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Caixa Futebol Academy: Youth Development & Adapting Tactics


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17 hours ago, FJW said:

How would you set up a 3-4-2-1 formation? I ask as it’s such a popular formation in recent years IRL.


That's a really good question; possibly an entire thread of it's own to give a thorough answer :lol:

I love the 3-4-2-1, however it's a formation with it's own strengths and weaknesses and it doesn't necessarily suit the way I am playing with Benfica.

Personally I like 3-4-2-1 as a medium or low block pressing system. In a high-block - such as the system I play at Benfica - it suffers from only having 3 players in advanced positions to press and the double pivot is typically a little deeper than you could afford playing a 3-man midfield in a 4-3-3.

The second 'con' is that it costs me an attacking player. In recent saves, I have been trying to create a 3-1-6 in attack whereas the 3-4-2-1 naturally gives a 3-2-5 attacking shape. 3-2-5 is still a great attacking shape, but it's different to my current approach.

This is not intended to put anyone off.

Actually one of my best saves at the moment is employing a 3-4-2-1 variant but it's a very different side. 3-4-2-1 could be argued to be a very advantageous formation given the state of modern football:

  1. The ease in which it transitions between a 5-4-1 defensive shape and a 3-2-5 attacking shape.
  2. Defensively the back 5-man defence helps counter-act the tendency for modern coaches to play 2-3-5/3-2-5 attacking variants.

Hope this helps :thup:

 

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Ozil... are you going to do more on your FC United save thread? I'd be super keen to see what you've been up to. I promised to share my tactically evolution of AS Cannes on there too!

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On 30/05/2021 at 12:56, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

 

My idea, was to bring together a combination of the collective, high-intensity pressing and high-tempo possession played in earlier seasons, with the 3-4-3 diamond.


 


image.png.5acdc612f0e11291d7b609a6b7bc69eb.png


The idea was fairly simple:

  • The centre forward to occupy opposition defenders and act as a focal point for the attack.
  • Two high and wide wingers.
  • A midfield diamond.
  • A 3-1 diamond to build up from the back
  • Leao in an completely free role.

The mentality structure was:
 


        15
17      17      17
    17      17
        15
  15    15    15
        15


The shape also allows us to seamlessly rotate in the most talented young players at the club.


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Results were spectacular. I actually think we nearly broke the match engine :lol:


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I actually think we nearly broke the match engine :lol:


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Ultimately we stormed our way to our 13th Champions League title, equalling Real Madrid.


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All the while, playing some spectacular football :applause:


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:applause:

 

This looks absolutely incredible :lol: :applause: 

Putting together a genuinely workable Cruyff-esque 3-4-3 has always been a goal of mine but I've never cracked it. I actually asked not long ago if you'd used a 3 at the back with this side in the hope you'd post something like this so I could nab it!

How does this 3-4-3 compare to your FM16 Cruyff 3-4-3 tactic? More or less similar to the real life Dream Team? That is, if a Football Manager side that scores 42 goals in a Champions League knockout stage can be compared in any way to anything we've seen in real life. :lol:

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On 09/06/2021 at 14:58, woodyy2r said:

Ozil... are you going to do more on your FC United save thread? I'd be super keen to see what you've been up to. I promised to share my tactically evolution of AS Cannes on there too!


Possibly. Playing an English club and a lower league side are probably the most common request.

I actually made the decision to re-run the save. Firstly, I am not particularly experienced at motoring through the football league system so I learnt a lot during my first run through which I would now like to apply. Secondly, I was using an unofficial update which unbalanced the game. Ole Gunnar Solksjaer got Manchester United relegated playing an obscure 3-1-5-1 and retrained Aaron Wan Bassaka as a striker :lol:

I've become a lot more pragmatic tactically and had to be a lot more resourceful in attracting the right players. Essentially it's almost a pre-cursor to this thread; building the foundations of a football club which took Benfica to the level they are in this save.

If I do go ahead with a thread, I would want to make it as replicable as possible; not relying on getting lucky with newgens or lucrative cup runs.
 

On 09/06/2021 at 14:58, woodyy2r said:

I'm assuming this is the 3421 tactic mentioned


Good guess! :lol:


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2d1d106b893eea50c725f990fd24d42b.gif


Not bad for a semi-professional, non-league side :D

Edited by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!
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On 01/06/2021 at 10:58, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:


Again, fairly minimal:

  • Goalkeeper distribution to centre backs
  • MCR/L and ST move into channels
  • AM roam from position

Think that's it, off the top of my head.

Yes, I actually think it would work best with a Control mentality. The weakness is clearly defence, so having the ball as much as possible mitigates that and the general formation should be able to control possession really well.

My biggest concern would be in the overall quality of the team, I would re-think if we weren't such a dominant side as the lack of wide defenders is a clear weak-spot.

Enjoy :thup:

Pretty good with control mentality!

DolbergNice.gif

Can't beat a back to front team goal with every single player involved.

Edited by ElJefe4
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Hi, it's long time i like to replicate your style of play and your youth vision but in a save in france.

English is not my first langage, i think i don't understand everything in the post.

 

I would like to play like your 4-3-3 strikerless like you but results are very poor for me. Did i miss some individuals instructions ? Or PPM for players. I don't know.

Will you change some team instruction in the game ? What's your modifications to take the adventage to the opponent ?

I like to find your secret, can you help me on that ? :D 

Thanks

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12 hours ago, ElJefe4 said:

Pretty good with control mentality!

DolbergNice.gif

Can't beat a back to front team goal with every single player involved.


Wonderful :applause:thank you for sharing. That Ajax side really is ready made for the 3-4-3 diamond :cool:


 

1 hour ago, Giacch said:

Hi, it's long time i like to replicate your style of play and your youth vision but in a save in france.

English is not my first langage, i think i don't understand everything in the post.

 

I would like to play like your 4-3-3 strikerless like you but results are very poor for me. Did i miss some individuals instructions ? Or PPM for players. I don't know.

Will you change some team instruction in the game ? What's your modifications to take the adventage to the opponent ?

I like to find your secret, can you help me on that ? :D 

Thanks


Maybe try posting your team so I can see what you're trying to do?

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7 hours ago, Giacch said:

That's my team looks like

 

 

image_2021-06-13_141242.png

 

image_2021-06-13_141836.png


I don't see anything badly wrong with the system. My experience that setup was high possession numbers with fairly few goals but generally dominating enough to make it over the line.

What issues are you seeing?

Squad also looks good. A few areas could do with upgrades, but I guess you're aware of that.

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Yes i'know my players needs to progress a little but when i'm playing a game, the possession it's rarely over 50% and the most of my shoots are at 10 meter of the opponent cage.

 

Did you have any set pieces ? I've looked some goals comes from set piece offive and defensive. The most of time from a small player with his head

Edited by Giacch
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10 hours ago, Giacch said:

Yes i'know my players needs to progress a little but when i'm playing a game, the possession it's rarely over 50% and the most of my shoots are at 10 meter of the opponent cage.

 

Did you have any set pieces ? I've looked some goals comes from set piece offive and defensive. The most of time from a small player with his head


That's strange. It's always a fairly extremely possession oriented system so I would not suggest going any further down the possession route if it's not working.

You could try setting up a squad view and see if you can see any obvious weak-spots.


image.png.24ea2b278c2652f6365bd661ca9c5445.png

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Little feedback, i’ve changed instructions for some players my 2 fullback have short passing to increase her pourcentage of success passes and i add thé instruction to my wingers but in the match if her passes are under 80%. It’s everything and thats look good but i don’t have many shoots (i think it’s because my players aren’t to her Max potential) .

 

And what's the PPM of Xadas ? Plz

Edited by Giacch
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On 13/06/2021 at 13:00, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:


Wonderful :applause:thank you for sharing. That Ajax side really is ready made for the 3-4-3 diamond :cool:

Absolutely. Lots of very promising players and plenty of them are very versatile too. Should be an interesting save. Unfortunately the overall personality of the squad isn't the best to begin with. The senior players aren't the best tutors and lots of the B Team and U19's have less than desirable personalities.

One thing I have been contemplating a lot in the first few months of developing this squad is team shape, I'd be interested to get your thoughts on it. There's loads of good stuff in this thread about it, in particular page 9, if anyone wants to read it.

Do you select team shape purely based on the ability of your own players, or is it more to do with the ability of your own players in relation to your opponents? The reason I ask is that this Ajax side is, as always, very young on the whole. Vast majority of players are around 19-22. Whilst they're good in relation to our opponents, they're nowhere near the level of intelligence of your Very Fluid sides. With this in mind would you be more likely to go with A) a more structured shape whilst the intelligence develops or B) straight into a more fluid shape due to the weak opposition?

Edited by ElJefe4
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57 minutes ago, ElJefe4 said:

Absolutely. Lots of very promising players and plenty of them are very versatile too. Should be an interesting save. Unfortunately the overall personality of the squad isn't the best to begin with. The senior players aren't the best tutors and lots of the B Team and U19's have less than desirable personalities.

One thing I have been contemplating a lot in the first few months of developing this squad is team shape, I'd be interested to get your thoughts on it. There's loads of good stuff in this thread about it, in particular page 9, if anyone wants to read it.

Do you select team shape purely based on the ability of your own players, or is it more to do with the ability of your own players in relation to your opponents? The reason I ask is that this Ajax side is, as always, very young on the whole. Vast majority of players are around 19-22. Whilst they're good in relation to our opponents, they're nowhere near the level of intelligence of your Very Fluid sides. With this in mind would you be more likely to go with A) a more structured shape whilst the intelligence develops or B) straight into a more fluid shape due to the weak opposition?


Excellent question.

In most cases, my advice would be to think in absolute terms. In other words, mostly based on the absolute ability of your players, rather than their ability in relation to your opponent. Take Decisions as an example; say your guy has a decisions of 7 but your opponent has decisions of 4. Your player with will likely make better decisions than the opponent but their absolute decision making ability is still not at a level where they will consistently make good decisions.

These days I am actually using Structured styles of play a lot and getting excellent results. It's a little bit more work in the tactics creator to get compactness - mainly between midfield and defence and on the flanks - but it's far more applicable to a wider range of sides (than the 1% who can pull off Very Fluid Overload :lol:)

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@ElJefe4 I had a few saves with that Ajax side on FM18, and OP has been one of my main inspirations for FM from about the time of that game's release. Its certainly possible to play Very Fluid in the Eredivisie...but you'll get hammered in Europe as per @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! advice about "absolute" ability.

I had a lot of success using one of his Very Fluid tactics, but on Flexible team shape instead. I also think its just a great shape to start with when you're unsure. 

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 05/07/2021 at 15:43, axelmuller said:

What happened to George Mendieta? Would have been nice to see a certain G. Mendieta in a legendary Özil to the Arsenal Benfica side.


He's at Chelsea.


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He unfortunately fell victim to being another 'Number 10' type player amid a conveyor belt of world class 10s.

 

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On 23/12/2019 at 22:54, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

As this save approaches it's 10th season and with so much having been achieved, today I thought of an interesting question - what have a learned from the save, and what would I now do differently?

Firstly, this has easily been the most effort I have put into an academy save and the crux of the save has been simple.

  1. Get young players tutored, quickly and extensively.
  2. Develop until 18 in the excellent facilities at the Benfica academy.
  3. Structure the entire club to facilitate appropriate game time for players at 18.
  4. Use tactical team training and broad individual training to create well-rounded, intelligent technical players.

 

Doing my almost bi-weekly read through of this thread hoping to pick up a few more tips and I've got yet another question, this time on youth development. Hope you don't mind!

The above post caught my attention. Particularly point 3: "Structure the entire club to facilitate appropriate game time for players at 18".

This is something I've been pondering recently. I have a few players in my Jong Ajax squad who are decent but probably won't be moving any first teamers out of the way this season.

Case in point:

image.png.e22baa1d28fa0b0f76814c56737add85.png

Per Schuurs is a fairly promising player (albeit with clear limitations - poor in the air for a centre back and poor technique for a holding midfielder). 

My initial thought was to give him another season as a starter for Jong Ajax and maybe give him the odd cup game (probably wouldn't reach 10 first team apps), however...

image.png.f50ab22014576d20094b3a7557b41bda.png

My coaches think that he is already very well-suited to Eredivisie football. 

If you were in this situation, would you be more likely to:
a) give him a loan to an Eredivisie side so he is playing at the highest level possible, or
b) give him game time at a lower level for Jong Ajax, with the benefit of top class coaching, facilities etc.

I'm torn on which would better aid his development. At the moment I'm leaning towards the following policy:
- If a player has good personality and determination, as is the case with Schuurs, then push him to play at the highest possible level. In this case this would mean a loan to an Eredivise side, assuming I can find a side to guarantee first team minutes.
- If a player (of similar current ability) has less than desirable personality and determination, then keep him with Jong Ajax and look to tutor him for another year.

Would love to get a few thoughts on this from you and anyone else who might be reading!

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On 14/07/2021 at 23:32, ElJefe4 said:

Doing my almost bi-weekly read through of this thread hoping to pick up a few more tips and I've got yet another question, this time on youth development. Hope you don't mind!

The above post caught my attention. Particularly point 3: "Structure the entire club to facilitate appropriate game time for players at 18".

This is something I've been pondering recently. I have a few players in my Jong Ajax squad who are decent but probably won't be moving any first teamers out of the way this season.

Case in point:

image.png.e22baa1d28fa0b0f76814c56737add85.png

Per Schuurs is a fairly promising player (albeit with clear limitations - poor in the air for a centre back and poor technique for a holding midfielder). 

My initial thought was to give him another season as a starter for Jong Ajax and maybe give him the odd cup game (probably wouldn't reach 10 first team apps), however...

image.png.f50ab22014576d20094b3a7557b41bda.png

My coaches think that he is already very well-suited to Eredivisie football. 

If you were in this situation, would you be more likely to:
a) give him a loan to an Eredivisie side so he is playing at the highest level possible, or
b) give him game time at a lower level for Jong Ajax, with the benefit of top class coaching, facilities etc.

I'm torn on which would better aid his development. At the moment I'm leaning towards the following policy:
- If a player has good personality and determination, as is the case with Schuurs, then push him to play at the highest possible level. In this case this would mean a loan to an Eredivise side, assuming I can find a side to guarantee first team minutes.
- If a player (of similar current ability) has less than desirable personality and determination, then keep him with Jong Ajax and look to tutor him for another year.

Would love to get a few thoughts on this from you and anyone else who might be reading!

I'd go for option A and send him on loan to the Eredivisie. Make sure any loan has him play as a regular starter, he's at an age where his development will proceed faster with regular gametime at an appropriate level. If that level is the Eredivisie, it makes sense for him to spend time getting regular games at that level.

After the age of 18, regular game time has more benefit to development than training. It makes sense to give him this season on loan, then assess his performance and development and see how he fits into your squad at the start of next season.

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I would go with option A. However, I also think he is far more of a midfielder than a centre back. His jumping ability and all around physical game, lack of anticipation and agression would mean he could easily be bullied as a CB - as a reasonable squad midfielder he could be ok. Or get him developed and sold for a decent chunk of change, I doubt he is going to displace any of the first teamers at Ajax in the next 2 to 3 seasons.

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@ElJefe4 just to be completely ornery, I'm going to say he's a centre-back :lol:

In fairness, I have recently become quite a fan of centre-backs with low Aggression but not Bravery. He's 6'3" so the 11 Jumping Reach is still good, I'm on FM19 and most newgen centre-backs such at heading so I wouldn't be too put off by 11 for that either. Or the 10 Technique given he's great at Passing and has good First Touch too. You do definitely need that Anticipation up though. Low Aggression + high Anticipation makes for a defender who gets a lot of interceptions, but if he has low Anticipation too he'll just be left behind and not willing to assert himself to get involved again.

r.e. the game time - I'd look at who in Eredivisie is going to take him. You want him to be a first team regular at an established top-half side, as players need high ratings to develop so it would do him no good to be a Key Player at someone like FC Emmen, whereas First Team at Alkmaar would be great. 

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On 15/07/2021 at 00:32, ElJefe4 said:

Doing my almost bi-weekly read through of this thread hoping to pick up a few more tips and I've got yet another question, this time on youth development. Hope you don't mind!

The above post caught my attention. Particularly point 3: "Structure the entire club to facilitate appropriate game time for players at 18".

This is something I've been pondering recently. I have a few players in my Jong Ajax squad who are decent but probably won't be moving any first teamers out of the way this season.

Case in point:

image.png.e22baa1d28fa0b0f76814c56737add85.png

Per Schuurs is a fairly promising player (albeit with clear limitations - poor in the air for a centre back and poor technique for a holding midfielder). 

My initial thought was to give him another season as a starter for Jong Ajax and maybe give him the odd cup game (probably wouldn't reach 10 first team apps), however...

image.png.f50ab22014576d20094b3a7557b41bda.png

My coaches think that he is already very well-suited to Eredivisie football. 

If you were in this situation, would you be more likely to:
a) give him a loan to an Eredivisie side so he is playing at the highest level possible, or
b) give him game time at a lower level for Jong Ajax, with the benefit of top class coaching, facilities etc.

I'm torn on which would better aid his development. At the moment I'm leaning towards the following policy:
- If a player has good personality and determination, as is the case with Schuurs, then push him to play at the highest possible level. In this case this would mean a loan to an Eredivise side, assuming I can find a side to guarantee first team minutes.
- If a player (of similar current ability) has less than desirable personality and determination, then keep him with Jong Ajax and look to tutor him for another year.

Would love to get a few thoughts on this from you and anyone else who might be reading!


Personally, I would be keeping him at the club and tutoring him. After that I would be thinking about a loan or finding space for him in the first team squad.

I love players like this. Positioning 14, vision 14, decisions 15 (you need to work on his technique a bit). He looks like an ideal Half Back.

With 2.5-3.5 star potential it looks like he's never going to set the world alight but he could play a squad role, something similar to the way I used Pedro Rodrigues earlier in this save. Well rounded, reliable, great tutor and likely to be easier to keep hold of than some of the other superstars.

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Hi @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!,

I can't believe I've only just got round to reading this whole thread, having been on these forums for many years. I've only ever flicked through and read glimpses here and there, but to actually go through from front to back has been brilliant. I'd actually now go as far as saying this is essential reading for everyone on these forums.

Anyway, I wanted to ask specifically regarding about the below system, in particular the outside CMs. Despite the below appearing a very generic system, it has always been something I've struggled with.

On 21/07/2021 at 12:10, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

image.png.f2140745ecb0701e052f52b51daeefeb.pngv 

 

I think you mentioned that when you use this system, you need more well-rounded players for the outside CMs. This is because they aren't so much 'free 8s' with a license to burst forward with regularity, but rather they need provide balance for the aggressive IFs and WBs.

The reason I ask is that in recent years, I've always played as Barcelona and their squad on FM21 has three fantastic ball-playing midfielders in Buquets, De Jong and Pjanic. Neither of these three are particularly strong at driving forward and scoring goals, but they do excel with keeping the ball (great first touch, composure, passing, technique and decisions). So in theory the above system would suit them perfectly, especially with a Messi dropping deeper from a ST position.

So what is your general logic about these two wider CMs in this system? - as I've seen you use CM (S), Mez (S) and DLP (S) in similar systems when you commit Wingbacks high and wide, with Inside Forwards drifting inside.

I assume they need to link the play from the back to the front, without being too aggressive and getting in the way of the IFs in the central areas of the final third.

Edited by Luizinho
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@bibird. @Garrlor @zlatanera @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! Appreciate all the advice guys! As it happened just after my post, AS Monaco came in with a big bid for Wober which I accepted, meaning I had no choice but to keep Schuurs around the first team. His game time has been split between Centre Back and Right Back (Inverted Wing Back) and in fairness he's yet to let me down. He'll be tutored by Vincent Kompany (model citizen) in the 2nd half of the season. Might be able to make a proper player of him yet.

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On 22/07/2021 at 17:41, Luizinho said:

Hi @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!,

I can't believe I've only just got round to reading this whole thread, having been on these forums for many years. I've only ever flicked through and read glimpses here and there, but to actually go through from front to back has been brilliant. I'd actually now go as far as saying this is essential reading for everyone on these forums.

Anyway, I wanted to ask specifically regarding about the below system, in particular the outside CMs. Despite the below appearing a very generic system, it has always been something I've struggled with.

 

I think you mentioned that when you use this system, you need more well-rounded players for the outside CMs. This is because they aren't so much 'free 8s' with a license to burst forward with regularity, but rather they need provide balance for the aggressive IFs and WBs.

The reason I ask is that in recent years, I've always played as Barcelona and their squad on FM21 has three fantastic ball-playing midfielders in Buquets, De Jong and Pjanic. Neither of these three are particularly strong at driving forward and scoring goals, but they do excel with keeping the ball (great first touch, composure, passing, technique and decisions). So in theory the above system would suit them perfectly, especially with a Messi dropping deeper from a ST position.

So what is your general logic about these two wider CMs in this system? - as I've seen you use CM (S), Mez (S) and DLP (S) in similar systems when you commit Wingbacks high and wide, with Inside Forwards drifting inside.

I assume they need to link the play from the back to the front, without being too aggressive and getting in the way of the IFs in the central areas of the final third.


Thank you for your kind words 

The flat midfield 3 - in a 1-2 or S-D-S setup - used to be an absolute favourite of mine, however I must admit having moved away from it lately.

In particular, the versatility of the Central Midfielder (Support) was something I built a lot of earlier success on. In the screenshot you reference, Joao Felix and Florentino Luis are two completely different players playing the same role in a completely different way.

The advantage of the flat 3 midfield is the wider midfielders naturally sitting in the half-spaces and you'll notice they flank a 2-man opposition midfield beautifully. The disadvantage is that the DLP(D) is more effective in the earlier build up play from the DM strata so it's a trade off.

The main reason I moved away from it was actually finding the right player for the DLP(D) position.

The DLP(D) plays two essential roles. He is both your playmaker and holding midfielder. Tiago Dantas is fairly unique in that he does both roles at an elite level. But elsewhere, just try searching for players with great playmaking attributes like vision, technique, first touch, passing and also able to hold a midfield with anticipation, decisions, positioning, concentration etc.

One option is to find a high-potential young playmaker early and train him to hold the midfield, particularly in those formative years however this is a long term solution. Beyond that, you're most likely to want to split the roles down, for example in other saves I'll regularly use a Half-Back with either a DLP(S) or even RPM(S) and then a more attacking player with them.

If you do go with that system, you'll want the wide midfielders to be hard working, creative players. Kevin de Bruyne and Bernardo Silva are great examples. Or you could go one more attacking and one more defensive, like Paul Pogba and N'golo Kante. 


 

On 22/07/2021 at 20:57, ElJefe4 said:

@bibird. @Garrlor @zlatanera @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! Appreciate all the advice guys! As it happened just after my post, AS Monaco came in with a big bid for Wober which I accepted, meaning I had no choice but to keep Schuurs around the first team. His game time has been split between Centre Back and Right Back (Inverted Wing Back) and in fairness he's yet to let me down. He'll be tutored by Vincent Kompany (model citizen) in the 2nd half of the season. Might be able to make a proper player of him yet.


Excellent. Yea, I can imagine he's going to be an extremely valuable player if Kompany manages to tutor him into a Model Citizen.

In other news *spoiler alert*..
 

Spoiler

image.png.5e7f2fa48bee0b0a929b783cde63e606.png


Update to follow next time I get a reliable internet connection :applause:

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On 11/06/2021 at 14:47, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:


Possibly. Playing an English club and a lower league side are probably the most common request.

I actually made the decision to re-run the save. Firstly, I am not particularly experienced at motoring through the football league system so I learnt a lot during my first run through which I would now like to apply. Secondly, I was using an unofficial update which unbalanced the game. Ole Gunnar Solksjaer got Manchester United relegated playing an obscure 3-1-5-1 and retrained Aaron Wan Bassaka as a striker :lol:

I've become a lot more pragmatic tactically and had to be a lot more resourceful in attracting the right players. Essentially it's almost a pre-cursor to this thread; building the foundations of a football club which took Benfica to the level they are in this save.

If I do go ahead with a thread, I would want to make it as replicable as possible; not relying on getting lucky with newgens or lucrative cup runs.
 


Good guess! :lol:


053a6dfa533e358ab7474e4d21acf2ca.gif


2d1d106b893eea50c725f990fd24d42b.gif


Not bad for a semi-professional, non-league side :D

Which unofficial update were you using? I hope I’m not using the same one! Perhaps you could PM me if you’d rather not list it here? Unless it was one not hosted n this site? Thanks

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On 21/07/2021 at 00:52, zlatanera said:

@ElJefe4 just to be completely ornery, I'm going to say he's a centre-back :lol:

In fairness, I have recently become quite a fan of centre-backs with low Aggression but not Bravery. He's 6'3" so the 11 Jumping Reach is still good, I'm on FM19 and most newgen centre-backs such at heading so I wouldn't be too put off by 11 for that either. Or the 10 Technique given he's great at Passing and has good First Touch too. You do definitely need that Anticipation up though. Low Aggression + high Anticipation makes for a defender who gets a lot of interceptions, but if he has low Anticipation too he'll just be left behind and not willing to assert himself to get involved again.

r.e. the game time - I'd look at who in Eredivisie is going to take him. You want him to be a first team regular at an established top-half side, as players need high ratings to develop so it would do him no good to be a Key Player at someone like FC Emmen, whereas First Team at Alkmaar would be great. 

I thought that the jumping reach already takes into account a players height? If so, his height doesn’t matter, it’s just window dressing for immersion purposes. I believe I’ve read that a player who is 5’7” with a jumping reach of 11 will reach the exact same height as a 6’3” player who also has a jumping reach of 11. This players lack of aggression would also hold him back in being the first to get his head to the ball (if all else is equal between him & a more aggressive player).

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3 hours ago, smeagoltonez said:

I thought that the jumping reach already takes into account a players height? If so, his height doesn’t matter, it’s just window dressing for immersion purposes. I believe I’ve read that a player who is 5’7” with a jumping reach of 11 will reach the exact same height as a 6’3” player who also has a jumping reach of 11. This players lack of aggression would also hold him back in being the first to get his head to the ball (if all else is equal between him & a more aggressive player).

The in-game hint states it quite clearly I think. But if I were to explain it in my own terms, I'd say if your hypothetical two guys face off from a standing start, they're both going to get their feet the same distance off the ground, only the tall one's head will naturally be 10 inches higher up!

Of course when you put it into a game situation everything's a factor - a whole host of mental and physical attributes to put them in the right place, at the right time, to even make the jump. 

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2 hours ago, zlatanera said:

The in-game hint states it quite clearly I think. But if I were to explain it in my own terms, I'd say if your hypothetical two guys face off from a standing start, they're both going to get their feet the same distance off the ground, only the tall one's head will naturally be 10 inches higher up!

Of course when you put it into a game situation everything's a factor - a whole host of mental and physical attributes to put them in the right place, at the right time, to even make the jump. 

 

I'm not sure you're right about this, the description of the attribute is "reflects the highest point that a player can reach with his head", so this should be an absolute term - regardless of height (i.e. 11 jumping reach gets you to the same point off the ground, no matter how tall or short you are).

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10 minutes ago, Chris2509 said:

 

I'm not sure you're right about this, the description of the attribute is "reflects the highest point that a player can reach with his head", so this should be an absolute term - regardless of height (i.e. 11 jumping reach gets you to the same point off the ground, no matter how tall or short you are).

Yes, that's correct, the height is purely cosmetic & only the jumping reach counts for how high a player can reach to head the ball.

Edited by smeagoltonez
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1 hour ago, Chris2509 said:

 

I'm not sure you're right about this, the description of the attribute is "reflects the highest point that a player can reach with his head", so this should be an absolute term - regardless of height (i.e. 11 jumping reach gets you to the same point off the ground, no matter how tall or short you are).

 

1 hour ago, smeagoltonez said:

Yes, that's correct, the height is purely cosmetic & only the jumping reach counts for how high a player can reach to head the ball.

I'm still a bit in the past on FM19 - although given this is an FM18 thread technically I'm in the future :lol:

Anyway, this is copy-pasted from the Online Manual

Quote

Jumping Reach reflects how good a player is at reaching the ball in the air. It indicates the highest point an outfield player can reach with his head. It is not necessarily reflective of how tall a player is, but when considering his jumping ability, it makes sense to consider the player’s height. For example, a player of 200+cm will still possess a high reach even if he is a poor jumper, and a player who measures in at 170cm will struggle to compete at the same height due to the 30cm difference in height between the two.

If you guys have something more recent that supersedes it, by all means please share I'm not out to win an argument.

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9 minutes ago, zlatanera said:

 

I'm still a bit in the past on FM19 - although given this is an FM18 thread technically I'm in the future :lol:

Anyway, this is copy-pasted from the Online Manual

If you guys have something more recent that supersedes it, by all means please share I'm not out to win an argument.

 

Honestly I think your quote actually supports what has been said by others and myself - the jumping reach attribute already factors in the height. But I can see why it might be confusing, they worded it rather poorly.

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8 hours ago, zlatanera said:

 

I'm still a bit in the past on FM19 - although given this is an FM18 thread technically I'm in the future :lol:

Anyway, this is copy-pasted from the Online Manual

If you guys have something more recent that supersedes it, by all means please share I'm not out to win an argument.

 

8 hours ago, Chris2509 said:

 

Honestly I think your quote actually supports what has been said by others and myself - the jumping reach attribute already factors in the height. But I can see why it might be confusing, they worded it rather poorly.


Sorry if I’m coming across as argumentative, I’m just trying to help people avoid a common misconception that previously caught me out. ✌️

Yes I agree, the online manual confirms that ‘height’ doesn’t matter, only the jumping reach counts. You can see it being discussed here:

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, smeagoltonez said:

 


Sorry if I’m coming across as argumentative, I’m just trying to help people avoid a common misconception that previously caught me out. ✌️

Yes I agree, the online manual confirms that ‘height’ doesn’t matter, only the jumping reach counts. You can see it being discussed here:

 

 

 

I think I’m even more confused after reading that haha

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35 minutes ago, zlatanera said:

I think I’m even more confused after reading that haha

:lol::lol:

To summarise the discussion I linked, height doesn't matter at all. It's purely cosmetic. The attribute 'jumping reach' has already taken height into consideration therefore, a 5 player who is 5’7” with a jumping reach of 11 will reach the exact same height as a 6’3” player with a jumping reach of 11. 

I think that it may have been different in earlier installments of FM when the attribute was called 'jumping' & not 'jumping reach' but I'm not certain about that.

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On 25/07/2021 at 14:40, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Thank you for your kind words 

The flat midfield 3 - in a 1-2 or S-D-S setup - used to be an absolute favourite of mine, however I must admit having moved away from it lately.

In particular, the versatility of the Central Midfielder (Support) was something I built a lot of earlier success on. In the screenshot you reference, Joao Felix and Florentino Luis are two completely different players playing the same role in a completely different way.

The advantage of the flat 3 midfield is the wider midfielders naturally sitting in the half-spaces and you'll notice they flank a 2-man opposition midfield beautifully. The disadvantage is that the DLP(D) is more effective in the earlier build up play from the DM strata so it's a trade off.

The main reason I moved away from it was actually finding the right player for the DLP(D) position.

The DLP(D) plays two essential roles. He is both your playmaker and holding midfielder. Tiago Dantas is fairly unique in that he does both roles at an elite level. But elsewhere, just try searching for players with great playmaking attributes like vision, technique, first touch, passing and also able to hold a midfield with anticipation, decisions, positioning, concentration etc.

One option is to find a high-potential young playmaker early and train him to hold the midfield, particularly in those formative years however this is a long term solution. Beyond that, you're most likely to want to split the roles down, for example in other saves I'll regularly use a Half-Back with either a DLP(S) or even RPM(S) and then a more attacking player with them.

If you do go with that system, you'll want the wide midfielders to be hard working, creative players. Kevin de Bruyne and Bernardo Silva are great examples. Or you could go one more attacking and one more defensive, like Paul Pogba and N'golo Kante. 

Thanks for the info :thup:

So are both of those wider central roles just vanilla CM -Support roles (no PIs)?

I believe I have an understanding of how the system should work, but struggle on how best to utilise the LCM and RCM. I see any forward runs as a big issue from the MCs, whether it be via PIs or PPMs; as they get in the way of the space you want your IFs.

 

I've tried to detail below the issue as I see it in my head: 

1455696111_Screenshot2021-07-28at14_27_04.png.711f834b21511f5fd73613b10f79b675.png

 

The above is the attacking shape (or how I see/want it).

  • Have a 5x5 shape (yellow and green boxes) or a 2-3-5 shape. 
  • Having 5 players behind the ball provides plenty of protection against counter attacks and also has ball recycling options to help with possession.
  • Front 5 provide penetrative movement towards the goal (in their won unique ways).

 

The issue I have is in the two half spaces (pink) and how the CMs and the IFs interact. How are you looking for them to interact (whats the theory in your head)?

Do you not find these two players getting in the way of each other? Or do you see the IFs more as attackers, who attack the box frequently and the MCs purely as supportive midfielders, who will rarely go beyond the edge of the box?

Edited by Luizinho
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9 hours ago, Luizinho said:

Thanks for the info :thup:

So are both of those wider central roles just vanilla CM -Support roles (no PIs)?

I believe I have an understanding of how the system should work, but struggle on how best to utilise the LCM and RCM. I see any forward runs as a big issue from the MCs, whether it be via PIs or PPMs; as they get in the way of the space you want your IFs.

 

I've tried to detail below the issue as I see it in my head: 

1455696111_Screenshot2021-07-28at14_27_04.png.711f834b21511f5fd73613b10f79b675.png

 

The above is the attacking shape (or how I see/want it).

  • Have a 5x5 shape (yellow and green boxes) or a 2-3-5 shape. 
  • Having 5 players behind the ball provides plenty of protection against counter attacks and also has ball recycling options to help with possession.
  • Front 5 provide penetrative movement towards the goal (in their won unique ways).

 

The issue I have is in the two half spaces (pink) and how the CMs and the IFs interact. How are you looking for them to interact (whats the theory in your head)?

Do you not find these two players getting in the way of each other? Or do you see the IFs more as attackers, who attack the box frequently and the MCs purely as supportive midfielders, who will rarely go beyond the edge of the box?

I believe when using a 2-3-5 shape in attack, O-Zil used PIs such as 'Get Further Forward', 'Roam From Position' and 'Move Into Channels' on those CMs. 

You'd have to go back through the thread to check but I think I'm right in saying these were coupled with traditional wingers in the wide roles, not inside forwards. I suppose there would have to be sufficient space in those half spaces for the central midfielders to see it fit to advance. An inside forward may occupy this space, whereas a winger would leave it free for the central midfielder to advance into.

I'm currently having success with a 2-3-5 attacking shape using my central midfield players as Mezzalas (no PIs), coupled with inside forwards (PIs - 'Get Further Forward' and 'Stay Wider'). This way, the inside forwards stay wide in my build up play (similar to how a traditional winger would) and leave room for an advancing midfield player in the half space, however they also provide some threat in behind which I find is lost when using the winger role. 

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12 hours ago, ElJefe4 said:

I believe when using a 2-3-5 shape in attack, O-Zil used PIs such as 'Get Further Forward', 'Roam From Position' and 'Move Into Channels' on those CMs. 

You'd have to go back through the thread to check but I think I'm right in saying these were coupled with traditional wingers in the wide roles, not inside forwards. I suppose there would have to be sufficient space in those half spaces for the central midfielders to see it fit to advance. An inside forward may occupy this space, whereas a winger would leave it free for the central midfielder to advance into.

I'm currently having success with a 2-3-5 attacking shape using my central midfield players as Mezzalas (no PIs), coupled with inside forwards (PIs - 'Get Further Forward' and 'Stay Wider'). This way, the inside forwards stay wide in my build up play (similar to how a traditional winger would) and leave room for an advancing midfield player in the half space, however they also provide some threat in behind which I find is lost when using the winger role. 

Yeah I'm very familiar with the 'Pep' system and it's actually my go to system. Lots of really good content on it across this forum, especially from @Columnarius

The system I'm speaking about is this one:

image.png.d29ebe0c45832e407c71542787672737.png

 

Its a different system, but functions very similar with the same attacking shape. In my view, it just requires different attributes for specific positions and is useful to use if you lack goalscoring MCs with poor movement for example. Infact if you read my initial post, I mentioned that  Barcelona's three MCs generally have poor movement and attacking (goalscoring) attributes, so the Pep system wouldn't necessarily get the best out of them. 

The 'Pep' system would work great if you played Coutinho and Messi as the false 8s. However I'm keen to have a second system that I can use, when I want to play a midfield three of De Jong, Busquets and Pjanic along with Griezmann and Messi playing as half space attackers in the IF roles.

Edited by Luizinho
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2 hours ago, Luizinho said:

Yeah I'm very familiar with the 'Pep' system and it's actually my go to system. Lots of really good content on it across this forum, especially from @Columnarius

The system I'm speaking about is this one:

image.png.d29ebe0c45832e407c71542787672737.png

 

Its a different system, but functions very similar with the same attacking shape. In my view, it just requires different attributes for specific positions and is useful to use if you lack goalscoring MCs with poor movement for example. Infact if you read my initial post, I mentioned that  Barcelona's three MCs generally have poor movement and attacking (goalscoring) attributes, so the Pep system wouldn't necessarily get the best out of them. 

The 'Pep' system would work great if you played Coutinho and Messi as the false 8s. However I'm keen to have a second system that I can use, when I want to play a midfield three of De Jong, Busquets and Pjanic along with Griezmann and Messi playing as half space attackers in the IF roles.

Ah I misinterpreted your last post, should have read your initial post as well, my bad!

Might be able to provide a bit more info anyway though, here is the PIs used in the system you have shown (found on page 6, about half way down).

image.png.5c9addc5c18430e1bf32fb8de4960adb.png

So in the above system, the central midfielders were only told to move into channels. :thup:

If you were to watch a few games and saw them advancing more than you'd like, hold position would prevent this. Not sure if it can be used in conjunction with move into channels though?

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4 hours ago, ElJefe4 said:

Ah I misinterpreted your last post, should have read your initial post as well, my bad!

Might be able to provide a bit more info anyway though, here is the PIs used in the system you have shown (found on page 6, about half way down).

image.png.5c9addc5c18430e1bf32fb8de4960adb.png

So in the above system, the central midfielders were only told to move into channels. :thup:

If you were to watch a few games and saw them advancing more than you'd like, hold position would prevent this. Not sure if it can be used in conjunction with move into channels though?

I'd been trying to find that screenshot for ages! Thanks for re-sharing it.

I think the key for me is no 'get further forward' PI.

It's interesting as the system is pretty much exactly the same as the 'Pep' system, but just positions swapping attacking responsibilities.

  • The midfield support is now given by the LCM and RCM, instead of the IWBs
  • The fullbacks instead now create the width in attack, instead of the wingers
  • The IFs now occupy the half spaces, albeit in a slightly different way to the 'free 8s'

Same attacking shape, but created in a different way. It's a useful system to have if you have more aggressive wingbacks and/or more goalscoring wide players.

Also it's a useful plan B if you're not having much luck in a match with the 'traditional' Pep system. I guess it focuses attacks slightly more down the flanks?

Edited by Luizinho
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  • 2 months later...

Hey, good morning everybody. Hello from the beach of Kenya :)

Apologies for the radio silence. Work and life have been well and truely in the way of finding time to complete the twilight years of this save. Am hoping to find some time this week, and maybe provide something new (time permitting, of course). Thanks for your patience and continued support :applause:

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On 03/10/2021 at 08:47, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Hey, good morning everybody. Hello from the beach of Kenya :)

Apologies for the radio silence. Work and life have been well and truely in the way of finding time to complete the twilight years of this save. Am hoping to find some time this week, and maybe provide something new (time permitting, of course). Thanks for your patience and continued support :applause:

This thread has been amazing for YEARS now, thank you! The high-intensity 3-4-3 and 4-2-4 are still my main source of inspirarion! Honestly the best part of the new Wide Centre-Back role for FM22 is a potential new thread of yours of the 3-4-3 diamond :D

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  • 2 weeks later...

Got to drop in and say a big thank you to the main man @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! for the inspiration this thread has provided. Using many of the principles of this thread we've managed an unbeaten league season and our first Champions League win. Came very close to both of these achievements before, with just a single league defeat in each of the 2 previous seasons and an agonizing 120th minute winning goal conceded to Man United in last year's final - finally this year we got over the line to reach both targets!

This has been done with largely the squad I started with and a handful of additions. I came into a very talented young squad, unfortunately most of them were already established first teamers so couldn't be tutored (hence lots of balanced personalities). The success definitely wouldn't have happened without the knowledge I've picked up through multiple read throughs of this thread! The next step is the introduction of some more youth team players that have been developing nicely in the B Team and U19's over the past couple of years.

Table.PNG

DNA.PNG

Champions League Win.PNG

Edited by ElJefe4
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