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Caixa Futebol Academy: Youth Development & Adapting Tactics


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On 18/10/2021 at 23:48, ElJefe4 said:

Got to drop in and say a big thank you to the main man @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! for the inspiration this thread has provided. Using many of the principles of this thread we've managed an unbeaten league season and our first Champions League win. Came very close to both of these achievements before, with just a single league defeat in each of the 2 previous seasons and an agonizing 120th minute winning goal conceded to Man United in last year's final - finally this year we got over the line to reach both targets!

This has been done with largely the squad I started with and a handful of additions. I came into a very talented young squad, unfortunately most of them were already established first teamers so couldn't be tutored (hence lots of balanced personalities). The success definitely wouldn't have happened without the knowledge I've picked up through multiple read throughs of this thread! The next step is the introduction of some more youth team players that have been developing nicely in the B Team and U19's over the past couple of years.

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Very good mate. I like that Ajax squad at the start, some good players who suit a solid 4-3-3.

Did you do anything special?

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On 20/10/2021 at 21:00, Garrlor said:

Very good mate. I like that Ajax squad at the start, some good players who suit a solid 4-3-3.

Did you do anything special?

Thanks mate. Didn't do anything particularly special, no. The temptation early on was to play Fluid/Very Fluid football as we were already comfortably better than most teams in Holland. Resisted temptation and stuck to controlled, structured possession play which has proved very successful, particularly in Europe against stronger sides. Basically just tried to take as much from O-Zil as possible! 

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After having some time away from FM due to personal family reasons etc i have decided to come back and have a go during some down time - just downloaded FM22 beta, the last FM i played properly was FM18, briefly buying and doing one pre-season on FM19 before stopping... needless to say FM22 is a big change BUT im not sure i like it as much as i did FM18? revisiting this thread to wet the appetite and for some inspiration has really got me wondering if i should just go back to FM18, anybody else feeling the same?

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On 05/10/2021 at 17:06, kandersson said:

This thread has been amazing for YEARS now, thank you! The high-intensity 3-4-3 and 4-2-4 are still my main source of inspirarion! Honestly the best part of the new Wide Centre-Back role for FM22 is a potential new thread of yours of the 3-4-3 diamond :D

It won't be as things are going :( fm22 is failing to impress! 

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  • 3 weeks later...
15 hours ago, Pattric_b said:

What a player Leao is. Surprised no one has managed to lure him away yet. Incredible success otherwise and beautiful attacking football. 

Excited to see what you do on Fm22!


Haha, yes. He's doing alright. To be honest, the other major European clubs are in a bit of turmoil at the moment. Lots of older players on big contracts. There's not massive transfer fees floating around. He's just turned 28. I think if anyone wanted to take him, I'd demand Neymar-money but I don't think that's happening. It's worked out pretty well keeping Dantas and Leao in key positions and rebuild the rest of the team around them.


 

11 hours ago, steakfaced said:

Uhm... cann you tell us more about the two legs versus Juventus??


Absolute collapse, to be honest. They're certainly not what they were. The highlights playing against sides in black and white are from that game.

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I think its safe to say that you may have just cracked the match engine there mate. That football is just outrageous, if Pep ever saw it I think he would explode! The dedication to squad building you have is just stunning, like you said you are reaping the seeds of what you have sown - which is the best club side in a generation. A quick question on scouting if I may? Do you have any particualar tricks that you use? Or do you just set scouts to look for young players in countries and then cherry pick the best and brightest?

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21 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:


Haha yes, I agree. The match engine really cannot deal with a team attacking and defending as a complete unit. Actually, I think modern football evolved quite considerably between around 2019 and now, so applying these principles in 2018 does crack the match engine somewhat. Particularly when you combine it with a conveyor belt of talent coming through the best academy in the world.

My most successful approach to scouting as been to specialise my scouting on areas the club has an advantage:

  1. Domestically, we pretty much follow the Bayern-model; hoovering up all domestic talent from within Portugal.
    • Most academy players are actually signed at 16-17 from other Portuguese clubs.
    • I use filters to scout all U16s on intake day. They won't usually sign immediately but I shortlist the good ones and sign them when they become available.
    • I prioritise work rate, team work and potential ability. The rest can be developed through training and tutoring.
    • Volume - it's a numbers game. Don't over-think it; searching for the perfect 16 year old wonderkid. If there's a spot available in your U19s, fill it. It costs almost nothing to sign a 16/17 year old, tutor them and give them 1-2 years in the academy and see what they look like. Overall our hit rate can only be about 10% but that's enough to build a great team and you can at least make some profit on those who make progress but not quite enough.
  2. Immigration laws give us an advantage signing players from outside of Europe as they turn 18.
    • We have feeder clubs and scouts all over South America and - more recently - Africa.
    • Not quite so productive as a) they come with a transfer fee and b) they cannot sign until 18 meaning they get 1-2 years less in the academy (unless they come directly through the feeder club, but you cannot control that).
    • Common pathway is sign and enter Benfica B for a year, loan out for a year, sell for a profit. Exceptional players reach the first team.

Overall my main sources of players have been:

  1. Signed young, from domestic clubs and put through the academy (Fernandes, Valentim, Costa, Soares, Barbosa)
  2. Own academy products (Alves, Lisboa, Nkosi, Xavier, Teixeira, Serrano)
  3. Feeder club players coming through our academy (Leao, Cesar, Mpakumpaku, Shabala, Sow, Carlos)
  4. Signing players from outside of Europe at 18 (Mahao, Elvis, Helix, Leandro Perreira)

Nice! Which FM is this?😊

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi, @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

Following on from he discussion that started in the Arsenal thread, I have made an attempt on replicating the controlled possession 4-3-3s in FM22.

A "positive" mentality gives a bigger spread of individual mentality, so "attacking" is the option for making it more compact throughout the team.

The IF/Wb version gives this individual mentalities:

GK: Balanced
DR: Attacking
DC: Balanced
DC: Balanced
DL: Attacking
DM: Balanced
MCR: Positive
MCL: Positive
AMR: Attacking
AML: Attacking
ST: Attacking

image.png.209f456474230517da9ecd796582f280.png

 

The 4-3-3 with IWB and Wingers I can make with the same individual mentalities.

image.png.62585857a0b798ba3b5abba03d8445f9.png

I would wish that my striker was on positive and that the Mezz was on attacking, but thats not possible. All att roles for a MC goes to very attacking and all support roles for a striker is atleast attacking.

I`ll give them a run in-game and see how they play in the ME.

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Il y a 1 heure, AndersAas a dit :

Hi, @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

Following on from he discussion that started in the Arsenal thread, I have made an attempt on replicating the controlled possession 4-3-3s in FM22.

A "positive" mentality gives a bigger spread of individual mentality, so "attacking" is the option for making it more compact throughout the team.

The IF/Wb version gives this individual mentalities:

GK: Balanced
DR: Attacking
DC: Balanced
DC: Balanced
DL: Attacking
DM: Balanced
MCR: Positive
MCL: Positive
AMR: Attacking
AML: Attacking
ST: Attacking

image.png.209f456474230517da9ecd796582f280.png

 

The 4-3-3 with IWB and Wingers I can make with the same individual mentalities.

image.png.62585857a0b798ba3b5abba03d8445f9.png

I would wish that my striker was on positive and that the Mezz was on attacking, but thats not possible. All att roles for a MC goes to very attacking and all support roles for a striker is atleast attacking.

I`ll give them a run in-game and see how they play in the ME.

Can you explain more your formations (the idea behind IWB/W and WB/If) and why different roles for the 3 midfielders.

Thanks.

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7 horas atrás, AndersAas disse:

Hi, @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

Following on from he discussion that started in the Arsenal thread, I have made an attempt on replicating the controlled possession 4-3-3s in FM22.

A "positive" mentality gives a bigger spread of individual mentality, so "attacking" is the option for making it more compact throughout the team.

The IF/Wb version gives this individual mentalities:

GK: Balanced
DR: Attacking
DC: Balanced
DC: Balanced
DL: Attacking
DM: Balanced
MCR: Positive
MCL: Positive
AMR: Attacking
AML: Attacking
ST: Attacking

image.png.209f456474230517da9ecd796582f280.png

 

The 4-3-3 with IWB and Wingers I can make with the same individual mentalities.

image.png.62585857a0b798ba3b5abba03d8445f9.png

I would wish that my striker was on positive and that the Mezz was on attacking, but thats not possible. All att roles for a MC goes to very attacking and all support roles for a striker is atleast attacking.

I`ll give them a run in-game and see how they play in the ME.

Thanks !!!

you save my game 

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7 hours ago, coach vahid said:

Can you explain more your formations (the idea behind IWB/W and WB/If) and why different roles for the 3 midfielders.

Thanks.

This is only a copy of @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!s tactics he used earlier in his Benfica save. He has explained his tactics through and throuh in  an excellent way

1 hour ago, cristhianlinhatti said:

Thanks !!!

you save my game 

Credit should be placed where credit is due. This is all @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

 

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 07/12/2021 at 11:20, AndersAas said:

Hi, @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

Following on from he discussion that started in the Arsenal thread, I have made an attempt on replicating the controlled possession 4-3-3s in FM22.

A "positive" mentality gives a bigger spread of individual mentality, so "attacking" is the option for making it more compact throughout the team.

The IF/Wb version gives this individual mentalities:

GK: Balanced
DR: Attacking
DC: Balanced
DC: Balanced
DL: Attacking
DM: Balanced
MCR: Positive
MCL: Positive
AMR: Attacking
AML: Attacking
ST: Attacking

image.png.209f456474230517da9ecd796582f280.png

 

The 4-3-3 with IWB and Wingers I can make with the same individual mentalities.

image.png.62585857a0b798ba3b5abba03d8445f9.png

I would wish that my striker was on positive and that the Mezz was on attacking, but thats not possible. All att roles for a MC goes to very attacking and all support roles for a striker is atleast attacking.

I`ll give them a run in-game and see how they play in the ME.


Fantastic! :applause: Thank you for sharing. Very similar to how I have been playing so far in FM2022.

Edited by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!
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On 07.12.2021 at 12:20, AndersAas said:

Hi, @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

Following on from he discussion that started in the Arsenal thread, I have made an attempt on replicating the controlled possession 4-3-3s in FM22.

A "positive" mentality gives a bigger spread of individual mentality, so "attacking" is the option for making it more compact throughout the team.

The IF/Wb version gives this individual mentalities:

GK: Balanced
DR: Attacking
DC: Balanced
DC: Balanced
DL: Attacking
DM: Balanced
MCR: Positive
MCL: Positive
AMR: Attacking
AML: Attacking
ST: Attacking

image.png.209f456474230517da9ecd796582f280.png

 

The 4-3-3 with IWB and Wingers I can make with the same individual mentalities.

image.png.62585857a0b798ba3b5abba03d8445f9.png

I would wish that my striker was on positive and that the Mezz was on attacking, but thats not possible. All att roles for a MC goes to very attacking and all support roles for a striker is atleast attacking.

I`ll give them a run in-game and see how they play in the ME.

PI?

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...
On 10/01/2022 at 12:27, ultrAslan said:

Will you do this same concept in newer FM releases? 


Good question :) It's not out of the question; until now, time has been the issue but I have some weeks off. Now it's just a case of settling on a club.

Benfica have another good crop, but it feels a bit close to home right now :lol: They also seem to have a lack of wide players. Barcelona have a seemingly generational group of talents coming through and Ajax have another outstanding crop of young players coming through.

Right now, I am really enjoying an Arsenal save with Saka, ESR, Martinelli, Odegaard, Patino & co. tearing everything apart but my own personal biases are going to prevent it being a long term save as I am emotionally unable to sell anyone in order to bring through the next generation :lol:

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Incidentally, one of the most common questions people have asked over the course of this thread is how to approach this style of youth development club in the Premier League; assuming - as did I - that playing in the Premier League would take this to another level given the TV deal etc.

Having played a couple of seasons with Arsenal and their crop of players coming through, I have noticed that - despite the massive TV income - the Premier League isn't necessarily ideal.

Firstly, it's very difficult to blood young players. The jump from PL2 to Premier League is massive and the average mid-table Premier League side is very tough for young players. It's very risky when you're competing with Guardiola's Man City - who signed Mbappe in my save - and Klopp's Liverpool consistently putting up 90-100 point seasons!

Secondly, and perhaps moreover, is it's actually very difficult to sell players.

For example, I extended Nketiah's contract and gradually brought him through. He's 23 years old, valued at £70-78m and has 15 goals in 17 games for England. However, he's behind Martinelli in the pecking order and has Reiss Nelson, Amani Hutchinson and Amani Richards breathing down his neck. Holding on to him slows each of their development.

At Benfica I'd offer him out when he has a couple of years left on his contract and sell him to Man City, Chelsea or Man Utd for £100m+ but right now that means strengthening a direct opponent. If I don't want to strengthen a domestic rival, then I have to go to one of the European "giants" many of whom are in financial trouble and even those who aren't are a long way off the English clubs budget.

The comparison between FM18 and FM22 also means many of the European clubs were relatively wealthier also.

So far, the TV revenue is - of course - nice but it is not replacing the billions I was able to rack up in transfer revenue at Benfica. 

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15 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Incidentally, one of the most common questions people have asked over the course of this thread is how to approach this style of youth development club in the Premier League; assuming - as did I - that playing in the Premier League would take this to another level given the TV deal etc.

Having played a couple of seasons with Arsenal and their crop of players coming through, I have noticed that - despite the massive TV income - the Premier League isn't necessarily ideal.

Firstly, it's very difficult to blood young players. The jump from PL2 to Premier League is massive and the average mid-table Premier League side is very tough for young players. It's very risky when you're competing with Guardiola's Man City - who signed Mbappe in my save - and Klopp's Liverpool consistently putting up 90-100 point seasons!

Secondly, and perhaps moreover, is it's actually very difficult to sell players.

For example, I extended Nketiah's contract and gradually brought him through. He's 23 years old, valued at £70-78m and has 15 goals in 17 games for England. However, he's behind Martinelli in the pecking order and has Reiss Nelson, Amani Hutchinson and Amani Richards breathing down his neck. Holding on to him slows each of their development.

At Benfica I'd offer him out when he has a couple of years left on his contract and sell him to Man City, Chelsea or Man Utd for £100m+ but right now that means strengthening a direct opponent. If I don't want to strengthen a domestic rival, then I have to go to one of the European "giants" many of whom are in financial trouble and even those who aren't are a long way off the English clubs budget.

The comparison between FM18 and FM22 also means many of the European clubs were relatively wealthier also.

So far, the TV revenue is - of course - nice but it is not replacing the billions I was able to rack up in transfer revenue at Benfica. 

Curious if starting out with say a Brentford (who currently operate that buy low/sell high model) or Leeds might be better suited for your approach. You can still blood youngsters and sell them onto domestic rivals, whilst bringing the next batch through. Could make for an extremely challenging save success-wise, it will ultimately lead to a Benfica-like super team but will probably take a good while longer.

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On 15/02/2022 at 07:57, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Incidentally, one of the most common questions people have asked over the course of this thread is how to approach this style of youth development club in the Premier League; assuming - as did I - that playing in the Premier League would take this to another level given the TV deal etc.

Having played a couple of seasons with Arsenal and their crop of players coming through, I have noticed that - despite the massive TV income - the Premier League isn't necessarily ideal.

Firstly, it's very difficult to blood young players. The jump from PL2 to Premier League is massive and the average mid-table Premier League side is very tough for young players. It's very risky when you're competing with Guardiola's Man City - who signed Mbappe in my save - and Klopp's Liverpool consistently putting up 90-100 point seasons!

Secondly, and perhaps moreover, is it's actually very difficult to sell players.

For example, I extended Nketiah's contract and gradually brought him through. He's 23 years old, valued at £70-78m and has 15 goals in 17 games for England. However, he's behind Martinelli in the pecking order and has Reiss Nelson, Amani Hutchinson and Amani Richards breathing down his neck. Holding on to him slows each of their development.

At Benfica I'd offer him out when he has a couple of years left on his contract and sell him to Man City, Chelsea or Man Utd for £100m+ but right now that means strengthening a direct opponent. If I don't want to strengthen a domestic rival, then I have to go to one of the European "giants" many of whom are in financial trouble and even those who aren't are a long way off the English clubs budget.

The comparison between FM18 and FM22 also means many of the European clubs were relatively wealthier also.

So far, the TV revenue is - of course - nice but it is not replacing the billions I was able to rack up in transfer revenue at Benfica. 

This is an interesting insight, and something I never really considered but the dynamic is very different. I'd also be keen to know how you're approaching training + mentoring, now that both of these things are pretty different from FM18. Iirc training was broken down into 'tactical' blocks etc, and it was pretty easy to change player personality. Are you finding it harder, or just take a different approach now?

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@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! One thing i've never managed having see you do it so many times is train a young player to become either footed.

What is your method for doing this?

Currently I train the Train "Attempts to Develop Weaker Foot" and then once this happens if successful they usually have this trait for a while.  Not sure how long?  And then it goes away and my player is still predominately one footed.  I do sometimes see a change from Reasonable to Strong on their weaker foot.  But I never get to whether they become EITHER footed.

I'm assuming you train the trait multiple times?  But do you have to wait for it to disappear first after the first set of training?  Or do you train a different trait in-between two bouts of "Weaker Foot' training?

 

 

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I just read this thread from start to finish. What a career! I’ve struggled figuring out where to start my journey as my journeyman save have died a little, but maybe an adventure in Portugal is the way to go with one of the big three. 

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On 16/02/2022 at 02:39, Deego619 said:

Curious if starting out with say a Brentford (who currently operate that buy low/sell high model) or Leeds might be better suited for your approach. You can still blood youngsters and sell them onto domestic rivals, whilst bringing the next batch through. Could make for an extremely challenging save success-wise, it will ultimately lead to a Benfica-like super team but will probably take a good while longer.


Well selling to clubs as a strategy risks creating more of a ceiling above you, which you then have to compete with.

Saying that, ultimately any club who invests in the academy and churns out top level players will ultimately take over; cherrypicking the best for the team and selling the rest for profit.

My point is that - at the time - I was looking at the Premier League clubs thinking it would be ideal to have the broadcast revenue, but experience now tells me that selling into all major leagues can be far more lucrative than being one of the clubs in the wealthier leagues yourselves.

Over my entire save, we generated £3.25bn in transfer revenue over 17 seasons.

  • £683.5m Manchester City 
  • £355m Manchester United
  • £354.5m to Real Madrid
  • £348m to Barcelona
  • £200.5m to PSG
  • £184.75m Chelsea
  • £147m to Monaco
  • £116.5m to Arsenal
  • £114.25m to Bayern
  • £101.5m to Juventus

If we were competing in the Premier League, we'd have put well over £1bn of players into rivals. Some of those European giants are also in a worse financial situation today.

Extra broadcasting money isn't going to cover it.


 

On 16/02/2022 at 23:31, milestobudapest said:

This is an interesting insight, and something I never really considered but the dynamic is very different. I'd also be keen to know how you're approaching training + mentoring, now that both of these things are pretty different from FM18. Iirc training was broken down into 'tactical' blocks etc, and it was pretty easy to change player personality. Are you finding it harder, or just take a different approach now?


I would say different; tutoring is - of course - far less responsive, but attribute development seems to be considerably more responsive to training.

Given that the purpose of tutoring was always to improve professionalism in order to help players develop, if you can develop players directly with training then I'm all for it.

Overall, training is actually far more functional. It takes some admin work but really like it.

That said, I am managing Arsenal so I have a high potential squad, getting lots of game time, world class facilities and top quality coaches but even then I am impressed with the development.

 

20 hours ago, KingRoyston said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! One thing i've never managed having see you do it so many times is train a young player to become either footed.

What is your method for doing this?

Currently I train the Train "Attempts to Develop Weaker Foot" and then once this happens if successful they usually have this trait for a while.  Not sure how long?  And then it goes away and my player is still predominately one footed.  I do sometimes see a change from Reasonable to Strong on their weaker foot.  But I never get to whether they become EITHER footed.

I'm assuming you train the trait multiple times?  But do you have to wait for it to disappear first after the first set of training?  Or do you train a different trait in-between two bouts of "Weaker Foot' training?


Yes, I have also found developing the weaker foot to be more difficult in Football Manager 2022 but I do still prioritise it.

In Football Manager 2018 I would:

  • Tutor players as soon as they arrive in the academy (usually finished by approx 17-18 years old)
  • One season to train any desirable traits or untrain any undesirable ones (usually finished by 18-19 years old)
  • 2-3 seasons working on their weaker foot (say until 20-21 years old)

Meaning that by the age of 21 players have a good personality, the traits to fit into my system and are either two-footed or at least not badly one footed.

It's much easier to do it when players are young. In most cases you can improve a high potential young player from "Right/Left Only" to "Right/Left" or from "Right/Left" to Either within a few seasons.

In FM2022 it seems to work a bit differently so I cannot really comment yet.


 

3 hours ago, Lasson said:

I just read this thread from start to finish. What a career! I’ve struggled figuring out where to start my journey as my journeyman save have died a little, but maybe an adventure in Portugal is the way to go with one of the big three. 


Thank you! :thup: Good luck in Portugal! 

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After the new update i am thinking of starting a long-term save with the same approach with Ajax or Benfica. @Ö-zil to the Arsenal how do you approach first-team signings? And also how do you handle tutoring in the fm22? Do you promote the youngsters you want to tutor on the first-team squad? Finally I think anyone here would love to hear how do you approach the training in this game. Thanks in advance! huge fan of your threads :D:applause:

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1 minute ago, Saras-13-Bodiroga said:

After the new update i am thinking of starting a long-term save with the same approach with Ajax or Benfica. @Ö-zil to the Arsenal how do you approach first-team signings? And also how do you handle tutoring in the fm22? Do you promote the youngsters you want to tutor on the first-team squad? Finally I think anyone here would love to hear how do you approach the training in this game. Thanks in advance! huge fan of your threads :D:applause:

+1 would love a write up on your training methods.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Read through the last several pages, great stuff as always. Have you ever tried a RB Salzburg/Leipzig style of play? Heavy pressing, quick transitions and I'd imagine highly structured? I'd be curious your take on it.

Edited by anxiousAnarchist
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