Help needed with my 3-5-2 and its many crossings

[marcorigobelli]

Hello, people!

I have posted before asking for advices on how to replicate 17/18 Hoffenheim in FM 18. You guys helped me A LOT and, after testing and tweaks, I created this:

 

I've tried to not only recreate Nagelsmann's playing style, but also to adapt it to the italian way because, well... I am managing in Italy, so I focused in some main characteristics:

- A pacient building focused in my DC and my DM, these two then choose if we remain pacient or if we try to be more direct;

- Something similar to Hoffenheim's vertical positional play: when attacking, my WBs turn in attackers, acting almost in the same line as my Strikers, stretching the field, but still forming a back 5 when defending. Against weaker or bus parked sides, I use another tactic with my CMs as AMs and make six near the box;

I am almost where I wanted to be with this tactic, but still feel we have too many crosses with too little effectiveness. Look at these examples:

I think we are creating chances, making overloads and changing side quickly, shooting well, behaving very good defensively (althoug some times my WBs run like crazy to the middle of the pitch chasing a player, and I don't know why because I'm not telling my players to man mark), but we are crossing A LOT! And only having a tiny % of headers from them (even with Dzeko and very good crossers!).

Contextualizing: I've started with CWBs support to have the effect of attacking with four players, but identfied two problems: we was crossing too much and when one CWB was getting to the byline, the other was not touching the box as much as I needed to also receive crossings or getting rebounds, and this way we have less people there than we should. So I changed to WB support with the "sit narrower" PI and got what I needed without loosing width. But in the support role they aren't as aggressive as I needed and not formed the front 4 line that I wanted. So I tweaked my WBs to attack and it finnaly worked as I wanted! I knew we would ending up having much more crosses with this configuration and was ok with that, because Dzeko (and Schick as backup). But I think 45, 61 is TOO MUCH! I'm also not happy with 35, yet could live with, but the other stats are frustrating me! And I didn't was capable of lowering these numbers. Tried to lower mentality and not saw any changes in crossing, so I'm starting to talk that this is a problem with the roles of my CMs and STs.

Am I in the right way? What can I do in my case? (Sorry for my english)

[noikeee]

Unfortunately we can't give the "cross less" instruction to WB/As, that would've been the obvious start.

So I would maybe recommend ticking "work ball into box" for the team, this reduces crosses I think (and long shots). I have that in my tactics (though they're completely different from 3-5-2s) and they still cross a bit, it's not like it stops crossing at all, so I think it makes for a nice balance.

[marcorigobelli]

15 minutes ago, noikeee said:

Unfortunately we can't give the "cross less" instruction to WB/As, that would've been the obvious start.

So I would maybe recommend ticking "work ball into box" for the team, this reduces crosses I think (and long shots). I have that in my tactics (though they're completely different from 3-5-2s) and they still cross a bit, it's not like it stops crossing at all, so I think it makes for a nice balance.

I ticked work ball into box, but didn't noticed much difference. In the game with 45 crosses I've played with this instruction selected during the entire game.

[summatsupeer]

I'd just step back and look at the full setup for a second.  You have two attack duties in the team, the wingbacks.  All other players are supporting.  On a high team mentality you've told the team to Pass Into Space.  If lots of players are looking to play risk passes often, who are making the most forward runs so likely to be the target? Yup the wingbacks.  Once they get it what are they told to do? Dribble and cross.

The MEZ makes forward runs often as well but his mentality will be lower so won't take as many risks. BBM, CF-S and F9 all still make runs but they won't do them as often but won't hold position either.

If you want players to use them less I'd drop the pass into space so they can play it to one of your many support players feet. Maybe even going fully to retain possession.

Reading your replies you seem to want aggressive wide players but don't want the crossing?  Could try inverted wingbacks... they should stay wide with no other player wide but should do other things than cross, not sure what though.  If its still an issue i'd maybe push them to MR+ML to get other roles that don't cross as often and can be customized more.

[marcorigobelli]

12 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

I'd just step back and look at the full setup for a second.  You have two attack duties in the team, the wingbacks.  All other players are supporting.  On a high team mentality you've told the team to Pass Into Space.  If lots of players are looking to play risk passes often, who are making the most forward runs so likely to be the target? Yup the wingbacks.  Once they get it what are they told to do? Dribble and cross.

The MEZ makes forward runs often as well but his mentality will be lower so won't take as many risks. BBM, CF-S and F9 all still make runs but they won't do them as often but won't hold position either.

If you want players to use them less I'd drop the pass into space so they can play it to one of your many support players feet. Maybe even going fully to retain possession.

Reading your replies you seem to want aggressive wide players but don't want the crossing?  Could try inverted wingbacks... they should stay wide with no other player wide but should do other things than cross, not sure what though.  If its still an issue i'd maybe push them to MR+ML to get other roles that don't cross as often and can be customized more.

I'm totally open to sugestions! I tried change my WBs to support and it's working, but I feel there is a gap between my CMs and STs. Thinking about changing the CMS mentalities to attack. Or drop team mentality to Standard or even Counter. Maybe both.

I want the crossings, but I want then to be more efficient. Because, at least for me, 10/61 is a waste and I can't identify what is causing this.

[herne79]

The in-game description of a False 9:

"...in some ways similar to a more advanced attacking midfielder/playmaker role, is an unconventional lone striker or centre forward who drops deep into midfield.  The purpose of this is that it creates a problem for opposing central defenders who can either follow him - leaving space behind them for onrushing midfielders, forwards or wingers to exploit - or leave him time and space to dribble or pick out a pass".

But you're not using him as a "lone striker".  You have him partnered upfront.  Not to mention you don't have any onrushing midfielders or wingers.  And your CF(s) may also look to come deep.

Why are you using a False 9?

[marcorigobelli]

Because I felt the Strikers was too far apart from the rest of my team, and this was the only configuration where they seemed close enough. But I honestly didn't tought about the rushing midfilders. Maybe tweaking the Mezzala to attack instead of support? Or changing the mezzala to a roaming playmake and the BBM to CM in attack?

[summatsupeer]

2 hours ago, marcorigobelli said:

I'm totally open to sugestions! I tried change my WBs to support and it's working, but I feel there is a gap between my CMs and STs. Thinking about changing the CMS mentalities to attack. Or drop team mentality to Standard or even Counter. Maybe both.

52 minutes ago, marcorigobelli said:

Because I felt the Strikers was too far apart from the rest of my team, and this was the only configuration where they seemed close enough. But I honestly didn't tought about the rushing midfilders. Maybe tweaking the Mezzala to attack instead of support? Or changing the mezzala to a roaming playmake and the BBM to CM in attack?

I'm wondering why you still have Pass Into Space selected.  You have no attack duties, no early runners, everyone is mixing up there play to offer a simple pass to there feet and sometimes making a run.  But then the player with the ball isn't very selective about who's run they try to play through as they're told to try them often, they probably won't have many choices so try the first one they see.

It's like your trying to play a possession style, but then telling them to pass like an attacking style thats trying to run into space quickly.  I don't think team mentality has anything to do with your issues.  

Maybe you don't want two strikers but rather a AMCL + STCR or AMCR + STCL so that front 2 shape but one starting deeper to link play rather than both dropping?  People see BBM-S as a runner but really he arrives late as per his description as he can be quite deep at times hence "box to box".  Yes increasing the CM pairs duty should push them forward but consider the roles and what they're doing and not just "get forward more".  Roaming Playmaker isn't a more advanced role, he will move to collect the ball just like the Regista will, so when transitioning could be another deep player especially when transitioning which is likely when you think there's a gap.

What should you change? Well I think it depends on if you think its the passing preferences causing the issue or the roles and/or duties being too deep and a lack of runners to give options for the passer?  Is it a possession style?  Is it an attacking style?  Is it a balanced style without a specific focus with players doing a specific job?

2 hours ago, marcorigobelli said:

I want the crossings, but I want then to be more efficient. Because, at least for me, 10/61 is a waste and I can't identify what is causing this.

Efficiency will come down to quality of the player crossing it and the ability of the players in the box to get on the end of it.  Obviously the numbers and organization of the defence will play a part, crossing into a packed box with defenders organized will be less effective than when they're running back at there own net and not organized.

 

[herne79]

1 hour ago, marcorigobelli said:

Because I felt the Strikers was too far apart from the rest of my team, and this was the only configuration where they seemed close enough. But I honestly didn't tought about the rushing midfilders. Maybe tweaking the Mezzala to attack instead of support? Or changing the mezzala to a roaming playmake and the BBM to CM in attack?

All possible options.  Or move the F9 down to the AM strata if you're really having problems with your strikers being too far away from midfield.

Lots to try out and experiment with, but start by reading the role descriptions - they'll give you a rough idea of how they play and how they combine with other players .

[enigmatic]

Your wingbacks are encouraged to play wide and get as far forward as possible. What do you expect them to do other than cross a lot?

Especially when the rest of the team is all centrally positioned and encouraged to build up slowly and spread the ball wider.

[marcorigobelli]

12 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

I'm wondering why you still have Pass Into Space selected.  You have no attack duties, no early runners, everyone is mixing up there play to offer a simple pass to there feet and sometimes making a run.  But then the player with the ball isn't very selective about who's run they try to play through as they're told to try them often, they probably won't have many choices so try the first one they see.

It's like your trying to play a possession style, but then telling them to pass like an attacking style thats trying to run into space quickly.  I don't think team mentality has anything to do with your issues.  

33 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

What should you change? Well I think it depends on if you think its the passing preferences causing the issue or the roles and/or duties being too deep and a lack of runners to give options for the passer?  Is it a possession style?  Is it an attacking style?  Is it a balanced style without a specific focus with players doing a specific job?

I have deselected Pass Into Space and am now testing one or two tweaks. My intent is to have a team which plays confortably with possession (specially in the first and central thirds), but is aggresive and swift attacking (mostly relying in my CB and my DM to start the attacks). I don't want to win every possession battle, but to be more balanced between keeping the ball and being vertical. I tought with Pass Into Space would help me, maybe just a lower tempo and not selecting play out of defence may be an option.

 

35 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

Efficiency will come down to quality of the player crossing it and the ability of the players in the box to get on the end of it.  Obviously the numbers and organization of the defence will play a part, crossing into a packed box with defenders organized will be less effective than when they're running back at there own net and not organized.

I have quality players, Kolarov crossing is 17, Florenzi 15, my backup players are not far away (Barreca is 15, Karsdorp 14). In the box I usually have Dzeko with 1,94m and heading 17 and Schick with 1,86m and heading 14. My feeling is that the team needs more players touching the box during the crossing. And I just can't find a way to do this, so this may be because my lack of runners issue? Usually, in crossings I only have the two STs and the other WB ready to receive the ball.

[summatsupeer]

2 hours ago, marcorigobelli said:

I have deselected Pass Into Space and am now testing one or two tweaks. My intent is to have a team which plays confortably with possession (specially in the first and central thirds), but is aggresive and swift attacking (mostly relying in my CB and my DM to start the attacks). I don't want to win every possession battle, but to be more balanced between keeping the ball and being vertical.

That to me sounds like you need the players to pick and choose when to keep the ball or try something risky, rather than telling them to be risky often (Pass Into Space, higher mentalities etc) or safe often (Retain Possession, lower mentalities etc).

I'd focus on the roles&duties and read the descriptions like herne said to see if that sounds like what you want and fits with the players around him.

2 hours ago, marcorigobelli said:

I tought with Pass Into Space would help me, maybe just a lower tempo and not selecting play out of defence may be an option.

Not saying it can't work, but to me one is "attack space quickly" and the other is saying "play slower" so giving opponents time to get back+organized making it harder for the risky passes to be successful.  Especially combined with very few attack duties attacking space early.

2 hours ago, marcorigobelli said:

I have quality players, Kolarov crossing is 17, Florenzi 15, my backup players are not far away (Barreca is 15, Karsdorp 14). In the box I usually have Dzeko with 1,94m and heading 17 and Schick with 1,86m and heading 14. My feeling is that the team needs more players touching the box during the crossing. And I just can't find a way to do this, so this may be because my lack of runners issue? Usually, in crossings I only have the two STs and the other WB ready to receive the ball.

The crossing attribute is how accurate the cross is and 10/61 is not bad, they still need good mental attributes to pick/choose what and where to put it. Maybe the players in and around the box need to anticipate whats going to happen or find space off the ball better or just occupy defenders to give the big guys more space to be more accurate if they win the header?

[mernild]

I had the Exact same problem as you with my 3-5-2. Never found a solution though.

[westy8chimp]

https://community.sigames.com/topic/432823-pendeleffekt-understanding-pressing-pi/

 

I was going to try a tactical replication of Hoffenheim a few months ago, Nagelsmann is one of my favorite coaches... I just find the TC too restrictive to manage a couple of his key philosophy. 

I know why you have chosen wing back...its the only way to create his attacking 5 man really whilst maintaining the solid defence. 

He doesnt play crossing football..as you detail... The difficulty is keeping the width... But still wanting eitherf a bpd or dlp to play the direct straight pass to the strikers (wbs are Nagelsmann's plan B) 

Have you tried 'exploit the middle' and a dlp with ppms to try killer balls/long range passes? 

The barriers i couldnt get past

1) patient slow build up from the back...to allow wbs to get high up (dlp either uses them as outlet.. Or plays ball before they advance) 

2) impossible on FM... The pendeleffekt off the ball... Where one wb presses high... The opposite wing back slots into a back 4 where the cbs all shift over.