up for the loss of 5 points later whoops  I've never actually been a big team like this before so I got carried away with the wages of two new signings (plus everyone returning from loan)

Have you ever considered using the half back? As far as I know its the only player available to truly split the CBs in a buildup system like that. I tend to use that role just for build up, but find sometimes he doesn't stay far back enough and acts similar to a DM/S

 

Will you be breaking down the two legs against City? And a final question, who were the two losses?

Edit: Where were you playing Filipe? It says he plays at MR..

Ah, no. There are a few things which just come from experience & experimentation.

If you're on FM 2017, one of the most useful things you can do is modify your skin to show individual mentality - then you can see for yourself exactly what's going on.

The mentality calculator is excellent, but not quite 100% accurate. I think there are too many variables to reach 100%. I recommend using it as a sanity check and double checking in-game.

There are a few useful modifiers I've come across:

• If no player is assigned Attack duty, the individual mentality of every player on Support is increased.
  • Massive application, for me. Surprised more aren't using this. I love it. Incredible football.
  • This does not apply to every Mentality / Shape combination, so always double check.
  • Only really relevant on Control & above, otherwise the starting mentality of a Support player is too low in the first place.
• Exploit the Middle increases the mentality of DC, DMC, and MC players on Defend and DMC players on Support.
  • Useful application creating compactness in the centre without using a more fluid shape.
• Look for Overlap increases the mentality of DR/DL and decreases mentality of MR/L or AMR/L.
  • Useful application creating compactness on the flanks without using a more fluid shape.
  • Eg. in my Standard, Structured 4-2-3-1 without Overlap my Wingbacks have a mentality of 8 and Wingers have 11. Add Overlap and both Wingbacks & Wingers are on 10 which gives me a nice compact flank, perfectly balanced and both contributing forward and getting back.

There's bound to be more but those are the few I have spotted and use regularly.

Finally, Felipe..

 

 

The 4-1-4-1 is alive and well in the cups and matches where I can rotate in the league.

Edited August 12, 2018 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[leesmith90]

Great update. Your writing is excellent. Do you have an idea as to where you would like your tactics to end up in the future? I.e. do you think you’re likely to stick with your current formations? Do you plan on going fluid and eventually very fluid when certain players have developed/been upgraded?